Is Zenimax getting desperate? (Just venting)

Davor · June 2020

Usually I don't say this, but after having the huge, bug on Xbox where we can't sell our goods to the Fences and then encountering this, just made me want to vent.

I haven't bought Greymoor, so when I encountered a page about scrying (or what ever it is called) I look into the details in how to do it, and Zenimax basically says you need to buy Greymoor to do it. Like WTF? I don't recall ever having to buy a "story" to be able to do something that gives you in game to do. At least Summerset never did it. I know when I didn't buy Summerset right away on Xbox (did on PC) I never got something on Xbox to say "here you go, do this but need to buy Summerset to do.

So is Zenimax getting desperate now, by giving something, a simple where to scrye without buying Greymoor, so people would buy it now? I am not looking forward to finding all these scrying pages if I can't do them.

Maybe this is a free feature in the base game now and I just don't know about it, [snip] (Yes I know the actual workers, the coders, the programmers are doing an awesome job, [snip]

Just venting since we can't sell our stolen items to Fences, something we paid for and should be able to do. This just shows how Zenimax doesn't even do any quality checks on the consoles and do just straight ports from PC. This should have been found within 5 minutes of playing. Maybe Zenimax does do quality checks [snip]

[snip]

[Edited to remove Bashing]

daemonios · June 2020

You couldn't research jewellery crafting, deconstruct pieces of jewelry, or obtain the psijic skill line without buying Summerset iirc. Same with Morrowind and warden class, Elsweyr and necromancers, or clockwork city (maybe Morrowind?) and transmutation. Also, since dungeon dropped gear can only be traded within the group, you're locked out of dungeon and monster sets for which you don't own the DLC (unless you have ESO+).

EDIT: For what it's worth, I'm not saying the current system is good. On the contrary, I'm a strong supporter of mandatory subscriptions with no other paywalls, as opposed to piecemeal sale and shady in-game store monetisation, which is what we're getting. I do agree partly with what OP seems to be getting at, which is that this model makes the game look like an ugly quilt of vaguely related content.

Chilly-McFreeze · June 2020

A company wants you to buy their product to use their product? What a shame.

ValueDrift · June 2020

daemonios wrote: »

You couldn't research jewellery crafting, deconstruct pieces of jewelry, or obtain the psijic skill line without buying Summerset iirc. Same with Morrowind and warden class, Elsweyr and necromancers, or clockwork city (maybe Morrowind?) and transmutation. Also, since dungeon dropped gear can only be traded within the group, you're locked out of dungeon and monster sets for which you don't own the DLC (unless you have ESO+).

The content you listed isn't constantly shoved in the face of people who don't have access to it, the same way leads are. It is a matter of opinion if this advertising strategy is nice or not, but it is an advertising strategy.

tsaescishoeshiner · June 2020

ValueDrift wrote: »

daemonios wrote: »

You couldn't research jewellery crafting, deconstruct pieces of jewelry, or obtain the psijic skill line without buying Summerset iirc. Same with Morrowind and warden class, Elsweyr and necromancers, or clockwork city (maybe Morrowind?) and transmutation. Also, since dungeon dropped gear can only be traded within the group, you're locked out of dungeon and monster sets for which you don't own the DLC (unless you have ESO+).

The content you listed isn't constantly shoved in the face of people who don't have access to it, the same way leads are. It is a matter of opinion if this advertising strategy is nice or not, but it is an advertising strategy.

Pros: If the player buys Greymoor, they have a bunch of leads waiting for them (that might expire before they level Scrying, but still)

Cons: It's a constant, repetitive reminder that you don't own certain content, and that you're missing out

I don't have a big problem with locking Antiquities behind Greymoor, but receiving leads without it must be pretty annoying

daemonios · June 2020

ValueDrift wrote: »

daemonios wrote: »

You couldn't research jewellery crafting, deconstruct pieces of jewelry, or obtain the psijic skill line without buying Summerset iirc. Same with Morrowind and warden class, Elsweyr and necromancers, or clockwork city (maybe Morrowind?) and transmutation. Also, since dungeon dropped gear can only be traded within the group, you're locked out of dungeon and monster sets for which you don't own the DLC (unless you have ESO+).

