Competetive PvP without mythic items?

Zer0_CooL

I wonder how big the impact of the new mythic item sets is, in regard of PvP. Does it grant an advantage over the usual 5/5/2 builds or not?

Rianai

There are a few exceptions but for the vast majority of builds mythic items are clearly bis. Especially Malacath, which enables amounts of dmg and survivability in one build, that can't be achieved otherwise. But even other items are usually a straight upgrade, since you don't neccessarily have to give up another set.

Lughlongarm

Definitely not always BiS. And also, by the amount of impen traits I can see players carry to this day, I can assume
"malacath's band of brutality" is not as popular as considered.

Tammany

Proper mythic builds are always superior.

New wild hunt ring is a nobrainer for scrolls delivering.
The disigner was high or pver.

Fur_like_snow

Which mythic are you talking about? Malacath might be bis in some situations on certain builds vs certain opponents. In other situations the 5/5/2 might be the better choice it’s all very context based. Is this about GvG, BGs, zergVSzerg or dueling in CP or NO CP? It’s almost impossible to answer the question without more context.

katorga

It doesn't mater

It creates build diversity.

Theignson

It doesn't mater

The mythic items are good but it's a trade off, as it should be. The normal build is 5-5-2 and you can't wear a mythic item without disrupting this. You have to make adjustments.

For example Snow treaders are fantastic since they eliminate tons of annoying cc's. But to wear them I lost one of my monster set (Balorgh) which is a huge loss. The sets I'm wearing don't work well with a front bar only/back bar only approach. So far its worth it but I'm evaluating.

technohic

It doesn't mater

Theignson wrote: »

The mythic items are good but it's a trade off, as it should be. The normal build is 5-5-2 and you can't wear a mythic item without disrupting this. You have to make adjustments.

For example Snow treaders are fantastic since they eliminate tons of annoying cc's. But to wear them I lost one of my monster set (Balorgh) which is a huge loss. The sets I'm wearing don't work well with a front bar only/back bar only approach. So far its worth it but I'm evaluating.

I so would like to use snowtreaders but sprint is the biggest speed boost you can have, medium and stam have passable root and snare immunity options while light armor makes sprint cheap and in CP, windrunner boosts your mag recovery. Sp to run it and have decent mobility, I'd have to give up some set piece and run steed with 3 swift jewelry to cover sprint.

Lord-Otto

Proper mythic builds are always superior.

Malacath is breaking the PvP at the moment.

Theignson

It doesn't mater

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Malacath is breaking the PvP at the moment.

Not in CP PvP. You give up a lot to have it. First you lose all crit damage. So a NB for example would never use it. Then, you lose a set bonus. For example, you might equip only one piece of the monster set. Then, for example, if you use Balorgh, you lose all crit damage AND the balorgh weapon damage plus Balorgh penetration. That is a huge loss.

I tried Malacath with 2 potentate, a monster set, and a whole 5 piece set plus 2 masters weapons. But then you lose an entire 5 piece set bonus. I did this on my DK who has low crit damage. Roughly speaking if you have 30% crit and 60% crit damage you average only 18% more damage so Malacath might work ok. But, that ignores the muliplicative feature of the 25% malacath bonus, which reduces the relative damage gain.

Or you could run it with a set on the Front bar and a set on the back bar (2 body, 1 jewelry and one weapon each). But then you can only have both set bonuses for certain builds.

I think it works ok for certain builds but it is not god mode by any means.

katorga

It doesn't mater

Great for proc set users, great for people in heavy armor. Not so great for classes with lots of passives or skills dependent on criticals.

It provides the same damage boost as base critical damage + 50% crit rate with no RNG. If you stats or equal or less than that it is a win. It affects proc set damage, probably the biggest thing for pvp.

But you give up Balorghs which is the most overloaded thing in the game right now.

Akinos

It doesn't mater

Mythics are good but they are not game breaking OP and def not must have. They are completely situational and build dependent.

Ragnaroek93

Proper mythic builds are always superior.

Malacath is pretty much a nobrainer for all classes without a crit dmg passive because they literally deleted crits from CP PvP with their ridiculous impen buffs...

Rianai

katorga wrote: »

Great for proc set users, great for people in heavy armor. Not so great for classes with lots of passives or skills dependent on criticals.

It provides the same damage boost as base critical damage + 50% crit rate with no RNG. If you stats or equal or less than that it is a win. It affects proc set damage, probably the biggest thing for pvp.

