NoCP Nightblade needs some love - Replace gank with brawler

Metemsycosis · July 2020

Why is brawling "healthier" for the game? You say it as a matter of fact when it is a matter of opinion, and I dont agree with you.

erio · July 2020

Metemsycosis wrote: »

Why is brawling "healthier" for the game? You say it as a matter of fact when it is a matter of opinion, and I dont agree with you.

Sorry but sitting in a corner and just spamming snipe and silver shards with 1 hp cause of vamp, and then running away and hiding for 20 seconds for stamina and health isnt good for a bg. Not for your teammates, not for the players who (if decent shrug it off like its nothing) or just get zeroed in .5 seconds cause of lag and dysnc. Its pretty factual. Its a lowskill gameplay loop, that isnt healthy for you or those around you.

erio · July 2020

Metemsycosis wrote: »

Why is brawling "healthier" for the game? You say it as a matter of fact when it is a matter of opinion, and I dont agree with you.

I wonder why, when you get a team of mostly nbs, your team will just quit lmao

Langeston · July 2020

erio wrote: »

Metemsycosis wrote: »

Why is brawling "healthier" for the game? You say it as a matter of fact when it is a matter of opinion, and I dont agree with you.

I wonder why, when you get a team of mostly nbs, your team will just quit lmao

This isn't really a mystery — ZOS has nerfed the class into the ground to the point that they're non-viable in BGs for the majority of players. Unless you're in a high MMR match (and the MMR system is actually working) a team 4 NBs will be fairly harmless compared a team consisting 4 of any other class.

Metemsycosis · July 2020

erio wrote: »

Metemsycosis wrote: »

Why is brawling "healthier" for the game? You say it as a matter of fact when it is a matter of opinion, and I dont agree with you.

Sorry but sitting in a corner and just spamming snipe and silver shards with 1 hp cause of vamp, and then running away and hiding for 20 seconds for stamina and health isnt good for a bg. Not for your teammates, not for the players who (if decent shrug it off like its nothing) or just get zeroed in .5 seconds cause of lag and dysnc. Its pretty factual. Its a lowskill gameplay loop, that isnt healthy for you or those around you.

You're oversimplifying based on your experience. A skilled player will be skilled no matter the build they choose.

Imo if your snipers were more tactical you'd always be heavily-focusing priority targets or targeting those your melee fighters are engaging.

I do agree nbs are nerfed but they're also still very good imo. Adaptation is needed. High health recovery, high base resistance, Letting go of invisibility-cloak, etc.

Tbh bgs don't seem easy for anyone save maybe magsorcs imo

Vermintide · July 2020

It doesn't matter how skilled you are, if you wind up in a mode like Chaosball and you can't hold the ball for more than 5 seconds, you're not going to win. If you can't stick on an objective in a flag based game mode, you aren't going to win. Deathmatch maybe they can hold their own, but not in a fun or entertaining way.

You perhaps misunderstand the term brawler. We're not talking about a nightblade who stands there and facetanks templars and DKs (although it would also be more fun if that too was possible). In the best brawler builds, stealth and shadow image was still used strategically. What brawler means in NB context is that they didn't simply disengage from a fight if they didn't immediately burst the enemy down. They had the sustain to outmanoeuvre and beat other classes 1-on-1 without simply ganking. That simply isn't true any more.

When the best NB builds are only possible in CP, non-stealth, use heavy armour, and rely on tripots... You know something is majorly wrong. That's a class entirely divorced from its identity.

Metemsycosis · July 2020

Yeah i think i understand it well enough. That's why I said drop invis and in prior threads advocated shade.

Your post didn't say whether dark cloak was enough with high health recovery to stay in range of a flag, and survive

And in chaos ball thats a feeding frenzy, at least for me. My best strategy is to find a high place and draining shot someone off a ledge or hide under an overpass to make use of people trotting into you.

Idk. Sometimes i don't think it's build but rather strategy giving people issues.

Vermintide · July 2020

You misunderstand again. I'm saying NB shouldn't need to drop invisibility. Dark cloak builds can be very tanky yes- But that's not how the class should play. The change to dark cloak was a bad, unnecessary change IMO. There were already non-stealth tanky builds before they changed dark cloak. The sap tank was much more fun, and it fit the class identity better. In those builds, players would drop stealth just to free up another bar slot, not because they were forced to choose a heal instead.

But again, that's not even the "brawler" nightblade I'm talking about. I'm not talking about a face-tanking high recovery nightblade, I'm talking about the agile, high mobility duellist magblade. It had just enough survivability that you'd stay alive until your burst window was open, but if you made a mistake you were dead. If you pulled it off though, you could take down nearly anyone. It was great fun and incredibly rewarding.

