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Vampirism feels like it should now. Great job.
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Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Just to add ... mist form is really buggy in PvP as well. It sometimes doesn't work in combat and I need to press it twice for it to work.
I've noticed this as well. Sometimes it doesn't register when you go to activate it. It's rare enough that's it's not a major issue in my opinion. But it would be nice if they could fix it.
2 -
SlimeBro1✭✭✭✭When I first tried it last year 2 things seemed really off to me. I needed to feed to become LESS of a vampire and there were only 2 active skills. This overhaul is spot on. I just murdered some chick sweeping a stable bc I was about to drop below stage four, it was super.
I like the new Vampire as well. My main character is a lot more fun and interesting to play as a result of it.
Be prepared for a lot of disagreement though, because a lot of people don't like it for some reason. I'm not sure why, because it was nothing but an improvement over the old Vampire.
But if you read this thread you will understand why people dislike the new vampire? Unless you're just choosing to not read why people disagree. Thinking it is nothing but an improvement over the old one is a bit naive, wouldn't you say? It has much, much room for improvement.Edited by SlimeBro1 on July 6, 2020 1:05AM7 -
Vevvev✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
I like the new Vampire as well. My main character is a lot more fun and interesting to play as a result of it.
Be prepared for a lot of disagreement though, because a lot of people don't like it for some reason. I'm not sure why, because it was nothing but an improvement over the old Vampire.
Like most things in this game people complain about its never for one single reason. People like myself who enjoyed playing vampires from the previous games enjoyed the old version of vampire and wanted that play style to be broadened. We chose to become vampires in this game because we wanted to relive the experience from the single player games in an online environment. As you can guess we were looking forward to a vampire rework that added more skills and made the play style more fun, but that's not what happened. We got new skills that have never existed in lore before like Blood Frenzy, and then told "Blood Frenzy ticks all the boxes of what its like to be a vampire!". News flash.... it doesn't.
What made things even worse is then the feeding reversal was implemented without a cosmetic change, a blatant retcon being used to explain things, and then they lessened the effects of fire damage, slapped on a new debuff (The non-vampire cost increase) for whatever reason, and then decided stage 4 should punish players with -100% health regeneration. They say feeding makes you 'stronger' but the stage passives make that statement hard to believe. Sure the passives are powerful but are they really worth the sustain debuff and -100% health regen if you decided to go full stage 4? I still try to answer that question today.
As for the other complaints you can read them in this thread. The removal of class identity as people all use Blood for Blood as a magic damage spammable, skills that don't work or are situational at best, and the list goes on. I've adapted my build to the new vampire and have made it work, but I really think ZOS should rethink how they're going about this. The vampires don't feel like vampires at all.PC NA - Ceyanna Ashton - Breton Vampire MagDK12 -
SlimeBro1✭✭✭✭
I like the new Vampire as well. My main character is a lot more fun and interesting to play as a result of it.
Be prepared for a lot of disagreement though, because a lot of people don't like it for some reason. I'm not sure why, because it was nothing but an improvement over the old Vampire.
Like most things in this game people complain about its never for one single reason. People like myself who enjoyed playing vampires from the previous games enjoyed the old version of vampire and wanted that play style to be broadened. We chose to become vampires in this game because we wanted to relive the experience from the single player games in an online environment. As you can guess we were looking forward to a vampire rework that added more skills and made the play style more fun, but that's not what happened. We got new skills that have never existed in lore before like Blood Frenzy, and then told "Blood Frenzy ticks all the boxes of what its like to be a vampire!". News flash.... it doesn't.
What made things even worse is then the feeding reversal was implemented without a cosmetic change, a blatant retcon being used to explain things, and then they lessened the effects of fire damage, slapped on a new debuff (The non-vampire cost increase) for whatever reason, and then decided stage 4 should punish players with -100% health regeneration. They say feeding makes you 'stronger' but the stage passives make that statement hard to believe. Sure the passives are powerful but are they really worth the sustain debuff and -100% health regen if you decided to go full stage 4? I still try to answer that question today.
As for the other complaints you can read them in this thread. The removal of class identity as people all use Blood for Blood as a magic damage spammable, skills that don't work or are situational at best, and the list goes on. I've adapted my build to the new vampire and have made it work, but I really think ZOS should rethink how they're going about this. The vampires don't feel like vampires at all.
My friends and I were saying they should replace blood frenzy with the gap closer if they plan on keeping a melee spammable. I also personally don't like the fact that the spammable has no ranged option. As a necromancer, all of my stuff is ranged and I use a staff if Im magicka. Which is what vamps build for as far as I know. So it makes little sense as to why I'd want to be in melee range most of the time to deal damage?
I think they should also rework that one magicka morph into a long range version of evisercate or some other long range thing. Or hey, maybe even throw evisercate onto the scion form as a light/heavy attack? And give us a new spammable ability entirely?3 -
Fur_like_snow✭✭✭✭✭
✭When I first tried it last year 2 things seemed really off to me. I needed to feed to become LESS of a vampire and there were only 2 active skills. This overhaul is spot on. I just murdered some chick sweeping a stable bc I was about to drop below stage four, it was super.
I like the new Vampire as well. My main character is a lot more fun and interesting to play as a result of it.
Be prepared for a lot of disagreement though, because a lot of people don't like it for some reason. I'm not sure why, because it was nothing but an improvement over the old Vampire.
Have you not read any of the vampire threads during or after PTS or even the thread you’re replying in? It’s spelled out pretty clearly what the issues are.Edited by Fur_like_snow on July 6, 2020 1:15AM5 -
SlimeBro1✭✭✭✭Fur_like_snow wrote: »When I first tried it last year 2 things seemed really off to me. I needed to feed to become LESS of a vampire and there were only 2 active skills. This overhaul is spot on. I just murdered some chick sweeping a stable bc I was about to drop below stage four, it was super.
I like the new Vampire as well. My main character is a lot more fun and interesting to play as a result of it.
Be prepared for a lot of disagreement though, because a lot of people don't like it for some reason. I'm not sure why, because it was nothing but an improvement over the old Vampire.
Have you not read any of the vampire threads during or after PTS or even the thread you’re replying in? It’s spelled out pretty clearly what the issues are.
I do find it interesting he is claiming to have 'no idea' why people are disagreeing about the vamp rework, in a thread full of people that are explaining their issues with it.
O:2 -
Stx✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I agree the new vampire is better than the old. The old tree sucked, and everyone just took it for OP passives.
The new skills are cool. The spammable is BIS for every magicka build and honestly needs a nerf. The other skills are situationally very useful.3 -
SlimeBro1✭✭✭✭I agree the new vampire is better than the old. The old tree sucked, and everyone just took it for OP passives.
The new skills are cool. The spammable is BIS for every magicka build and honestly needs a nerf. The other skills are situationally very useful.
Take a moment to consider why the spammable is BIS.
It's because of the design of the skill is it not? It's the only magicka spammable in the entire game that is melee and provides no other use. No passives, debuffs, dots, anything. Just a straight on melee raw damage attack. Thus why its numbers are so high.
Surely you can see how if the numbers are adjusted this skill is never going to be used? Considering magicka users/those that use this skill wear light armor and have no business being in anyone's face.
The solution here would be to re-design the skill, right? Make it a spammable that is something other than raw damage at a melee range.Edited by SlimeBro1 on July 6, 2020 3:09AM1 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭When I first tried it last year 2 things seemed really off to me. I needed to feed to become LESS of a vampire and there were only 2 active skills. This overhaul is spot on. I just murdered some chick sweeping a stable bc I was about to drop below stage four, it was super.
I like the new Vampire as well. My main character is a lot more fun and interesting to play as a result of it.
Be prepared for a lot of disagreement though, because a lot of people don't like it for some reason. I'm not sure why, because it was nothing but an improvement over the old Vampire.
But if you read this thread you will understand why people dislike the new vampire? Unless you're just choosing to not read why people disagree. Thinking it is nothing but an improvement over the old one is a bit naive, wouldn't you say? It has much, much room for improvement.
