DragonKnight Wings

Vevvev · July 2020

Have to agree with OP. While the reflection of projectiles was seen as OP by some the 50% damage reduction just isn't enough. If you fight any sort of high DPS ranged combatant you'll know just how worthless it is to flap those wings as their cost for what they do isn't really worth it. I'd much rather have an additional heal in place of those wings or a gap closer/stun, which is of course what I end up slotting over it.

Karmanorway · July 2020

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Karmanorway wrote: »

You already have the strongest ultimate in the game, u know the iwinbutton Leap,
aint that enough?

[Quoted post was removed]

And exactly how do you run and block at the same time when ppl chase u? My character dont have eyes in the neck either.

[snip]

[Edited to remove Baiting]

Vevvev · July 2020

Karmanorway wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Karmanorway wrote: »

You already have the strongest ultimate in the game, u know the iwinbutton Leap,
aint that enough?

[Quoted post was removed]

And exactly how do you run and block at the same time when ppl chase u? My character dont have eyes in the neck either.

[snip]

Why are you running from a Dragonknight after you've engaged in combat with them? Their crowd control is amazing and all their Ardent Flame abilities Snare. They're that class that is built for a close range brawl and once they've got you its hard to get away.

Also as a Dragonknight I find my wing ultimate being completely useless in heavy lag. Very unwieldy and hard to cast where you'll just kind of get stuck on the ground for a half second before flying to the position only to not have your foe go flying because.... lag.

Sanguinor2 · July 2020

Karmanorway wrote: »

And exactly how do you run and block at the same time when ppl chase u? My character dont have eyes in the neck either.

[snip]

If you get leaped on you dont run anyway because it still has the gapcloser snare on it that all other gap closers lost so might aswell block.
If we balance everything according to cyro primetime then do we give everything a 5 second cast time? Because leap is hardly alone in being hard to deal with in cyro primetime.

Nirntrotter · July 2020

Karmanorway wrote: »

[snip]

So we should balance around server performance? Oh boy.

Mayrael · July 2020

Vevvev wrote: »

Karmanorway wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Karmanorway wrote: »

You already have the strongest ultimate in the game, u know the iwinbutton Leap,
aint that enough?

[Quoted post was removed]

And exactly how do you run and block at the same time when ppl chase u? My character dont have eyes in the neck either.

[snip]

Why are you running from a Dragonknight after you've engaged in combat with them? Their crowd control is amazing and all their Ardent Flame abilities Snare. They're that class that is built for a close range brawl and once they've got you its hard to get away.

Also as a Dragonknight I find my wing ultimate being completely useless in heavy lag. Very unwieldy and hard to cast where you'll just kind of get stuck on the ground for a half second before flying to the position only to not have your foe go flying because.... lag.

Oh poor you did you ever tried to cast soul harvest/incap (during that heavy lag) that is single target so can be dodged, is not a gapcloser so anyone can simply walk away from it and best of all has a cast time!? I'm telling you, it's like trying to poke mosquito in the left eye while having boxing gloves on.

Wings were stupidly OP. Shimmering shield and Ball of lightning are annoying but not even close to what wings used to be, at least you don't have to worry that someone will pop wings during Assassin's Will travel time and reflect your nuke back at you forcing you to dodge or kill your self.

There was nice idea how to keep wings uniqe and strong, while giving some counter play: wings would work only for projectiles shot from more than 7-8 meters. But DKs didn't wanted to lose their crutch and play on even terms in melee range so now they are left with still very powerful skill, but less fun.

Somewhere · July 2020

Dracane wrote: »

Imagine having 50% more damage reduction against half the game's abilities and still you complain. If you die to a player while negating half their damage on top of your mitigations, you need to rethink.

Wings need a decent duration nerf if anything.
I still like this old idea of making them stronger, but have them lose their effect once the target comes in melee range. That would be fair.

Though I admit, Wings are almost non-toxic compared to shimmering shield and ball of lightning.