The only setup I've been doing okay with in BGs now has 3 bar slots purely dedicated to healing, and I've resorted to using shields. That's on top of a defence and sustain set. I have no bar space to even slot RAT, let alone any other utility skills. I have healing spells, the mandatory burst combo skills, and that's all. This class simply doesn't have the tools you need for PVP in its kit any more. There's no flexibility. Most importantly it doesn't feel like the class at all, it just feels like a bad Sorc.

For Cyro I've been prototyping a gank build, and the crazy thing is this- Even with 5 NMA, 5 Spell Strategist, full SD enchants and mundus etc... Totally specced into pure damage, 100%, zero sustain and zero defense- People still laugh off the damage. So what is this class supposed to do, exactly?

Build isn't everything, I agree strategy is important. But the nature of this game means you must optimise your build for your strategy, or you'll be severely handicapped in said strategy. The problem is NB currently lacks the ability to do this.

Stamblades get to rollerblade around stealing kills in BGs, sure, but magblade is on life support right now.

Metemsycosis · July 2020

Not that it matters ive been maining nb since release on console so if I dont get why nubs have issues forgive me.

Also i am a pretty smart guy. Its more likely you weren't clear than I misunderstood. Thanks.

I only mentioned switching to dark cloak as a matter of adapting btw.

Here is an accessible build:

Try 5 necro, 2 will power, 3 ancient grace with malubeth and triglyphs everywhere and see if you cant brawl in that. Start with all recovery and add damage as you get comfortable.

Bet you can brawl.

Metemsycosis · July 2020

I myself have never dropped invis cloak but I haven't complained like y'all have either. I could name build after build i believe are brawler builds and not face tank builds but your mind seems made up.

Imo it's not altogether the class that's the issue but the player too, who wants to make the class something it's not.

If you cant survive with shade and shade alone try another class tbh.

Langeston · July 2020

Metemsycosis wrote: »

Not that it matters ive been maining nb since release on console so if I dont get why nubs have issues forgive me.

Also i am a pretty smart guy. Its more likely you weren't clear than I misunderstood. Thanks.

I only mentioned switching to dark cloak as a matter of adapting btw.

Here is an accessible build:

Try 5 necro, 2 will power, 3 ancient grace with malubeth and see if you cant brawl in that. Start with all recovery and add damage as you get comfortable.

Bet you can brawl.

Why would you use Willpower/Grace instead of Crafty? You give up about 700 mag.

[edit] Also, you give up a good bit of damage on a max mag build by not incorporating Malacath. Personally, I'd go Necro body, 3 Willpower on the front bar, 3 Ancient Grace on the back bar, 1 Malacath, 1 Domi, 1 Swarm Mother for a good balance between damage & shields.

Metemsycosis · July 2020

That's fine too Langeston, just a better version of what I meant. It's a fine brawler build.

Metemsycosis · July 2020

[snip]

Vermintide wrote: »

Metemsycosis wrote: »

Not that it matters ive been maining nb since release on console so if I dont get why nubs have issues forgive me.

[Quoted post was removed]

My issues with the class are not your issues, especially magblade. I felt that its speed was gutted. No over lapping sources of major expedition, which meant a practically very high uptime. It has some decent self-healing (which could be better but not really) and really good damage mitigation. The main combo of the class is still one of the most dangerous in the game. Is sustain an issue when you have siphoning strikes?

[snip]

[Edited to remove Baiting]

Vermintide · July 2020

Metemsycosis wrote: »

Good nb sets.
I felt that its speed was gutted. No over lapping sources of major expedition, which meant a practically very high uptime. It has some decent self-healing (which could be better but not really) and really good damage mitigation. The main combo of the class is still one of the most dangerous in the game. Is sustain an issue when you have siphoning strikes?

So in other words your issues ARE the same issues I was talking about, partially at least. The class has lost its ability to outmanoeuvre an opponent, we still have shade but without speed it's much less effective. I never made any complaints about sustain, sustain is still and always has been very easy. The burst combo is very heavy hitting yes, when you can get it to land. It's EXTREMELY easily dodged by experienced players, and if you have lag to compete with, you might as well not even bother.

Maybe there is some misunderstanding on both sides here but I feel it's more you reading assumptions into what I am saying, than the other way around. [snip]

[Edited to remove Baiting]

erio · July 2020

Metemsycosis wrote: »

erio wrote: »

Metemsycosis wrote: »

Why is brawling "healthier" for the game? You say it as a matter of fact when it is a matter of opinion, and I dont agree with you.

