Why did Zenimax make fixed skilltrees?

BlueRaven · July 2020

stefan.gustavsonb16_ESO wrote: »

I won't defend a "classless" option in an MMO -- it would indeed make balancing a nightmare and make everyone who is chasing the meta run the exact same build. I just want to make it clear that neither Morrowind nor Oblivion had "hard" classes. They showed you some recommendations in the character setup, but they could all be completely ignored in favor of your own selection of skill lines and perks. Playing the "meta" in those games to get the most out of your character was all about breaking free of those molds and designing your own "class". Skyrim just made this the default.

Fallout 76 is classless. If you were to ask what the best build is to five people you will get five different answers.

Some will say junkies, others bloody. Some say a “fixer” build, others will say heavy weapons, and still others will say melee. Power armor? Some say yes, others no.

Yes there are some underperforming builds, but there is no one true “meta”.

Dusk_Coven · July 2020

So that they can sell you unlocked skill trees in the Crown Store.
Once you've unlocked, say, Fighter's Guild to 10 on any toon, you can buy it on your brand-new re-rolled under-50 BG toon and get the ultimate right away
with skill points you also got from the Crown Store thanks to having unlocked skyshards achievements in various zones on another toon.

eKsDee · July 2020

Wilddog73 wrote: »

The secret world was already terrible though.

Besides, skyrim isn't known for players only making certain builds. Neither was Ultima online.

Stealth archer build would like to know your location.

CMDR_Un1k0rn · July 2020

The best RPGs have classes.

It just works. And yes that was intentional.

eKsDee wrote: »

Wilddog73 wrote: »

The secret world was already terrible though.

Besides, skyrim isn't known for players only making certain builds. Neither was Ultima online.

Stealth archer build would like to know your location.

Popular on YouTube, sure.

Useless if you want to play the game in a different manner to that.

Stealth Archer was for power-gaming, which makes no sense in a singleplayer TES game.

I always played various takes on frontline fighters. Sometimes with a bow but rest assured, I am not a big user of stealth.

vilio11 · July 2020

stefan.gustavsonb16_ESO wrote: »

I won't defend a "classless" option in an MMO -- it would indeed make balancing a nightmare and make everyone who is chasing the meta run the exact same build. I just want to make it clear that neither Morrowind nor Oblivion had "hard" classes. They showed you some recommendations in the character setup, but they could all be completely ignored in favor of your own selection of skill lines and perks. Playing the "meta" in those games to get the most out of your character was all about breaking free of those molds and designing your own "class". Skyrim just made this the default.

Classless system on theory is better. You play how you want. The problem is that there are optimal builds and the game is full with Arcane warriors or Arcane sneaky archers.

For me the best system is a system with open classes or loosely based classes.

amm7sb14_ESO · July 2020

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

Because it's an MMO based on Elder Scrolls, not an Elder Scrolls game that happens to have lots of players?

(also, trying to balance MMO content for a collection of defined classes is bad enough. Trying to design & balance it for a totally freeform min/max/powergaming mess? That would be awful.)

Other MMO's have done it, and done it a lot closer to the spirit of Elder Scrolls than ESO does.

Also, let's not act like this game has any semblance of balance. There is literally 1 build per role that everyone is expected to adhere to if they want to play in endgame content, any and everything else is thoroughly rejected.

You can call it an MMO as an excuse for the lack of balance or variety all you want, but the truth is, this is an ELDER SCROLLS game in name, but what we have in practice is a game where if I'm not rolling some combination of Galenwe / Yolnakhriin / Alkosh with Thurvokin / Lord Warden, then there is no place for me in end game content. That is absolutely ridiculous, and to me, that is bad game design.

*Tank examples used because I main a tank

The_Drop_Bear · July 2020

BigBragg wrote: »

ESO actually started development prior to Skyrim. Also they use them as tools to reward certain aspects of the game. Want the goodies? Then you need to participate in the content.

It didn't start development prior to Skyrim, but it did start before Skyrim was released

xaraan · July 2020

Well, as some have said, this is ESO, not Skyrim Online. And a MMO requires a very different way of working to balance things than a single player game (same reason we have inventory limits for storage, it's not just about servers, it's about how allowing players to literally save everything effects the in game economy). Same applies here, keeping skills tied to classes is a way to control balance and I can't imagine how out of balance the game would be if we just had everyone picking the same group of skills b/c that's what every build video said was the best. Not saying it can't work, but the game would be so different to what it is now, any visions we have of what you might wish you could build in a character wouldn't exist.

josiahva · July 2020

Ryuvain wrote: »

I do miss finding spells on your own. Getting something cool out of RNG and immediately testing it out. Feels like that part of adventuring is missing.