I believe part of these complaints is that it is only useful in the event they're playing against someone who actually has projectile damage. This skill is going to look really good to someone playing a magsorc because of course you're going to notice that amount of damage mitigation.

But in most scenarios race against time is the better skill. It isnt as effective as wings against magsorc, bow users, or magn but that's ok because it provides additional mobility, crit damage, and a bonus damage shield. Magdk really do appreciate that bonus mobility.

YandereGirlfriend · July 2020

I never got to use the old version of Wings but I do enjoy even the reduced ability on my magDK.

The main pain point, as with all magDK skills, is the high base cost of their ability and its lack of a strong secondary function versus other comparable skills.

It's most glaring when compared to the (admittedly super OP) RAT, which is basically a mobility and damage support spammable that you can use to LoS when under attack, allowing you to mitigate 100% of damage once you round a corner. If a magDK could only choose one snare-removal tool between Wings and RAT, most of them would take RAT every time.

And then compared to Shimmering, it is impossible to ignore the superiority of Major Heroism effectively on-demand and its ability to nullify basically 100% of projectile damage.

Solutions for Wings would be to lower the snare-removal morph's base cost to something akin to RAT and give it an additional mobility enhancement, maybe like Minor Expedition. That would give magDKs more reason to choose it over RAT, which is, I think, what we want--classes using class skills over generic universal skills.

The damage morph could retain the same cost but the damage could stand to be increased and/or give some additional buff such as increased Weapon/Spell Damage for 6 seconds after getting hit by a projectile.

Nagastani · July 2020

DK Wings was never the issue, people learning to play was.

DUTCH_REAPER · July 2020

Nagastani wrote: »

DK Wings was never the issue, people learning to play was.

PREACH!! PREACH!!!

Stx · July 2020

Wings are an amazing skill. 50% damage reduction and an auto fireball every 0.5 seconds that hits for 3 to 6k plus? Low key insane. I guess everyone uses the other morph.

Karmanorway · July 2020

ethuiliel wrote: »

Karmanorway wrote: »

[snip]

So we should balance around server performance? Oh boy.

Either way Leap is OP, i dont run from a DK unless i get outnumbered which is basically every single time. Leap is the perfect zergling ultimate

Karmanorway · July 2020

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Karmanorway wrote: »

And exactly how do you run and block at the same time when ppl chase u? My character dont have eyes in the neck either.

[snip]

If you get leaped on you dont run anyway because it still has the gapcloser snare on it that all other gap closers lost so might aswell block.
If we balance everything according to cyro primetime then do we give everything a 5 second cast time? Because leap is hardly alone in being hard to deal with in cyro primetime.

I just run when im suddenly outnumbered, and thats the scenario where Leap truly shines. In a 1vs1 i just block it. Leap is the ultimate zergling tool, i would rather have gap closing dawnbreakers instead, atleast those u can break free from, and are not stuck in a unbreakable animation

Mayrael · July 2020

Nagastani wrote: »

DK Wings was never the issue, people learning to play was.

Let me explain you something.

To counter cloak you slot 1 skill and you can use 11/12 of your skills to kill NB.

To counter wings when you slot 1 melee skill you have 1/12 of your skills to kill DK. Do you feel the difference? Your "counter" forces complete build change, not just swapping one skill or even better using a potion, because killing DK using one skill without even being able to LA isn't an option.

[snip]

[Edited for Baiting]

Xologamer · July 2020

regime211 wrote: »

are Trash! You still take way too much damage from projectiles! And if nightblades can get their original Incap back. Why can't we get our original wings back?

nb incap is still nerfed ....
ps 50% dmg reduction is op af one of the strongest abilitis ingame stop mimimi

Zer0_CooL · July 2020

Mayrael wrote: »

Let me explain you something.

To counter cloak you slot 1 skill and you can use 11/12 of your skills to kill NB.

To counter wings when you slot 1 melee skill you have 1/12 of your skills to kill DK. Do you feel the difference? Your "counter" forces complete build change, not just swapping one skill or even better using a potion, because killing DK using one skill without even being able to LA isn't an option.