Sorry but sitting in a corner and just spamming snipe and silver shards with 1 hp cause of vamp, and then running away and hiding for 20 seconds for stamina and health isnt good for a bg. Not for your teammates, not for the players who (if decent shrug it off like its nothing) or just get zeroed in .5 seconds cause of lag and dysnc. Its pretty factual. Its a lowskill gameplay loop, that isnt healthy for you or those around you.

You're oversimplifying based on your experience. A skilled player will be skilled no matter the build they choose.

Imo if your snipers were more tactical you'd always be heavily-focusing priority targets or targeting those your melee fighters are engaging.

I do agree nbs are nerfed but they're also still very good imo. Adaptation is needed. High health recovery, high base resistance, Letting go of invisibility-cloak, etc.

Tbh bgs don't seem easy for anyone save maybe magsorcs imo

Combo and gameplay loop is still [snip], and hurtful to the bg. People see sniper on their team, they quit.

[edited for bashing]

erio · July 2020

Vermintide wrote: »

It doesn't matter how skilled you are, if you wind up in a mode like Chaosball and you can't hold the ball for more than 5 seconds, you're not going to win. If you can't stick on an objective in a flag based game mode, you aren't going to win. Deathmatch maybe they can hold their own, but not in a fun or entertaining way.

You perhaps misunderstand the term brawler. We're not talking about a nightblade who stands there and facetanks templars and DKs (although it would also be more fun if that too was possible). In the best brawler builds, stealth and shadow image was still used strategically. What brawler means in NB context is that they didn't simply disengage from a fight if they didn't immediately burst the enemy down. They had the sustain to outmanoeuvre and beat other classes 1-on-1 without simply ganking. That simply isn't true any more.

When the best NB builds are only possible in CP, non-stealth, use heavy armour, and rely on tripots... You know something is majorly wrong. That's a class entirely divorced from its identity.

Never said "hey make nbs the tankiest people in the game"

ZOS_ConnorG · July 2020

Greeting all,

After review we have had to remove or edit some posts for rule violations, specifically Baiting. Please ensure when engaging other users in discussion that, even if you disagree with other users, to keep the discussion civil, constructive, and within the rules.

You are welcome to review the Community Rules here.

Metemsycosis · July 2020

That's fair. But magblade does still have access to snare removal and major expedition, what the player base asked for, repeatedly, " then it broke the class "

So what is missing? Imo skill+experience. You learn to trick someone into a cc they can't break or you make them forget your merciless is up.

Still people don't talk about how proxy det, tho usable by any class, is still really a perfect weapon in the hands of a nightblade understanding the timing of the class; and if you use it as a regular melee weapon can help you if your 1v1 becomes a 2v1 and you have a tether. (If you use invis morph always try to cloak before any soul tether so it crits).

I agree experienced players will do whatever to avoid that harvest will combo, and lag can be frustrating, but imagine you could land it with ease-- it would be broken, as you would be deleting people left and right 😏

Considering how elusive you can still be right now on a magblade I cant imagine buffing its burst. Considering how the player base asked for class snare removal/immunity I can't see expedition or snare immunity being reapplied or applied elsewhere. Seeing as the support and outgoing healing of a magblade is at its dang near strongest, I don't see that changing either.

I think RAT answered the needs of the magickly swift. If it's maneuverability you want it's there. Imo it's not too great of a sacrifice in any department to slot it.

What is left is to question how effective swallow soul and concealed weapon are as spammables. And this is when I think skill and experience matters more than tooltips.

Vermintide · July 2020

Metemsycosis wrote: »

That's fair. But magblade does still have access to snare removal and major expedition, what the player base asked for, repeatedly, " then it broke the class "

It was other changes they made at the same time that hit us indirectly, if I remember right. Hasn't felt right since... Like... Summerset, I think?

Metemsycosis wrote: »

I agree experienced players will do whatever to avoid that harvest will combo, and lag can be frustrating, but imagine you could land it with ease-- it would be broken, as you would be deleting people left and right 😏

True, it needs to have counterplay. Problem is it's so easily countered, and it's all we have. Outside of that, you're only killing potatoes.

Metemsycosis wrote: »

I think RAT answered the needs of the magickly swift. If it's maneuverability you want it's there. Imo it's not too great of a sacrifice in any department to slot it.

We already had exactly the same thing as RAT on Phantasmal Escape though, there was no need to take it away from that, plus evasion. There were a lot of side-effects ripped out of skills seemingly for no reason.