The content you listed isn't constantly shoved in the face of people who don't have access to it, the same way leads are. It is a matter of opinion if this advertising strategy is nice or not, but it is an advertising strategy.

I may very well be wrong because I own the content, but:

- Do you not get transmutation stones/geodes regardless of whether you own clockwork city? In fact, I think you can even transmute without the DLC if you or someone who gives you access to their home have a transmutation station there. But if you don't, transmutation stones would be "constantly shoved in the face of people who don't have access to" transmutation.

- Can you not get exemplary jewellery pieces, besides the ones that drop from psijic portals, if you don't own Summerset? Since their sole purpose is research, they would also be a reminder of content you don't own.

- Other players running around with bears or ghosts on tow, or spamming other locked class abilities, are also a constant advertisement of said classes.

Elsonso · June 2020

Bugs happen, and Update 26 is buggier than anything that has come out of ZOS in a while.

I think that, much of the time, stuff like this is caught by QA. Not everything, obviously, but my expectation is that people would be amazed at what they do catch. Of course, even if QA catches a bug, someone (Producer?) has to decide whether that is going to get fixed Soon™ or not. It is not guaranteed.

If anything in the studio operations is negatively impacted by working from home, I have to think that QA is near the top of the list. They have to install ESO and test it every day, and that is just going to take longer from home with a residential internet connection. I absolutely cannot imagine that QA is functioning optimally right now.

Regarding leads given to people who have not purchased Greymoor, yes, I am certain that is intentional. This is going to come with a big splash, as the people who do have Greymoor need to know this has happened. Since there is a dual purpose, informational and marketing, I would not expect them to have a display for Greymoor customers and nothing for those who have not purchased Greymoor.

I know people quibble over "buy to play" but this game is free to play in significant ways, and ZOS needs players to voluntarily give them money on a regular basis. They have to market the game from within the game, launcher, login screen, and even character select, since that is where players likely to spend money will see them.

I get where you are coming from, though. I find their in-game advertising incredibly annoying. If it were not for add-ons like "Hide Login Announcement", I would have been gone a long time ago.

heaven13 · June 2020

daemonios wrote: »

ValueDrift wrote: »

daemonios wrote: »

You couldn't research jewellery crafting, deconstruct pieces of jewelry, or obtain the psijic skill line without buying Summerset iirc. Same with Morrowind and warden class, Elsweyr and necromancers, or clockwork city (maybe Morrowind?) and transmutation. Also, since dungeon dropped gear can only be traded within the group, you're locked out of dungeon and monster sets for which you don't own the DLC (unless you have ESO+).

The content you listed isn't constantly shoved in the face of people who don't have access to it, the same way leads are. It is a matter of opinion if this advertising strategy is nice or not, but it is an advertising strategy.

I may very well be wrong because I own the content, but:

- Do you not get transmutation stones/geodes regardless of whether you own clockwork city? In fact, I think you can even transmute without the DLC if you or someone who gives you access to their home have a transmutation station there. But if you don't, transmutation stones would be "constantly shoved in the face of people who don't have access to" transmutation.

- Can you not get exemplary jewellery pieces, besides the ones that drop from psijic portals, if you don't own Summerset? Since their sole purpose is research, they would also be a reminder of content you don't own.

- Other players running around with bears or ghosts on tow, or spamming other locked class abilities, are also a constant advertisement of said classes.

Transmutation is doable without CWC so long as you have access to a guild house with one. I doubt there are many these days that don't have access in some form.
Jewelry dust/exemplary pieces can be sold if you don't have the content so you can benefit from it in some way. And it the terms of dust, you have the option to farm the nodes or not. (Same with Thieves Troves - can see them but otherwise just ignore them)
Seeing other players with warden bears or necro pets is, to me, like seeing someone with crown store cosmetics. If I want it, I can get it but otherwise that's just something in the world around me. Leads is more like you get a mount put in your collections that sits there but every time you try to use it you get told you need to pay 3500 crowns.

Receiving leads without owning the chapter is a step more aggressive since whether you get them or not is completely RNG so you have no control over receiving leads and absolutely no way to do anything with them. Leads also have an expiration date to serve as a not-so-subtle reminder (particularly once the timer shows up) that YOU MUST BUY OR YOU LOSE OUT. Transmute crystals don't expire. You can hold the geodes until your inventory is bursting (and again, can use a station outside of CWC). Thieves troves and jewelry stuff is always around, the chapter classes are always available, etc. But the expiration date serves to add pressure to give in and buy so you don't lose leads that might be gold or mythic that you got based on the game's sometimes very unforgiving RNG.