One of my favorite RPGs ever(not a MMO though) was Saga Frontier for the original playstation. It was a bad storyline(s) and wasn't very good in many ways, but the reason I liked it was that you developed skills/spells in a semi-random fashion. Say that you equipped a sword to whatever character and started attacking with it...eventually a lightbulb icon would go off above your head and you would improvise a new skill with it, something like "dual slash" or "power stab" or whatever they were calling the skills. What was interesting about it is that some skills were far rarer than others to develop, based on the power level. I think some also had others as prerequisites. What this led to was if you had 2 sword wielders in your party, you would have 2 characters with vastly different skills based on the same weapon, it made for very strategic party selection depending on what you were facing. You could use a similar system in a MMO if you combined it with a skill tree(developing skill A locks you out of skill

so you dont end up with everyone having the same skills over a long period of time. Of course RNG like this would likely be frowned upon by a lot of people, but it reflects individual skill in the real world pretty well....it would also give people reason to make many different characters, always looking to build a "perfect" character with a particular set of skills.(I suppose you wouldn't have to make a new character each time, but you would have to continually reset and grind skill trees)

Chilly-McFreeze · July 2020

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

Because it's an MMO based on Elder Scrolls, not an Elder Scrolls game that happens to have lots of players?

(also, trying to balance MMO content for a collection of defined classes is bad enough. Trying to design & balance it for a totally freeform min/max/powergaming mess? That would be awful.)

Other MMO's have done it, and done it a lot closer to the spirit of Elder Scrolls than ESO does.

Also, let's not act like this game has any semblance of balance. There is literally 1 build per role that everyone is expected to adhere to if they want to play in endgame content, any and everything else is thoroughly rejected.

You can call it an MMO as an excuse for the lack of balance or variety all you want, but the truth is, this is an ELDER SCROLLS game in name, but what we have in practice is a game where if I'm not rolling some combination of Galenwe / Yolnakhriin / Alkosh with Thurvokin / Lord Warden, then there is no place for me in end game content. That is absolutely ridiculous, and to me, that is bad game design.

*Tank examples used because I main a tank

And you think players will abandon sets/ Build requirements just bc you couls choose from more skill Lines? If Anything a single meta build for each role would form. At least you have different builds for each class now

eKsDee · July 2020

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

The best RPGs have classes.

It just works. And yes that was intentional.

eKsDee wrote: »

Wilddog73 wrote: »

The secret world was already terrible though.

Besides, skyrim isn't known for players only making certain builds. Neither was Ultima online.

Stealth archer build would like to know your location.

Popular on YouTube, sure.

Useless if you want to play the game in a different manner to that.

Stealth Archer was for power-gaming, which makes no sense in a singleplayer TES game.

I always played various takes on frontline fighters. Sometimes with a bow but rest assured, I am not a big user of stealth.

It's literally a well known meme-y build within the Skyrim community, because of how effective it is against the moronic AI, and how easy it is to slip into it as any other sort of build. Yes, there are numerous other types of builds that can work just as well as stealth archer, but to say that Skyrim isn't known for players only making certain builds goes to show that you (or the OP in this case) really haven't looked at the online Skyrim community before, because stealth archer is one of the most well known meme-y builds that Skyrim has to offer.

HappyLittleTree · July 2020

Personal opinion... The skill system in Skyrim sucked.

L_Nici · July 2020

I personally like it more in ESO than in Skyrim. In Skyrim you take a sword and spam Light or heavy attacks, since you can't do more than that. I really like the System based on Skills in ESO and would be pretty sad if that would leave the Elder Scrolls entirely. And having fixed Skilllines is part of the enjoyment there, you have to build with what you get by choosing your class or weapon, wouldn't make much sense to use a Destroult on a 2h Sword, or using Leap on a NB.

Also you have basically access to everything besides the other class skills, you just need to pick the right weapon for it or join some guilds.

Azuramoonstar · July 2020

Wilddog73 wrote: »

I liked it better when I could pick and choose skills in skyrim.