Just because there is room for improvement (which is always the case) that doesn't mean it's not an improvement over the old one. So there is nothing "naive" about it (I don't think you know what that word means). The new Vampire is just better than the old one. Period. And nothing I have read in this thread even comes close to changing my mind about that.
Edited by Jeremy on July 6, 2020 3:19AM2 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
I like the new Vampire as well. My main character is a lot more fun and interesting to play as a result of it.
Be prepared for a lot of disagreement though, because a lot of people don't like it for some reason. I'm not sure why, because it was nothing but an improvement over the old Vampire.
Like most things in this game people complain about its never for one single reason. People like myself who enjoyed playing vampires from the previous games enjoyed the old version of vampire and wanted that play style to be broadened. We chose to become vampires in this game because we wanted to relive the experience from the single player games in an online environment. As you can guess we were looking forward to a vampire rework that added more skills and made the play style more fun, but that's not what happened. We got new skills that have never existed in lore before like Blood Frenzy, and then told "Blood Frenzy ticks all the boxes of what its like to be a vampire!". News flash.... it doesn't.
What made things even worse is then the feeding reversal was implemented without a cosmetic change, a blatant retcon being used to explain things, and then they lessened the effects of fire damage, slapped on a new debuff (The non-vampire cost increase) for whatever reason, and then decided stage 4 should punish players with -100% health regeneration. They say feeding makes you 'stronger' but the stage passives make that statement hard to believe. Sure the passives are powerful but are they really worth the sustain debuff and -100% health regen if you decided to go full stage 4? I still try to answer that question today.
As for the other complaints you can read them in this thread. The removal of class identity as people all use Blood for Blood as a magic damage spammable, skills that don't work or are situational at best, and the list goes on. I've adapted my build to the new vampire and have made it work, but I really think ZOS should rethink how they're going about this. The vampires don't feel like vampires at all.
Health regeneration has always sucked at stage 4 Vampire. That is not different from the old one.
The rest of your complaints are mostly just cosmetic in nature or have more to do with this "identity" argument as a Vampire - which isn't what I am referring to or going to get into. That's beside the point I'm making as to whether or not the skill line is better from a game play perspective than it was - which it unquestionably is.
Now you can discuss ways to improve it - and that's fine and I have no problem with that. But this idea that the Vampire skill line has not gotten better when it undeniably has seems just silly to me.Edited by Jeremy on July 6, 2020 3:27AM2 -
Stx✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I agree the new vampire is better than the old. The old tree sucked, and everyone just took it for OP passives.
The new skills are cool. The spammable is BIS for every magicka build and honestly needs a nerf. The other skills are situationally very useful.
Take a moment to consider why the spammable is BIS.
It's because of the design of the skill is it not? It's the only magicka spammable in the entire game that is melee and provides no other use. No passives, debuffs, dots, anything. Just a straight on melee raw damage attack. Thus why its numbers are so high.
Surely you can see how if the numbers are adjusted this skill is never going to be used? Considering magicka users/those that use this skill wear light armor and have no business being in anyone's face.
The solution here would be to re-design the skill, right? Make it a spammable that is something other than raw damage at a melee range.
Eh, no.
It's used because it increases your sustain by a ton due to the skill only costing a trivial amount of health. The other morph which costs magicka is on par with other skills like elemental weapon.1 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Fur_like_snow wrote: »When I first tried it last year 2 things seemed really off to me. I needed to feed to become LESS of a vampire and there were only 2 active skills. This overhaul is spot on. I just murdered some chick sweeping a stable bc I was about to drop below stage four, it was super.
I like the new Vampire as well. My main character is a lot more fun and interesting to play as a result of it.
Be prepared for a lot of disagreement though, because a lot of people don't like it for some reason. I'm not sure why, because it was nothing but an improvement over the old Vampire.
Have you not read any of the vampire threads during or after PTS or even the thread you’re replying in? It’s spelled out pretty clearly what the issues are.
I do find it interesting he is claiming to have 'no idea' why people are disagreeing about the vamp rework, in a thread full of people that are explaining their issues with it.
O:
Because nothing in this thread effectively explains why the new Vampire tree isn't better than the old Vampire tree.
Pretty simple.
So I'm not sure what you find so "interesting" about it. Some people are dissatisfied with it and have argued why. But that's a lot different than actually explaining why the new tree is worse off than the old one. And I know why they haven't been able explain it. Because it isn't.Edited by Jeremy on July 6, 2020 3:35AM2 -
Vevvev✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
Health regeneration has always sucked at stage 4 Vampire. That is not different from the old one.
The rest of your complaints are mostly just cosmetic in nature or have more to do with this "identity" argument as a Vampire - which isn't what I am referring to or going to get into. That's beside the point I'm making as to whether or not the skill line is better from a game play perspective than it was - which it unquestionably is.
Now you can discuss ways to improve it - and that's fine and I have no problem with that. But this idea that the Vampire skill line has not gotten better when it undeniably has seems just silly to me.
Obviously we don't agree but I will have to correct you on the first thing about the health regeneration at stage 4 sucking.
Unnatural Resistance is a passive that made the health regeneration debuff almost non-existant.
https://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Unnatural+Resistance
"Reduces the severity of the Health Recovery determent in Vampirism stages 2 through 4. Stage 2 no longer reduces your Health Recovery. Stage 3 reduces Health Recovery by 25%. Stage 4 reduces Health Recovery by 50%."
With that passive the stage 4 debuff went from -75% to -50%. It was half of what it is now, but that's actually not what I'm complaining about. Its literally at 0%... you stub your toe and you have to get off your mount and heal. This also adds an extra action for every single trash mob encounter and is honestly the most annoying thing ever. I wouldn't mind it sitting at -90% because it'd be something.PC NA - Ceyanna Ashton - Breton Vampire MagDK0 -
SlimeBro1✭✭✭✭Fur_like_snow wrote: »When I first tried it last year 2 things seemed really off to me. I needed to feed to become LESS of a vampire and there were only 2 active skills. This overhaul is spot on. I just murdered some chick sweeping a stable bc I was about to drop below stage four, it was super.
I like the new Vampire as well. My main character is a lot more fun and interesting to play as a result of it.
Be prepared for a lot of disagreement though, because a lot of people don't like it for some reason. I'm not sure why, because it was nothing but an improvement over the old Vampire.
Have you not read any of the vampire threads during or after PTS or even the thread you’re replying in? It’s spelled out pretty clearly what the issues are.
I do find it interesting he is claiming to have 'no idea' why people are disagreeing about the vamp rework, in a thread full of people that are explaining their issues with it.
O:
Because nothing in this thread effectively explains why the new Vampire tree isn't better than the old Vampire tree.
Pretty simple.
So I'm not sure what you find so "interesting" about it. Some people are dissatisfied with it and have argued why. But that's a lot different than actually explaining why the new tree is worse off than the old one. And I know why they haven't been able explain it. Because it isn't.
But people have explained why it is worse.
Are we reading the same thread? Have you not seen all of the other threads made about this topic?1 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I hate the changes to vampirism
I never used any vampire skills on my characters, vampirism was only for the looks. My two vampires were looking so good at stage 4...
After Greymoor, they stay on stage 1 and look much worse without their yellow feral eyes; they still don't use any vampire skills, and on top of this they always take additional damage from fire and have cost of all their skills increased... It's so stupid.
It feels like I've lost two of my belowed characters :'( I wish we could have skins for different vampirism stages in our Collections (as reward for Vampirism Master, or from crown store) - I would simply cure my vampires, and use stage 4 skins on them. Just to have same looks as they had for years
You always took a significant increase in fire damage at stage 4. But the skill cost increase is new. So I'll concede if you only used Vampire because you liked the skin at stage 4 I can understand why you would not like these changes. But for Vampires who actually want to incorporate their skills into their character's game play this was a definite improvement and I don't understand how it could be said otherwise. Now this is just my opinion of course, like most of what I post. Some people may prefer a weaker selection of skills and less control over what stage they play in. I don't understand why they would. But hey, maybe they do. But in your specific case I get your point even if I still think it's a positive change for the skill tree to actually be used for its skills and not just its cosmetic appeal.2 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Fur_like_snow wrote: »When I first tried it last year 2 things seemed really off to me. I needed to feed to become LESS of a vampire and there were only 2 active skills. This overhaul is spot on. I just murdered some chick sweeping a stable bc I was about to drop below stage four, it was super.
