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War machine and master architect, what should be done.
JinMori
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These 2 sets are really cool, but they suffer from a problem, low uptime and succeeded by better sets, this shouldn't be the case, there literally is no reason to run fabrication at this point, so what could me done to make them better?
I have 2 proposals.
1. only spreads to 1 person, but you can get theoretically 100 % uptime with a low cost ulti, and a good rotation.
2. spreads to 2 people but uptime cannot be higher than 70 %.
Personally i think the best of the two is by far the first option, why?
Because this sets suffers from support set syndrome, not to the level of alkosh but the thing still applies. What happens when a dps set affects to many people other than yourself? What happens is that the dps running the set feels like he's wasting his or her dps, because another person could just run the set in place of him or her, and still get the buff, that is why, spreads to 1 person only, and 100% uptime is better, but to make it different and better than lokke for some setups it needs something to distinguish it, so the spreading of the buff should still be there, only reduced so it doesn't become support set.
I'm also a firm believer that old trial and dungeon sets should have a perfected version, surely trials, i would also like dungeons.
Edited by JinMori on June 13, 2020 2:01PM I have 2 proposals.
1. only spreads to 1 person, but you can get theoretically 100 % uptime with a low cost ulti, and a good rotation.
2. spreads to 2 people but uptime cannot be higher than 70 %.
Personally i think the best of the two is by far the first option, why?
Because this sets suffers from support set syndrome, not to the level of alkosh but the thing still applies. What happens when a dps set affects to many people other than yourself? What happens is that the dps running the set feels like he's wasting his or her dps, because another person could just run the set in place of him or her, and still get the buff, that is why, spreads to 1 person only, and 100% uptime is better, but to make it different and better than lokke for some setups it needs something to distinguish it, so the spreading of the buff should still be there, only reduced so it doesn't become support set.
I'm also a firm believer that old trial and dungeon sets should have a perfected version, surely trials, i would also like dungeons.
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mairwen85✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I thought you didn't play any more?
On your suggestion, it would be great to see some older sets modernised, but I also feel they are redundant outside of niche situations for a reason. They aren't relics and master architect in particular does get used as both a support set and dps set in certain group compositions. I think it's more a case of organic succession; as the game has matured so have the player requirements. I'd rather see what has been learnt be applied to new gear, than see older sets revitalised to some new pseudo-meta.Edited by mairwen85 on June 9, 2020 1:50PM3 -
Danksta✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭It never bothered me to run a buff/debuff set as a dps as long as it made sense for a dps to run it. Actually there was something I really liked about the days of NMG/Sunderflame.BawKinTackWarDs PS4/NA6 -
The_Auror✭✭✭Or we could get some good new sets that actually drop from new content.
The vMA/vDSA weapon thing was the perfect distraction to make players forget how terrible the KA sets are. Now they know they can just phone in some garbage new sets for new content and slap "perfected" with a useless bonus on old gear and everyone will happily go refarm that. Can't wait to refarm vHoF for gear in 2021.1 -
Rezdayn✭✭✭✭✭Or we could get some good new sets that actually drop from new content.
The vMA/vDSA weapon thing was the perfect distraction to make players forget how terrible the KA sets are. Now they know they can just phone in some garbage new sets for new content and slap "perfected" with a useless bonus on old gear and everyone will happily go refarm that. Can't wait to refarm vHoF for gear in 2021.
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JinMori✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I thought you didn't play any more?
On your suggestion, it would be great to see some older sets modernised, but I also feel they are redundant outside of niche situations for a reason. They aren't relics and master architect in particular does get used as both a support set and dps set in certain group compositions. I think it's more a case of organic succession; as the game has matured so have the player requirements. I'd rather see what has been learnt be applied to new gear, than see older sets revitalised to some new pseudo-meta.
Not exactly.
My stance on eso at the moment is this:
I will play the game when i want to, and i will talk about suggestions on the forums when i want to. But, i do not expect zos to do what is needed to be done, and even if they do i will not praise them a lot, because at this point it's more of a "about damn time" rather than a "good change". If the game falls into oblivion i will not give a *** about it, because that's what they deserve, at the moment ofc, if they do eventually redeem themselves good, but it will take some time, and i don;t think they will, zos has proved time and time again that their approach to making the game better is very low effort.
