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Competetive PvP without mythic items?
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Spizzie✭✭✭It doesn't mater
Nah. I'll stay in this thread.
I am familiar with that spreadsheet. And Malacath increases damage. Yes, 3.3k crit resist negates natural crit bonus, it even says in the excel file. A couple percent due to calculation don't change the core idea that standard crits are effectively neutered these days. Speaking of, I am also aware of how Malacath doesn't multiply all damage by 1.25. but 16% is noticeably more than 11%, isn't it?
I believe in actually testing numbers. The game doesn't care for your paper math.
I prefaced my entire post with "this is a math trap for most people"; I don't necessarily want that to be true but here we are. Do you see the irony in proclaiming to "believe in actually testing numbers" and then subsequently denying the reality of those numbers once presented to you?
It has a lower % impact the more % damage modifiers you have because it's calculating off the base damage. You have considerably more % damage modifiers in CP than in no-CP. I'm not pro-Malacath or anti-Malacath, I'm just simply stating how the game calculates these numbers. If you go into a BG's and have no source of Minor Berserk or +damage done for a specific element, you will see Malacath improve your damage by 25%. Like a poster above me said, you can see very clearly in that equation that as your base damage improves, the impact of Malacath decreases. It shouldn't be inconceivable to you that it's impact can get down to 10-12% because that spreadsheet so clearly illustrates these concepts. Fantastic work by that dude to help people understand Malacath, btw.
Stamblades running the Shadow have a 93% crit modifier without divines. They would have to consistently fight people with over 5000 crit resist to make Malacath worth it, and that's assuming they aren't Khajit or have Minor Force.
Malacath is incredibly effective for builds that want to raise their floor damage. You're basically siphoning off the top end burst damage from your build to bolster the base damage you can dish out, which ends up being most effective on DoT builds and builds that can win the war of attrition. But look, if all this information is in front of you and you still want to run Malacath on your nightblade, I get it. It's a roleplaying game for a reason.0 -
Vaoh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Proper mythic builds are always superior.Not always superior, but they certainly do matter. Mostly speaking for No CP PvP.
Malacath’s Ring is very strong. Also there is no replacement for something like Snow Treaders or Ring of the Wild Hunt.
You can still make powerful builds without Mythics ofc.0 -
Kadoin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Proper mythic builds are always superior.When Ring of Malacath buffs some damage that really shouldn't, like CP skill riposte that apparently also has an infinite range and no CD on proc and you can nuke yourself with it by using DoTs on a TANK, then maybe ZOS should take a look at that skill and that ring because it's beyond stupid and unbalanced to give tanks free damage, nerf everyone's healing, effectively make defile stronger, and then buff proc set healing vs. actual class and weapon line skills.
In other words, mythics pretty much buff tank builds even more than they were any other patch and there is zero downside to running extremely tanky builds carried by mythics in CP and noCP.
Ya'll stop playin' you know its true.
All mythics accomplished was increasing the disparity between builds even more, nothing less of what was expected. Except in some cases, if you really have a brain you can make builds that have zero weakness using these mythics, and I won't say what they are because I know ZOS won't nerf the mythics but instead the associated sets and think the problem is solved when it won't be.
But if you hang around the right areas in-game or off these forums you will find exactly what I mean ...0 -
Lord-Otto✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Proper mythic builds are always superior.
Nah. I'll stay in this thread.
I am familiar with that spreadsheet. And Malacath increases damage. Yes, 3.3k crit resist negates natural crit bonus, it even says in the excel file. A couple percent due to calculation don't change the core idea that standard crits are effectively neutered these days. Speaking of, I am also aware of how Malacath doesn't multiply all damage by 1.25. but 16% is noticeably more than 11%, isn't it?
I believe in actually testing numbers. The game doesn't care for your paper math.
I prefaced my entire post with "this is a math trap for most people"; I don't necessarily want that to be true but here we are. Do you see the irony in proclaiming to "believe in actually testing numbers" and then subsequently denying the reality of those numbers once presented to you?
