Mystic Orb nerf WHEN?

MrBrownstone · June 2020

Remember how you standardized all the dot skills and destroyed most of the class dots? Well you forgot about Mystic Orb, it's currently overperforming compared to other dots and is slotted in almost any scenario, better damage with better radius WHILE providing a synergy to the whole group. It's the best dot in the game without a doubt and I thought that you were going to make class dots stronger...

I don't know why I included Lightning Flood here, it shouldn't even be considered as a skill at all since it's the weakest of all and IT LASTS FOR 9 SECONDS INSTEAD OF 10. You can't even bother fixing this. But anyway, I'll let you compare these dots so you can see how overloaded Orb is.

iCaliban · June 2020

Why would you want it nerfed? Even if your premise is true, which it isnt. Orb travels. Getting all the ticks on a single target is nearly impossible.

More importantly, why in the world would you want a rather cool looking skill destroyed? Simply buff class dots a bit. These forums. Smh

MrBrownstone · June 2020

iCaliban wrote: »

Why would you want it nerfed? Even if your premise is true, which it isnt. Orb travels. Getting all the ticks on a single target is nearly impossible.

More importantly, why in the world would you want a rather cool looking skill destroyed? Simply buff class dots a bit. These forums. Smh

I don't want it destroyed, I just want it to deal less damage compared to others because it's supposed to be a utility skill, not a damage skill. A small damage reduction will be enough.I don't think the class dots need buffs since they're worth slotting currently (except one)

Also, do you see how the class dots have extra damage abilities? Like Conduit for Sorc (+795 damage) or Blazing Spear initial hit (+763 damage)? Orb also explodes for 795 damage which can be activated 11 TIMES in a trial. Even the synergy is overperforming, let alone the damage.

It has;
- Much better damage
- Much better radius
- Much better synergy

Yes it can't be used in every scenario but it's still useful in 90% of the content. What they have to do is; nerf its damage by 20% and buff Lightning Flood damage by 20%. Also fix the duration.

I want Orb to work like this:
- Energy Orb: slotted by Healer
- Mystic Orb: slotted by dd when the group lacks a healer

It should be an alternative, not the best.

WrathOfInnos · June 2020

Orb seems about right, it’s some of the class DoTs that need to be adjusted up. Winter’s Revenge and Twisting Path are balanced, and both do more damage than Mystic Orb.

It’s just that Boneyard, Lightning Flood, Eruption and Blazing Spear were never adjusted back up after the Dragonhold nerfs. Blazing is still used for Burning Light procs. Eruption has such a long duration with Elf Bane that DK’s use it despite the weak DoT. Boneyard is used to help with Major Fracture/Breach, and if it consumes a corpse for the 50% boost it’s not the worst skill in the game (considering the synergy as well). Flood/Liquid is just plain bad, lacking in duration, utility, and damage, it is just an all-around worse version of Boneyard (and Boneyard itself is a little too weak).

idk · June 2020

iCaliban wrote: »

Why would you want it nerfed? Even if your premise is true, which it isnt. Orb travels. Getting all the ticks on a single target is nearly impossible.

This, very much.

tsaescishoeshiner · June 2020

In addition to what the person above said, Orb has no skill line passives, unlike probably every other skill on your bar. Its usefulness now in stationary & AoE fights is a welcome change from uselessness. The synergy is better than others, but you'll often have multiple in a group/trial anyway — everyone will only activate that synergy if only ONE person is using it. It's necessary for group sustain. It sounds like we need to buff certain other skills rather than nerf this one

Re: the screenshots above you posted ...

Orb's damage over 10 seconds: 2360

Blazing spear's damage over 12 seconds (including Burning Light - 25% chance to deal 477 Magic Damage each tick): 2824

Winter's Revenge over 12 seconds: 2530
bonus: it's cheaper than all the others, and gets a >10% buff from class passives

Twisting Path over (I think) 12 seconds: 2592

Those skills ALL benefit from other class passives, as well, and are thus arguably better unless you need to provide Orb synergy

People have asked for Lightning Flood and Boneyard to be buffed ... i feel you there. Neither has great numbers, but Boneyard at least has secondary effects. Idk what's up with Eruption lmao ... one day it'll cost 10k Magicka
And just because these are all ground-targeted skills doesn't mean they should be compared? Each class' other available AoE DoTs (if any) should be brought up, as well as comparing how much these classes rely on AoE vs single target damage, DoTs vs direct damage, what gear they can wear, etc. Not sure how the DPS charts have settled this patch

Kadoin · June 2020

Really...?