I like the new Vampire as well. My main character is a lot more fun and interesting to play as a result of it.
Be prepared for a lot of disagreement though, because a lot of people don't like it for some reason. I'm not sure why, because it was nothing but an improvement over the old Vampire.
Have you not read any of the vampire threads during or after PTS or even the thread you’re replying in? It’s spelled out pretty clearly what the issues are.
I do find it interesting he is claiming to have 'no idea' why people are disagreeing about the vamp rework, in a thread full of people that are explaining their issues with it.
O:
Because nothing in this thread effectively explains why the new Vampire tree isn't better than the old Vampire tree.
Pretty simple.
So I'm not sure what you find so "interesting" about it. Some people are dissatisfied with it and have argued why. But that's a lot different than actually explaining why the new tree is worse off than the old one. And I know why they haven't been able explain it. Because it isn't.
But people have explained why it is worse.
Are we reading the same thread? Have you not seen all of the other threads made about this topic?
They have attempted to explain it. But very little of it has made any sense to me as to why the old Vampire was somehow better than the new one - at least in terms of actual game play - which is what I meant in my post. Perhaps I could have been a little more clear about that in hindsight.
0 -
SlimeBro1✭✭✭✭I agree the new vampire is better than the old. The old tree sucked, and everyone just took it for OP passives.
The new skills are cool. The spammable is BIS for every magicka build and honestly needs a nerf. The other skills are situationally very useful.
Take a moment to consider why the spammable is BIS.
It's because of the design of the skill is it not? It's the only magicka spammable in the entire game that is melee and provides no other use. No passives, debuffs, dots, anything. Just a straight on melee raw damage attack. Thus why its numbers are so high.
Surely you can see how if the numbers are adjusted this skill is never going to be used? Considering magicka users/those that use this skill wear light armor and have no business being in anyone's face.
The solution here would be to re-design the skill, right? Make it a spammable that is something other than raw damage at a melee range.
Eh, no.
It's used because it increases your sustain by a ton due to the skill only costing a trivial amount of health. The other morph which costs magicka is on par with other skills like elemental weapon.
If the skill gets to where it does less damage than my normal class spammable, why would I use it since it provides no other effects than raw damage at a melee range?
Would I use it because of sustain? When sustain already isn't an issue?
0 -
ZaroktheImmortal✭✭✭✭✭
✭The boost to non vamp abilities cost makes it harder to make a build not specifically using vampire abilities and there is only so many also the abilities are more targeted at magika dps role so unless you're that well they're not that useful. They took away regeneration to stamina and magika. Abilities are mostly magika except one morph that can use health but I'm pretty sure still deals magika damage. By stage 4 you literally have zero health recovery so between fights you better have a self heal that doesn't require enemies or potions. The stage 4 sprinting to turn invisible is fun to use but hardly seems worth the side effects. For even a healer role it doesn't seem like vampirism is a good thing since there are no vampire line abilities as a healer.2 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
Health regeneration has always sucked at stage 4 Vampire. That is not different from the old one.
The rest of your complaints are mostly just cosmetic in nature or have more to do with this "identity" argument as a Vampire - which isn't what I am referring to or going to get into. That's beside the point I'm making as to whether or not the skill line is better from a game play perspective than it was - which it unquestionably is.
Now you can discuss ways to improve it - and that's fine and I have no problem with that. But this idea that the Vampire skill line has not gotten better when it undeniably has seems just silly to me.
Obviously we don't agree but I will have to correct you on the first thing about the health regeneration at stage 4 sucking.
Unnatural Resistance is a passive that made the health regeneration debuff almost non-existant.
https://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Unnatural+Resistance
"Reduces the severity of the Health Recovery determent in Vampirism stages 2 through 4. Stage 2 no longer reduces your Health Recovery. Stage 3 reduces Health Recovery by 25%. Stage 4 reduces Health Recovery by 50%."
With that passive the stage 4 debuff went from -75% to -50%. It was half of what it is now, but that's actually not what I'm complaining about. Its literally at 0%... you stub your toe and you have to get off your mount and heal. This also adds an extra action for every single trash mob encounter and is honestly the most annoying thing ever. I wouldn't mind it sitting at -90% because it'd be something.
I still think -50% health regeneration sucks. So from my perspective you're not correcting me. I take your point. But I still don't understand why any build that focused on health regeneration would have wanted to become a stage 4 Vampire under the old system. So I don't get why that makes such a difference to you, especially considering it's so much easier now for Vampires to simply stay in stage 1 (where there is no health regeneration penalty) and use their skills as much as they want. So if anything - I would argue the new tree has been a huge buff to Vampires that wanted to make use of their health regeneration (that's the kind of Vampire I play btw - so I do know something about this). You can now actually have good health regeneration while using Vampire Skills - which is something you could not do under the old system.Edited by Jeremy on July 6, 2020 4:40AM1 -
Vevvev✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
I still think -50% health regeneration sucks. So from my perspective you're not correcting me. I take your point. But I still don't understand why any build that focused on health regeneration would have wanted to become a stage 4 Vampire under the old system. So I don't understand why that makes such a difference to you, especially considering it's so much easier now for Vampires to simply stay in stage 1 (where there is no health regeneration penalty) and use their skills as much as they want. So if anything - the new Vampire has been a huge buff to Vampire builds that wanted to make use of health regeneration (I know because I play one ^^).
First off you're horribly mistaken. Stage 1 actually has -10% health recovery right now as opposed to the old system that had -0% at stage 1 and 2.
What if I also told you the reason the Disastrously Bloody Mara came with 500 health regeneration was to actually counteract the stage 4 health regeneration debuff? At its old value the debuff was so insignificant people laughed at it and is how we got the situation where people took the vampire skill line for the mag and stam regen. If you have Unnatural Resistance and just stayed at stage 2 you'd have almost no debuffs save for some flame damage with a really nice passive.
Also while we're on the topic of flame damage why did the devs change it from this:
Stage 1/2/3/4
Flame damage taken +0%/+15%/+20%/+25%
to this?:
Stage 1/2/3/4
Flame Damage Taken: +5%/+8%/+13%/+20%
Why did they make vampires take less flame damage, and then add on a new debuff after taking away the recovery passive? Just taking that passive away was enough to make some people drop vampire entirely, but to double down and make players abilities cost 3/5/8/12% more based on their stage was just cruel.PC NA - Ceyanna Ashton - Breton Vampire MagDK0 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
I still think -50% health regeneration sucks. So from my perspective you're not correcting me. I take your point. But I still don't understand why any build that focused on health regeneration would have wanted to become a stage 4 Vampire under the old system. So I don't understand why that makes such a difference to you, especially considering it's so much easier now for Vampires to simply stay in stage 1 (where there is no health regeneration penalty) and use their skills as much as they want. So if anything - the new Vampire has been a huge buff to Vampire builds that wanted to make use of health regeneration (I know because I play one ^^).
First off you're horribly mistaken. Stage 1 actually has -10% health recovery right now as opposed to the old system that had -0% at stage 1 and 2.
What if I also told you the reason the Disastrously Bloody Mara came with 500 health regeneration was to actually counteract the stage 4 health regeneration debuff? At its old value the debuff was so insignificant people laughed at it and is how we got the situation where people took the vampire skill line for the mag and stam regen. If you have Unnatural Resistance and just stayed at stage 2 you'd have almost no debuffs save for some flame damage with a really nice passive.
Also while we're on the topic of flame damage why did the devs change it from this:
Stage 1/2/3/4
Flame damage taken +0%/+15%/+20%/+25%
to this?:
Stage 1/2/3/4
Flame Damage Taken: +5%/+8%/+13%/+20%
Why did they make vampires take less flame damage, and then add on a new debuff after taking away the recovery passive? Just taking that passive away was enough to make some people drop vampire entirely, but to double down and make players abilities cost 3/5/8/12% more based on their stage was just cruel.
Well 10% then, you're right. Either way it's a lot better than 50%. So my point stands regardless, so I'm not "horribly mistaken" - at least not about the big picture. Which is what counts here.