Actually it's DKs are tho ones that need to L2P without crutch skill.

Please get the difference between ranged and prjectile skills before making silly arguments.

Ranged =/= Projectiles

The only class and build that relys a 100% on projectile dmg is the snipe blade. MagSorc as the classical ranged class has puls force, storm calling, pets, rune and so on. the only thing in the sorc rota was frags and if used the destro touch. No need to change a complete build because 2 of your skills could be reflected by wings.

Dracane · July 2020

Mayrael wrote: »

Nagastani wrote: »

DK Wings was never the issue, people learning to play was.

Let me explain you something.

To counter cloak you slot 1 skill and you can use 11/12 of your skills to kill NB.

To counter wings when you slot 1 melee skill you have 1/12 of your skills to kill DK. Do you feel the difference? Your "counter" forces complete build change, not just swapping one skill or even better using a potion, because killing DK using one skill without even being able to LA isn't an option.

[snip]

[Edited for Baiting]

@Mayrael

Do not forget that most DKs use dragonfire scales, which commands you to stop doing the only good thing magicka classes have: Ranged light attack weaving. Especially for Nightblades who HAVE to do it for Assassin's Will. So you take 5x3k damage from the reflects until you have your arrow up and another 3k damage when it hits.

It is a crutch, it is ridiculous and it's imbalanced. Please tell me what must go wrong that a DK could die against you with 50% damage mitigation extra and throwing more damage back at you than your light attacks do to them.

I hope at some point all those hard counter abilities will be completely removed or allowed counterplay against by adding what we spoke about: This melee penalty where they do not function. Stop treating ranged builds like filthy peasants who even get punished for entering melee combat (which this game loves and forces upon everyone)

Moonsorrow · July 2020

Dracane wrote: »

It is a crutch, it is ridiculous and it's imbalanced.

Can remove such skills.. when they remove Streak/BoL and Cloak also and we should remove Purges too then. Also mitigation Ghost from Necro, also strong shields, since after healing nerf they are better than healing.

Then no one has their "crutches". Because without such skills against projectile spammers.. why would anyone play anything else than a projectile spamming sorc or sniper?

Serious question.

Can call them crutches if want.. but they are there to counter other classes "crutches" and trying to single out one or 2 does not work. Then lets kill all last class identity skills (crutches as you call them) and Streak/BoL is one of them, there is no real counter to that and everyone knows it. Sorc can use it offensively and/or to leave the battle at will. And nothing anyone can do to it if player knows what they are doing.

Reality is this: DK (stam or mag) with Wings gets zerged down fast with a mini-zerg. Wings up (either morph means nothing). Same mini-zerg needs a BIGGER zerg to take down a magsorc, IF can even catch them. Facts.

So yeah, lets nerf Wings since: "it is ridiculous and it`s imbalanced" - Known Magsorc.

Not like Magsorc is already the best solo class on PVP at most situations, so yeah lets nerf the few things that make sorcs atleast think before just projectile spam at every direction from 28m away from their safe space.

Seriously. You should know better. If you ask these things, they will do same to all class skills that still are unique and fun. So after Wings (or simultaneously) or similar skills would get nerfed to uselessness.

I play Msorc also (like all other classes too), and i rarely say this, but here it goes: Nerf Streak/BoL AND Shields. They are crutches and imbalanced and must be yeeted.

You can imagine that comment was my Dragonfire Scales reflecting back your nerf demands. Wanna do a comeback to this? There is none. You know this in your heart.

It is either all classes have their couple "crutches" or no class has. And i personally think this game should have atleast the last remnants of the old rock, paper, scissors where some classes/specs counters some, thus making you have to pick your targets.

killingspreeb16_ESO · July 2020

Hotdog_23 wrote: »

Wings was a very hard counter to especially magblades. Yet cry’s about cloak are unanswered. Sure, they are a lot of counter to cloak the same as there where counter to wings. You just had to slot and use them, but people did not want to slot for them so after years wings was changed. Still we must slot counters for cloak. A lot of the counters don’t work very well because of the limited range of effectiveness and the speed nightblades can have while in cloak.