Mindcr0w · June 2020

MrBrownstone wrote: »

I don't want it destroyed, I just want it to deal less damage compared to others because it's supposed to be a utility skill, not a damage skill

Looking at a thing that works well compared to other things that work less well, and concluding that the way to achieve better balance is to nerf the effective thing rather than to buff the ineffective things is exactly the sort of "developer" mindset that ruins combat in the long term.

yRaven · June 2020

MrBrownstone wrote: »

Mystic Orb nerf WHEN?

Never i hope

WikileaksEU · June 2020

Don't nerf the healing morph at least as it is essential for a healer build.

kongkim · June 2020

MrBrownstone wrote: »

Remember how you standardized all the dot skills and destroyed most of the class dots? Well you forgot about Mystic Orb, it's currently overperforming compared to other dots and is slotted in almost any scenario, better damage with better radius WHILE providing a synergy to the whole group. It's the best dot in the game without a doubt and I thought that you were going to make class dots stronger...

I don't know why I included Lightning Flood here, it shouldn't even be considered as a skill at all since it's the weakest of all and IT LASTS FOR 9 SECONDS INSTEAD OF 10. You can't even bother fixing this. But anyway, I'll let you compare these dots so you can see how overloaded Orb is.

Its its not you who stand for balance

MrBrownstone · June 2020

Mindcr0w wrote: »

MrBrownstone wrote: »

I don't want it destroyed, I just want it to deal less damage compared to others because it's supposed to be a utility skill, not a damage skill

Looking at a thing that works well compared to other things that work less well, and concluding that the way to achieve better balance is to nerf the effective thing rather than to buff the ineffective things is exactly the sort of "developer" mindset that ruins combat in the long term.

But the class dots aren not "ineffective" since they're being used. If they all were like Lightning Flood then ofc I'd ask for a buff.

WikileaksEU · June 2020

When you do calculations you have to add the initial damage into the 10 sec as well and not only the DoT damage. Blazing Spear becomes a total of 1630.

Mystic Orb 2360 damage.

So yeah, Mystic Orb does 730 more damage, though it moves and doesn't stay in one place like Blazing Spear for example and Mystic Orb got a dps synergy to it.

Blazing Spear becomes a safer dps abillity while Mystic Orb a more risky, as it moves.

And one more thing Mystic Orb can be used with the other abilities in the picture for additional dps, but the I don't see the reason to use Blazing Spear and Mystic Orb together as they both restore resource with the synergy.

MEBengalsFan2001 · June 2020

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Orb seems about right, it’s some of the class DoTs that need to be adjusted up. Winter’s Revenge and Twisting Path seem about right, and both do more damage than Mystic Orb.

It’s just that Boneyard, Lightning Flood, Eruption and Blazing Spear were never adjusted back up after the Dragonhold nerfs. Blazing is still used for Burning Light procs. Eruption has such a long duration with Elf Bane that DK’s use it despite the weak DoT. Boneyard is used to help with Major Fracture/Breach, and if it consumes a corpse for the 50% boost it’s not the worst skill in the game (considering the synergy as well). Flood/Liquid is just plain bad, lacking in duration, utility, and damage, it is just an all-around worse version of Boneyard (and Boneyard itself is a little too weak).

I find most content is to easy. Comments like this about upping the damage of other class abilities would simply make content even easier. Instead lowering the damage of Orb is more ideal.

IMO, I think everything needs to be adjusted downwards so that top damage dealers would only be pushing out 50-60K damage. Any time someone surpass that 60K mark, the primary damaging skills would be adjusted as needed. I'm pretty sure the devs have all of this data collected somewhere and can use to adjust the the damage of our character and make the game better.

I think this type of update would also benefit PVP as well.

DyingIsEasy · June 2020

Even if you nerfed the whole skill and morphs to do no damage/healing at all it would still be used for the synergy it provides to EVERYONE in the group.
That's how OP the skill really is.