You can now play as a Vampire and use their skills and have way more health regeneration while you do it then you ever could have had in the old system. In the old system using Vampire Skills rapidly advanced your stage so any build that made regular use of Vampire abilities would end up as a stage 4 Vampire meaning a 50% cut to health regeneration (which is a lot more than 10%).
So again: this new system is just way better for Vampires who want to build for health regeneration. I know this - because I actually play as one of those. There is just no way any Vampire Build who used Vampire Skills and wanted to concentrate on health regeneration would prefer the old system to the new one because you can get way more health regeneration now as a build that uses Vampire Skills than you ever could before.
As to your question: they may have have increased the fire damage at stage 1 from 0 to 5% - but that's still a lot better than 25% - which is the amount of fire damage any build that used Vampire Skills would have been taking in the older system. You could not use Vampire Skills and stay at stage 1 before, because using skills rapidly advanced your stage. Now you can.Edited by Jeremy on July 6, 2020 5:01AM0 -
SlimeBro1✭✭✭✭Fur_like_snow wrote: »When I first tried it last year 2 things seemed really off to me. I needed to feed to become LESS of a vampire and there were only 2 active skills. This overhaul is spot on. I just murdered some chick sweeping a stable bc I was about to drop below stage four, it was super.
I like the new Vampire as well. My main character is a lot more fun and interesting to play as a result of it.
Be prepared for a lot of disagreement though, because a lot of people don't like it for some reason. I'm not sure why, because it was nothing but an improvement over the old Vampire.
Have you not read any of the vampire threads during or after PTS or even the thread you’re replying in? It’s spelled out pretty clearly what the issues are.
I do find it interesting he is claiming to have 'no idea' why people are disagreeing about the vamp rework, in a thread full of people that are explaining their issues with it.
O:
Because nothing in this thread effectively explains why the new Vampire tree isn't better than the old Vampire tree.
Pretty simple.
So I'm not sure what you find so "interesting" about it. Some people are dissatisfied with it and have argued why. But that's a lot different than actually explaining why the new tree is worse off than the old one. And I know why they haven't been able explain it. Because it isn't.
But people have explained why it is worse.
Are we reading the same thread? Have you not seen all of the other threads made about this topic?
They have attempted to explain it. But very little of it has made any sense to me as to why the old Vampire was somehow better than the new one - at least in terms of actual game play - which is what I meant in my post. Perhaps I could have been a little more clear about that in hindsight.
This is fair enough. Old vampire wasn't good either, don't get me wrong. I can agree with you there.
But I feel like most people on this thread and forum believe the new re-vamp isn't good either. So therefore it isn't a straight up improvement for them.
Old vampire was 'fine but needs looked at in a few years' which it was. The skill line was very clearly underdeveloped and had the creativity of a pink dish sponge.
This new skill line, which is probably the vampire's only "revamp" it'll ever get in ESO's existence, is an illusion.
It makes you think "Wow they added so many new abilities and passives!" When in reality, not much has changed. Still only 1 damage dealing ability and the ultimate that is taken most times is the bat-swarm morph, so it's like the old ult never left.
I truly think they kinda messed up with it in the design process. First let's get what people wanted out in the open and clear:
1. It to be a better version of vampire lord from Skyrim/have that level of depth/be similar to werewolf in that regard.
2. Something completely new and fresh to breathe life into a dead skill line (Creatively and thematically dead, that is. As it was only taken for the passivse)
3. It to stay more or less the same.
You can tell they very clearly wanted to include "vampire-lords" but were told 'no' by the lore team (for some reason). So this led them to doing well....a mix of all three but more leaning towards #3
Which is what really messed them up here. If they had gone full-blown into any of these options, the rework would of came out better thematically and people would of loved it. But they failed because they tried to do a bit of all three instead of sticking to 1 core idea.
For #1: Could of been an entire new skill line of skills we've never seen before fitting around the thematic of the vampire lord NPCs we fight a ton of in greymoor. Very fitting and thematic.
For #2: Could of made Lamae's line VERY unique and give us skills we haven't seen before. Could of taken variations of the new vampire skills NPCs get for this. (Bat swarm gap closer, various blood magic stuff, bat magic, etc.) Would of fit in with the chapter since we'd be seeing vampires use similar stuff.
For #3: They could of just made minor edits to the skill line and left it pretty much as is.
Instead what we got was:
A vampire lord form that isn't a vampire lord (but looks exactly like one for some reason) that has the exact old-ult tossed onto a morph and the other is just a debuff-remover that will be back in 20 seconds.
A random melee ability that doesn't make sense logically (Only magic melee ability in the game with no other effects aside from raw dmg when magicka users are mainly ranged.) when the only vamps that use melee attacks are Bloodknights/vamp lords and feral bloodfiends in-game. This ability is also our only main damage dealer (once again stuck with just 1 form of real dmg like the old line)
A self-buff that reduces HP that nobody asked for and has never been a thematic with vampires in Elder Scrolls ever. (also very uncreative, literally is just a stat-drain that gives a bit of flat dmg. That is it.) We are not blood starved bloodfiends, we shouldn't be able to go into a frenzy that harms ourselves.
A drain that is somehow worse than the one from the original skill line. Heals for a bit more, but deals way less damage and doesn't CC and now can be interrupted and put on a CD.
Mesmerize disguises itself as something unique and creative, but that immediately falls flat on its face when you realize they just removed the stun from vamp drain and made it into its own solo-ability that does nothing else. Is the only CC in the entire game that does nothing but CC and no secondary effect.
lastly Mist form is exactly the same except now it's a toggle and poison mist got turned into blood mist that heals for nothing.
If you look closely here, you'll see a vague mash-up of all 3 of the core ideas I previously presented. Vampire lord, an attempt to be unique and "new", and a lot of what we already had.
In fact everything except for Blood Frenzy and the claw attack we pretty much already had in the kit before. They just moved stuff around and presented as "hey look, new things"
I hope this better explains why people take an issue with it. It's because mostly no one in those three core points is happy.
**SIDE NODE: Passives are pretty rad, props to the design of those. All pretty useful and I'm sad that the skill line doesn't share the same amount of usefulness and creativity. Wish vamps got more spell-cost reduction on vamp abilities though if the weaknesses are going to be that strong.3 -
Nova_J✭✭✭✭
I still think -50% health regeneration sucks. So from my perspective you're not correcting me. I take your point. But I still don't understand why any build that focused on health regeneration would have wanted to become a stage 4 Vampire under the old system. So I don't understand why that makes such a difference to you, especially considering it's so much easier now for Vampires to simply stay in stage 1 (where there is no health regeneration penalty) and use their skills as much as they want. So if anything - the new Vampire has been a huge buff to Vampire builds that wanted to make use of health regeneration (I know because I play one ^^).
Why did they make vampires take less flame damage, and then add on a new debuff after taking away the recovery passive? Just taking that passive away was enough to make some people drop vampire entirely, but to double down and make players abilities cost 3/5/8/12% more based on their stage was just cruel.
They added the extra cost to non vamp skills because "it's the price you pay". It's literally there for no other reason than to make you feel like their cursed lol these skills arent strong enough to even warrant a cost increase that high but you know........"it ticks all the boxes of what it means to be a vampire". Lmao even if they removed the cost increase people still wouldn't run more than one of these skills on their bars.Edited by Nova_J on July 6, 2020 4:59AM2 -
Vevvev✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
I still think -50% health regeneration sucks. So from my perspective you're not correcting me. I take your point. But I still don't understand why any build that focused on health regeneration would have wanted to become a stage 4 Vampire under the old system. So I don't understand why that makes such a difference to you, especially considering it's so much easier now for Vampires to simply stay in stage 1 (where there is no health regeneration penalty) and use their skills as much as they want. So if anything - the new Vampire has been a huge buff to Vampire builds that wanted to make use of health regeneration (I know because I play one ^^).
First off you're horribly mistaken. Stage 1 actually has -10% health recovery right now as opposed to the old system that had -0% at stage 1 and 2.