In a vacuum wing is fine but when compared to some other skills in does not compete. Namely shimmering shield and ball of lightning. Even cloak can give a 100% mitigation of projectiles.

Please add major expedition to wings for 4 seconds and take it off chains.

Be safe and have fun 😊

The cry about cloak are not answered because the skill got many strong counter in the game.
And if cloak get any change atleast it need to work more than half of the time.

Imagine if wings was countered like cloak

Potion for unreflectable projectile.
Aoe and every attack that can damage the DK dispell wing from them.
A skill like magelight can suppress the activation of wings for X sec.
Also wings are not removed like cloak if the DK use X skill or do any damage to the target.
And as bonus the skill will fail to work half of the time!
Amazing right.

But regardless of that before wings against some build had 0 counterplay,the DK could reflect everything while also do their normal rotation with nothing you could do.

One thing many people my self included said was to add counterplay to wing not butcher the skill but ZoS yeah..

When you are in "melee"range wings can't reflect projectile there you go fixed,you could even increase the duration or number of projectile reflected since now the skill had counterplay.

Dracane · July 2020

Moonsorrow wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

It is a crutch, it is ridiculous and it's imbalanced.

Can remove such skills.. when they remove Streak/BoL and Cloak also and we should remove Purges too then. Also mitigation Ghost from Necro, also strong shields, since after healing nerf they are better than healing.

Then no one has their "crutches". Because without such skills against projectile spammers.. why would anyone play anything else than a projectile spamming sorc or sniper?

Serious question.

Can call them crutches if want.. but they are there to counter other classes "crutches" and trying to single out one or 2 does not work. Then lets kill all last class identity skills (crutches as you call them) and Streak/BoL is one of them, there is no real counter to that and everyone knows it. Sorc can use it offensively and/or to leave the battle at will. And nothing anyone can do to it if player knows what they are doing.

Reality is this: DK (stam or mag) with Wings gets zerged down fast with a mini-zerg. Wings up (either morph means nothing). Same mini-zerg needs a BIGGER zerg to take down a magsorc, IF can even catch them. Facts.

So yeah, lets nerf Wings since: "it is ridiculous and it`s imbalanced" - Known Magsorc.

Not like Magsorc is already the best solo class on PVP at most situations, so yeah lets nerf the few things that make sorcs atleast think before just projectile spam at every direction from 28m away from their safe space.

Seriously. You should know better. If you ask these things, they will do same to all class skills that still are unique and fun. So after Wings (or simultaneously) or similar skills would get nerfed to uselessness.

I play Msorc also (like all other classes too), and i rarely say this, but here it goes: Nerf Streak/BoL AND Shields. They are crutches and imbalanced and must be yeeted.

You can imagine that comment was my Dragonfire Scales reflecting back your nerf demands. Wanna do a comeback to this? There is none. You know this in your heart.

It is either all classes have their couple "crutches" or no class has. And i personally think this game should have atleast the last remnants of the old rock, paper, scissors where some classes/specs counters some, thus making you have to pick your targets.

[snip]

With your last few words I do agree however. If every class has something overpowered and crutchy, then that is a preferable scenario than no class having anything. Yet still, using your example of streak is not the best. It certainly is the Sorcerer crutch, since it's the only good thing the class has left and ONLY because of the recent cost decrease. Streak also has counters in the form of gap closers, which are not nearly as rare as you might believe and the speed of most stamina builds is immense enough to keep track as well.

I firmly believe that ranged builds should be faced with such counters to force them in close range. But then please make it whole and allow ranged attacks to perform normally once in melee range. Have wings only reflect actual range attacks, not when the target is within melee range. That is my only problem with things like wings and shimmering shield and I believe this is something most will be able to understand.