About the perfected old sets etc, i am fully in favor of this, it doesn't really take a long time to farm them anyway, a couple of vma runs and i got both the bow and the inferno. The reason why i called out zos previously was not because of the vma perfected thing, but more because i despise dishonesty, for example when they made the comparison between a car and this thing, to justify the change, which was not the same thing, like at all, it would have been way better if he just said, i want to make this change because i feel like players should earn them again, because at the end of the day that's what it is. And second, i dislike when professionals go on forums or twitter or whatever to try to get brownie points about irrelevant things, you are here to make a better game, not to debate about things with other people.
You talk about the changes professionally, say your point of view and then see what happens, you do not get into a debate to try to score brownie points, it doesn't matter if you are talking about it as a zos employee or at home talking about things, if you disclose yourself, and make it known that you are a zos developer people will naturally treat you as a zos employee rather than just a person at home, if you want to talk about your point of view and say some *** online, create a second account so no one knows who you actually are.
But the perfected change would go hand in hand with a new difficulty, which is something iv'e talked quite in depth and one of the things they need to do to eventually get rid of power creep once and for all, so we can finally have some progression again, whether it is cp of whatever, because right now the game is stagnating a bit.
Finally, about the war machine etc, i think that my suggestion is about the best thing they can do to make this set good again, this is especially needed for mag, as they do not have a lot of sets to go around, and iv'e also always liked these sets, they are dps with some support, which is good, but needs to be carefully balanced, to avoid the problems iv'e said before.Edited by JinMori on June 9, 2020 5:01PM0 -
Stx✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Master architect is still very nice in dungeons on a tank. You can get a very high uptime for both your dps.0 -
Foefaller✭✭✭Considering last patch added perfected versions for all the arena weapons that didn't have it before, perfected gear for the trials that don't have them seems like a strong possibility. Will probably revisit the sets at that time too.
To me, "Support set Syndrome" comes not from the ability to effect 4-12 players, but because the rarity or uniqueness of the buff in question. The surest way to making a set a must-have for support, IMO, is to give it something nothing else can do, like a massive, always-stackable resistance debuff.Edited by Foefaller on June 9, 2020 7:35PM0 -
JinMori✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Considering last patch added perfected versions for all the arena weapons that didn't have it before, perfected gear for the trials that don't have them seems like a strong possibility. Will probably revisit the sets at that time too.
To me, "Support set Syndrome" comes not from the ability to effect 4-12 players, but because the rarity or uniqueness of the buff in question. The surest way to making a set a must-have for support, IMO, is to give it something nothing else can do, like a massive, always-stackable resistance debuff.
That is partially wrong, if that was the case a set that provided a pretty much useless bonus would still be desirable because it's unique, or a set that provides a buff only to you but it's unique, it doesn't make it support.
No, what makes something a support set is for how many players the buff or debuff affect, and how good the buff or debuff is.
Alkosh is a support set because of this, roaring was nearly one, both probably unintended, but at this point alkosh is a staple set so they will probably not change it, although the damage requirement of roaring is just too high to make it a true full support set, which is why i said nearly, now it's just a trash can set.
If they were to increase the duration of master architect/machine to about 100 % without reducing the spreading thing it would be dangerously close to support set, basically 2 dps would run it, and most probably those 2 dps would feel a bit bad about it, because they are technically losing potential damage, because another person could run it and still get the buff, but the set still need something to distinguish it from lokke, aside the proc from ulti, so i proposed, 100% uptime or close, and only spreads to 1. If still too much, well, make it only on yourself as a last effort.
This would be particularly good for magicka, since they do not really have a lot of good sets to go around.
Edited by JinMori on June 9, 2020 7:59PM0 -
JinMori✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Iv'e had another idea actually, what if...
The duration of major slayer is dependent not on ulti cast,but rather ulti cost, so if 70 ulti grant you 20 sec, that means that each ulti is about 0.25 sec on major slayer, this would make it more useful on classes that do not have access to a low cost ulti.
But then, they would have to remove the spread to people thing, otherwise it would just become a better lokke.
I think either it's used only on low cost ulties, it's useful for nb, templar and warden, can spread to 1 person max, and uptime is about 80 to 100% depending on how good you are at managing your ulti, or, the buff does not spread, the duration is based on ultimate spent rather than ulti cast.