Jacozilla · June 2020

daemonios wrote: »

ValueDrift wrote: »

daemonios wrote: »

You couldn't research jewellery crafting, deconstruct pieces of jewelry, or obtain the psijic skill line without buying Summerset iirc. Same with Morrowind and warden class, Elsweyr and necromancers, or clockwork city (maybe Morrowind?) and transmutation. Also, since dungeon dropped gear can only be traded within the group, you're locked out of dungeon and monster sets for which you don't own the DLC (unless you have ESO+).

The content you listed isn't constantly shoved in the face of people who don't have access to it, the same way leads are. It is a matter of opinion if this advertising strategy is nice or not, but it is an advertising strategy.

I may very well be wrong because I own the content, but:

- Do you not get transmutation stones/geodes regardless of whether you own clockwork city? In fact, I think you can even transmute without the DLC if you or someone who gives you access to their home have a transmutation station there. But if you don't, transmutation stones would be "constantly shoved in the face of people who don't have access to" transmutation.

- Can you not get exemplary jewellery pieces, besides the ones that drop from psijic portals, if you don't own Summerset? Since their sole purpose is research, they would also be a reminder of content you don't own.

- Other players running around with bears or ghosts on tow, or spamming other locked class abilities, are also a constant advertisement of said classes.

Re your 1st - as you said yourself, xmute stations are available regardless Clockwork DLC owned or not. Every guild of decent size has one plus many personal homes. From day1, anyone could xmute long as they had crystals which drop in base game. You're using a hypothetical that doesn't exist - xmute stones arent shoved in ppl's faces precisely because of how universal the access to xmute stations are.

Re your 2nd - fair point re: jewelry drops the person wouldn't be able to use if JC research not unlocked but again this example proves exactly opposite because the person CAN use these jewelry for profit. Unlike Greymoor leads the OP would have zero use nor profit from if does not own Gremoor, he'd be able to sell for significant profit most these JC drops and even the low priced ones aren't useless, still a net profit.

Re your 3rd - I agree other ppl playing their locked classes is a form of advertisement of those classes, and I'm quite sure at least some ppl must buy the classes/chapter bc of seeing some person they know perform well on that class. But that said, there is a distinct difference of an advertisement put in front of you directly (Greymoor lead spam with leads page with an upgrade now button next to every single lead, with upgrade to Greymoor on main char page every single login, etc) vs indirectly in the sense of someone else showing they own that content.

If I click a video and it shows me an ad I must watch before I engage with that content, then that is direct advertising. If I watch a video with no ad but some guy next to me is watching/display the ad on his screen, his brand T-shirt, whatever, that is indirect advertising. I can't deny it is some form of ad, but there's imo a pretty big difference from ESO shoving Greymoor in your face vs. seeing a warden in your random daily. I own all content inc Greymoor on main account but choose not to buy on 2nd account. I don't agree with way OP worded it or all his opinions on it, but I do find the Greymoor spam bit much on 2nd acct - which I still pay ESO+ for, and hence in my view is not free to play penalty. I am a paying sub being spammed for content I choose not to buy.

Elsonso · June 2020

heaven13 wrote: »

Receiving leads without owning the chapter is a step more aggressive since whether you get them or not is completely RNG so you have no control over receiving leads and absolutely no way to do anything with them. Leads also have an expiration date to serve as a not-so-subtle reminder (particularly once the timer shows up) that YOU MUST BUY OR YOU LOSE OUT. Transmute crystals don't expire. You can hold the geodes until your inventory is bursting (and again, can use a station outside of CWC). Thieves troves and jewelry stuff is always around, the chapter classes are always available, etc. But the expiration date serves to add pressure to give in and buy so you don't lose leads that might be gold or mythic that you got based on the game's sometimes very unforgiving RNG.

FOMO only applies if you let it. Yes, if you buy Greymoor at some date in the future, you may have to re-farm leads that you previously allowed to expire. All the pre-order people started with no leads and had to farm them. If you happen to have any remaining leads, then you can try to take advantage of the short cut by leveling up before they expire.