So instead of having it do damage it should really only be utility via synergy and nothing else.

Mindcr0w · June 2020

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

IMO, I think everything needs to be adjusted downwards so that top damage dealers would only be pushing out 50-60K damage. Any time someone surpass that 60K mark, the primary damaging skills would be adjusted as needed. I'm pretty sure the devs have all of this data collected somewhere and can use to adjust the the damage of our character and make the game better.

And this would make a whole lot more content impossible to complete for people who are already on the lower end of the dps spectrum as their already low dps would be pushed even lower.

It might even make a whole lot of previously doable content suddenly impossible for mid tier players who suddenly get bumped down to what would currently be considered low tier.

JinMori · June 2020

Gotta disagree, if anything class dots should all provide a synergy and do slightly more damage, aside from maybe revenge and path.

You know what i would love to see though, this was already suggested from another thread some time ago, and i liked the idea a lot.

Basically, mystic orb would share the element of your staff, if no element, like resto staff, magic damage, if using a stamina weapon it would deal poison damage, stamina really needs another good dot to run, when you see these high stam parses it really is just relequen.

I would love to see a mini sun running over enemies, or a mini frost or shock orb. Would be so damn cool.

Also, what i will say here is not relevant to this thread, but they need to make a engulfing like ability for each element, otherwise fire damage will always be better regardless, it's better in aoe, and much better in st.

Lightning sorc liquid lightning/floods
Fire dk engulfing
Poison dk noxious
Physical or mag templar i was thinking purifying light/power of the light, i would also love to see stam plar get an execute class ability
Disease necro blastbones
Frost warden revenge or deep fissure, this skill would also be transformed to frost
Magic or phys nb twisting path

But if i remember correctly wrath had a better allocation for this, but i do not remember exactly.

Should really make a comprehensive post about every single thing that i or other people thought up, because some of them are really good in my opinion, some more difficult than others, but required at this point.

VoidCommander · June 2020

idk wrote: »

iCaliban wrote: »

Why would you want it nerfed? Even if your premise is true, which it isnt. Orb travels. Getting all the ticks on a single target is nearly impossible.

This, very much.

Apparently standing roughly 10 meters away when you cast orb is “nearly impossible.”

BaiterOfZergs · June 2020

Shhh 🤫 it is fine , the way it travels balance it out. Hardly used in pvp (except by those in the know) and if the complaint is directed towards pve then it’s not that serious either.

Arca94 · June 2020

To all who constantly complain that only PvPers ruin skills by crying for nerfs: I present to you this thread.

AmoralOne · June 2020

iCaliban wrote: »

Why would you want it nerfed? Even if your premise is true, which it isnt. Orb travels. Getting all the ticks on a single target is nearly impossible.

More importantly, why in the world would you want a rather cool looking skill destroyed? Simply buff class dots a bit. These forums. Smh

I am just glad someone said this.. Agree agree agree

jecks33 · June 2020

asking a nerf to the last "good" aoe magsorcs have is a "nerf sorcs post"?

WrathOfInnos · June 2020

Rather than just throwing out vague statements and opinions, I’ll add some hard data here. I was playing around with Mystic Orb oh Warden recently. Warden is a good class to test on because their passives provide the highest bonus to Orb (10% Magic Damage + 8% all damage for slotting 4 Animal Companions Skills). It’s also good for a comparison to class AoE DoTs because Winter’s Revenge benefits from the same passives as Orb, so no results are skewed.

Here is a parse from the current (more or less meta) Magden DPS build. You can see that Orb did 6424 DPS, while Winter’s Revenge did 8274 DPS. In this test Winter’s Revenge was 28% stronger than Orb, which is IMO an appropriate difference between a class DoT and generic DoT.

To keep a simple static rotation both these skills were cast once every 11s. Therefore Orb consumed 1/11 = 9.1% of Global Cooldowns and contributed 6.8% of DPS. Winter’s Revenge used the same 9.1% of GCD’s and contributed 8.7% of DPS.