What if I also told you the reason the Disastrously Bloody Mara came with 500 health regeneration was to actually counteract the stage 4 health regeneration debuff? At its old value the debuff was so insignificant people laughed at it and is how we got the situation where people took the vampire skill line for the mag and stam regen. If you have Unnatural Resistance and just stayed at stage 2 you'd have almost no debuffs save for some flame damage with a really nice passive.
Also while we're on the topic of flame damage why did the devs change it from this:
Stage 1/2/3/4
Flame damage taken +0%/+15%/+20%/+25%
to this?:
Stage 1/2/3/4
Flame Damage Taken: +5%/+8%/+13%/+20%
Why did they make vampires take less flame damage, and then add on a new debuff after taking away the recovery passive? Just taking that passive away was enough to make some people drop vampire entirely, but to double down and make players abilities cost 3/5/8/12% more based on their stage was just cruel.
Well 10% then. Either way it's a lot better than 50%. So my point stands regardless so I'm not "horribly mistaken". lol
You can now play as a Vampire and use their skills and have way more health regeneration while you do it then you ever could have had in the old system. In the old system using Vampire Skills rapidly advanced your stage so any build that made regular use of Vampire abilities would end up as a stage 4 Vampire meaning a 50% cut to health regeneration (which is a lot more than 10%).
So again: the new system is way better for Vampires who want to build for health regeneration. And again: I know - because I actually play as one.
And I play as one to at the higher stages, especially in PVP. Sadly you missed the original reason why I had health regeneration as a problem in the first place, and it's convenience. You won't believe how many stage 4 vampires I've healed in towns just standing there injured. My inner healer can't stand it, and when I'm hurt as a vampire and I don't passively heal it makes me shake my head.
Also I'm on the fence about vampire skills progressing your stage. I've experienced all three iterations of how vampires progressed through the stages in ESO, and I honestly preferred the one we had before Greymoor.
The original system, before what we had the patch before Greymoor, had the transition from stage 1 to 2 last 30 minutes, the timer from stage 2 to 3 was an hour, and the timer from stage 3 to 4 was an hour and 30 minutes. All vampire passives were also active at the same time regardless of stage. Meant a stage 1 vampire got dark stalker, undeath, and unnatural regeneration. If that sounds powerful... Well... It was. Vampires were terrifying back in the day but they had to feed regularly to stave off the flame damage. Also using vampire skills did not effect the timers.
The next system solved the issues the original system had and gave players full control over what stage they were in. 6 hour times for each stage and using a vampire ability shaved off 30 minutes. You never spammed these abilities anyway so the system worked fine. Our current system is 'okay' but I honestly feel like they took some player freedoms away. It's not very user friendly to reduce your stage and requires you to drink a bunch of Purifying Bloody Maras. This overrides your current food buff which can be an issue if you're using something that required rare ingredients like Perfect Roe.Edited by Vevvev on July 6, 2020 5:07AMPC NA - Ceyanna Ashton - Breton Vampire MagDK1 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Fur_like_snow wrote: »When I first tried it last year 2 things seemed really off to me. I needed to feed to become LESS of a vampire and there were only 2 active skills. This overhaul is spot on. I just murdered some chick sweeping a stable bc I was about to drop below stage four, it was super.
I like the new Vampire as well. My main character is a lot more fun and interesting to play as a result of it.
Be prepared for a lot of disagreement though, because a lot of people don't like it for some reason. I'm not sure why, because it was nothing but an improvement over the old Vampire.
Have you not read any of the vampire threads during or after PTS or even the thread you’re replying in? It’s spelled out pretty clearly what the issues are.
I do find it interesting he is claiming to have 'no idea' why people are disagreeing about the vamp rework, in a thread full of people that are explaining their issues with it.
O:
Because nothing in this thread effectively explains why the new Vampire tree isn't better than the old Vampire tree.
Pretty simple.
So I'm not sure what you find so "interesting" about it. Some people are dissatisfied with it and have argued why. But that's a lot different than actually explaining why the new tree is worse off than the old one. And I know why they haven't been able explain it. Because it isn't.
But people have explained why it is worse.
Are we reading the same thread? Have you not seen all of the other threads made about this topic?
They have attempted to explain it. But very little of it has made any sense to me as to why the old Vampire was somehow better than the new one - at least in terms of actual game play - which is what I meant in my post. Perhaps I could have been a little more clear about that in hindsight.
This is fair enough. Old vampire wasn't good either, don't get me wrong. I can agree with you there.
But I feel like most people on this thread and forum believe the new re-vamp isn't good either. So therefore it isn't a straight up improvement for them.
Old vampire was 'fine but needs looked at in a few years' which it was. The skill line was very clearly underdeveloped and had the creativity of a pink dish sponge.
This new skill line, which is probably the vampire's only "revamp" it'll ever get in ESO's existence, is an illusion.
It makes you think "Wow they added so many new abilities and passives!" When in reality, not much has changed. Still only 1 damage dealing ability and the ultimate that is taken most times is the bat-swarm morph, so it's like the old ult never left.
I truly think they kinda messed up with it in the design process. First let's get what people wanted out in the open and clear:
1. It to be a better version of vampire lord from Skyrim/have that level of depth/be similar to werewolf in that regard.
2. Something completely new and fresh to breathe life into a dead skill line (Creatively and thematically dead, that is. As it was only taken for the passivse)
3. It to stay more or less the same.
You can tell they very clearly wanted to include "vampire-lords" but were told 'no' by the lore team (for some reason). So this led them to doing well....a mix of all three but more leaning towards #3
Which is what really messed them up here. If they had gone full-blown into any of these options, the rework would of came out better thematically and people would of loved it. But they failed because they tried to do a bit of all three instead of sticking to 1 core idea.
For #1: Could of been an entire new skill line of skills we've never seen before fitting around the thematic of the vampire lord NPCs we fight a ton of in greymoor. Very fitting and thematic.
For #2: Could of made Lamae's line VERY unique and give us skills we haven't seen before. Could of taken variations of the new vampire skills NPCs get for this. (Bat swarm gap closer, various blood magic stuff, bat magic, etc.) Would of fit in with the chapter since we'd be seeing vampires use similar stuff.
For #3: They could of just made minor edits to the skill line and left it pretty much as is.
Instead what we got was:
A vampire lord form that isn't a vampire lord (but looks exactly like one for some reason) that has the exact old-ult tossed onto a morph and the other is just a debuff-remover that will be back in 20 seconds.
A random melee ability that doesn't make sense logically (Only magic melee ability in the game with no other effects aside from raw dmg when magicka users are mainly ranged.) when the only vamps that use melee attacks are Bloodknights/vamp lords and feral bloodfiends in-game. This ability is also our only main damage dealer (once again stuck with just 1 form of real dmg like the old line)
A self-buff that reduces HP that nobody asked for and has never been a thematic with vampires in Elder Scrolls ever. (also very uncreative, literally is just a stat-drain that gives a bit of flat dmg. That is it.) We are not blood starved bloodfiends, we shouldn't be able to go into a frenzy that harms ourselves.
A drain that is somehow worse than the one from the original skill line. Heals for a bit more, but deals way less damage and doesn't CC and now can be interrupted and put on a CD.
Mesmerize disguises itself as something unique and creative, but that immediately falls flat on its face when you realize they just removed the stun from vamp drain and made it into its own solo-ability that does nothing else. Is the only CC in the entire game that does nothing but CC and no secondary effect.
lastly Mist form is exactly the same except now it's a toggle and poison mist got turned into blood mist that heals for nothing.
If you look closely here, you'll see a vague mash-up of all 3 of the core ideas I previously presented. Vampire lord, an attempt to be unique and "new", and a lot of what we already had.
In fact everything except for Blood Frenzy and the claw attack we pretty much already had in the kit before. They just moved stuff around and presented as "hey look, new things"
I hope this better explains why people take an issue with it. It's because mostly no one in those three core points is happy.
**SIDE NODE: Passives are pretty rad, props to the design of those. All pretty useful and I'm sad that the skill line doesn't share the same amount of usefulness and creativity. Wish vamps got more spell-cost reduction on vamp abilities though if the weaknesses are going to be that strong.
We differ in respect to the skill line improvements. So that's likely where our disagreement is and will probably remain.
