Penetration in 4 man content

Icaruzs · July 2020

So i see a lot of guides sugesting other sets assuming a trial scenario where the penetration cap is always there.

But for a 4 man content would sprigans and spinners do away more damage than other sets (spellpower and weapon power sets) , assuming that penetrating the target cause more damage than buffing yourself?

I heard that if the penetration cap is not there investing in penetration would be better.

How penetration work for stam qnd Mag? I mean mag will always haver elemental drain but only that wont reach the penetration cap.

I asking that because i'm thinking in changing sets for my Mag Sorc and stam Dk.

My single target fight set for my Dk área arms of R. And leviathan. Thinking in changing leviathan or Aegis Calleri for sprigans or Twice Fangs

My Mag sorc uses mother's sorrow and BSW. Thinking changing the BSW for spinners

kathandira · July 2020

Icaruzs wrote: »

So i see a lot of guides sugesting other sets assuming a trial scenario where the penetration cap is always there.

But for a 4 man content would sprigans and spinners do away more damage than other sets (spellpower and weapon power sets) , assuming that penetrating the target cause more damage than buffing yourself?

I heard that if the penetration cap is not there investing in penetration would be better.

How penetration work for stam qnd Mag? I mean mag will always haver elemental drain but only that wont reach the penetration cap.

I asking that because i'm thinking in changing sets for my Mag Sorc and stam Dk.

My single target fight set for my Dk área arms of R. And leviathan. Thinking in changing leviathan or Aegis Calleri for sprigans or Twice Fangs

My Mag sorc uses mother's sorrow and BSW. Thinking changing the BSW for spinners

In a 4 man as a StamDK, if you have your tank or someone applying fracture, then you are fine. In 4 man content, you don't need a lot of penetration. You can really pick up all the Pen you need via CP allocation.

If I am correct, and others are welcome to correct me. The higher the content, the more you have to be concerned with resistance.

Delves & Public Dungeons - No Penetration required
Normal Dungeons - No Penetration required
Vet Dungeons - Has Resistance
Normal Trials - Has Resistance
Vet Trials - Has Resistance

Beyond that. How much penetration will need may vary. There are many sources of Fracture and Breach and miscellaneous resistance lowering skills and such.

In general, your tank should be applying Major Fracture and Breach. They may even be providing the Minor of them as well if they use Defiled Dragon or Alkosh. Tanks in general should also be using Crusher which will lower the resistance of the enemy, which if they also use it on an Infused weapon will give it a boost. If you are using Spriggans, or Night Mothers with just a few points put into Penetration CP, then you are basically at Cap, or close enough to it, for all PvE content.

Everest_Lionheart · July 2020

I’ve gone the opposite on my stamwarden. Changed from Spriggans to Briarheart and picked up 5K DPS as a result. I solo a lot of 4 man normal content. The Briarheart kills stuff quicker. In this case it’s a trade to critical from penetration. The class skills grants you major brutality and major fracture. You can also access minor vulnerability and minor beserk with the setup also.

In the end I’m still getting more stacking crits with Briarheart than I was with high pen on Spriggans. I do use Spriggans as a PvP set though.

idk · July 2020

kathandira wrote: »

Icaruzs wrote: »

So i see a lot of guides sugesting other sets assuming a trial scenario where the penetration cap is always there.

But for a 4 man content would sprigans and spinners do away more damage than other sets (spellpower and weapon power sets) , assuming that penetrating the target cause more damage than buffing yourself?

I heard that if the penetration cap is not there investing in penetration would be better.

How penetration work for stam qnd Mag? I mean mag will always haver elemental drain but only that wont reach the penetration cap.

I asking that because i'm thinking in changing sets for my Mag Sorc and stam Dk.

My single target fight set for my Dk área arms of R. And leviathan. Thinking in changing leviathan or Aegis Calleri for sprigans or Twice Fangs

My Mag sorc uses mother's sorrow and BSW. Thinking changing the BSW for spinners

If I am correct, and others are welcome to correct me. The higher the content, the more you have to be concerned with resistance.

I think the resistance of NPCs is consistent except for vMA where it is all over the place. The biggest difference between a trial boss and a 4 man dungeon boss is total HP. Fights are much shorter as a result. I change CP for trials but not for dungeons.

As for open-world type stuff, I do not know their resistance.