The elder scrolls existed prior to skyrim, and to be frank skyrim's set up is weaker the previous iterations. It limited your play as ANYTHING leveled you up so you had to make sure you had the weapon, armor, spells you wanted or you ended up out leveling your other skills and making the world harder due to enemy scaling.

In every other elder scrolls you picked a class, or created one by picking skills. You could level them well up, but only chosen skills leveled you.

MMo work a bit differently, but of the mmo i played ESO is pretty free form.

idk · July 2020

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

Because it's an MMO based on Elder Scrolls, not an Elder Scrolls game that happens to have lots of players?

(also, trying to balance MMO content for a collection of defined classes is bad enough. Trying to design & balance it for a totally freeform min/max/powergaming mess? That would be awful.)

Other MMO's have done it, and done it a lot closer to the spirit of Elder Scrolls than ESO does.

Also, let's not act like this game has any semblance of balance. There is literally 1 build per role that everyone is expected to adhere to if they want to play in endgame content, any and everything else is thoroughly rejected.

You can call it an MMO as an excuse for the lack of balance or variety all you want, but the truth is, this is an ELDER SCROLLS game in name, but what we have in practice is a game where if I'm not rolling some combination of Galenwe / Yolnakhriin / Alkosh with Thurvokin / Lord Warden, then there is no place for me in end game content. That is absolutely ridiculous, and to me, that is bad game design.

*Tank examples used because I main a tank

And you think players will abandon sets/ Build requirements just bc you couls choose from more skill Lines? If Anything a single meta build for each role would form. At least you have different builds for each class now

Very true. We already have a lack of diversity with builds in the game and having all skills available to everyone would eliminate much of the diversity there is.

amm7sb14_ESO · July 2020

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

The best RPGs have classes.

Disagree 100%

Classes are arbitrary restrictions that limit your ability to play your own character in your own way.

The best RPG's I've ever played are TES. Classless. (Yes they have pre-made classes, but otherwise you can build your character however you want with little to no restrictions)

The best MMO I've ever played was Star Wars Galaxies. Classless.

The fact that there are pre-made classes in this game in the first place completely run contrary to Elder Scrolls design foundation. I mean in this game you can't even successfully mix melee weapons and magic...

The argument of "it's an MMO, it can't be classless" is a copout, because MMO's in the past have successfully implemented classless systems.

"It's an MMO" translates to "it is an MMO released post-WOW where developers have lost creativity in design to follow a single formulaic game build that all MMO's now follow"

Because what MMO's look like now is not what they have always looked like.

Chilly-McFreeze · July 2020

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

I mean in this game you can't even successfully mix melee weapons and magic...

Hu?
Many people do it. I see a *** of mag toons running snb every time I go to cyrodiil.
Even hybrids can be viable there and in pve (excluding hardest endgame content).

One could even argue that summoning bound armaments, crystal weapons, holy light spears etc. via stamina is kinda magic. Even tho it's a wash when you take running etc. into consideration.

But tbh I always saw this stam/mag dichotomy as a cheap shortcut to increase the class count.

I agree on your sentiment that fixed classes are against established TES ways. Everything else, if RPGs are better off without them, is up for debate. E.G. I'd fear a meta-meta for stamdd, magdd etc. if they'd lift class restrictions.

amm7sb14_ESO · July 2020

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

I mean in this game you can't even successfully mix melee weapons and magic...

Hu?
Many people do it. I see a *** of mag toons running snb every time I go to cyrodiil.
Even hybrids can be viable there and in pve (excluding hardest endgame content).

One could even argue that summoning bound armaments, crystal weapons, holy light spears etc. via stamina is kinda magic. Even tho it's a wash when you take running etc. into consideration.

But tbh I always saw this stam/mag dichotomy as a cheap shortcut to increase the class count.

I agree on your sentiment that fixed classes are against established TES ways. Everything else, if RPGs are better off without them, is up for debate. E.G. I'd fear a meta-meta for stamdd, magdd etc. if they'd lift class restrictions.

Hybrids are viable for overland content, or for normal level dungeons and possibly trials, sure.

But mag chars using dual wield for instance, wouldn't be successful in vet DLC content. For 1, you couldn't use your weapon abilities because it scales off the wrong resource. It doesn't restore that resource either - I guess unless you put on a mag recovery enchantment.

Or 2, if you tried to mix stam and mag, you would be decreasing the dps output of both, and be unable to put out enough damage to be successful in vet dungeons or trials.