In theory, Orb could have been cast every 10s and increased to 7066 DPS or 7.4% of DPS while consuming 10% of GCD’s. Even in this case it rightfully underperforms compared to a good class DoT. The problem lies in some classes having weak DoTs (like Flood), not in Orb being too strong. In practice a 10s static or dynamic rotation proved to be a DPS loss, so I find the previous numbers to be more informative.

If Orb were reduced to something more like 5% of DPS while still consuming 9-10% of GCD’s, it would not be used. That would put it on par with several other DoTs that have been found to be a DPS loss (Flame Reach, Consuming Trap, Lightning Flood etc.). I don’t think we need more dead skills in this game, Orb is balanced currently, don’t let it end up like Caltrops.

Nomad1098 · June 2020

Providing stock tooltips isn't a great way to prove a point. Maybe some dps parses from a raid would be better. I do believe if you did that, though, you would prove your post incorrect.

JinMori · June 2020

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Rather than just throwing out vague statements and opinions, I’ll add some hard data here. I was playing around with Mystic Orb oh Warden recently. Warden is a good class to test on because their passives provide the highest bonus to Orb (10% Magic Damage + 8% all damage for slotting 4 Animal Companions Skills). It’s also good for a comparison to class AoE DoTs because Winter’s Revenge benefits from the same passives as Orb, so no results are skewed.

Here is a parse from the current (more or less meta) Magden DPS build. You can see that Orb did 6424 DPS, while Winter’s Revenge did 8274 DPS. In this test Winter’s Revenge was 28% stronger than Orb, which is IMO an appropriate difference between a class DoT and generic DoT.

To keep a simple static rotation both these skills were cast once every 11s. Therefore Orb consumed 1/11 = 9.1% of Global Cooldowns and contributed 6.8% of DPS. Winter’s Revenge used the same 9.1% of GCD’s and contributed 8.7% of DPS.

In theory, Orb could have been cast every 10s and increased to 7066 DPS or 7.4% of DPS while consuming 10% of GCD’s. Even in this case it rightfully underperforms compared to a good class DoT. The problem lies in some classes having weak DoTs (like Flood), not in Orb being too strong. In practice a 10s static or dynamic rotation proved to be a DPS loss, so I find the previous numbers to be more informative.

If Orb were reduced to something more like 5% of DPS while still consuming 9-10% of GCD’s, it would not be used. That would put it on par with several other DoTs that have been found to be a DPS loss (Flame Reach, Consuming Trap, Lightning Flood etc.). I don’t think we need more dead skills in this game, Orb is balanced currently, don’t let it end up like Caltrops.

I have a problem with mag warden rotation and orb, basically when i cast deep fissure, sometimes the 3 dots, revenge, wall and orb line up all perfectly, which means i have to either cast 3 abilities and lose a little uptime on deep fissure or, cast 2, and lose uptime on a dot, which is better in your opinion?

Red_Feather · June 2020

I think it gets more punch because it's not much of a threat since it can't be cast at range. If you use it on something like other players, it is like that steamroller scene from austin powers.

universal_wrath · June 2020

iCaliban wrote: »

Why would you want it nerfed? Even if your premise is true, which it isnt. Orb travels. Getting all the ticks on a single target is nearly impossible.

More importantly, why in the world would you want a rather cool looking skill destroyed? Simply buff class dots a bit. These forums. Smh

While the skill is cool looking, the skill is undenaibly strong if not the strongest AOE DOT magicka skill. It has a large radius, ticks every .5 secs instead of every 1 sec, and synrgy for everyone instead of 1 person. The skill in its self is doing a lot of dmg not considering the fact that it does not land full 20 tick on target. In my testing it usualy land between 14-16 tick which out dps most dot, large target have larger hit boxes so it is possible to land all 20 ticks. Also, unlike boneyard and ightning flood which their synrgies can only be activated ones, mystic orb can be activated multple time which again result in trumandus dmg increase. Mystic orb vs blazing spear synrgy, first does dmg and restore resources to 11 members per cast, second deals 0 dmg and only restore resources to 1 person per cast. Mystic orb is either overperforming as a generic skill or other class skills are underperforming, I think both. Either way it is really frasturating.