But you give up Balorghs which is the most overloaded thing in the game right now.

Base crit dmg in PvP is 30%, even less against impen/crit resist cp targets. 50% crit chance is also more than what most builds have. Even classes with crit passives benefit from Malacath, especially in noCP, but according to some players who actually know what they are doing, it is also very strong in CP PvP. Even on nb and templar. That's how broken it is.

The only class where mala is actually bad is stamsorc - and only because they would have to give up crit surge. And they can still benefit greatly from torc or wild hunt. Ball grps like to run snow treaders

It is also not true that you neccessarily have to give up a set bonus. It is still possible to run 2x 5p sets, a monster set and one mythic item, it just limits the set choice, since it requires sets that can be used on one bar only. But there are great options for a setup like this, so hardly a downside.

There are really not much reasons to not incorporate mythic items into a build with very few and niche exceptions (eg. bomb blade, tho i wouldn't be surprised if a mala build would work).

Lord-Otto

Proper mythic builds are always superior.

Theignson wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Malacath is breaking the PvP at the moment.

Not in CP PvP. You give up a lot to have it. First you lose all crit damage. So a NB for example would never use it. Then, you lose a set bonus. For example, you might equip only one piece of the monster set. Then, for example, if you use Balorgh, you lose all crit damage AND the balorgh weapon damage plus Balorgh penetration. That is a huge loss.

I tried Malacath with 2 potentate, a monster set, and a whole 5 piece set plus 2 masters weapons. But then you lose an entire 5 piece set bonus. I did this on my DK who has low crit damage. Roughly speaking if you have 30% crit and 60% crit damage you average only 18% more damage so Malacath might work ok. But, that ignores the muliplicative feature of the 25% malacath bonus, which reduces the relative damage gain.

Or you could run it with a set on the Front bar and a set on the back bar (2 body, 1 jewelry and one weapon each). But then you can only have both set bonuses for certain builds.

I think it works ok for certain builds but it is not god mode by any means.

No. With base impen, you now see people with 3.3k crit resist, negating standard crit damage. If you now throw Malacath on, it's like you're permanently dealing crit damage, 100% of the time. Monster sets are now also all trash, except for EG body block.

Tommy_The_Gun

It doesn't mater

As someone who PvP-ed a lot back in the day (I have maxed AW rank, if that means anything nowadays), I can say:

- 1 vs 100.
- 100 vs 1.
- Premades gank vs 1.
- Ball groups vs solo dudes.
- Emperor vs no emperor.
- Emperor with hammer vs ... anything.
- Player with DLC gear vs player with base game gear.
- Paid class vs base game class.

(I could go on like that forever lol).

Sorry to say it, but Cyro & IC PvP is anything BUT competitive. It is more like PvP sandbox. Mythic gear, or not, it won't make Cyro competitive all of the sudden if it is not competitive in its core design. Closest you can get to "fair" PvP is probably duels.

tsaescishoeshiner

It doesn't mater

Thanks to Mythic items, you can even do a 5/4/2/1 build if you can stomach the sheer disgustingness of such a non-aesthetic gear setup

Edit: With a weapon set and a non-jewelry Mythic, 5/3/2/1/1 works AND makes me marginally less nauseous due to increased set bonus efficiency

Sylosi

It doesn't mater

This game does not have competitive PvP, so it doesn't matter.

And beyond that, balance in a game like this will always be non-existent, so whether mythic items are OP or not doesn't really change anything.

mav1234

It doesn't mater

Malacaths is good but given the number of stam in no cp running Venomous I would say it isnt as popular in cyro or bgs as the forums suggest.

Ariades_swe

Proper mythic builds are always superior.

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Theignson wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Malacath is breaking the PvP at the moment.

Not in CP PvP. You give up a lot to have it. First you lose all crit damage. So a NB for example would never use it. Then, you lose a set bonus. For example, you might equip only one piece of the monster set. Then, for example, if you use Balorgh, you lose all crit damage AND the balorgh weapon damage plus Balorgh penetration. That is a huge loss.

I tried Malacath with 2 potentate, a monster set, and a whole 5 piece set plus 2 masters weapons. But then you lose an entire 5 piece set bonus. I did this on my DK who has low crit damage. Roughly speaking if you have 30% crit and 60% crit damage you average only 18% more damage so Malacath might work ok. But, that ignores the muliplicative feature of the 25% malacath bonus, which reduces the relative damage gain.