If you can't set aside the FOMO, and still want to play ESO, then you should buy Greymoor.

daemonios · June 2020

I see the point raised by several people about the more aggressive nature of leads with a use-by date.

That said, I've become more or less immune to these shady practices. If anything, they make me more disillusioned about the game.

I've never bought a crown, let alone crown gem items. I've dropped my sub due to lack of results addressing PC-EU issues. I haven't bought Greymoor, although I'd like to check out antiquities, because I don't want to be another number on a list that can be interpreted as meaning the game is doing fine when I don't think it is. I simply ignore leads with an expiry date just as I ignore time-limited store items.

heaven13 · June 2020

Elsonso wrote: »

heaven13 wrote: »

Receiving leads without owning the chapter is a step more aggressive since whether you get them or not is completely RNG so you have no control over receiving leads and absolutely no way to do anything with them. Leads also have an expiration date to serve as a not-so-subtle reminder (particularly once the timer shows up) that YOU MUST BUY OR YOU LOSE OUT. Transmute crystals don't expire. You can hold the geodes until your inventory is bursting (and again, can use a station outside of CWC). Thieves troves and jewelry stuff is always around, the chapter classes are always available, etc. But the expiration date serves to add pressure to give in and buy so you don't lose leads that might be gold or mythic that you got based on the game's sometimes very unforgiving RNG.

FOMO only applies if you let it. Yes, if you buy Greymoor at some date in the future, you may have to re-farm leads that you previously allowed to expire. All the pre-order people started with no leads and had to farm them. If you happen to have any remaining leads, then you can try to take advantage of the short cut by leveling up before they expire.

If you can't set aside the FOMO, and still want to play ESO, then you should buy Greymoor.

Doesn't change the fact that FOMO is a new tactic used for selling chapters. The tactic itself is heavily researched and utilized throughout the gaming industry. This game already relies very heavily on FOMO with limited crown cosmetics, events, houses that cost over $100, daily rewards, etc. To use FOMO as a tactic for marketing a chapter goes a bit too far, in my opinion.

Perhaps preorders/sales were lower than expected, particularly given the OOOH SKYRIM NOSTALGIA they were undoubtedly banking on so they needed to add additional incentives for the people holding out. It's slimy.

Sylvermynx · June 2020

I'm not buying Greymoor. I have a few leads, which is fine since they don't take up inventory space (and if they did, I'd just destroy them). I don't care, and I'm not subject to the whole FOMO stupidity.

Starlock · June 2020

Elsonso wrote: »

heaven13 wrote: »

Receiving leads without owning the chapter is a step more aggressive since whether you get them or not is completely RNG so you have no control over receiving leads and absolutely no way to do anything with them. Leads also have an expiration date to serve as a not-so-subtle reminder (particularly once the timer shows up) that YOU MUST BUY OR YOU LOSE OUT. Transmute crystals don't expire. You can hold the geodes until your inventory is bursting (and again, can use a station outside of CWC). Thieves troves and jewelry stuff is always around, the chapter classes are always available, etc. But the expiration date serves to add pressure to give in and buy so you don't lose leads that might be gold or mythic that you got based on the game's sometimes very unforgiving RNG.

FOMO only applies if you let it. .

That... is not how it works. These things operate at a psychological level that go well deeper than “letting” it happen to us. That’s not to say people can’t exercise restraint, but these feelings are wired to come to us and that isn’t something a person can just turn off. The fact that we can’t just turn off these sorts of responses (aka, they are reflexive and automatic) is why they are desirable targets for exploitation in marketing.

Elsonso · June 2020

heaven13 wrote: »

Perhaps preorders/sales were lower than expected, particularly given the OOOH SKYRIM NOSTALGIA they were undoubtedly banking on so they needed to add additional incentives for the people holding out. It's slimy.

OOh! Conspiracy theory.

Chances are that this was in the game like this long before we could pre-order.

Starlock wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

FOMO only applies if you let it. .

That... is not how it works. These things operate at a psychological level that go well deeper than “letting” it happen to us. That’s not to say people can’t exercise restraint, but these feelings are wired to come to us and that isn’t something a person can just turn off. The fact that we can’t just turn off these sorts of responses (aka, they are reflexive and automatic) is why they are desirable targets for exploitation in marketing.