My main hate for wings is dragonfire scales and that every tiny light attacks reflects such amounts of damage. It is way too suppressive for how long it lasts. It's indomitable.

[Edited to remove Baiting]

jecks33 · July 2020

Achronokey wrote: »

im sory, 50% mitigation is not enought for ya? 50% + ur armor giving same 50% on a cap its 100%!!!! u geting 0 dmg from projectiles.

no, he wants 100% mitigation + projectile reflection + damage x4

Sanguinor2 · July 2020

jecks33 wrote: »

no, he wants 100% mitigation + projectile reflection + damage x4

Im sure he could also settle for 100% mitigation of infinite projectiles, no dots going through, no cc going through, no debuff going through, snare immunity, snare removal, teleport.

Katahdin · July 2020

Dracane wrote: »

[snip]

With your last few words I do agree however. If every class has something overpowered and crutchy, then that is a preferable scenario than no class having anything. Yet still, using your example of streak is not the best. It certainly is the Sorcerer crutch, since it's the only good thing the class has left and ONLY because of the recent cost decrease. Streak also has counters in the form of gap closers, which are not nearly as rare as you might believe and the speed of most stamina builds is immense enough to keep track as well.

I firmly believe that ranged builds should be faced with such counters to force them in close range. But then please make it whole and allow ranged attacks to perform normally once in melee range. Have wings only reflect actual range attacks, not when the target is within melee range. That is my only problem with things like wings and shimmering shield and I believe this is something most will be able to understand.

My main hate for wings is dragonfire scales and that every tiny light attacks reflects such amounts of damage. It is way too suppressive for how long it lasts. It's indomitable.

Yea lets force light armor wearers into close range where they can be easy wins for stam melee builds.

Wings completely shut down ranged builds, so pretty much all mag builds were rendered useless.

I had a ton of fun reverse one shotting ranged attacks on my DK before the nerf, it was hilarious for sure but completely negating all ranged attacks and ranged builds was not balanced game play.

Mayrael · July 2020

Zer0_CooL wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Let me explain you something.

To counter cloak you slot 1 skill and you can use 11/12 of your skills to kill NB.

To counter wings when you slot 1 melee skill you have 1/12 of your skills to kill DK. Do you feel the difference? Your "counter" forces complete build change, not just swapping one skill or even better using a potion, because killing DK using one skill without even being able to LA isn't an option.

[snip]

[Edited for Baiting]

Please get the difference between ranged and prjectile skills before making silly arguments.

Ranged =/= Projectiles

The only class and build that relys a 100% on projectile dmg is the snipe blade. MagSorc as the classical ranged class has puls force, storm calling, pets, rune and so on. the only thing in the sorc rota was frags and if used the destro touch. No need to change a complete build because 2 of your skills could be reflected by wings.

Nope actually magblade is forced to play ranged. Swallow soul, Assassin's will, cripple and ofc LA weaving to build Assassin's Will are all ranged. But sure, let's force magblades to use concealed in melee range (but without LA since there is no magicka melee weapon) against strongest melee class. Yes yes. What ranged skills have magblade access to, that are ranged and are not projectiles? Hmm? What can magblade do when he meets DK with old wings to couner it? Wait in hide to lose "in combat", swap build and try to fight in melee range having 2 offensive skills that wouldn't be reflected? You're delusional and biased. Old wings were crutch of all crutches, could be changed in other way, but we have what we have. If you still die to someone, while having skill that decreases his damage by 50% then I have news for you... Your opinion has no value.

Rahar · July 2020

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Just make wings a copy of ball of lightning. Afterall an ability providing mobility, snare removal+immunity and infinite projectiles absorbed for a few seconds seems to be completely fine

BoL is stupidly broken, just like wings was back then. Anything that negates an entire style of play for a set time is going to be nauseatingly strong against the kind of builds it counters, and that's exactly why wings shouldn't get the reflect back. The only reason it isn't abused more is because streak is better in the sorc kit if you're not using reach (from destro) and a master's staff.

t. magsorc main

Zer0_CooL wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Let me explain you something.