FrancisCrawford · July 2020

Your post seems to contradict itself.

On the one hand, you say penetration from sets isn't needed.

On the other hand, you recommend Spriggans or NMG as a way to get to the penetration cap.

Further, you both state that the tank will provide Major Fracture and also mention NMG approvingly, even though the benefit of NMG has long been to apply Major Fracture.

Does anybody have actual numbers here? I'm thinking of both:

A. Is added penetration (when you're below cap) really better than other alternatives? By how much?

B. What are the caps in various contexts, and how far do the standard penetration aids go towards meeting them?

kathandira wrote: »

Icaruzs wrote: »

So i see a lot of guides sugesting other sets assuming a trial scenario where the penetration cap is always there.

But for a 4 man content would sprigans and spinners do away more damage than other sets (spellpower and weapon power sets) , assuming that penetrating the target cause more damage than buffing yourself?

I heard that if the penetration cap is not there investing in penetration would be better.

How penetration work for stam qnd Mag? I mean mag will always haver elemental drain but only that wont reach the penetration cap.

I asking that because i'm thinking in changing sets for my Mag Sorc and stam Dk.

My single target fight set for my Dk área arms of R. And leviathan. Thinking in changing leviathan or Aegis Calleri for sprigans or Twice Fangs

My Mag sorc uses mother's sorrow and BSW. Thinking changing the BSW for spinners

In a 4 man as a StamDK, if you have your tank or someone applying fracture, then you are fine. In 4 man content, you don't need a lot of penetration. You can really pick up all the Pen you need via CP allocation.

If I am correct, and others are welcome to correct me. The higher the content, the more you have to be concerned with resistance.

Delves & Public Dungeons - No Penetration required
Normal Dungeons - No Penetration required
Vet Dungeons - Has Resistance
Normal Trials - Has Resistance
Vet Trials - Has Resistance

Beyond that. How much penetration will need may vary. There are many sources of Fracture and Breach and miscellaneous resistance lowering skills and such.

In general, your tank should be applying Major Fracture and Breach. They may even be providing the Minor of them as well if they use Defiled Dragon or Alkosh. Tanks in general should also be using Crusher which will lower the resistance of the enemy, which if they also use it on an Infused weapon will give it a boost. If you are using Spriggans, or Night Mothers with just a few points put into Penetration CP, then you are basically at Cap, or close enough to it, for all PvE content.

Alendrin · July 2020

As per usual, it really depends. If you are soloing the 4 man content or there is no tank, then you want the pen. If the tank applies major breach/fracture, alkosh, and crusher or a couple other random debuffs then probably its not worth using a pen set. But how often do you get that in the 4 man content you do? Only you can answer that.

Jaimeh · July 2020

Icaruzs wrote: »

So i see a lot of guides sugesting other sets assuming a trial scenario where the penetration cap is always there.

But for a 4 man content would sprigans and spinners do away more damage than other sets (spellpower and weapon power sets) , assuming that penetrating the target cause more damage than buffing yourself?

I heard that if the penetration cap is not there investing in penetration would be better.

How penetration work for stam qnd Mag? I mean mag will always haver elemental drain but only that wont reach the penetration cap.

I asking that because i'm thinking in changing sets for my Mag Sorc and stam Dk.

My single target fight set for my Dk área arms of R. And leviathan. Thinking in changing leviathan or Aegis Calleri for sprigans or Twice Fangs

My Mag sorc uses mother's sorrow and BSW. Thinking changing the BSW for spinners

If you have a tank in the group, you might be over-pen'ing with something like TFS, you can test it with combat metrics if you are on PC, next time you do a run. If you choose a non-pen set, you can compensate with CP, and use caltrops in aoe mob packs.

El_Borracho · July 2020

Just here to say the title of your article is flat out funny.

IonicKai · July 2020

As at least a few have said it really depends on group comp as to wether or not pen is better. If you are running in PUGs it's very difficult to say. If you have a tank with alkosh the. Typically it's better not to run a pen set because you will get 8-12k pen from fracture, alkosh, crusher enchant and mag has 5k built in from the light armor passive (basically cap at that point). If you are 3 DPS and a tank not wearing alkosh then damage sets plus the lover mundus is typically the desired play along with possibly a hybrid damage pen set like NMA.