For example: the Mist Form improvements - which you seemed to dismiss - were significant buffs from my perspective. I love them and would never want to trade them back in for the older versions. I also like the Ultimate - which is what I use now in PvP. Losing the stun on drain did suck. I won't disagree with you there. But it still remains an effective and independent heal. Blood for Blood is suppose to be great for DPS in raids - and the CC seemed to work fine when I tried it out. So it just seems like a solid improvement all around for the skill line. It's certainly way better than what we had before.
I can understand someone wanting further improvements. But I can't understand anyone wanting to go back to the way it was.0 -
SlimeBro1✭✭✭✭Fur_like_snow wrote: »When I first tried it last year 2 things seemed really off to me. I needed to feed to become LESS of a vampire and there were only 2 active skills. This overhaul is spot on. I just murdered some chick sweeping a stable bc I was about to drop below stage four, it was super.
I like the new Vampire as well. My main character is a lot more fun and interesting to play as a result of it.
Be prepared for a lot of disagreement though, because a lot of people don't like it for some reason. I'm not sure why, because it was nothing but an improvement over the old Vampire.
Have you not read any of the vampire threads during or after PTS or even the thread you’re replying in? It’s spelled out pretty clearly what the issues are.
I do find it interesting he is claiming to have 'no idea' why people are disagreeing about the vamp rework, in a thread full of people that are explaining their issues with it.
O:
Because nothing in this thread effectively explains why the new Vampire tree isn't better than the old Vampire tree.
Pretty simple.
So I'm not sure what you find so "interesting" about it. Some people are dissatisfied with it and have argued why. But that's a lot different than actually explaining why the new tree is worse off than the old one. And I know why they haven't been able explain it. Because it isn't.
But people have explained why it is worse.
Are we reading the same thread? Have you not seen all of the other threads made about this topic?
They have attempted to explain it. But very little of it has made any sense to me as to why the old Vampire was somehow better than the new one - at least in terms of actual game play - which is what I meant in my post. Perhaps I could have been a little more clear about that in hindsight.
This is fair enough. Old vampire wasn't good either, don't get me wrong. I can agree with you there.
But I feel like most people on this thread and forum believe the new re-vamp isn't good either. So therefore it isn't a straight up improvement for them.
Old vampire was 'fine but needs looked at in a few years' which it was. The skill line was very clearly underdeveloped and had the creativity of a pink dish sponge.
This new skill line, which is probably the vampire's only "revamp" it'll ever get in ESO's existence, is an illusion.
It makes you think "Wow they added so many new abilities and passives!" When in reality, not much has changed. Still only 1 damage dealing ability and the ultimate that is taken most times is the bat-swarm morph, so it's like the old ult never left.
I truly think they kinda messed up with it in the design process. First let's get what people wanted out in the open and clear:
1. It to be a better version of vampire lord from Skyrim/have that level of depth/be similar to werewolf in that regard.
2. Something completely new and fresh to breathe life into a dead skill line (Creatively and thematically dead, that is. As it was only taken for the passivse)
3. It to stay more or less the same.
You can tell they very clearly wanted to include "vampire-lords" but were told 'no' by the lore team (for some reason). So this led them to doing well....a mix of all three but more leaning towards #3
Which is what really messed them up here. If they had gone full-blown into any of these options, the rework would of came out better thematically and people would of loved it. But they failed because they tried to do a bit of all three instead of sticking to 1 core idea.
For #1: Could of been an entire new skill line of skills we've never seen before fitting around the thematic of the vampire lord NPCs we fight a ton of in greymoor. Very fitting and thematic.
For #2: Could of made Lamae's line VERY unique and give us skills we haven't seen before. Could of taken variations of the new vampire skills NPCs get for this. (Bat swarm gap closer, various blood magic stuff, bat magic, etc.) Would of fit in with the chapter since we'd be seeing vampires use similar stuff.
For #3: They could of just made minor edits to the skill line and left it pretty much as is.
Instead what we got was:
A vampire lord form that isn't a vampire lord (but looks exactly like one for some reason) that has the exact old-ult tossed onto a morph and the other is just a debuff-remover that will be back in 20 seconds.
A random melee ability that doesn't make sense logically (Only magic melee ability in the game with no other effects aside from raw dmg when magicka users are mainly ranged.) when the only vamps that use melee attacks are Bloodknights/vamp lords and feral bloodfiends in-game. This ability is also our only main damage dealer (once again stuck with just 1 form of real dmg like the old line)
A self-buff that reduces HP that nobody asked for and has never been a thematic with vampires in Elder Scrolls ever. (also very uncreative, literally is just a stat-drain that gives a bit of flat dmg. That is it.) We are not blood starved bloodfiends, we shouldn't be able to go into a frenzy that harms ourselves.
A drain that is somehow worse than the one from the original skill line. Heals for a bit more, but deals way less damage and doesn't CC and now can be interrupted and put on a CD.
Mesmerize disguises itself as something unique and creative, but that immediately falls flat on its face when you realize they just removed the stun from vamp drain and made it into its own solo-ability that does nothing else. Is the only CC in the entire game that does nothing but CC and no secondary effect.
lastly Mist form is exactly the same except now it's a toggle and poison mist got turned into blood mist that heals for nothing.
If you look closely here, you'll see a vague mash-up of all 3 of the core ideas I previously presented. Vampire lord, an attempt to be unique and "new", and a lot of what we already had.
In fact everything except for Blood Frenzy and the claw attack we pretty much already had in the kit before. They just moved stuff around and presented as "hey look, new things"
I hope this better explains why people take an issue with it. It's because mostly no one in those three core points is happy.
**SIDE NODE: Passives are pretty rad, props to the design of those. All pretty useful and I'm sad that the skill line doesn't share the same amount of usefulness and creativity. Wish vamps got more spell-cost reduction on vamp abilities though if the weaknesses are going to be that strong.
We differ in respect to the skill line improvements. So that's likely where our disagreement is and will probably remain.
For example: the Mist Form improvements - which you seemed to dismiss - were significant buffs from my perspective. I love them and would never want to trade them back in for the older versions. I also like the Ultimate - which is what I use now in PvP. Losing the stun on drain did suck. I won't disagree with you there. But it still remains an effective and independent heal. Blood for Blood is suppose to be great for DPS in raids - and the CC seemed to work fine when I tried it out. So it just seems like a solid improvement all around for the skill line. It's certainly way better than what we had before.
I can understand someone wanting further improvements. But I can't understand anyone wanting to go back to the way it was.
Answer me this: Why would you use drain over any other heal available? Every other class has a better self-heal and can't be interrupted and isn't a channel.
I can agree mist form changes were good, but that still falls in line with the 'sticking to the old' skill line point I was poking at. Though, personally, I would of liked to see elusive mist form turned back to being a 70% speed buff and the blood-mist should of honestly turned the player into a cloud of bats. Turning into this weird blood cloud that deals damage feels very weird and the sound effects don't match either. I didn't dismiss them being a good change, they just weren't a part of the point I was trying to make, for clarification.
And I don't really see what there is to like about the ultimate, personally. It is a re-skin of the bone goliath ult on my necromancer and it functions basically like the old ult. Without a gap closer, in PvP, it is kind of useless for me as a necromancer. I already have bone goliath and no gapcloser to stay on top of people. They often just run away when I use the ult or kite me because my main damage isn't ranged. (Evisercate)
For the record, I don't want to go back to the old skill line. But I do think this one can be improved.
I think we can both find common ground with this: Why not replace Blood Frenzy with a gap closer (similar to the bat one NPC vamps have) and remove the magicka morph of eviscerate in favor of a range option? It'd leave what you think are improvements to the skill line whilst also improving what we already have. It'd add in more options for different play styles with vamp too, which would be neat.Edited by SlimeBro1 on July 6, 2020 5:26AM0 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
I still think -50% health regeneration sucks. So from my perspective you're not correcting me. I take your point. But I still don't understand why any build that focused on health regeneration would have wanted to become a stage 4 Vampire under the old system. So I don't understand why that makes such a difference to you, especially considering it's so much easier now for Vampires to simply stay in stage 1 (where there is no health regeneration penalty) and use their skills as much as they want. So if anything - the new Vampire has been a huge buff to Vampire builds that wanted to make use of health regeneration (I know because I play one ^^).