Or you could run it with a set on the Front bar and a set on the back bar (2 body, 1 jewelry and one weapon each). But then you can only have both set bonuses for certain builds.

I think it works ok for certain builds but it is not god mode by any means.

No. With base impen, you now see people with 3.3k crit resist, negating standard crit damage. If you now throw Malacath on, it's like you're permanently dealing crit damage, 100% of the time. Monster sets are now also all trash, except for EG body block.

This guy gets it.
It's also very easy to make builds with malacath and 2 monsterpieces.

Spizzie

It doesn't mater

Malacath's Band is a math trap for most people. In CP environments, it gives you closer to a 11.5% damage boost because of all of your other % damage modifiers and their multiplicative nature.

Even a Nightblade or Templar with 80% crit modifier (10% class passive, 56 points in precise strikes/elfborn) and a 50% crit rate hitting someone with 50% crit resistance is going to hit harder than if they had on Malacath. The damage disparity is even greater if the Nightblade or Templar has more crit modifiers (Shadow, Khajit, Minor Force) or if the opponent has less than 3400 crit resist. And that doesn't include the Arena Weapon or Monster set you'd have to drop to put Malacath on, further decreasing it's overall net impact. A Stamblade is going to give up all of their burst from crit damage and their 330 extra weapon damage from Master's Bow to get an 11.5% increase on their floor damage?

Simply put, Malacath's impact impact on a build is better as the number of crit chance and crit modifier bonuses goes down. Unfortunately for Necros, Nightblades, and to a lesser degree Templars, it makes fitting Malacath into your build considerably more costly.

You can definitely still make highly viable and competitive builds without Mytics. But I will say, there's no substitute for Snowtreaders on a Stamsorc. It seems like that set was designed with Stamsorcs in mind.

technohic

It doesn't mater

^Berserk from camo hunter also is a loss if you run that for it.

Beffagorn

It doesn't mater

I'd say it depends on class and CP/no-CP

Malacath's personally almost feels like a requirement for Magdens and DKs. Snowtreaders are also incredibly strong for stamsorcs.

In No-CP, if you want to absolutely minmax and play according to the meta, malacath's is a requirement due to the item also increasing damage from proc sets such as Venomous Smite or Azureblight.

Not that it matters much. The OP proc sets will soon get nerfed and Malacath's will lose the ability to increase set damage for sure. And more importantly, there's no competitive/rated pvp scene in this game anyway.

Lord-Otto

Proper mythic builds are always superior.

Spizzie wrote: »

Malacath's Band is a math trap for most people. In CP environments, it gives you closer to a 11.5% damage boost because of all of your other % damage modifiers and their multiplicative nature.

Even a Nightblade or Templar with 80% crit modifier (10% class passive, 56 points in precise strikes/elfborn) and a 50% crit rate hitting someone with 50% crit resistance is going to hit harder than if they had on Malacath. The damage disparity is even greater if the Nightblade or Templar has more crit modifiers (Shadow, Khajit, Minor Force) or if the opponent has less than 3400 crit resist. And that doesn't include the Arena Weapon or Monster set you'd have to drop to put Malacath on, further decreasing it's overall net impact. A Stamblade is going to give up all of their burst from crit damage and their 330 extra weapon damage from Master's Bow to get an 11.5% increase on their floor damage?

Simply put, Malacath's impact impact on a build is better as the number of crit chance and crit modifier bonuses goes down. Unfortunately for Necros, Nightblades, and to a lesser degree Templars, it makes fitting Malacath into your build considerably more costly.

You can definitely still make highly viable and competitive builds without Mytics. But I will say, there's no substitute for Snowtreaders on a Stamsorc. It seems like that set was designed with Stamsorcs in mind.

I very much doubt an item claiming to increase damage by 25% actually only buffs by 10%. Test it with a friend and show us the numbers, please.
3300 crit resist completely negates the base crit modifier, 50%. It's super easy to get now with natural crit resist. So you only have CP and maybe a class passive to deal higher damage. And that ONLY IF you crit. I think 50% crit chance is a realistic value for PvP. So you only get half of your crit boni on average, that's about 15%? Malacath alone is already better (until disproven, which I doubt). AND you can put additional CP into penetration and light attack damage.
What monster set do you wanna run? One piece Domi is really good. After the nerf tirades, almost all monster sets are situational, weak and suffer from bad one-piece-boni.