Hope this helps some but the math is not straight forward without knowing more about the group. Pen is a good investment but there are so many sources to get it from that you need more info to know what's BiS. It's largely situational though I will say that stam always needs pen more than mag because of the mag passive (though that's largely grabbed from CP).

FrancisCrawford · July 2020

El_Borracho wrote: »

Just here to say the title of your article is flat out funny.

If that's your taste in humor, do please recall the name of the Mundus stone that gives added penetration.

Icaruzs · July 2020

Thank you everyone for the answers

IonicKai wrote: »

As at least a few have said it really depends on group comp as to wether or not pen is better. If you are running in PUGs it's very difficult to say. If you have a tank with alkosh the. Typically it's better not to run a pen set because you will get 8-12k pen from fracture, alkosh, crusher enchant and mag has 5k built in from the light armor passive (basically cap at that point). If you are 3 DPS and a tank not wearing alkosh then damage sets plus the lover mundus is typically the desired play along with possibly a hybrid damage pen set like NMA.

Hope this helps some but the math is not straight forward without knowing more about the group. Pen is a good investment but there are so many sources to get it from that you need more info to know what's BiS. It's largely situational though I will say that stam always needs pen more than mag because of the mag passive (though that's largely grabbed from CP).

I never see people using alkosh in my groups, rly rare.

I pug a lot vet dlc and it's rare to see these sets on tanks. Dunno if HM increase the boss resistance too.

Another question for my Stam dk, if just use a maul (he uses 2hand) can the penetration issue be solved? Instead of using a pen set, and considering I get random tanks a lot?

I just Don't Know if maces and mauls ignore the total resistance (in case of 2handed the bonus is 20%) or the remaining resistence of the target

Oreyn_Bearclaw · July 2020

Totally depends on your group. The best advice these days it to just take you trial build into 4 man. You are splitting very small hairs at that point. If you want to change anything, just swap some CP to put more points into pen.

Edit: Also, what your sorc needs is a good trial set. Minor Slayer is too important to leave on the table as a PVE DPS. False God for movement, siroria for static fights. You can run False God and MS on basically any magic class and you will never be far from the meta for any fight.

Icaruzs · July 2020

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Totally depends on your group. The best advice these days it to just take you trial build into 4 man. You are splitting very small hairs at that point. If you want to change anything, just swap some CP to put more points into pen.

Edit: Also, what your sorc needs is a good trial set. Minor Slayer is too important to leave on the table as a PVE DPS. False God for movement, siroria for static fights. You can run False God and MS on basically any magic class and you will never be far from the meta for any fight.

False god seems not that usefull for the blood for blood meta, where you wont run out of magicka

IonicKai · July 2020

Icaruzs wrote: »

Thank you everyone for the answers

IonicKai wrote: »

As at least a few have said it really depends on group comp as to wether or not pen is better. If you are running in PUGs it's very difficult to say. If you have a tank with alkosh the. Typically it's better not to run a pen set because you will get 8-12k pen from fracture, alkosh, crusher enchant and mag has 5k built in from the light armor passive (basically cap at that point). If you are 3 DPS and a tank not wearing alkosh then damage sets plus the lover mundus is typically the desired play along with possibly a hybrid damage pen set like NMA.

Hope this helps some but the math is not straight forward without knowing more about the group. Pen is a good investment but there are so many sources to get it from that you need more info to know what's BiS. It's largely situational though I will say that stam always needs pen more than mag because of the mag passive (though that's largely grabbed from CP).

I never see people using alkosh in my groups, rly rare.

I pug a lot vet dlc and it's rare to see these sets on tanks. Dunno if HM increase the boss resistance too.

Another question for my Stam dk, if just use a maul (he uses 2hand) can the penetration issue be solved? Instead of using a pen set, and considering I get random tanks a lot?

I just Don't Know if maces and mauls ignore the total resistance (in case of 2handed the bonus is 20%) or the remaining resistence of the target

It is 20% of remaining resistance if I recall correctly which is why it's not a very desired setup. Most dungeons when pugging aren't difficult enough to justify too much setup in my opinion but if find you consistently need something consider running the lover mundus or adjusting your CP a bit for pen.

Stamina the best way to get pen is good ole twice fang serpent (yes the set from vso). As I said stam is pen hungry because they get so little by default. For mag I would just adjust CP a little or maybe run valkyn skoria since they changed the first set bones to spell pen.