Thrilling, entertaining, amusing.

I speak about the endgame pvp content and there there is no such thing as a "meta". You can really go wild with builds and still give a great contribution, and even be decisive in some situations.
Alas, there are a lot of shallow players who add nothing to the game and blindly follow the "meta builds" which are surely one step futher for what is raw damage output and such.
But your real weapon is cunning and adaptability: it is a real orgam to see players running the usual op settings getting wasted or have their delusions of grandeur spoiled by simply acting and playing in ways they could not foresee.

Dont, be like them, don't be a monkey: be creative.

p00tx wrote: »

So, I just recently made the full switch from XBox to PC, since ZoS has decided to completely ignore their customer base on console. The biggest difference I've noticed between the PC community and the console community is that there is very little competitiveness and looooots of roleplay on PC. The RP community on console is very small and very niche, and they very seldom participate in anything beyond basic veteran content, unless they're buying a skin or title. We're not used to the majority of the community being RPers, and we come with a very different mindset. We compete over literally everything, and our groups are carefully crafted to get the most out of all of the passives the classes offer. We all want high scores and big achievements, and since we don't have CMX or logs or notifiers, we have to go above and beyond what is necessary for completing the content to ensure we get the best results possible, or sometimes just to ensure we can even complete the content at all since we're contending with crippling lag and constant disconnects. Faster kills means less time in content, which means less overall time someone could potentially lag out. It's a culture born of necessity.

A huge number of us are currently making the switch and leaving XBox, so it's going to be interesting to see if we can acclimate to this more relaxed and softer way of doing things. No one way is wrong, it's just different.

I wish I could make the jump. But I don't have a gaming pc and I don't want to remake my two main characters.

Non meta builds don't work in endgame.

Astrid wrote: »

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

Another thing that gets me:

As a tank, we are expected to wear Alkosh - a non tank set, because it applies resistance debuffs to the mobs.

But, we are looked down upon for wearing Dragon's Defilement - an actual tanking set, that gives the same debuffs........

Welcome to the world of supports in trials. Healers wear Martial Knowledge, Z’ens (those two often paired together whilst maintaining a healing rota and meeting proc requirements for both) and Roaring Opportunist for example. Tanks run Alkosh, Powerful Assault, Worm cult in some cases. Thing is with supports in trials - you’re not there to be an undying meat shield as a tank and you’re not there to heal everyone into oblivion even if they’re at 100% with 8 seperate healing skills as a healer. You’re there to be a buff to the group and whatever they need at the time so DPS aren’t forced into sets that stray from the most damage output. Selfish builds aren’t really any use in 12 man content as you’re the only one benefitting from it. Sadly that’s the outlook but I must admit adjusting to these sets and circumstances you’re put into just improves you as a player. It’s challenging and fun.

No, its not fun.

I find no enjoyment from being a cookie cutter copy paste build that everyone else runs with 0 aspects of personalization.

As I've said earlier in this thread, if that's the case the ZOS should just remove classes and builds altogether and just have everyone select "tank", "stam dps", "mag dps", and "healer" characters that come pre-equipped and pre-loaded with all the singular skills and sets that those roles wear.

As it is, the game offers much choice for variety, and I will continue to personalize and individualize my builds

You talk about selfish builds, but everything you just said is all about dps running selfish builds.

And that's really what this is all about. DPS want to all wear selfish builds, have 0 utility what so ever, and just treat trials as live action parses. So they force us tanks and healers to wear all the sets and use all the slotted abilities that they don't want to, but then they want to whine and cry and wonder why there are no tanks or healers in the game to group up with.

I can tell you this: I never have and never will run with any of those tank sets you listed, and nobody in my guilds run those tank or healer sets. Yet, we still routinely clear content, and including vet.

DPS continue to dictate to us how we play our own characters, all while telling us that we aren't needed ("you don't even need a tank and healer in dungeons, you can just clear it with 4 dps"), but still routinely blame us first when things go wrong, and then whine that there's none left to group with for group content.

I can't tell you how many times I have been with a dps that thinks he's a badass because he can parse 90k dps, but is *always* the first one dead in a boss fight and holds the group back from proceeding because they have no actual utility or survivability because they want to pass that off on tanks and healers for their own selfish builds.

You say it's "challenging and fun", but tbh, when the time comes that I'm done with this game, right at the top of the list is going to be dictated to by others how to build my own characters.

karekiz wrote: »

Non meta builds don't work in endgame.

My non-meta builds that work in end game disagree.

Conduit0 wrote: »

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

Conduit0 wrote: »

I really don't understand this attitude of wanting to participate in content that requires a high degree of team cooperation and coordination but not wanting to be a team player. It's like wanting to play football but showing up wearing hockey gear and getting mad when you're told you can't bring your stick and skates onto the field.

Nope, incorrect assessment of what's being said all the way around.

The point is that there is more than one way to be a team player, outside of running only Alkosh and Galenwe.