This was my testing with lightning splash and its morph, I know it is bugged, I even put a theead in both PTS pregreymore realse and in bug reports sections, and there was 0 acknowledgment from devs.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/522632/lightning-splash-is-underperfoming#latest

xaraan · June 2020

These types of threads always interest me b/c one person points out 1 skill out of 8 is over-tuned and should be brought down to equal those others, then everyone chimes in with not to nerf that one skill, but buff the 7 others. As if they easier thing isn't to adjust one over seven. Power creep is already a very big deal, we don't need to keep buffing everything up to equal one thing that is over-tuned. And in the end, nerfing that one down or buffing the other seven accomplishes the same thing in the end, but buffing just constantly pushes power creep even more than every new season of gear will.

That being said, I don't think it needs a huge nerf, but I do agree with OP. It's a little strong and none of the drawbacks pointed out stand up when everyone runs it over class dots still. I'd probably just nerf the overall dot very slightly and then nerf the synergy damage a bit and then a couple of those class dots need buffs but that's because all the class dots are not on the same level. I know lightning splash feels pretty meh lately and after all the other classes have received damage/heal skills I think they should partially revert some of the path changes for NB and allow the damage one to get that small heal again.

JinMori · June 2020

xaraan wrote: »

These types of threads always interest me b/c one person points out 1 skill out of 8 is over-tuned and should be brought down to equal those others, then everyone chimes in with not to nerf that one skill, but buff the 7 others. As if they easier thing isn't to adjust one over seven. Power creep is already a very big deal, we don't need to keep buffing everything up to equal one thing that is over-tuned. And in the end, nerfing that one down or buffing the other seven accomplishes the same thing in the end, but buffing just constantly pushes power creep even more than every new season of gear will.

That being said, I don't think it needs a huge nerf, but I do agree with OP. It's a little strong and none of the drawbacks pointed out stand up when everyone runs it over class dots still. I'd probably just nerf the overall dot very slightly and then nerf the synergy damage a bit and then a couple of those class dots need buffs but that's because all the class dots are not on the same level. I know lightning splash feels pretty meh lately and after all the other classes have received damage/heal skills I think they should partially revert some of the path changes for NB and allow the damage one to get that small heal again.

Or we could look at the actual stats that wrath brought?

Look, i frankly do not care much about power creep, it's about last on my list of problems, i prioritize what is fun and enjoyable over what is balanced, which is why nerfing is the worst way to deal with power creep in my opinion, by far, and also the most lazy.

We can have a fun and balanced game, or we can nerf everything to make the game "balanced" and also boring as ***, because some people, me included can get over 80 k dps, which do you think is better in the long run?

It just takes a little more effort, to make the game more fun and balanced at the same time. I honestly do not think that zos will do it at this point, and frankly, it's take it or leave it at this point, i will play when i want to, but i don't care much if this game goes to ***, they brought it on themselves.

I think that the best way to make the game more interesting is to give classes more interaction with each other, and cooler more dynamic skills, which is why i suggested what i did before in this thread.

There are so many things that they could make better.

Shantu · June 2020

No...Ei...Non...Nee...Nein...Ochi...Loh...Nahin...Nem...Nei...Tidak...Uimh...Nu...Nej...Ni...Dim...Cha...

STOP THE NERF MADNESS!!!

This is why we can't have fun things to play with. While we're at it, let's make every flavor of ice cream vanilla.

If anything, other DOT's should be buffed a bit to make them clearly worth using in a rotation.

Sheesh!!

WrathOfInnos · June 2020

@JinMori On Magden, I’ve found the best rotations are based around the bear cooldown, typically 20-21s or 22s with the Vamp cost increase. As non-Vamp I just do Shalks every 3rd skill or 7 times in 21s, and other DoTs fit into that twice (every 10-11s, shifting around Shalks). The main benefit to Shalks every 3rd skill is that you’ll always be on front bar when they hit.

With Vamp this all changes, because Blood for Blood hits about as hard as Shalks, so doing anywhere from 4-6 Shalks in 22s is just as effective as trying to fit 7. It’s an easier static rotation now too.

I’ve seen other Magdens getting good results with a 12s rotation too, using 4 casts of Shalks and just letting Fetcher, Orb and Wall fall off for 2s. I think 93-94k is possible with that setup.