I know how FOMO works. For most people, it only applies if you let it. It is very common for people to simply ignore it.

Destai · June 2020

Davor wrote: »

Usually I don't say this, but after having the huge, bug on Xbox where we can't sell our goods to the Fences and then encountering this, just made me want to vent.

I haven't bought Greymoor, so when I encountered a page about scrying (or what ever it is called) I look into the details in how to do it, and Zenimax basically says you need to buy Greymoor to do it. Like WTF? I don't recall ever having to buy a "story" to be able to do something that gives you in game to do. At least Summerset never did it. I know when I didn't buy Summerset right away on Xbox (did on PC) I never got something on Xbox to say "here you go, do this but need to buy Summerset to do.

So is Zenimax getting desperate now, by giving something, a simple where to scrye without buying Greymoor, so people would buy it now? I am not looking forward to finding all these scrying pages if I can't do them.

Maybe this is a free feature in the base game now and I just don't know about it, [snip] (Yes I know the actual workers, the coders, the programmers are doing an awesome job, [snip]

Just venting since we can't sell our stolen items to Fences, something we paid for and should be able to do. This just shows how Zenimax doesn't even do any quality checks on the consoles and do just straight ports from PC. This should have been found within 5 minutes of playing. Maybe Zenimax does do quality checks [snip]

[snip]

[Edited to remove Bashing]

God it'd be GREAT if I actually knew what you originally said. I guess seeing that [snip] makes me think higher of ZOS. /s

They're relying increasingly on aggressive marketing tactics, which I'd interpret as a sign of desperation. It's always been there, but it's sucking the enjoyment out of the game for a lot of folks. This game goes F2P, I'm out.

TheValkyn · June 2020

Destai wrote: »

Davor wrote: »

Usually I don't say this, but after having the huge, bug on Xbox where we can't sell our goods to the Fences and then encountering this, just made me want to vent.

I haven't bought Greymoor, so when I encountered a page about scrying (or what ever it is called) I look into the details in how to do it, and Zenimax basically says you need to buy Greymoor to do it. Like WTF? I don't recall ever having to buy a "story" to be able to do something that gives you in game to do. At least Summerset never did it. I know when I didn't buy Summerset right away on Xbox (did on PC) I never got something on Xbox to say "here you go, do this but need to buy Summerset to do.

So is Zenimax getting desperate now, by giving something, a simple where to scrye without buying Greymoor, so people would buy it now? I am not looking forward to finding all these scrying pages if I can't do them.

Maybe this is a free feature in the base game now and I just don't know about it, [snip] (Yes I know the actual workers, the coders, the programmers are doing an awesome job, [snip]

Just venting since we can't sell our stolen items to Fences, something we paid for and should be able to do. This just shows how Zenimax doesn't even do any quality checks on the consoles and do just straight ports from PC. This should have been found within 5 minutes of playing. Maybe Zenimax does do quality checks [snip]

[snip]

[Edited to remove Bashing]

God it'd be GREAT if I actually knew what you originally said. I guess seeing that [snip] makes me think higher of ZOS. /s

They're relying increasingly on aggressive marketing tactics, which I'd interpret as a sign of desperation. It's always been there, but it's sucking the enjoyment out of the game for a lot of folks. This game goes F2P, I'm out.

@Destai

It’s already free to play on Xbox.

Destai · June 2020

TheValkyn wrote: »

Destai wrote: »

Davor wrote: »

Usually I don't say this, but after having the huge, bug on Xbox where we can't sell our goods to the Fences and then encountering this, just made me want to vent.

I haven't bought Greymoor, so when I encountered a page about scrying (or what ever it is called) I look into the details in how to do it, and Zenimax basically says you need to buy Greymoor to do it. Like WTF? I don't recall ever having to buy a "story" to be able to do something that gives you in game to do. At least Summerset never did it. I know when I didn't buy Summerset right away on Xbox (did on PC) I never got something on Xbox to say "here you go, do this but need to buy Summerset to do.

So is Zenimax getting desperate now, by giving something, a simple where to scrye without buying Greymoor, so people would buy it now? I am not looking forward to finding all these scrying pages if I can't do them.