Racial passive changes also hit pretty hard, hence everyone changing to certain races. I really liked how on my Dunmer I could build for sustain/defence and still get good damage out of the flame bonus. I'm not even talking about balance there, it's just something that directly made my character lose part of his identity and feel less fun.

Khatou · July 2020

Still it would be necessary to have an effective invisibility on the NB, the 3/4 of the time the person manages to touch us or to detect us with a disconcerting ease, limit, if a potion of invisibility does not do better than the fate of the assassin ...

Without forgetting the "Pets" that touch us even when we are invisible or the spells that remain on us once we are invisible!

Metemsycosis · July 2020

erio wrote: »

Metemsycosis wrote: »

erio wrote: »

Metemsycosis wrote: »

Why is brawling "healthier" for the game? You say it as a matter of fact when it is a matter of opinion, and I dont agree with you.

Sorry but sitting in a corner and just spamming snipe and silver shards with 1 hp cause of vamp, and then running away and hiding for 20 seconds for stamina and health isnt good for a bg. Not for your teammates, not for the players who (if decent shrug it off like its nothing) or just get zeroed in .5 seconds cause of lag and dysnc. Its pretty factual. Its a lowskill gameplay loop, that isnt healthy for you or those around you.

You're oversimplifying based on your experience. A skilled player will be skilled no matter the build they choose.

Imo if your snipers were more tactical you'd always be heavily-focusing priority targets or targeting those your melee fighters are engaging.

I do agree nbs are nerfed but they're also still very good imo. Adaptation is needed. High health recovery, high base resistance, Letting go of invisibility-cloak, etc.

Tbh bgs don't seem easy for anyone save maybe magsorcs imo

Combo and gameplay loop is still [snip], and hurtful to the bg. People see sniper on their team, they quit.

I don't. I make sure i get their attention and Maybe even tell them to watch my back. Cover me, im going in!

erio · July 2020

Khatou wrote: »

Still it would be necessary to have an effective invisibility on the NB, the 3/4 of the time the person manages to touch us or to detect us with a disconcerting ease, limit, if a potion of invisibility does not do better than the fate of the assassin ...

Without forgetting the "Pets" that touch us even when we are invisible or the spells that remain on us once we are invisible!

*cloaks, goes invisible for .01 seconds then pops right out*
1 potion can literally detect in a 20 yard radius, lots of stam builds run camo hunter, and theres literally a set in the game which can detect you from any range.

WacArnold · July 2020

Vermintide wrote: »

It doesn't matter how skilled you are, if you wind up in a mode like Chaosball and you can't hold the ball for more than 5 seconds, you're not going to win. If you can't stick on an objective in a flag based game mode, you aren't going to win. Deathmatch maybe they can hold their own, but not in a fun or entertaining way.

You perhaps misunderstand the term brawler. We're not talking about a nightblade who stands there and facetanks templars and DKs (although it would also be more fun if that too was possible). In the best brawler builds, stealth and shadow image was still used strategically. What brawler means in NB context is that they didn't simply disengage from a fight if they didn't immediately burst the enemy down. They had the sustain to outmanoeuvre and beat other classes 1-on-1 without simply ganking. That simply isn't true any more.

When the best NB builds are only possible in CP, non-stealth, use heavy armour, and rely on tripots... You know something is majorly wrong. That's a class entirely divorced from its identity.

This is the style i like to play. Its very very hard to find a good balance of damage, survivability and sustain. Usually im lacking in one department on a magblade. If we still had minor beserk as a class skill i think it would help, but even then getting your burst to align and hit is difficult. Imo i feel every class should be able to go toe to toe 1v1. Idk about stamblade but on my magblade i feel like im working so hard compared to stam characters. Im trying to get all the gears working together and in the mean time trying to stay alive. The dizzy/dawn/class burst into executioner happens 2 to 3 times as fast as i can gey my burst set up. I do one combo while my enemy has done 2. And executioner is just nasty since its 400% and starts at 50%.

Metemsycosis · July 2020

I tend to agree the build up on merciless is hefty and the time it stays "on" is also flaky. Like really not predictable as should be.

I used to run "quickness" trait (remember that??) just so I could have my merciless up fast and reliably. Nothing else mattered to my build quite as much.

To fix the class id look at damage of its spammables (imo these hit plenty hard when used at the right time) and examine how merciless is proc'd and how long it lasts. I don't want to see a nerf to its damage tho and I'm afraid any tinkering with its proc conditions will lead to a nerf in damage. That said if concealed or swallow soul hit harder maybe no one notices the nerf to the spectral bow. Idk.