But the problem with that is that it would kinda ruin a part of the idea of the set, but it would still be way better than it is now, and as i said before, magicka really need some new good sets other than siroria, which is really difficult to use or false god, which is comparable to a stam set from craglorn.
You can get about 46% uptime with 70 ulti cost at the moment, if it was doubled to 20, you could possibly reach 100% or close.Edited by JinMori on June 13, 2020 2:03PM0 -
zvavi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Look, making it one person only will make war machine inferior and too close mechanic wise to lokke anyway.
It will be 100% useless in trials anyway cause of roaring opportunist (lol) and affecting too little players.
What could be done is changing the proc to total of 4 people, making sure dungeon people all get the buff unconditionally of their placement, while making it interesting in trials where dds split into two groups, adding a possible minigame to fill the gaps of roaring opportunist.1 -
JinMori✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Look, making it one person only will make war machine inferior and too close mechanic wise to lokke anyway.
It will be 100% useless in trials anyway cause of roaring opportunist (lol) and affecting too little players.
What could be done is changing the proc to total of 4 people, making sure dungeon people all get the buff unconditionally of their placement, while making it interesting in trials where dds split into two groups, adding a possible minigame to fill the gaps of roaring opportunist.
It was more an idea for mag to be honest, roaring in my opinion is not a great set from a design standpoint, also we already have quite a few similar sets
And i the point about inferiority, i mean it already is to be honest. So what's even the point of bringing it up.Edited by JinMori on June 13, 2020 3:23PM0 -
zvavi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Look, making it one person only will make war machine inferior and too close mechanic wise to lokke anyway.
It will be 100% useless in trials anyway cause of roaring opportunist (lol) and affecting too little players.
What could be done is changing the proc to total of 4 people, making sure dungeon people all get the buff unconditionally of their placement, while making it interesting in trials where dds split into two groups, adding a possible minigame to fill the gaps of roaring opportunist.
It was more an idea for mag to be honest, roaring in my opinion is not a great set from a design standpoint, also we already have quite a few similar sets
And i the point about inferiority, i mean it already is to be honest. So what's even the point of bringing it up.
I still think that making it 4 people is a much better answer, sets that provide 100% uptime on major slayer are just bad by design imo. If you really want you can add 2 seconds to the uptime (for total of 12) but I don't think any more would be fair.0 -
Jaimeh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭They're still useful for when you're playing solo, for example some people use them for boss burns in vMA, and MA still used in trials (since RO needs a very special support build to yield good uptimes), but yeah overall they've been overshadowed, WM especially, since Lokke was released.0 -
JinMori✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Look, making it one person only will make war machine inferior and too close mechanic wise to lokke anyway.
It will be 100% useless in trials anyway cause of roaring opportunist (lol) and affecting too little players.
What could be done is changing the proc to total of 4 people, making sure dungeon people all get the buff unconditionally of their placement, while making it interesting in trials where dds split into two groups, adding a possible minigame to fill the gaps of roaring opportunist.
It was more an idea for mag to be honest, roaring in my opinion is not a great set from a design standpoint, also we already have quite a few similar sets
And i the point about inferiority, i mean it already is to be honest. So what's even the point of bringing it up.
I still think that making it 4 people is a much better answer, sets that provide 100% uptime on major slayer are just bad by design imo. If you really want you can add 2 seconds to the uptime (for total of 12) but I don't think any more would be fair.
Gotta disagree, i think that a really good rotation should award as close to 100 % as possible.
War machine would be an alternative to lokke, and mag would finally get a good set comparable to stamina.0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Look, making it one person only will make war machine inferior and too close mechanic wise to lokke anyway.
It will be 100% useless in trials anyway cause of roaring opportunist (lol) and affecting too little players.
What could be done is changing the proc to total of 4 people, making sure dungeon people all get the buff unconditionally of their placement, while making it interesting in trials where dds split into two groups, adding a possible minigame to fill the gaps of roaring opportunist.
It was more an idea for mag to be honest, roaring in my opinion is not a great set from a design standpoint, also we already have quite a few similar sets
And i the point about inferiority, i mean it already is to be honest. So what's even the point of bringing it up.
I still think that making it 4 people is a much better answer, sets that provide 100% uptime on major slayer are just bad by design imo. If you really want you can add 2 seconds to the uptime (for total of 12) but I don't think any more would be fair.
Gotta disagree, i think that a really good rotation should award as close to 100 % as possible.