Just like football teams have different ways of winning games, passing the football, running the football, playing strong defense, having a strong pass rush.

Telling tanks to wear DPS sets and that they can *only* be successful with sets like Alkosh and Galenwe is like saying the only way to win a football game is by only ever running the ball.

There are multiple ways to work together as a team in football to win games, just as there are multiple ways to work together in trials to complete them.

Also, an understanding of mechanics is 1000x more important than sets. If you don't understand the mechanics, then no amount of meta gear is going to carry you through, and if you do understand the mechanics, you don't need meta gear to defeat them.

It's not my fault that DPS want to treat trials like live action parses and pass off every other responsibility off on tanks and healers, but I will not allow DPS to dictate to me how I play my own characters.

Funny thing is, those same dps that try to dictate *my* character are usually the ones with the shortcomings holding the group back from completing content.

My non-meta builds have *never* held my groups back from content (a lack of understanding of mechanics has, tho, many times as I was still learning and still am), but I have definitely been held back by low performing DPS that like to tell everyone else how to play but can't carry their own weight.

Got it, not only do you not want to change to suit the team, you demand the team change to suit you. So even worse than what I said before.

lol where did you even remotely get that? Now you're just seeing what you want to see.

I literally could not care less what my group wears or how they build. Their builds are not my responsibility. My responsibility is to do my job. I roll with a guild that has all sorts of builds. We all do our jobs and we all clear our content. I wouldn't tell anyone else how to build any more than I want them telling me how to build.

newtinmpls wrote: »

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

Telling tanks to wear DPS sets and that they can *only* be successful with sets like Alkosh and Galenwe is like saying the only way to win a football game is by only ever running the ball.

I love this metaphor all the more because I was raised in Minnesota as a die-hard fan of the Vikings passing game led by Fran Tarkenton

I can respect that.

I'm a 49ers fan, sorry about January 😪

I'm too young to have seen Fran Tarkenton, but I know he was Steve Young and Russell Wilson before they were.

Paramedicus wrote: »

the problem with "off-meta" crowd is that you will find the best and the worst players among them.

Good players, with deeper knowledge of the game, know where 'meta' works (and where it don't) and they adapt accordingly. They will have few builds for different occasions (some of them off meta).

But there gonna be many bad non meta players (most of them probably) that just want to be hipster 2x bow tank.


And ofc there is 'middle group', in which people insist in using alcast's builds in every content

Are you suggesting that bad players don't fill the meta ranks as well?

I've been grouped with people who talk big about cranking out 90k dps, but the hold the group back because they are constantly dead and having to be rezzed, pulling even more dps away from the bosses.

In my experience, it's usually those who are loudest about their meta builds and more demanding of everyone else to run specific ways that are the worst players that are far more detrimental to the group than helpful. I can't tell you how many times I've had someone bragging about their parses, but the minute they leave we are able to successfully 3 man the content because we don't have to keep rezzing the meta crutch player.

There's plenty of bad meta players too.

But honestly, in my experiences, the off-meta players are at least much funner players to group and do content with. At least with them we can all have a good time kicking back with a drink and just making the best of our trial and dungeon runs. Sometimes we wipe, more often than not we clear, but everyone had a good time.

I'd rather have a good, fun time adventuring through trials with a bunch of off meta players, and just enjoying the game, than to have a max-efficiency speed run with a bunch of leaderboard pushers who take the game and everyone's builds way too seriously and treat it like a job instead of a game designed to be fun.

Paramedicus wrote: »

i see your point but i think you are bit biased.

I know that people who don't really understand game too deeply and just copy latest meta trial builds can be annoying (because of their ignorance + sense of infallibility ). But beside being victims of Dunning–Kruger effect, they aren't the worst. When I mean 'the worst' I see guy who just jumps around and uses light attacks only (I met those few times.. is there some off-meta guide which tells you to do it specifically?) or guy who must be light armor stamDK tank, because he needs to feel unqique

That's not "off-meta", that's people that just don't understand how to play the game. And there are no more "off-meta" people doing that than people who blindly copy Alcast without understanding the logic behind it.

Paramedicus wrote: »

Ok i went too far with those examples :>

But there are ppl in non meta crowd that will wear anything but meta just to feel unique or because they dont want to be flexible ie selfish tank in competent team that would really benefit from more support from said tank or healer that overheals on purpose (because nObOdY GoNnA tELL hIM hOW to PLaY HiS GaMe) or ppl who make builds that are inflexible (depending entirely on fixed gear serup) or bearly reliable, like tanks lacking proper CC, using just ice staff as ranged taunt (tru stories) or that are unable to survive/sustain on their own for longer than 30s.

So there bad players in both groups, just they are annoying in different ways : p

There are, and I've played with both of them. But I'll say this - I've had far more problems with the rigid "meta or bust" power gamers that expect everything from their group but cant carry their own weight than I have with the handful of people I've played that purposefully build as inefficiently as possible to be a hipster or whatever.