Theignson

It doesn't mater

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Theignson wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Malacath is breaking the PvP at the moment.

Not in CP PvP. You give up a lot to have it. First you lose all crit damage. So a NB for example would never use it. Then, you lose a set bonus. For example, you might equip only one piece of the monster set. Then, for example, if you use Balorgh, you lose all crit damage AND the balorgh weapon damage plus Balorgh penetration. That is a huge loss.

I tried Malacath with 2 potentate, a monster set, and a whole 5 piece set plus 2 masters weapons. But then you lose an entire 5 piece set bonus. I did this on my DK who has low crit damage. Roughly speaking if you have 30% crit and 60% crit damage you average only 18% more damage so Malacath might work ok. But, that ignores the muliplicative feature of the 25% malacath bonus, which reduces the relative damage gain.

Or you could run it with a set on the Front bar and a set on the back bar (2 body, 1 jewelry and one weapon each). But then you can only have both set bonuses for certain builds.

I think it works ok for certain builds but it is not god mode by any means.

No. With base impen, you now see people with 3.3k crit resist, negating standard crit damage. If you now throw Malacath on, it's like you're permanently dealing crit damage, 100% of the time. Monster sets are now also all trash, except for EG body block.

First of all, 3300 crit resist does not negate crit damage. It reduces it by 50%. I have always worn about 3k crit resist to get close to 50% mitigation and this won't change now, I am not now running 4300 crit resist but replacing impenetrable with divines to get variety in the build.
Second, the other poster was absolutely right that it isn't 25% damage increase. It is often much less. Here is the explanation/example in another post:
"*Malacath's damage bonus is additive to other base damage multipliers while cit damage bonus is multiplicative to base damage bonuses. For example, if my base damage is "5" and let's say that buffed on a CP environment I have 50% damage bonus without Malacath's, My damage will be 7.5. With Malacath's that damage will be 8.75.

The increase in this case is 1.25; (ie you add the increase from the base damage to the increase from other source. Thus you go from 7.5 to 8.75 = 7.5/8.75 = a 16% increase over the damage with no band. You dont increase the damage by 25% x 7.5 (which would be multiplicative which is what crit damage is).

There is no need to post parses, this has all been figured out long ago. I will link the post that has the definitive spreadsheet you can use to caclulate whether the band does more damage than crit for your build.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/530523/malacaths-ring-and-impen-crit-calculations

If you go through the math on the spreadsheet and want to keep arguing, you can post in the above thread.

katorga

It doesn't mater

Spizzie wrote: »

You can definitely still make highly viable and competitive builds without Mytics. But I will say, there's no substitute for Snowtreaders on a Stamsorc. It seems like that set was designed with Stamsorcs in mind.

I literally cannot unlearn sprinting on my sorc. I need to unmap the keybinds to use treaders.

You "can" use malacath though. Morph crit surge to power surge and let vigor proc it. Less than a 1/3 of the healing power, and not as easy to proc though. Combine with azureblight/sheer venom back bar.

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Spizzie wrote: »

Malacath's Band is a math trap for most people. In CP environments, it gives you closer to a 11.5% damage boost because of all of your other % damage modifiers and their multiplicative nature.

Even a Nightblade or Templar with 80% crit modifier (10% class passive, 56 points in precise strikes/elfborn) and a 50% crit rate hitting someone with 50% crit resistance is going to hit harder than if they had on Malacath. The damage disparity is even greater if the Nightblade or Templar has more crit modifiers (Shadow, Khajit, Minor Force) or if the opponent has less than 3400 crit resist. And that doesn't include the Arena Weapon or Monster set you'd have to drop to put Malacath on, further decreasing it's overall net impact. A Stamblade is going to give up all of their burst from crit damage and their 330 extra weapon damage from Master's Bow to get an 11.5% increase on their floor damage?

Simply put, Malacath's impact impact on a build is better as the number of crit chance and crit modifier bonuses goes down. Unfortunately for Necros, Nightblades, and to a lesser degree Templars, it makes fitting Malacath into your build considerably more costly.

You can definitely still make highly viable and competitive builds without Mytics. But I will say, there's no substitute for Snowtreaders on a Stamsorc. It seems like that set was designed with Stamsorcs in mind.