It has a lower % impact the more % damage modifiers you have because it's calculating off the base damage. You have considerably more % damage modifiers in CP than in no-CP. I'm not pro-Malacath or anti-Malacath, I'm just simply stating how the game calculates these numbers. If you go into a BG's and have no source of Minor Berserk or +damage done for a specific element, you will see Malacath improve your damage by 25%. Like a poster above me said, you can see very clearly in that equation that as your base damage improves, the impact of Malacath decreases. It shouldn't be inconceivable to you that it's impact can get down to 10-12% because that spreadsheet so clearly illustrates these concepts. Fantastic work by that dude to help people understand Malacath, btw.
Stamblades running the Shadow have a 93% crit modifier without divines. They would have to consistently fight people with over 5000 crit resist to make Malacath worth it, and that's assuming they aren't Khajit or have Minor Force.
Malacath is incredibly effective for builds that want to raise their floor damage. You're basically siphoning off the top end burst damage from your build to bolster the base damage you can dish out, which ends up being most effective on DoT builds and builds that can win the war of attrition. But look, if all this information is in front of you and you still want to run Malacath on your nightblade, I get it. It's a roleplaying game for a reason.
Shadow?
Right, forget it. Don't take screenshots of actual numbers popping up in combat. I've got my answer.
Shadow...0 -
Lord-Otto✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Proper mythic builds are always superior.Malacath is breaking the PvP at the moment.
Not in CP PvP. You give up a lot to have it. First you lose all crit damage. So a NB for example would never use it. Then, you lose a set bonus. For example, you might equip only one piece of the monster set. Then, for example, if you use Balorgh, you lose all crit damage AND the balorgh weapon damage plus Balorgh penetration. That is a huge loss.
I tried Malacath with 2 potentate, a monster set, and a whole 5 piece set plus 2 masters weapons. But then you lose an entire 5 piece set bonus. I did this on my DK who has low crit damage. Roughly speaking if you have 30% crit and 60% crit damage you average only 18% more damage so Malacath might work ok. But, that ignores the muliplicative feature of the 25% malacath bonus, which reduces the relative damage gain.
Or you could run it with a set on the Front bar and a set on the back bar (2 body, 1 jewelry and one weapon each). But then you can only have both set bonuses for certain builds.
I think it works ok for certain builds but it is not god mode by any means.
No. With base impen, you now see people with 3.3k crit resist, negating standard crit damage. If you now throw Malacath on, it's like you're permanently dealing crit damage, 100% of the time. Monster sets are now also all trash, except for EG body block.
First of all, 3300 crit resist does not negate crit damage. It reduces it by 50%. I have always worn about 3k crit resist to get close to 50% mitigation and this won't change now, I am not now running 4300 crit resist but replacing impenetrable with divines to get variety in the build.
Second, the other poster was absolutely right that it isn't 25% damage increase. It is often much less. Here is the explanation/example in another post:
"*Malacath's damage bonus is additive to other base damage multipliers while cit damage bonus is multiplicative to base damage bonuses. For example, if my base damage is "5" and let's say that buffed on a CP environment I have 50% damage bonus without Malacath's, My damage will be 7.5. With Malacath's that damage will be 8.75.
The increase in this case is 1.25; (ie you add the increase from the base damage to the increase from other source. Thus you go from 7.5 to 8.75 = 7.5/8.75 = a 16% increase over the damage with no band. You dont increase the damage by 25% x 7.5 (which would be multiplicative which is what crit damage is).
There is no need to post parses, this has all been figured out long ago. I will link the post that has the definitive spreadsheet you can use to caclulate whether the band does more damage than crit for your build.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/530523/malacaths-ring-and-impen-crit-calculations
If you go through the math on the spreadsheet and want to keep arguing, you can post in the above thread.
Nah. I'll stay in this thread.
I am familiar with that spreadsheet. And Malacath increases damage. Yes, 3.3k crit resist negates natural crit bonus, it even says in the excel file. A couple percent due to calculation don't change the core idea that standard crits are effectively neutered these days. Speaking of, I am also aware of how Malacath doesn't multiply all damage by 1.25. but 16% is noticeably more than 11%, isn't it?
I believe in actually testing numbers. The game doesn't care for your paper math.Malacath is breaking the PvP at the moment.