All I am saying is that there is more than 1 way for a tank (or healer, I just use tanks as my main example because that's what I mainly play) to support their team other than only ever wearing Alkosh / Galenwe / Thurvokun. I would even argue that a "selfish tank" can be beneficial to a point because regardless of what the DPS say, a tank's #1 priority is to stay alive and hold aggro. The tank is not helping the group at all if they are dead (just as dps aren't helping their group when their 90k output is dropped to 0 because they are dead).

I'd rather have a DPS that parses 30k consistently because they can stay alive, than someone who parses 90k but doesnt know how to maintain survivability. When I am not tanking, I would rather have a selfish tank that can keep himself alive and hold aggro than have someone who may be compromising that survivability to buff me. That buff to me means nothing when the tank is dead.

Generally, I actually find that the most effective builds are a good mix between "selfish" tank and "group utility" tank, and that's typically what mine are.

But I also very strongly believe that there can be far more to group utility than Alkosh and Galenwe.

I can roll Akaviri Dragonguard for higher uptime on Warhorn and Major Vulnerability. I can roll Grave Guardian or Brands Of Imperium to give my group extra resistances or damage mitigation. I've used Sellestrix for additional CC. Those are only but a few of the things I have done on my own tanks, with success at endgame level.

Some guilds might not let me tank for them in those setups, and that's fine. I don't want to tank for those guilds anyways. I have *never* had a fun experience playing *any* game with power gamers like that, and ESO has been no different. But I *do* have a guild that I tank for in setups like that, because our objective is to play and have fun, not power gaming to max efficiency, and I do have some of the "meta" sets just in case, but I find I never need to use them because either 1. My group doesnt understand the mechanics and no amount of meta sets can make up for that or 2. My group does know the mechanics and knows how to complete the content regardless of those minor group buffs.

Never once in all my time playing this game, with PUGs, various guilds, or what have you, has gear choice been the determining factor one way or another between a clear or a wipe. It has virtually always come down to understanding the mechanics and executing.

Milli_Rabbit wrote: »

It kind of depends. The question is more can the off meta build meet the needs of the group? For example, a tank running battalion defender or plague doctor instead of alkosh is not as strong for group buffs, but if it keeps you alive, it might be good for your team. For dps, the question is much more simple. Can you do x thousand damage/second? No one cares what you are wearing in that case as long as you meet the parse minimum.

For healers and tanks, there are a variety of sets you can choose from to help the team. There are meta set ups, but many other set ups have their uses.

The key is it doesn't have to be meta, but non-meta is often harder to pull off. If the max deeps of the meta set up is 90k, and the max deeps of an off meta set up is 75k, then it will be much harder to hit a 60k minimum parse with the 75k set up. You have less room for error with off meta set ups, essentially.

Meta mean copycat builds from youtune content creator who try to tell other players how they need to complete content.

I'm here to tell you that you can complete any endgame content without any of the copycat builds or gewr requirements by the egos in ESO.

Our guilds complete vet endgame content with ease as a non meta guild. You can complete all endgame content without tanks wearing buff sets and without healers wearing buff sets. And when I say complete endgame content, I mean it takes less than 1hr to complete with zero wipes and everyone enjoys there own builds and appreciate the other team members for there contributio (Find a guild that does not require sets. Find a guild that promote member theorycrafting).

Please enjoy the game and take content creators with a grain of salt. Fail miserably with your builds so you learn on your own what works and what doesnt. Then you will understand the game better if you dont depend on content creators from youtube. Resource them only.

You didnt pay for the game to have some "A Hole" to tell you how to play the game.

These are some sets you dont need to complete content endgame content:

Olrime
Spell Power Cure
Alkosh
Ebon
Roaring Opportunist

If a guild requires you to wear this stuff and your the type who wants to execute your own theorycraft.....

"Run, You run your arse off"

Paramedicus wrote: »

Ok i went too far with those examples :>

But there are ppl in non meta crowd that will wear anything but meta just to feel unique or because they dont want to be flexible ie selfish tank in competent team that would really benefit from more support from said tank or healer that overheals on purpose (because nObOdY GoNnA tELL hIM hOW to PLaY HiS GaMe) or ppl who make builds that are inflexible (depending entirely on fixed gear serup) or bearly reliable, like tanks lacking proper CC, using just ice staff as ranged taunt (tru stories) or that are unable to survive/sustain on their own for longer than 30s.

So there bad players in both groups, just they are annoying in different ways : p

Or maybe the latest meta dont fit their play style, or maybe its because they have something that is actually better then meta? Atleast, that is my personal reasons 😉 (PvP player) Besides, testing and getting to know all the possibilities, is what makes you a good player, and its fun and interesting, much more fun then copy paste alcast builds 😉

Copypaste builds are antithetical to this game's essence and those who rely on them should be mocked by friends and foes alike.

But if i was prone to easy, uncorrect judgements i would now tell you to obscure sites like Alcast's, but truth is that siteslike that one and its builds are... like drugs: the real problem dwells in those who uses them, in their shallowness.