Maybe this is a free feature in the base game now and I just don't know about it, [snip] (Yes I know the actual workers, the coders, the programmers are doing an awesome job, [snip]

Just venting since we can't sell our stolen items to Fences, something we paid for and should be able to do. This just shows how Zenimax doesn't even do any quality checks on the consoles and do just straight ports from PC. This should have been found within 5 minutes of playing. Maybe Zenimax does do quality checks [snip]

[snip]

[Edited to remove Bashing]

God it'd be GREAT if I actually knew what you originally said. I guess seeing that [snip] makes me think higher of ZOS. /s

They're relying increasingly on aggressive marketing tactics, which I'd interpret as a sign of desperation. It's always been there, but it's sucking the enjoyment out of the game for a lot of folks. This game goes F2P, I'm out.

@Destai

It’s already free to play on Xbox.

That's game pass and I'm on PS4 mostly. It's a buy-to-play game.

xaraan · June 2020

Every expansion seems to follow a basic formula of the new large zone/story, some sort of skill line, new trial. Antiquities is just the Greymoor version of Psijiic/Jewelry crafting, Warden, Necromancer and I'd bet if vampires were not already in the game, that skill line would have been locked behind it as well. That's just how they do it and yea, it is a bit pay to win to have the new stuff (and often powerful stuff) every year locked behind a paywall, but it is a buy to play game, not F2P i guess.

I was somewhat ok with the format outside of two issues: ESO+ subbers were initially promised when the game went B2P - 4 content updates a year, and if you already bought expansions or during the first year of MW, you are only getting 3 a year. And second - the price keeps going up. This update was not worth more than last years IMO, at this point it's costing almost as much as if when we bought the game new at launch. Combined with the fact that, sure, any MMO will always end up making things much easier for players catching up to do so (which can make vets feel like their accomplishments are meh), they are now making veteran players fall behind by having existing content need to be redone because new players will get better rewards than you did when you did them. So not only is it 100x easier for a new player to get to where I'm at in the game, but they will actually be ahead of me just doing the same content (that's even easier now b/c of power creep). Not fond of the direction of the game in those respects, though I'm not wholly against making it easier for new players to get into the game (sometimes I think it's just handled a bit heavy-handedly).

I also have to say, looking back at the release as a whole - this has been the worst of the 'expansions' in playability. Antiquities (as a skill line) has no sizable value in repeating on different characters like creating multiple new characters of a new class or leveling a new skill line like psijic (which admittedly can also be a good thing for many players). The questline is decent, but nothing to write home about imo = it's fine. The Harrowstorms are a mess: overtuned with lackluster rewards and horrible spawn cycles. Cyrodiil is still a mess after 4 performance updates. The mythic items are ok, but it's a half and half thing with some so overtuned everyone is running it now and others mostly ignored. The new item sets from the trial are horrible. Probably the best thing about the update is housing if you are into it, with a lot of cool stuff added by antiquities and some new features added to decorating menu. But, as we all know, if you are into housing, it's also the more expensive part of the game and won't make you feel much better about the cost sink I talked about above. IMO this game is literally carried by the art/design/story teams as the technical aspects of the game: performance and balance having been a mess so long many have given up hope.

idk · June 2020

The fence bug is a known issue across platforms that Zos has acknowledged and expects to have it fixed within a few weeks. It is in the Dev Tracker if you want to see Gina's actual statement.

Kiralyn2000 · June 2020

heaven13 wrote: »

Doesn't change the fact that FOMO is a new old tactic used for selling chapters everything. Everywhere.

Fixed that for you.

...personally, I don't see a difference between getting Leads (oh, sorry, can't do that without Greymoor) and running into Thieves' Troves (oh, sorry, can't do that without TG). News flash - MMOs that get new expansions with new features? You'll run into reminders that you don't have access to those new features. This is nothing new.

Sibenice · June 2020

The leads are a quick, occasional, random loot notification. They don't take up inventory space and they don't let you know they're there after you get them. Is this really such a big deal?

MurderMostFoul · June 2020

If I didn't buy Greymoor, I'd still prefer to get leads in case I changed my mind.