To counter cloak you slot 1 skill and you can use 11/12 of your skills to kill NB.

To counter wings when you slot 1 melee skill you have 1/12 of your skills to kill DK. Do you feel the difference? Your "counter" forces complete build change, not just swapping one skill or even better using a potion, because killing DK using one skill without even being able to LA isn't an option.

[snip]

[Edited for Baiting]

Please get the difference between ranged and prjectile skills before making silly arguments.

Ranged =/= Projectiles

The only class and build that relys a 100% on projectile dmg is the snipe blade. MagSorc as the classical ranged class has puls force, storm calling, pets, rune and so on. the only thing in the sorc rota was frags and if used the destro touch. No need to change a complete build because 2 of your skills could be reflected by wings.

lol, speaking of a silly argument

you can't kill anything on magsorc without frags

Sanguinor2 · July 2020

Rahar wrote: »

BoL is stupidly broken, just like wings was back then. Anything that negates an entire style of play for a set time is going to be nauseatingly strong against the kind of builds it counters, and that's exactly why wings shouldn't get the reflect back. The only reason it isn't abused more is because streak is better in the sorc kit if you're not using reach (from destro) and a master's staff.

t. magsorc main

I know and agree. However I always find it funny to remember that BoL got buffed to its current state after wings got nerfed and next to no one actually had objections towards that change.

Rahar · July 2020

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Rahar wrote: »

BoL is stupidly broken, just like wings was back then. Anything that negates an entire style of play for a set time is going to be nauseatingly strong against the kind of builds it counters, and that's exactly why wings shouldn't get the reflect back. The only reason it isn't abused more is because streak is better in the sorc kit if you're not using reach (from destro) and a master's staff.

t. magsorc main

I know and agree. However I always find it funny to remember that BoL got buffed to its current state after wings got nerfed and next to no one actually had objections towards that change.

Yeah. The current state of BoL is actually a really good anecdote for the way ZOS balances their game.

ZOS wrote:

We don't want DKs being able to shut down an entire style of play, but you know what would be cool? If another class could shut down an entire style of play!

Shadesofkin · July 2020

NGL, I miss the original scales, it was such a useful skill in Maelstrom.

Dracane · July 2020

Rahar wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Rahar wrote: »

BoL is stupidly broken, just like wings was back then. Anything that negates an entire style of play for a set time is going to be nauseatingly strong against the kind of builds it counters, and that's exactly why wings shouldn't get the reflect back. The only reason it isn't abused more is because streak is better in the sorc kit if you're not using reach (from destro) and a master's staff.

t. magsorc main

I know and agree. However I always find it funny to remember that BoL got buffed to its current state after wings got nerfed and next to no one actually had objections towards that change.

Yeah. The current state of BoL is actually a really good anecdote for the way ZOS balances their game.

ZOS wrote:

We don't want DKs being able to shut down an entire style of play, but you know what would be cool? If another class could shut down an entire style of play!

To highlight the overpowered state of ball of lightning, remind yourself that it also absorbs and negates some ultimates.

At this point there is nothing left to be said about it. It can not be balanced, probably not even if its duration was made so short that most people would not use it anymore. It has to be replaced. I see no other solution.

Galarthor · July 2020

regime211 wrote: »

Achronokey wrote: »

regime211 wrote: »

are Trash! You still take way too much damage from projectiles! And if nightblades can get their original Incap back. Why can't we get our original wings back?

im sory, 50% mitigation is not enought for ya? 50% + ur armor giving same 50% on a cap its 100%!!!! u geting 0 dmg from projectiles.

Lol man please those wings are straight garbage 50% isn't doing much at all i rather have it deflect back like it used to. Nobody asked for the change besides NB crying because they could NOT get close to a DK yet Nb managed to get their incap stun back?

Ofc you do. 100% mitigation and dealing damage back at ranged builds making you literally unkillable by ranged builds and thus OP is way more fun ... for you.