Not in CP PvP. You give up a lot to have it. First you lose all crit damage. So a NB for example would never use it. Then, you lose a set bonus. For example, you might equip only one piece of the monster set. Then, for example, if you use Balorgh, you lose all crit damage AND the balorgh weapon damage plus Balorgh penetration. That is a huge loss.
I tried Malacath with 2 potentate, a monster set, and a whole 5 piece set plus 2 masters weapons. But then you lose an entire 5 piece set bonus. I did this on my DK who has low crit damage. Roughly speaking if you have 30% crit and 60% crit damage you average only 18% more damage so Malacath might work ok. But, that ignores the muliplicative feature of the 25% malacath bonus, which reduces the relative damage gain.
Or you could run it with a set on the Front bar and a set on the back bar (2 body, 1 jewelry and one weapon each). But then you can only have both set bonuses for certain builds.
I think it works ok for certain builds but it is not god mode by any means.
No. With base impen, you now see people with 3.3k crit resist, negating standard crit damage. If you now throw Malacath on, it's like you're permanently dealing crit damage, 100% of the time. Monster sets are now also all trash, except for EG body block.
First of all, 3300 crit resist does not negate crit damage. It reduces it by 50%. I have always worn about 3k crit resist to get close to 50% mitigation and this won't change now, I am not now running 4300 crit resist but replacing impenetrable with divines to get variety in the build.
Second, the other poster was absolutely right that it isn't 25% damage increase. It is often much less. Here is the explanation/example in another post:
"*Malacath's damage bonus is additive to other base damage multipliers while cit damage bonus is multiplicative to base damage bonuses. For example, if my base damage is "5" and let's say that buffed on a CP environment I have 50% damage bonus without Malacath's, My damage will be 7.5. With Malacath's that damage will be 8.75.
The increase in this case is 1.25; (ie you add the increase from the base damage to the increase from other source. Thus you go from 7.5 to 8.75 = 7.5/8.75 = a 16% increase over the damage with no band. You dont increase the damage by 25% x 7.5 (which would be multiplicative which is what crit damage is).
There is no need to post parses, this has all been figured out long ago. I will link the post that has the definitive spreadsheet you can use to caclulate whether the band does more damage than crit for your build.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/530523/malacaths-ring-and-impen-crit-calculations
If you go through the math on the spreadsheet and want to keep arguing, you can post in the above thread.
Nah. I'll stay in this thread.
I am familiar with that spreadsheet. And Malacath increases damage. Yes, 3.3k crit resist negates natural crit bonus, it even says in the excel file. A couple percent due to calculation don't change the core idea that standard crits are effectively neutered these days. Speaking of, I am also aware of how Malacath doesn't multiply all damage by 1.25. but 16% is noticeably more than 11%, isn't it?
I believe in actually testing numbers. The game doesn't care for your paper math.
If by "negate" you mean "reduces by 50%", then I totally agree with you! However, that would be a pretty strange way to define "negate". If you mean "completely eliminates" then you are just wrong. Critical resistance reduces crit damage by a simple equation, and 3300 crit resistance eliminates 50% of crit damage. If you think otherwise you are mistaken. The spreadsheet shows the 3300 crit resistance and 50% reduction in the cell next to it.
The example I gave was for the purpose of making it simple. Of course, it is also calculated by an algebraic equation. Maybe you never took algebra, but you simply change the variable in the equation and you get a different result. It's easy enough to see that if base damage is increased more than 50% in the equation, the percent damage attributed to Malacath will shrink and yes, even sometimes below 10%.
I didn't "take" algebra. It was expected as a base subject in maths in my education. Not a big deal.0 -
Atherakhia✭✭✭✭The mythic items are good but it's a trade off, as it should be. The normal build is 5-5-2 and you can't wear a mythic item without disrupting this. You have to make adjustments.
For example Snow treaders are fantastic since they eliminate tons of annoying cc's. But to wear them I lost one of my monster set (Balorgh) which is a huge loss. The sets I'm wearing don't work well with a front bar only/back bar only approach. So far its worth it but I'm evaluating.