War machine would be an alternative to lokke, and mag would finally get a good set comparable to stamina.
Since both sets are stamina one being an alternative for the other would do nothing for Magicka. Master Architect is Magicka.
It is clear Zos intended War machine and Master Architect to be how they are. They provide a buff not only to the caster but to two other group members. How beneficial the set is is really depending on having low-cost ultimates. As a result, it would not make sense to make one work like another set.
Further, as I already said, how beneficial these sets are is depending on the cost of the ultimate and how fast a build generates ultimate. That also plays into how high the uptime is and as a result, there is no reason to expect 100% uptimes for all builds. Only potentially possible with the fairly cheap ultimates.
Sunspire is not the first time Zos did not make the stam DPS and Mag DPS trial sets identical. vMoL is a great case where the mag set was good for DPS (at the time) but the stam set ended up being preferred for tanking and became the tanking meta instead of a DPS meta.
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JinMori✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Look, making it one person only will make war machine inferior and too close mechanic wise to lokke anyway.
It will be 100% useless in trials anyway cause of roaring opportunist (lol) and affecting too little players.
What could be done is changing the proc to total of 4 people, making sure dungeon people all get the buff unconditionally of their placement, while making it interesting in trials where dds split into two groups, adding a possible minigame to fill the gaps of roaring opportunist.
It was more an idea for mag to be honest, roaring in my opinion is not a great set from a design standpoint, also we already have quite a few similar sets
And i the point about inferiority, i mean it already is to be honest. So what's even the point of bringing it up.
I still think that making it 4 people is a much better answer, sets that provide 100% uptime on major slayer are just bad by design imo. If you really want you can add 2 seconds to the uptime (for total of 12) but I don't think any more would be fair.
Gotta disagree, i think that a really good rotation should award as close to 100 % as possible.
War machine would be an alternative to lokke, and mag would finally get a good set comparable to stamina.
Since both sets are stamina one being an alternative for the other would do nothing for Magicka. Master Architect is Magicka.
It is clear Zos intended War machine and Master Architect to be how they are. They provide a buff not only to the caster but to two other group members. How beneficial the set is is really depending on having low-cost ultimates. As a result, it would not make sense to make one work like another set.
Further, as I already said, how beneficial these sets are is depending on the cost of the ultimate and how fast a build generates ultimate. That also plays into how high the uptime is and as a result, there is no reason to expect 100% uptimes for all builds. Only potentially possible with the fairly cheap ultimates.
Sunspire is not the first time Zos did not make the stam DPS and Mag DPS trial sets identical. vMoL is a great case where the mag set was good for DPS (at the time) but the stam set ended up being preferred for tanking and became the tanking meta instead of a DPS meta.
Master architect is magicka, yes i know, did you read the first post? It was obvious that when i said that i was implying that i meant master architect when i said "and finally magicka would get a set comparable to stamina".
I'm just throwing out ideas man, it's not the first time zos would change a set to keep it more in like with what we currently have, and it would give magicka an option aside siroria or pfg. Most other sets just fall short of what stamina has, and siroria really is not that good, so that only really leaves pfg as a really good set, comparable to what stamina has, but even that set is basically something that stam had since craglorn.
Since i also mentioned siroria, i think the buff duration is too unforgiving, it should last 10 seconds. and the circle below maybe 5 so it's easier to reposition, and it would be generally more useful.Edited by JinMori on June 13, 2020 9:30PM0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Look, making it one person only will make war machine inferior and too close mechanic wise to lokke anyway.
It will be 100% useless in trials anyway cause of roaring opportunist (lol) and affecting too little players.
What could be done is changing the proc to total of 4 people, making sure dungeon people all get the buff unconditionally of their placement, while making it interesting in trials where dds split into two groups, adding a possible minigame to fill the gaps of roaring opportunist.
It was more an idea for mag to be honest, roaring in my opinion is not a great set from a design standpoint, also we already have quite a few similar sets
And i the point about inferiority, i mean it already is to be honest. So what's even the point of bringing it up.
I still think that making it 4 people is a much better answer, sets that provide 100% uptime on major slayer are just bad by design imo. If you really want you can add 2 seconds to the uptime (for total of 12) but I don't think any more would be fair.
Gotta disagree, i think that a really good rotation should award as close to 100 % as possible.
War machine would be an alternative to lokke, and mag would finally get a good set comparable to stamina.