I very much doubt an item claiming to increase damage by 25% actually only buffs by 10%. Test it with a friend and show us the numbers, please.
3300 crit resist completely negates the base crit modifier, 50%. It's super easy to get now with natural crit resist. So you only have CP and maybe a class passive to deal higher damage. And that ONLY IF you crit. I think 50% crit chance is a realistic value for PvP. So you only get half of your crit boni on average, that's about 15%? Malacath alone is already better (until disproven, which I doubt). AND you can put additional CP into penetration and light attack damage.
What monster set do you wanna run? One piece Domi is really good. After the nerf tirades, almost all monster sets are situational, weak and suffer from bad one-piece-boni.

Diminishing returns only applies to multiplicative reductions so you can never reach 100% reduction. Multiplicative increases are potentially infinite.

Lord-Otto

Proper mythic builds are always superior.

Theignson wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Theignson wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Malacath is breaking the PvP at the moment.

Not in CP PvP. You give up a lot to have it. First you lose all crit damage. So a NB for example would never use it. Then, you lose a set bonus. For example, you might equip only one piece of the monster set. Then, for example, if you use Balorgh, you lose all crit damage AND the balorgh weapon damage plus Balorgh penetration. That is a huge loss.

I tried Malacath with 2 potentate, a monster set, and a whole 5 piece set plus 2 masters weapons. But then you lose an entire 5 piece set bonus. I did this on my DK who has low crit damage. Roughly speaking if you have 30% crit and 60% crit damage you average only 18% more damage so Malacath might work ok. But, that ignores the muliplicative feature of the 25% malacath bonus, which reduces the relative damage gain.

Or you could run it with a set on the Front bar and a set on the back bar (2 body, 1 jewelry and one weapon each). But then you can only have both set bonuses for certain builds.

I think it works ok for certain builds but it is not god mode by any means.

No. With base impen, you now see people with 3.3k crit resist, negating standard crit damage. If you now throw Malacath on, it's like you're permanently dealing crit damage, 100% of the time. Monster sets are now also all trash, except for EG body block.

First of all, 3300 crit resist does not negate crit damage. It reduces it by 50%. I have always worn about 3k crit resist to get close to 50% mitigation and this won't change now, I am not now running 4300 crit resist but replacing impenetrable with divines to get variety in the build.
Second, the other poster was absolutely right that it isn't 25% damage increase. It is often much less. Here is the explanation/example in another post:
"*Malacath's damage bonus is additive to other base damage multipliers while cit damage bonus is multiplicative to base damage bonuses. For example, if my base damage is "5" and let's say that buffed on a CP environment I have 50% damage bonus without Malacath's, My damage will be 7.5. With Malacath's that damage will be 8.75.

The increase in this case is 1.25; (ie you add the increase from the base damage to the increase from other source. Thus you go from 7.5 to 8.75 = 7.5/8.75 = a 16% increase over the damage with no band. You dont increase the damage by 25% x 7.5 (which would be multiplicative which is what crit damage is).

There is no need to post parses, this has all been figured out long ago. I will link the post that has the definitive spreadsheet you can use to caclulate whether the band does more damage than crit for your build.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/530523/malacaths-ring-and-impen-crit-calculations

If you go through the math on the spreadsheet and want to keep arguing, you can post in the above thread.

Nah. I'll stay in this thread.
I am familiar with that spreadsheet. And Malacath increases damage. Yes, 3.3k crit resist negates natural crit bonus, it even says in the excel file. A couple percent due to calculation don't change the core idea that standard crits are effectively neutered these days. Speaking of, I am also aware of how Malacath doesn't multiply all damage by 1.25. but 16% is noticeably more than 11%, isn't it?
I believe in actually testing numbers. The game doesn't care for your paper math.

Theignson

It doesn't mater

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Theignson wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Theignson wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Malacath is breaking the PvP at the moment.

Not in CP PvP. You give up a lot to have it. First you lose all crit damage. So a NB for example would never use it. Then, you lose a set bonus. For example, you might equip only one piece of the monster set. Then, for example, if you use Balorgh, you lose all crit damage AND the balorgh weapon damage plus Balorgh penetration. That is a huge loss.

I tried Malacath with 2 potentate, a monster set, and a whole 5 piece set plus 2 masters weapons. But then you lose an entire 5 piece set bonus. I did this on my DK who has low crit damage. Roughly speaking if you have 30% crit and 60% crit damage you average only 18% more damage so Malacath might work ok. But, that ignores the muliplicative feature of the 25% malacath bonus, which reduces the relative damage gain.