Sergykid · June 2020

i can transmute without Clockwork, i can buy crafted jewels without Summerset, but i can't buy Mythic items or the skill line for them.

heaven13 · June 2020

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

heaven13 wrote: »

Doesn't change the fact that FOMO is a new old tactic used for selling chapters everything. Everywhere.

Fixed that for you.

...personally, I don't see a difference between getting Leads (oh, sorry, can't do that without Greymoor) and running into Thieves' Troves (oh, sorry, can't do that without TG). News flash - MMOs that get new expansions with new features? You'll run into reminders that you don't have access to those new features. This is nothing new.

Yeah, I can see why some people would feel these two things are very similar. However, as I explained above, thieves troves are a) static in the world, like nodes and can be ignored by a player without TG b) all loot from them can be sold via guild traders and c) have no expiration timers.

Leads are account bound as is the content received from people participating in antiquities and the RNG nature of their drops means you can't avoid getting them. You might be harvesting a survey map in Coldharbour and get a lead for the gold Void Crystal Anomaly...it shows up in your loot log, shows up in your journal, and you start getting achievements. So you've "participated" in the system without even planning or wanting to rather than just seeing a thing you can't interact with. And then you'll find out that gold lead is also going to expire if you don't scry for it. It's a bit more in-your-face pop-up ads than we've had for prior chapter systems.

Elsonso · June 2020

heaven13 wrote: »

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

heaven13 wrote: »

Doesn't change the fact that FOMO is a new old tactic used for selling chapters everything. Everywhere.

Fixed that for you.

...personally, I don't see a difference between getting Leads (oh, sorry, can't do that without Greymoor) and running into Thieves' Troves (oh, sorry, can't do that without TG). News flash - MMOs that get new expansions with new features? You'll run into reminders that you don't have access to those new features. This is nothing new.

Yeah, I can see why some people would feel these two things are very similar. However, as I explained above, thieves troves are a) static in the world, like nodes and can be ignored by a player without TG b) all loot from them can be sold via guild traders and c) have no expiration timers.

Leads are account bound as is the content received from people participating in antiquities and the RNG nature of their drops means you can't avoid getting them. You might be harvesting a survey map in Coldharbour and get a lead for the gold Void Crystal Anomaly...it shows up in your loot log, shows up in your journal, and you start getting achievements. So you've "participated" in the system without even planning or wanting to rather than just seeing a thing you can't interact with. And then you'll find out that gold lead is also going to expire if you don't scry for it. It's a bit more in-your-face pop-up ads than we've had for prior chapter systems.

In both cases, they have no real impact upon you other than visual awareness that they are there. Both the contents of the trove and the leads are unavailable to you, and go away without you being able to act on them. Both take no inventory space. One glows and sings at you while the other pops up two messages (one if you don't show loot).

This is beginning to sound more like a "I hate Greymoor and want no part of it" than anything else.

heaven13 · June 2020

Elsonso wrote: »

heaven13 wrote: »

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

heaven13 wrote: »

Doesn't change the fact that FOMO is a new old tactic used for selling chapters everything. Everywhere.

Fixed that for you.

...personally, I don't see a difference between getting Leads (oh, sorry, can't do that without Greymoor) and running into Thieves' Troves (oh, sorry, can't do that without TG). News flash - MMOs that get new expansions with new features? You'll run into reminders that you don't have access to those new features. This is nothing new.

Yeah, I can see why some people would feel these two things are very similar. However, as I explained above, thieves troves are a) static in the world, like nodes and can be ignored by a player without TG b) all loot from them can be sold via guild traders and c) have no expiration timers.

Leads are account bound as is the content received from people participating in antiquities and the RNG nature of their drops means you can't avoid getting them. You might be harvesting a survey map in Coldharbour and get a lead for the gold Void Crystal Anomaly...it shows up in your loot log, shows up in your journal, and you start getting achievements. So you've "participated" in the system without even planning or wanting to rather than just seeing a thing you can't interact with. And then you'll find out that gold lead is also going to expire if you don't scry for it. It's a bit more in-your-face pop-up ads than we've had for prior chapter systems.

In both cases, they have no real impact upon you other than visual awareness that they are there. Both the contents of the trove and the leads are unavailable to you, and go away without you being able to act on them. Both take no inventory space. One glows and sings at you while the other pops up two messages (one if you don't show loot).

