I would agree that the Warrior and Apprentice should receive the same buff the Serpent and Atronach received, insofar as there are equivalent numbers on jewelry enchantments and corresponding racial passives.

Alternatively, Bosmer and Redguard's sustain passives could receive a buff instead of the Warrior. Just in base numbers of Weapon Damage and Stam Regen, an Orc with the Serpent now pulls ahead of a Bosmer with the Warrior, and the two were previously perfectly equal, but I suppose there are stronger multipliers for Damage than for Stam Regen, namely Major Berserk and the Malacath Ring, which might justify an increase to the Serpent. I know nothing about mag.

Tower and Mage need it just the same.

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Well, Apprentice and Warrior have been weak for too long, but what Mundus with max divines is equal to any 5 piece? And what 5 piece is 500 weapon or spell damage without conditions?

Thief is greater than mother sorrow, apprentice is greater than julianos, mage is greater than alfiq, and so on.

I guess it's hard to argue over supposed power and scaling of numbers when actual power is different in context, you could argue apprentice scales to julianos similar as thief to mother sorrow and mage to alfiq, etc, however, the power of crit is stronger than spell damge in general so I'm not so sure they should be weighed equally, so a buff set that gives 500 spell damage or close to it, say, the nerfed form of succession is on par with mother sorrow, but the apprentice is not and definitely not on par with the amount of crit given by the thief.

So, it bakes down to use thief and not apprentice.
But I don't want to nerf thief by any means, just have another option as a mundus without feeling flat

Maybe you're right in that it's unconditional spell power you achieve, but we are also both right in that it's underpowered, in fact maybe julianos/hundings should receive a buff as well, the only reason I would argue against it is it's strong already and I don't feel crafted sets should carry the same weight as trial/dungeon/overland you have to work for ( if you got a bonus for crafting yourself a set and it did better I would be down for that but.. whole other issue entirely )

Dracane wrote: »

brandoncoffmannub18_ESO wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Well, Apprentice and Warrior have been weak for too long, but what Mundus with max divines is equal to any 5 piece? And what 5 piece is 500 weapon or spell damage without conditions?

Thief is greater than mother sorrow, apprentice is greater than julianos, mage is greater than alfiq, and so on.

I guess it's hard to argue over supposed power and scaling of numbers when actual power is different in context, you could argue apprentice scales to julianos similar as thief to mother sorrow and mage to alfiq, etc, however, the power of crit is stronger than spell damge in general so I'm not so sure they should be weighed equally, so a buff set that gives 500 spell damage or close to it, say, the nerfed form of succession is on par with mother sorrow, but the apprentice is not and definitely not on par with the amount of crit given by the thief.

So, it bakes down to use thief and not apprentice.
But I don't want to nerf thief by any means, just have another option as a mundus without feeling flat

Maybe you're right in that it's unconditional spell power you achieve, but we are also both right in that it's underpowered, in fact maybe julianos/hundings should receive a buff as well, the only reason I would argue against it is it's strong already and I don't feel crafted sets should carry the same weight as trial/dungeon/overland you have to work for ( if you got a bonus for crafting yourself a set and it did better I would be down for that but.. whole other issue entirely )

Apprentice is not stronger than Julianos and Mage is not stronger than Alfiq and they are not even as strong.

Apprentice is 238 Spell damage while Julianos is 300 and Mage is 2023 Magicka while Alfiq is 2550. It is not even close.
The Mage is far behind all other damage Stones. You could argue "but it gives sustain" well, which magicka ability only costs 2k magicka? Maybe crushing shock. So Mage gives you no sustain at all, other than 1 additional spell. This does not justify its low damage value in comparison.

I meant with full divines.

brandoncoffmannub18_ESO wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

brandoncoffmannub18_ESO wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Well, Apprentice and Warrior have been weak for too long, but what Mundus with max divines is equal to any 5 piece? And what 5 piece is 500 weapon or spell damage without conditions?

Thief is greater than mother sorrow, apprentice is greater than julianos, mage is greater than alfiq, and so on.

I guess it's hard to argue over supposed power and scaling of numbers when actual power is different in context, you could argue apprentice scales to julianos similar as thief to mother sorrow and mage to alfiq, etc, however, the power of crit is stronger than spell damge in general so I'm not so sure they should be weighed equally, so a buff set that gives 500 spell damage or close to it, say, the nerfed form of succession is on par with mother sorrow, but the apprentice is not and definitely not on par with the amount of crit given by the thief.

So, it bakes down to use thief and not apprentice.
But I don't want to nerf thief by any means, just have another option as a mundus without feeling flat

Maybe you're right in that it's unconditional spell power you achieve, but we are also both right in that it's underpowered, in fact maybe julianos/hundings should receive a buff as well, the only reason I would argue against it is it's strong already and I don't feel crafted sets should carry the same weight as trial/dungeon/overland you have to work for ( if you got a bonus for crafting yourself a set and it did better I would be down for that but.. whole other issue entirely )

Apprentice is not stronger than Julianos and Mage is not stronger than Alfiq and they are not even as strong.

Apprentice is 238 Spell damage while Julianos is 300 and Mage is 2023 Magicka while Alfiq is 2550. It is not even close.
The Mage is far behind all other damage Stones. You could argue "but it gives sustain" well, which magicka ability only costs 2k magicka? Maybe crushing shock. So Mage gives you no sustain at all, other than 1 additional spell. This does not justify its low damage value in comparison.

I meant with full divines.

Ah I see.

Though I do not think that Mundus Stones should be balanced around divines. Divines should just be a bonus and divines is also rarely used on average pvp builds, let alone a full set of it.

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Well, Apprentice and Warrior have been weak for too long, but what Mundus with max divines is equal to any 5 piece? And what 5 piece is 500 weapon or spell damage without conditions?

Most are better than a 5 piece equivalent with full divines, especially using next patches divines:

Lover vs spriggans/spinners : ~4500 vs ~3400

Lady vs Fortified Brass : ~4500 vs ~3400

Tower/Mage vs Hulking/Alfiq : ~3300 vs ~2500

Lord vs Plague Doctor : ~3500 vs ~2800

Thief vs Leviathan/Mothers Sorrow : ~2500 vs ~1900

Warrior/Apprentice vs Hundings/Julianos : ~390 vs ~300