This is true in theory but not really true in practice. There are many builds that circumvent this issue by triggering procs that remain even after bar swapping. Clever Alchemist being the most obvious example of this, but hardly the only one. We also have a large number of sets that have strong 1-4pc bonuses that compliment this as well. Orgnum's Scale and Stuhn's being great examples.
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Mayrael✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭It doesn't materMalacath is breaking the PvP at the moment.
Not in CP PvP. You give up a lot to have it. First you lose all crit damage. So a NB for example would never use it. Then, you lose a set bonus. For example, you might equip only one piece of the monster set. Then, for example, if you use Balorgh, you lose all crit damage AND the balorgh weapon damage plus Balorgh penetration. That is a huge loss.
I tried Malacath with 2 potentate, a monster set, and a whole 5 piece set plus 2 masters weapons. But then you lose an entire 5 piece set bonus. I did this on my DK who has low crit damage. Roughly speaking if you have 30% crit and 60% crit damage you average only 18% more damage so Malacath might work ok. But, that ignores the muliplicative feature of the 25% malacath bonus, which reduces the relative damage gain.
Or you could run it with a set on the Front bar and a set on the back bar (2 body, 1 jewelry and one weapon each). But then you can only have both set bonuses for certain builds.
I think it works ok for certain builds but it is not god mode by any means.
No. With base impen, you now see people with 3.3k crit resist, negating standard crit damage. If you now throw Malacath on, it's like you're permanently dealing crit damage, 100% of the time. Monster sets are now also all trash, except for EG body block.
First of all, 3300 crit resist does not negate crit damage. It reduces it by 50%. I have always worn about 3k crit resist to get close to 50% mitigation and this won't change now, I am not now running 4300 crit resist but replacing impenetrable with divines to get variety in the build.
Second, the other poster was absolutely right that it isn't 25% damage increase. It is often much less. Here is the explanation/example in another post:
"*Malacath's damage bonus is additive to other base damage multipliers while cit damage bonus is multiplicative to base damage bonuses. For example, if my base damage is "5" and let's say that buffed on a CP environment I have 50% damage bonus without Malacath's, My damage will be 7.5. With Malacath's that damage will be 8.75.
The increase in this case is 1.25; (ie you add the increase from the base damage to the increase from other source. Thus you go from 7.5 to 8.75 = 7.5/8.75 = a 16% increase over the damage with no band. You dont increase the damage by 25% x 7.5 (which would be multiplicative which is what crit damage is).
There is no need to post parses, this has all been figured out long ago. I will link the post that has the definitive spreadsheet you can use to caclulate whether the band does more damage than crit for your build.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/530523/malacaths-ring-and-impen-crit-calculations
If you go through the math on the spreadsheet and want to keep arguing, you can post in the above thread.
Nah. I'll stay in this thread.
I am familiar with that spreadsheet. And Malacath increases damage. Yes, 3.3k crit resist negates natural crit bonus, it even says in the excel file. A couple percent due to calculation don't change the core idea that standard crits are effectively neutered these days. Speaking of, I am also aware of how Malacath doesn't multiply all damage by 1.25. but 16% is noticeably more than 11%, isn't it?
I believe in actually testing numbers. The game doesn't care for your paper math.
Reading this is like reading flatearthers arguments. I see your mathematics, calculations and proofs but I THINK that it's wrong, I won't show you any calculations to prove you're wrong but you're wrong...
It's very simple, if you build around crit it will be superior, if you do not build around crit malacath will be better, you can also use other mythical you know who offer nice bonuses, but people are so blinded by malacath that it's the only item they see. There are a lot more powerful setups, some are slowing to kill people with 30k hp and 30k resists within 3-4s and these are not build around malacath
Say no to Toxic Casuals!
I am doing my best, but I am not a native speaker, sorry.
"Difficulty scaling is desperately needed. 9 years. 6 paid expansions. 24 DLCs. 40 game changing updates including A Realm Reborn-tier overhaul of the game including a permanent CP160 gear cap and ridiculous power creep thereafter. I'm sick and tired of hearing about Cadwell Silver&Gold as a "you think you do but you don't"-tier deflection to any criticism regarding the lack of overland difficulty in the game." - @AlexanderDeLarge0