Since both sets are stamina one being an alternative for the other would do nothing for Magicka. Master Architect is Magicka.
It is clear Zos intended War machine and Master Architect to be how they are. They provide a buff not only to the caster but to two other group members. How beneficial the set is is really depending on having low-cost ultimates. As a result, it would not make sense to make one work like another set.
Further, as I already said, how beneficial these sets are is depending on the cost of the ultimate and how fast a build generates ultimate. That also plays into how high the uptime is and as a result, there is no reason to expect 100% uptimes for all builds. Only potentially possible with the fairly cheap ultimates.
Sunspire is not the first time Zos did not make the stam DPS and Mag DPS trial sets identical. vMoL is a great case where the mag set was good for DPS (at the time) but the stam set ended up being preferred for tanking and became the tanking meta instead of a DPS meta.
Master architect is magicka, yes i know, did you read the first post? It was obvious that when i said that i was implying that i meant master architect when i said "and finally magicka would get a set comparable to stamina"
Yes, I noted Master Architect is Magicka in what you quoted. Yes, I make mistakes as well from time to time. Maybe edit the post so someone else does not bring up the same thing.
I was just noting the post did not make sense along with my logic for not needing to change any of the sets.0 -
JinMori✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Look, making it one person only will make war machine inferior and too close mechanic wise to lokke anyway.
It will be 100% useless in trials anyway cause of roaring opportunist (lol) and affecting too little players.
What could be done is changing the proc to total of 4 people, making sure dungeon people all get the buff unconditionally of their placement, while making it interesting in trials where dds split into two groups, adding a possible minigame to fill the gaps of roaring opportunist.
It was more an idea for mag to be honest, roaring in my opinion is not a great set from a design standpoint, also we already have quite a few similar sets
And i the point about inferiority, i mean it already is to be honest. So what's even the point of bringing it up.
I still think that making it 4 people is a much better answer, sets that provide 100% uptime on major slayer are just bad by design imo. If you really want you can add 2 seconds to the uptime (for total of 12) but I don't think any more would be fair.
Gotta disagree, i think that a really good rotation should award as close to 100 % as possible.
War machine would be an alternative to lokke, and mag would finally get a good set comparable to stamina.
Since both sets are stamina one being an alternative for the other would do nothing for Magicka. Master Architect is Magicka.
It is clear Zos intended War machine and Master Architect to be how they are. They provide a buff not only to the caster but to two other group members. How beneficial the set is is really depending on having low-cost ultimates. As a result, it would not make sense to make one work like another set.
Further, as I already said, how beneficial these sets are is depending on the cost of the ultimate and how fast a build generates ultimate. That also plays into how high the uptime is and as a result, there is no reason to expect 100% uptimes for all builds. Only potentially possible with the fairly cheap ultimates.
Sunspire is not the first time Zos did not make the stam DPS and Mag DPS trial sets identical. vMoL is a great case where the mag set was good for DPS (at the time) but the stam set ended up being preferred for tanking and became the tanking meta instead of a DPS meta.
Master architect is magicka, yes i know, did you read the first post? It was obvious that when i said that i was implying that i meant master architect when i said "and finally magicka would get a set comparable to stamina"
Yes, I noted Master Architect is Magicka in what you quoted. Yes, I make mistakes as well from time to time. Maybe edit the post so someone else does not bring up the same thing.
I was just noting the post did not make sense along with my logic for not needing to change any of the sets.
There is a problem i would point out about stamina though, and i think it has to do with the dots nerfs, i remember that before they decided to destroy dots, stam and mag were dealing relatively the same damage with similarly powerful sets, but now, magicka is always my best dps as long as i do not use relequen, i think it has to do with maelstrom arena weapons.
Endless hail was nerfed and as a result so was bow indirectly, but staff was not.
It's not something i know 100% sure, but i have a hunch, because the overall max and average damage from skills is about the same, so it has to be this, or maybe mag also has better skills overall. Or maybe stam was more impacted by the dot nerfs compared to magicka, but i don;t think that;'s the case.
Why i talked about this? Because if they were to make a comparable set for magicka, they would also have to fix this disparity, otherwise mag would become undisputed kings of dps.
Relequen gives the illusion that stamina is doing just as well as magicka in st, but they really aren't, it's just that relequen carries them.Edited by JinMori on June 13, 2020 9:58PM0