First off you're horribly mistaken. Stage 1 actually has -10% health recovery right now as opposed to the old system that had -0% at stage 1 and 2.
What if I also told you the reason the Disastrously Bloody Mara came with 500 health regeneration was to actually counteract the stage 4 health regeneration debuff? At its old value the debuff was so insignificant people laughed at it and is how we got the situation where people took the vampire skill line for the mag and stam regen. If you have Unnatural Resistance and just stayed at stage 2 you'd have almost no debuffs save for some flame damage with a really nice passive.
Also while we're on the topic of flame damage why did the devs change it from this:
Stage 1/2/3/4
Flame damage taken +0%/+15%/+20%/+25%
to this?:
Stage 1/2/3/4
Flame Damage Taken: +5%/+8%/+13%/+20%
Why did they make vampires take less flame damage, and then add on a new debuff after taking away the recovery passive? Just taking that passive away was enough to make some people drop vampire entirely, but to double down and make players abilities cost 3/5/8/12% more based on their stage was just cruel.
Well 10% then. Either way it's a lot better than 50%. So my point stands regardless so I'm not "horribly mistaken". lol
You can now play as a Vampire and use their skills and have way more health regeneration while you do it then you ever could have had in the old system. In the old system using Vampire Skills rapidly advanced your stage so any build that made regular use of Vampire abilities would end up as a stage 4 Vampire meaning a 50% cut to health regeneration (which is a lot more than 10%).
So again: the new system is way better for Vampires who want to build for health regeneration. And again: I know - because I actually play as one.
And I play as one to at the higher stages, especially in PVP. Sadly you missed the original reason why I had health regeneration as a problem in the first place, and it's convenience. You won't believe how many stage 4 vampires I've healed in towns just standing there injured. My inner healer can't stand it, and when I'm hurt as a vampire and I don't passively heal it makes me shake my head.
Also I'm on the fence about vampire skills progressing your stage. I've experienced all three iterations of how vampires progressed through the stages in ESO, and I honestly preferred the one we had before Greymoor.
The original system, before what we had the patch before Greymoor, had the transition from stage 1 to 2 last 30 minutes, the timer from stage 2 to 3 was an hour, and the timer from stage 3 to 4 was an hour and 30 minutes. All vampire passives were also active at the same time regardless of stage. Meant a stage 1 vampire got dark stalker, undeath, and unnatural regeneration. If that sounds powerful... Well... It was. Vampires were terrifying back in the day but they had to feed regularly to stave off the flame damage. Also using vampire skills did not effect the timers.
The next system solved the issues the original system had and gave players full control over what stage they were in. 6 hour times for each stage and using a vampire ability shaved off 30 minutes. You never spammed these abilities anyway so the system worked fine. Our current system is 'okay' but I honestly feel like they took some player freedoms away. It's not very user friendly to reduce your stage and requires you to drink a bunch of Purifying Bloody Maras. This overrides your current food buff which can be an issue if you're using something that required rare ingredients like Perfect Roe.
So you think the new system is inferior to the old one because you see stage 4 Vampires dying in town now because they have no passive recovery? I seriously doubt Stage 4 Vampires who depended on a health recovery stat cut in half by 50% to get their health back had it much better in the older system because that sounds like a very terrible way to get your health back and not "convenient" at all. So I don't see that as a significant consideration.
Now I do agree with it's a little user unfriendly to have to drink Blood Mara to reduce you stage. But considering the greater flexibility it gives you to control what stage you play at I'll happily take it over the old system, which pretty much forced any build that regularly used Vampire Abilities to play at stage 4.
It's late, I got to get off here.Edited by Jeremy on July 6, 2020 5:24AM0 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Fur_like_snow wrote: »When I first tried it last year 2 things seemed really off to me. I needed to feed to become LESS of a vampire and there were only 2 active skills. This overhaul is spot on. I just murdered some chick sweeping a stable bc I was about to drop below stage four, it was super.
I like the new Vampire as well. My main character is a lot more fun and interesting to play as a result of it.
Be prepared for a lot of disagreement though, because a lot of people don't like it for some reason. I'm not sure why, because it was nothing but an improvement over the old Vampire.
Have you not read any of the vampire threads during or after PTS or even the thread you’re replying in? It’s spelled out pretty clearly what the issues are.
I do find it interesting he is claiming to have 'no idea' why people are disagreeing about the vamp rework, in a thread full of people that are explaining their issues with it.
O:
Because nothing in this thread effectively explains why the new Vampire tree isn't better than the old Vampire tree.
Pretty simple.
So I'm not sure what you find so "interesting" about it. Some people are dissatisfied with it and have argued why. But that's a lot different than actually explaining why the new tree is worse off than the old one. And I know why they haven't been able explain it. Because it isn't.
But people have explained why it is worse.
Are we reading the same thread? Have you not seen all of the other threads made about this topic?
They have attempted to explain it. But very little of it has made any sense to me as to why the old Vampire was somehow better than the new one - at least in terms of actual game play - which is what I meant in my post. Perhaps I could have been a little more clear about that in hindsight.
This is fair enough. Old vampire wasn't good either, don't get me wrong. I can agree with you there.
But I feel like most people on this thread and forum believe the new re-vamp isn't good either. So therefore it isn't a straight up improvement for them.
Old vampire was 'fine but needs looked at in a few years' which it was. The skill line was very clearly underdeveloped and had the creativity of a pink dish sponge.
This new skill line, which is probably the vampire's only "revamp" it'll ever get in ESO's existence, is an illusion.
It makes you think "Wow they added so many new abilities and passives!" When in reality, not much has changed. Still only 1 damage dealing ability and the ultimate that is taken most times is the bat-swarm morph, so it's like the old ult never left.
I truly think they kinda messed up with it in the design process. First let's get what people wanted out in the open and clear:
1. It to be a better version of vampire lord from Skyrim/have that level of depth/be similar to werewolf in that regard.
2. Something completely new and fresh to breathe life into a dead skill line (Creatively and thematically dead, that is. As it was only taken for the passivse)
3. It to stay more or less the same.
You can tell they very clearly wanted to include "vampire-lords" but were told 'no' by the lore team (for some reason). So this led them to doing well....a mix of all three but more leaning towards #3
Which is what really messed them up here. If they had gone full-blown into any of these options, the rework would of came out better thematically and people would of loved it. But they failed because they tried to do a bit of all three instead of sticking to 1 core idea.
For #1: Could of been an entire new skill line of skills we've never seen before fitting around the thematic of the vampire lord NPCs we fight a ton of in greymoor. Very fitting and thematic.
For #2: Could of made Lamae's line VERY unique and give us skills we haven't seen before. Could of taken variations of the new vampire skills NPCs get for this. (Bat swarm gap closer, various blood magic stuff, bat magic, etc.) Would of fit in with the chapter since we'd be seeing vampires use similar stuff.
For #3: They could of just made minor edits to the skill line and left it pretty much as is.
Instead what we got was:
A vampire lord form that isn't a vampire lord (but looks exactly like one for some reason) that has the exact old-ult tossed onto a morph and the other is just a debuff-remover that will be back in 20 seconds.
A random melee ability that doesn't make sense logically (Only magic melee ability in the game with no other effects aside from raw dmg when magicka users are mainly ranged.) when the only vamps that use melee attacks are Bloodknights/vamp lords and feral bloodfiends in-game. This ability is also our only main damage dealer (once again stuck with just 1 form of real dmg like the old line)
A self-buff that reduces HP that nobody asked for and has never been a thematic with vampires in Elder Scrolls ever. (also very uncreative, literally is just a stat-drain that gives a bit of flat dmg. That is it.) We are not blood starved bloodfiends, we shouldn't be able to go into a frenzy that harms ourselves.
A drain that is somehow worse than the one from the original skill line. Heals for a bit more, but deals way less damage and doesn't CC and now can be interrupted and put on a CD.