This is beginning to sound more like a "I hate Greymoor and want no part of it" than anything else.

Can you please stop trying to put words in my mouth? I never said I experience FOMO, but was discussing the general marketing tactic. I've never said I "hate" Greymoor. If you want to try to ascribe these attitudes to me personally, when I am just discussing the shift in marketing, that's on you. Furthermore, if people having a critical viewpoint of something you think should be accepted as-is is somehow offensive, you can choose not to engage.

Kiralyn2000 · June 2020

I've been seeing "limited time offer!" TV/radio/print advertisements for over 4 decades now. People trying to sell things, appealing to the customer's "fear of missing out" is not some new thing.

(and yeah, it's not even remotely a new thing here - there've been 'limited time' and 'ooh, here's a countdown until this item is removed' things in the crown store since before there were Chapters.)

Only difference is that posting forum rants about "FOMO" is a popular FOTM topic.

Advertising has been trying to convince you to BUY BUY BUY for centuries (using time pressure, sex, appeals to your vanity, the threat that your neighbor/rival might have better stuff than you, and more). Part of being an adult is learning to have some control over yourself, so as not to be the picture next to "A fool and his money are soon parted".

Linaleah · June 2020

daemonios wrote: »

ValueDrift wrote: »

daemonios wrote: »

You couldn't research jewellery crafting, deconstruct pieces of jewelry, or obtain the psijic skill line without buying Summerset iirc. Same with Morrowind and warden class, Elsweyr and necromancers, or clockwork city (maybe Morrowind?) and transmutation. Also, since dungeon dropped gear can only be traded within the group, you're locked out of dungeon and monster sets for which you don't own the DLC (unless you have ESO+).

The content you listed isn't constantly shoved in the face of people who don't have access to it, the same way leads are. It is a matter of opinion if this advertising strategy is nice or not, but it is an advertising strategy.

I may very well be wrong because I own the content, but:

- Do you not get transmutation stones/geodes regardless of whether you own clockwork city? In fact, I think you can even transmute without the DLC if you or someone who gives you access to their home have a transmutation station there. But if you don't, transmutation stones would be "constantly shoved in the face of people who don't have access to" transmutation.

- Can you not get exemplary jewellery pieces, besides the ones that drop from psijic portals, if you don't own Summerset? Since their sole purpose is research, they would also be a reminder of content you don't own.

- Other players running around with bears or ghosts on tow, or spamming other locked class abilities, are also a constant advertisement of said classes.

you get the stones but can only use them if transmutation station is available at someone else's house and you have acess to it
you can get exemplary jewelry pieces and JC materials, but you cannot research them and as far as i know - you cannot use JC stations. you CAN sell those to vendor or at guild traders

yes.

so while you are wrong about some of the things you can acess - you are correct, some portions of those features have been in base game for years now and are very much an advertisement for content.

what is new with leads is that they expire, creating a sense of urgency.

Elsonso · June 2020

heaven13 wrote: »

I am just discussing the shift in marketing

That's just it. I don't see any shift in marketing. They may be improving on it, but this goes back YEARS with this game.

ImmortalCX · June 2020

daemonios wrote: »

You couldn't research jewellery crafting, deconstruct pieces of jewelry, or obtain the psijic skill line without buying Summerset iirc. Same with Morrowind and warden class, Elsweyr and necromancers, or clockwork city (maybe Morrowind?) and transmutation. Also, since dungeon dropped gear can only be traded within the group, you're locked out of dungeon and monster sets for which you don't own the DLC (unless you have ESO+).

EDIT: For what it's worth, I'm not saying the current system is good. On the contrary, I'm a strong supporter of mandatory subscriptions with no other paywalls, as opposed to piecemeal sale and shady in-game store monetisation, which is what we're getting. I do agree partly with what OP seems to be getting at, which is that this model makes the game look like an ugly quilt of vaguely related content.

I love the system as it is now.

If you are fairly enterprising and trustworthy, many people are willing to trade crown store items for gold. I don't sub to ESO+ but I have been able to buy every DLC using gold I made in game.

I am saving up even more gold to buy some other things.

I wouldn't play if there was a sub. if you want to run the lastest xpac, you do have to pay $40/yr, otherwise you can buy all the old stuff as DLC with gold/crowns.