Or you could run it with a set on the Front bar and a set on the back bar (2 body, 1 jewelry and one weapon each). But then you can only have both set bonuses for certain builds.

I think it works ok for certain builds but it is not god mode by any means.

No. With base impen, you now see people with 3.3k crit resist, negating standard crit damage. If you now throw Malacath on, it's like you're permanently dealing crit damage, 100% of the time. Monster sets are now also all trash, except for EG body block.

First of all, 3300 crit resist does not negate crit damage. It reduces it by 50%. I have always worn about 3k crit resist to get close to 50% mitigation and this won't change now, I am not now running 4300 crit resist but replacing impenetrable with divines to get variety in the build.
Second, the other poster was absolutely right that it isn't 25% damage increase. It is often much less. Here is the explanation/example in another post:
"*Malacath's damage bonus is additive to other base damage multipliers while cit damage bonus is multiplicative to base damage bonuses. For example, if my base damage is "5" and let's say that buffed on a CP environment I have 50% damage bonus without Malacath's, My damage will be 7.5. With Malacath's that damage will be 8.75.

The increase in this case is 1.25; (ie you add the increase from the base damage to the increase from other source. Thus you go from 7.5 to 8.75 = 7.5/8.75 = a 16% increase over the damage with no band. You dont increase the damage by 25% x 7.5 (which would be multiplicative which is what crit damage is).

There is no need to post parses, this has all been figured out long ago. I will link the post that has the definitive spreadsheet you can use to caclulate whether the band does more damage than crit for your build.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/530523/malacaths-ring-and-impen-crit-calculations

If you go through the math on the spreadsheet and want to keep arguing, you can post in the above thread.

Nah. I'll stay in this thread.
I am familiar with that spreadsheet. And Malacath increases damage. Yes, 3.3k crit resist negates natural crit bonus, it even says in the excel file. A couple percent due to calculation don't change the core idea that standard crits are effectively neutered these days. Speaking of, I am also aware of how Malacath doesn't multiply all damage by 1.25. but 16% is noticeably more than 11%, isn't it?
I believe in actually testing numbers. The game doesn't care for your paper math.

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Theignson wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Theignson wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Malacath is breaking the PvP at the moment.

Not in CP PvP. You give up a lot to have it. First you lose all crit damage. So a NB for example would never use it. Then, you lose a set bonus. For example, you might equip only one piece of the monster set. Then, for example, if you use Balorgh, you lose all crit damage AND the balorgh weapon damage plus Balorgh penetration. That is a huge loss.

I tried Malacath with 2 potentate, a monster set, and a whole 5 piece set plus 2 masters weapons. But then you lose an entire 5 piece set bonus. I did this on my DK who has low crit damage. Roughly speaking if you have 30% crit and 60% crit damage you average only 18% more damage so Malacath might work ok. But, that ignores the muliplicative feature of the 25% malacath bonus, which reduces the relative damage gain.

Or you could run it with a set on the Front bar and a set on the back bar (2 body, 1 jewelry and one weapon each). But then you can only have both set bonuses for certain builds.

I think it works ok for certain builds but it is not god mode by any means.

No. With base impen, you now see people with 3.3k crit resist, negating standard crit damage. If you now throw Malacath on, it's like you're permanently dealing crit damage, 100% of the time. Monster sets are now also all trash, except for EG body block.

First of all, 3300 crit resist does not negate crit damage. It reduces it by 50%. I have always worn about 3k crit resist to get close to 50% mitigation and this won't change now, I am not now running 4300 crit resist but replacing impenetrable with divines to get variety in the build.
Second, the other poster was absolutely right that it isn't 25% damage increase. It is often much less. Here is the explanation/example in another post:
"*Malacath's damage bonus is additive to other base damage multipliers while cit damage bonus is multiplicative to base damage bonuses. For example, if my base damage is "5" and let's say that buffed on a CP environment I have 50% damage bonus without Malacath's, My damage will be 7.5. With Malacath's that damage will be 8.75.

The increase in this case is 1.25; (ie you add the increase from the base damage to the increase from other source. Thus you go from 7.5 to 8.75 = 7.5/8.75 = a 16% increase over the damage with no band. You dont increase the damage by 25% x 7.5 (which would be multiplicative which is what crit damage is).

There is no need to post parses, this has all been figured out long ago. I will link the post that has the definitive spreadsheet you can use to caclulate whether the band does more damage than crit for your build.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/530523/malacaths-ring-and-impen-crit-calculations

If you go through the math on the spreadsheet and want to keep arguing, you can post in the above thread.