PVP is also different. They run the 1h / shield for their defensive back bar. But you don't see much dual wielding from a mag user.

Stx · July 2020

This game would have been so much cooler if you could choose your skill trees to specialize in instead of being pigeonholed into specific class trees like holy spears or melee dragon fire mage...

They wouldnt even have needed to change their system much. Just replace class trees with traditional elder scrolls skill trees.

amm7sb14_ESO · July 2020

Stx wrote: »

This game would have been so much cooler if you could choose your skill trees to specialize in instead of being pigeonholed into specific class trees like holy spears or melee dragon fire mage...

They wouldnt even have needed to change their system much. Just replace class trees with traditional elder scrolls skill trees.

That's what I was expecting from an Elder Scrolls MMO.

It might not be able to be as free form as a single player TES game, but I feel like something like that would be closer to the spirit of the IP.

kaisernick · July 2020

Ah yes Skyrims system the one i dispise and mod into oblivion every time.

Thank god zeni didnt follow suit.

GrumpyDuckling · July 2020

idk wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

Because it's an MMO based on Elder Scrolls, not an Elder Scrolls game that happens to have lots of players?

(also, trying to balance MMO content for a collection of defined classes is bad enough. Trying to design & balance it for a totally freeform min/max/powergaming mess? That would be awful.)

Other MMO's have done it, and done it a lot closer to the spirit of Elder Scrolls than ESO does.

Also, let's not act like this game has any semblance of balance. There is literally 1 build per role that everyone is expected to adhere to if they want to play in endgame content, any and everything else is thoroughly rejected.

You can call it an MMO as an excuse for the lack of balance or variety all you want, but the truth is, this is an ELDER SCROLLS game in name, but what we have in practice is a game where if I'm not rolling some combination of Galenwe / Yolnakhriin / Alkosh with Thurvokin / Lord Warden, then there is no place for me in end game content. That is absolutely ridiculous, and to me, that is bad game design.

*Tank examples used because I main a tank

And you think players will abandon sets/ Build requirements just bc you couls choose from more skill Lines? If Anything a single meta build for each role would form. At least you have different builds for each class now

Very true. We already have a lack of diversity with builds in the game and having all skills available to everyone would eliminate much of the diversity there is.

I disagree. The lack of diversity is spearheaded by a combat system that narrowly pushes players into a stamina/magicka divide. Once a player starts engaging in tougher content, that stamina/magicka divide becomes even more unforgiving as it encourages many players to either avoid skills on the other side of the divide, or relegate them to simple utility (if even applicable).

If all skills were to ever be made available, then I hope it would coincide with a move away from the stamina/magicka divide, and a move towards a direction that wouldn't so harshly discourage builds that want to more effectively utilize a wider array of skills and styles of play on a single character.

zaria · July 2020

Azuramoonstar wrote: »

Wilddog73 wrote: »

I liked it better when I could pick and choose skills in skyrim.

The elder scrolls existed prior to skyrim, and to be frank skyrim's set up is weaker the previous iterations. It limited your play as ANYTHING leveled you up so you had to make sure you had the weapon, armor, spells you wanted or you ended up out leveling your other skills and making the world harder due to enemy scaling.

In every other elder scrolls you picked a class, or created one by picking skills. You could level them well up, but only chosen skills leveled you.

MMo work a bit differently, but of the mmo i played ESO is pretty free form.

This is not entirely correct, Oblivion had the select correct skills to level up and do so in an planned manner or you nerfed yourself. Same in Morrowind but Morrowind had more skills unlimited training and end game was easy outside the expansions.
But yes the older games had an on paper better system but Oblivion with 3 skills for an attribute showed the system weakness.

And as you say MMO works differently, none of the old games was anything near balanced, spell crafting in old games and crafting in Skyrim was off the table. With illusion you could make an control creature who made goblin warlords permanent hostile to the goblin faction

Popcorn time. Or one shooting mammoths in Skyrim.
Morrowind fortify intelligence potions

idk · July 2020

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

Because it's an MMO based on Elder Scrolls, not an Elder Scrolls game that happens to have lots of players?

(also, trying to balance MMO content for a collection of defined classes is bad enough. Trying to design & balance it for a totally freeform min/max/powergaming mess? That would be awful.)

Other MMO's have done it, and done it a lot closer to the spirit of Elder Scrolls than ESO does.