Mesmerize disguises itself as something unique and creative, but that immediately falls flat on its face when you realize they just removed the stun from vamp drain and made it into its own solo-ability that does nothing else. Is the only CC in the entire game that does nothing but CC and no secondary effect.
lastly Mist form is exactly the same except now it's a toggle and poison mist got turned into blood mist that heals for nothing.
If you look closely here, you'll see a vague mash-up of all 3 of the core ideas I previously presented. Vampire lord, an attempt to be unique and "new", and a lot of what we already had.
In fact everything except for Blood Frenzy and the claw attack we pretty much already had in the kit before. They just moved stuff around and presented as "hey look, new things"
I hope this better explains why people take an issue with it. It's because mostly no one in those three core points is happy.
**SIDE NODE: Passives are pretty rad, props to the design of those. All pretty useful and I'm sad that the skill line doesn't share the same amount of usefulness and creativity. Wish vamps got more spell-cost reduction on vamp abilities though if the weaknesses are going to be that strong.
We differ in respect to the skill line improvements. So that's likely where our disagreement is and will probably remain.
For example: the Mist Form improvements - which you seemed to dismiss - were significant buffs from my perspective. I love them and would never want to trade them back in for the older versions. I also like the Ultimate - which is what I use now in PvP. Losing the stun on drain did suck. I won't disagree with you there. But it still remains an effective and independent heal. Blood for Blood is suppose to be great for DPS in raids - and the CC seemed to work fine when I tried it out. So it just seems like a solid improvement all around for the skill line. It's certainly way better than what we had before.
I can understand someone wanting further improvements. But I can't understand anyone wanting to go back to the way it was.
Answer me this: Why would you use drain over any other heal available? .
I'll answer this quickly before I go:
Because the drain is independent of stamina and magicka. It's good for health builds as an example.Edited by Jeremy on July 6, 2020 5:30AM0 -
SlimeBro1✭✭✭✭Fur_like_snow wrote: »When I first tried it last year 2 things seemed really off to me. I needed to feed to become LESS of a vampire and there were only 2 active skills. This overhaul is spot on. I just murdered some chick sweeping a stable bc I was about to drop below stage four, it was super.
I like the new Vampire as well. My main character is a lot more fun and interesting to play as a result of it.
Be prepared for a lot of disagreement though, because a lot of people don't like it for some reason. I'm not sure why, because it was nothing but an improvement over the old Vampire.
Have you not read any of the vampire threads during or after PTS or even the thread you’re replying in? It’s spelled out pretty clearly what the issues are.
I do find it interesting he is claiming to have 'no idea' why people are disagreeing about the vamp rework, in a thread full of people that are explaining their issues with it.
O:
Because nothing in this thread effectively explains why the new Vampire tree isn't better than the old Vampire tree.
Pretty simple.
So I'm not sure what you find so "interesting" about it. Some people are dissatisfied with it and have argued why. But that's a lot different than actually explaining why the new tree is worse off than the old one. And I know why they haven't been able explain it. Because it isn't.
But people have explained why it is worse.
Are we reading the same thread? Have you not seen all of the other threads made about this topic?
They have attempted to explain it. But very little of it has made any sense to me as to why the old Vampire was somehow better than the new one - at least in terms of actual game play - which is what I meant in my post. Perhaps I could have been a little more clear about that in hindsight.
This is fair enough. Old vampire wasn't good either, don't get me wrong. I can agree with you there.
But I feel like most people on this thread and forum believe the new re-vamp isn't good either. So therefore it isn't a straight up improvement for them.
Old vampire was 'fine but needs looked at in a few years' which it was. The skill line was very clearly underdeveloped and had the creativity of a pink dish sponge.
This new skill line, which is probably the vampire's only "revamp" it'll ever get in ESO's existence, is an illusion.
It makes you think "Wow they added so many new abilities and passives!" When in reality, not much has changed. Still only 1 damage dealing ability and the ultimate that is taken most times is the bat-swarm morph, so it's like the old ult never left.
I truly think they kinda messed up with it in the design process. First let's get what people wanted out in the open and clear:
1. It to be a better version of vampire lord from Skyrim/have that level of depth/be similar to werewolf in that regard.
2. Something completely new and fresh to breathe life into a dead skill line (Creatively and thematically dead, that is. As it was only taken for the passivse)
3. It to stay more or less the same.
You can tell they very clearly wanted to include "vampire-lords" but were told 'no' by the lore team (for some reason). So this led them to doing well....a mix of all three but more leaning towards #3
Which is what really messed them up here. If they had gone full-blown into any of these options, the rework would of came out better thematically and people would of loved it. But they failed because they tried to do a bit of all three instead of sticking to 1 core idea.
For #1: Could of been an entire new skill line of skills we've never seen before fitting around the thematic of the vampire lord NPCs we fight a ton of in greymoor. Very fitting and thematic.
For #2: Could of made Lamae's line VERY unique and give us skills we haven't seen before. Could of taken variations of the new vampire skills NPCs get for this. (Bat swarm gap closer, various blood magic stuff, bat magic, etc.) Would of fit in with the chapter since we'd be seeing vampires use similar stuff.
For #3: They could of just made minor edits to the skill line and left it pretty much as is.
Instead what we got was:
A vampire lord form that isn't a vampire lord (but looks exactly like one for some reason) that has the exact old-ult tossed onto a morph and the other is just a debuff-remover that will be back in 20 seconds.
A random melee ability that doesn't make sense logically (Only magic melee ability in the game with no other effects aside from raw dmg when magicka users are mainly ranged.) when the only vamps that use melee attacks are Bloodknights/vamp lords and feral bloodfiends in-game. This ability is also our only main damage dealer (once again stuck with just 1 form of real dmg like the old line)
A self-buff that reduces HP that nobody asked for and has never been a thematic with vampires in Elder Scrolls ever. (also very uncreative, literally is just a stat-drain that gives a bit of flat dmg. That is it.) We are not blood starved bloodfiends, we shouldn't be able to go into a frenzy that harms ourselves.
A drain that is somehow worse than the one from the original skill line. Heals for a bit more, but deals way less damage and doesn't CC and now can be interrupted and put on a CD.
Mesmerize disguises itself as something unique and creative, but that immediately falls flat on its face when you realize they just removed the stun from vamp drain and made it into its own solo-ability that does nothing else. Is the only CC in the entire game that does nothing but CC and no secondary effect.
lastly Mist form is exactly the same except now it's a toggle and poison mist got turned into blood mist that heals for nothing.
If you look closely here, you'll see a vague mash-up of all 3 of the core ideas I previously presented. Vampire lord, an attempt to be unique and "new", and a lot of what we already had.
In fact everything except for Blood Frenzy and the claw attack we pretty much already had in the kit before. They just moved stuff around and presented as "hey look, new things"
I hope this better explains why people take an issue with it. It's because mostly no one in those three core points is happy.
**SIDE NODE: Passives are pretty rad, props to the design of those. All pretty useful and I'm sad that the skill line doesn't share the same amount of usefulness and creativity. Wish vamps got more spell-cost reduction on vamp abilities though if the weaknesses are going to be that strong.
We differ in respect to the skill line improvements. So that's likely where our disagreement is and will probably remain.
For example: the Mist Form improvements - which you seemed to dismiss - were significant buffs from my perspective. I love them and would never want to trade them back in for the older versions. I also like the Ultimate - which is what I use now in PvP. Losing the stun on drain did suck. I won't disagree with you there. But it still remains an effective and independent heal. Blood for Blood is suppose to be great for DPS in raids - and the CC seemed to work fine when I tried it out. So it just seems like a solid improvement all around for the skill line. It's certainly way better than what we had before.
I can understand someone wanting further improvements. But I can't understand anyone wanting to go back to the way it was.
Answer me this: Why would you use drain over any other heal available? .
I'll answer this quickly before I go:
Because the drain is independent of stamina and magicka. It's good for health builds.
Fair enough. But what if the ability worked like a tether instead? That latched onto a target and could be broken via distance? If we're going all in on making this a life-draining spell, a tether that would allow you to cast other things while it is going off would be pretty cool?
Also I am curious to hear your thoughts on my other statements in that response, but I understand it is probably pretty late. So respond when you can!Edited by SlimeBro1 on July 6, 2020 5:31AM0