Nah. I'll stay in this thread.
I am familiar with that spreadsheet. And Malacath increases damage. Yes, 3.3k crit resist negates natural crit bonus, it even says in the excel file. A couple percent due to calculation don't change the core idea that standard crits are effectively neutered these days. Speaking of, I am also aware of how Malacath doesn't multiply all damage by 1.25. but 16% is noticeably more than 11%, isn't it?
I believe in actually testing numbers. The game doesn't care for your paper math.

If by "negate" you mean "reduces by 50%", then I totally agree with you! However, that would be a pretty strange way to define "negate". If you mean "completely eliminates" then you are just wrong. Critical resistance reduces crit damage by a simple equation, and 3300 crit resistance eliminates 50% of crit damage. If you think otherwise you are mistaken. The spreadsheet shows the 3300 crit resistance and 50% reduction in the cell next to it.

The example I gave was for the purpose of making it simple. Of course, it is also calculated by an algebraic equation. Maybe you never took algebra, but you simply change the variable in the equation and you get a different result. It's easy enough to see that if base damage is increased more than 50% in the equation, the percent damage attributed to Malacath will shrink and yes, even sometimes below 10%.

NyassaV

Proper mythic builds are always superior.

If the malacath ring made it so you couldn't crit heal it would be balanced. other than that it's behind a paywall so ESO sucks.

LeifErickson

Theignson wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Theignson wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Theignson wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Malacath is breaking the PvP at the moment.

Not in CP PvP. You give up a lot to have it. First you lose all crit damage. So a NB for example would never use it. Then, you lose a set bonus. For example, you might equip only one piece of the monster set. Then, for example, if you use Balorgh, you lose all crit damage AND the balorgh weapon damage plus Balorgh penetration. That is a huge loss.

I tried Malacath with 2 potentate, a monster set, and a whole 5 piece set plus 2 masters weapons. But then you lose an entire 5 piece set bonus. I did this on my DK who has low crit damage. Roughly speaking if you have 30% crit and 60% crit damage you average only 18% more damage so Malacath might work ok. But, that ignores the muliplicative feature of the 25% malacath bonus, which reduces the relative damage gain.

Or you could run it with a set on the Front bar and a set on the back bar (2 body, 1 jewelry and one weapon each). But then you can only have both set bonuses for certain builds.

I think it works ok for certain builds but it is not god mode by any means.

No. With base impen, you now see people with 3.3k crit resist, negating standard crit damage. If you now throw Malacath on, it's like you're permanently dealing crit damage, 100% of the time. Monster sets are now also all trash, except for EG body block.

First of all, 3300 crit resist does not negate crit damage. It reduces it by 50%. I have always worn about 3k crit resist to get close to 50% mitigation and this won't change now, I am not now running 4300 crit resist but replacing impenetrable with divines to get variety in the build.
Second, the other poster was absolutely right that it isn't 25% damage increase. It is often much less. Here is the explanation/example in another post:
"*Malacath's damage bonus is additive to other base damage multipliers while cit damage bonus is multiplicative to base damage bonuses. For example, if my base damage is "5" and let's say that buffed on a CP environment I have 50% damage bonus without Malacath's, My damage will be 7.5. With Malacath's that damage will be 8.75.

The increase in this case is 1.25; (ie you add the increase from the base damage to the increase from other source. Thus you go from 7.5 to 8.75 = 7.5/8.75 = a 16% increase over the damage with no band. You dont increase the damage by 25% x 7.5 (which would be multiplicative which is what crit damage is).

There is no need to post parses, this has all been figured out long ago. I will link the post that has the definitive spreadsheet you can use to caclulate whether the band does more damage than crit for your build.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/530523/malacaths-ring-and-impen-crit-calculations

If you go through the math on the spreadsheet and want to keep arguing, you can post in the above thread.

Nah. I'll stay in this thread.
I am familiar with that spreadsheet. And Malacath increases damage. Yes, 3.3k crit resist negates natural crit bonus, it even says in the excel file. A couple percent due to calculation don't change the core idea that standard crits are effectively neutered these days. Speaking of, I am also aware of how Malacath doesn't multiply all damage by 1.25. but 16% is noticeably more than 11%, isn't it?
I believe in actually testing numbers. The game doesn't care for your paper math.