Also, let's not act like this game has any semblance of balance. There is literally 1 build per role that everyone is expected to adhere to if they want to play in endgame content, any and everything else is thoroughly rejected.

You can call it an MMO as an excuse for the lack of balance or variety all you want, but the truth is, this is an ELDER SCROLLS game in name, but what we have in practice is a game where if I'm not rolling some combination of Galenwe / Yolnakhriin / Alkosh with Thurvokin / Lord Warden, then there is no place for me in end game content. That is absolutely ridiculous, and to me, that is bad game design.

*Tank examples used because I main a tank

And you think players will abandon sets/ Build requirements just bc you couls choose from more skill Lines? If Anything a single meta build for each role would form. At least you have different builds for each class now

Very true. We already have a lack of diversity with builds in the game and having all skills available to everyone would eliminate much of the diversity there is.

I disagree. The lack of diversity is spearheaded by a combat system that narrowly pushes players into a stamina/magicka divide. Once a player starts engaging in tougher content, that stamina/magicka divide becomes even more unforgiving as it encourages many players to either avoid skills on the other side of the divide, or relegate them to simple utility (if even applicable).

If all skills were to ever be made available, then I hope it would coincide with a move away from the stamina/magicka divide, and a move towards a direction that wouldn't so harshly discourage builds that want to more effectively utilize a wider array of skills and styles of play on a single character.

It seems you do agree. Since the meta builds in ESO, like every MMORPG, is based on what puts out the most damage, we tend to use a lot of the same skills. That is why there is very little diversity at the top end outside of class skills that are used. This is also what I stated, that is what I was agreeing to, that the little diversity we have now would be lost if it were not for the small ammount class skills contribute to the top builds.

Stx · July 2020

If they actually balanced skills better, then there would be more build diversity. That would also be true of a classless system as well.

Also if they added more skills to the game then build diversity would increase as well... when you literally have a handful of class skills, one guild skill line and whatever weapon skills you have equipped, it's hard to get real diverse with builds.

However... if you had 30 skill trees to choose from, now we're talking

amm7sb14_ESO · July 2020

All I know is that all build guides tell you to run the same exact skills and run the same exact sets and run the same exact traits and enchants and the same exact food and pots, and the same exact attribute distribution, and tbh that makes the game so bland and boring to be stuck in that same setup as everyone else.

Rukia541 · July 2020

BlueRaven wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Wilddog73 wrote: »

I liked it better when I could pick and choose skills in skyrim.

MMORPGs work differently than single-player games, they must.

That feels like a bit of a cop out reply. Just because it is a mmo, does not mean classes or limited abilities are required.

Fallout 76 is a mmo and is classless. Yet players can make healing, tanking, and dps type builds. Plus they have a variety of ways each can be done.

In ESO they tried to make all classes do all things, and tried to make race choices multi functional as well. But they consistently fail at it.

If they had a system more like Skyrim’s they would not be in this mess.

76 is also the buggiest piece of crap game ever released in history so I wouldn't be using it as an example for anything good or sensible. Its not an MMO either, it is simply multiplayer.. hell its hardly even an rpg lol.

Name another MMO that does freedom of choice and RP aspects better than ESO and don't name some 20 year old game that no one plays anymore.

kargen27 · July 2020

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

So that they can sell you unlocked skill trees in the Crown Store.
Once you've unlocked, say, Fighter's Guild to 10 on any toon, you can buy it on your brand-new re-rolled under-50 BG toon and get the ultimate right away
with skill points you also got from the Crown Store thanks to having unlocked skyshards achievements in various zones on another toon.

If the crown store had been here from the beginning then maybe you would have a point. In my opinion not much of one though as there is an alternative to getting skill trees from the crown store. It is called playing the game.

Aznarb · July 2020

1 - That how the game is, deal with it or find another one who fit you better.
2 - It's not a Solo-RPG
3 - It's not skyrim

I love how their is always these people who come and want to change the whole game to fit their selfish desire.

kargen27 · July 2020

"Moving away from the stamina/magicka divide and having all skills available to everyone provides a greater variety of options for players to choose from."

No what it does is make it so choices do not matter. When you start a character you have a multitude of choices. Those choices dictate what future choices will be available to you. That is character development and needs to be left in the game. Getting rid of stamina and magicka only serves to take away choices that have meaning. Doesn't add choices at all.