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Theignson wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Theignson wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Malacath is breaking the PvP at the moment.

Not in CP PvP. You give up a lot to have it. First you lose all crit damage. So a NB for example would never use it. Then, you lose a set bonus. For example, you might equip only one piece of the monster set. Then, for example, if you use Balorgh, you lose all crit damage AND the balorgh weapon damage plus Balorgh penetration. That is a huge loss.

I tried Malacath with 2 potentate, a monster set, and a whole 5 piece set plus 2 masters weapons. But then you lose an entire 5 piece set bonus. I did this on my DK who has low crit damage. Roughly speaking if you have 30% crit and 60% crit damage you average only 18% more damage so Malacath might work ok. But, that ignores the muliplicative feature of the 25% malacath bonus, which reduces the relative damage gain.

Or you could run it with a set on the Front bar and a set on the back bar (2 body, 1 jewelry and one weapon each). But then you can only have both set bonuses for certain builds.

I think it works ok for certain builds but it is not god mode by any means.

No. With base impen, you now see people with 3.3k crit resist, negating standard crit damage. If you now throw Malacath on, it's like you're permanently dealing crit damage, 100% of the time. Monster sets are now also all trash, except for EG body block.

First of all, 3300 crit resist does not negate crit damage. It reduces it by 50%. I have always worn about 3k crit resist to get close to 50% mitigation and this won't change now, I am not now running 4300 crit resist but replacing impenetrable with divines to get variety in the build.
Second, the other poster was absolutely right that it isn't 25% damage increase. It is often much less. Here is the explanation/example in another post:
"*Malacath's damage bonus is additive to other base damage multipliers while cit damage bonus is multiplicative to base damage bonuses. For example, if my base damage is "5" and let's say that buffed on a CP environment I have 50% damage bonus without Malacath's, My damage will be 7.5. With Malacath's that damage will be 8.75.

The increase in this case is 1.25; (ie you add the increase from the base damage to the increase from other source. Thus you go from 7.5 to 8.75 = 7.5/8.75 = a 16% increase over the damage with no band. You dont increase the damage by 25% x 7.5 (which would be multiplicative which is what crit damage is).

There is no need to post parses, this has all been figured out long ago. I will link the post that has the definitive spreadsheet you can use to caclulate whether the band does more damage than crit for your build.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/530523/malacaths-ring-and-impen-crit-calculations

If you go through the math on the spreadsheet and want to keep arguing, you can post in the above thread.

Nah. I'll stay in this thread.
I am familiar with that spreadsheet. And Malacath increases damage. Yes, 3.3k crit resist negates natural crit bonus, it even says in the excel file. A couple percent due to calculation don't change the core idea that standard crits are effectively neutered these days. Speaking of, I am also aware of how Malacath doesn't multiply all damage by 1.25. but 16% is noticeably more than 11%, isn't it?
I believe in actually testing numbers. The game doesn't care for your paper math.

If by "negate" you mean "reduces by 50%", then I totally agree with you! However, that would be a pretty strange way to define "negate". If you mean "completely eliminates" then you are just wrong. Critical resistance reduces crit damage by a simple equation, and 3300 crit resistance eliminates 50% of crit damage. If you think otherwise you are mistaken. The spreadsheet shows the 3300 crit resistance and 50% reduction in the cell next to it.

The example I gave was for the purpose of making it simple. Of course, it is also calculated by an algebraic equation. Maybe you never took algebra, but you simply change the variable in the equation and you get a different result. It's easy enough to see that if base damage is increased more than 50% in the equation, the percent damage attributed to Malacath will shrink and yes, even sometimes below 10%.

I think what he's saying is 3300 crit resist negates the base crit modifier which is 50%. Base crit modifier is 50% extra damage so 3300 crit resist would negate that 50% extra damage. So basically if a non crit is 1000 and a crit with 50% crit modifier is 1500, then a person with 3300 crit resist would take 1000 from a non crit and 1000 from a crit. Unless I'm reading it wrong, this is exactly what the spreadsheet is saying. It's saying 3300 crit resist negates that 50% base crit modifier.

Whether malacath is op or not is another discussion. I think it's bis if you make a build around it. But making a build around crit is also good. When on my magplar build I hit 50%+ crit chance with a potential for 115%+ extra crit damage in damage windows it's hard to justify running malacath.

Kadoin

Proper mythic builds are always superior.

Let's not even joke around here...