Antiquities are Everywhere for a Reason

TheRealPotoroo · June 2020

Jaimeh wrote: »

TheRealPotoroo wrote: »

[snip] Two wrongs don't make a right, we know this, but this is yet again about PVE players being forced into PVP areas they are unprepared for and have no hope in when targeted by PVP players that ZOS insist on bullying them into doing in order to achieve a PVE goal.

What PvE goal? The item can be used for any build. ZOS is not bullying you, it's trying to cater to everyone, and if you are unprepared, then that's on you. The very same argument can me made for any reward: if you want a trial gear you have to be prepared to go into a trial, and so on. Newsflash, no one is enjoying running content they don't like and/or aren't good at, that includes stuff from PvP to trials to fishing. It's a good thing some unique things are locked behind all sorts of content, it's very healthy for the game, in fact this should be more the case.

No, it's not, it's on ZOS because they deliberately structured ESO such that it's effectively two incompatible games in one and then refused to give players a viable way to switch between modes. PVE and PVP require different everything, from sets to traits to CP to rotations, everything. And it's so cumbesome and expensive to swap modes nobody does and that's the problem and that problem is 100% because of ZOS's intransigence. It has nothing to do with the players because ZOS refuse to give the players any reasonable way to have a reasonable setup for each mode. So forcing players into modes "they are unprepared for and have no hope in" is not down to them, it's down to ZOS.

Olauron · June 2020

Yes, it is done so players without self-respect will swallow their pride, break their habits and suffer in the content they find not fun. Me? I am taught to ignore such pathetic provocations and do only things that I find fun. And remember, if you don't respect yourself, there is zero reason for a company to respect you.

TineaCruris · June 2020

The reason antiquities are everywhere is because the system is designed to spread players more evenly over all the zones, thus easing server load in the normally packed zones by putting some of those players into normally deserted zones.

So far, nothing available in the antiquities system has any real value except one item, and they are sure to "balance" that item in short order.

Seriously folks. Step back and take a look at what the antiquities system does and how it does it.

The antiquities system is as much a ploy to ease server load than it is anything else. And for those that don't have Greymoor, it's a slap in the face every time they get a lead.

VaranisArano · June 2020

TheRealPotoroo wrote: »

Sephyr wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

Sephyr wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

Sephyr wrote: »

It's amazing how people expect the game to cater to one side this late in the game. Amazing in a bad way. I do PvE, PvP, and a bit of RP and I don't even care that I have to go into the IC or Cyrodiil. If people are so averted by PvP that they instantly balk that literally eight of the leads are 'locked' behind PvP, then they don't need those items very much. Yet the rest of them are all in fact locked through PvE activities aside from the starter greens in each zone. Mara forbid that they actually include PvPers for a change despite the short end of the performance stick they've gotten for ages or the fact that BGers can't queue with just ONE friend.

I think it would have not been as much of a point of annoyance for people if it was "ok so these items are pvp only, even if its a 5 lead mythic" rather then each item having parts all over the place.

but.. as i said.. they want to increase participation metrics, so what better way to do it, than scatter particularly good rewards all over the place. it goes in the opposite direction too, they want their pvp only players to step back into pve that they have otherwise been avoiding.

they have been including pvpers for a while now though. between golden vendor, some very cool rewards, including furniture being pvp specific etc - they do include pvpers. but even as they include them, it was still fairly contained until this point. but they don't want people staying in their lanes.

So out of 282 leads, having 8 of those leads locked behind PvP itheyt "too much". LOL!

did you miss the point on purpose or did I explain badly again?

at least one of those leads is part of a desirable item that also required various pve leads. that's what can make it so frustrating - for both sides. cause there you are with an item that's partly complete, but to complete it you are going to have to do something particularly unenjoyable. and haven't you wondered WHY did they hide that lead specificaly... not in Cyrodil. not in battlegrounds. in IC? in case I'm being too subtle - its because people don't like IC so even after being made free for all players, players STILL don't like going there. so there's your motivating factor. a shiny new ring.

they did it to pve only leads as well, spreading them across variety of activities, that tend to be in different lanes for different pve people.

me? I have accepted that there are some leads i'm simply not getting because i'm too old and too tired to be cajoled into spending my game time on activities i do not find fun. but.. i still understand that instead of resignation i'm feeling, other people are feeling frustration.

Okay so a few things here; I won't be 'cajoled' into empathizing with people who don't want to run the content. Do you want to know how many months I had to run vDSA before they added transmutation to get the drop I needed for my 'PvP' build back in the day? Longer than months. Same with vMA. Before transmutation do you want to know how many drops I had to vendor trash that had the wrong trait? Spoiler alert, I was in there for over a year and two months. I finally stopped and waited until they released Clockwork City. So don't give me the whole "the content isn't fun". Running vMA sometimes seven times a day on my days off made Orsinium an abject failure in my eyes. Oh, and let's not forget about the abysmal drop rates of some of the overland gear pieces where you have to spend an arm and a leg at a guild store from some PvEer who doesn't even know why it's expensive and coveted.

So you'll have to forgive me if I'm pressing F on the world's smallest keyboard to those who don't want to run through it to get the shiny.

[snip] Two wrongs don't make a right, we know this, but this is yet again about PVE players being forced into PVP areas they are unprepared for and have no hope in when targeted by PVP players that ZOS insist on bullying them into doing in order to achieve a PVE goal.

You know what we call an unprepared PVEer?

A new PVPer.

Seriously, its not like you queue into a PVP zone by accident. Prepare as best you can and give yourself the grace of remembering that you are brand new to a type of content that has a steep learning curve.

At least, that worked for me when I went into Cyrodiil for my Master Angler fish.

JusticeSouldier · June 2020

Iccotak wrote: »

Did it not occur to anyone that the reason they are in PVP or the Dungeons is to encourage players to try out and experience what else the game has to offer?

People are complaining about not getting leads immediately because they want all the items this week

The Antiquities system is something that was added which contributes to the long term of the game.
Which is why there are leads everywhere.

If you could get all the leads immediately and without having to leave your bubble then it wouldn’t do what it was intended to do.
1. Give something new to do for long time players. A reason to explore completed content
2. Push players to do things they haven’t tried.

You may not like PvP having leads but I’m sure there are various PvP players who appreciate it. After all many PvP players don’t enjoy going through PvE content but have to to get what they want/need.

Expecting the game to 100% cater to one play style is selfish as it doesn’t consider other people who play the game.

Of course people are hating the grind if all they’re doing is farming leads and trying to get them as fast as possible.
It’s supposed to be something you do as you play - like crafting.

if they care of us, the could make a difference between combat related things and cosmetic, to make first one less idk how to say, forcing to farm them like.
imho, i don't want even touch this scrying/excavating/diggin system.
tired and bored of things main goal of which is addiction, but not enjoy and brainwork.

and , I'm absolutly against attitude to players, released in this patch with arena weapons...
I don't trust Zenimax and Bethesda or maybe better word will be Zenithesda as a company which decided to break fair communication with most loyal it's customers and to delete their time and efforts because of desicion made at basis or short-sighted marketing or cognitive deformation.
@ZOS_GinaBruno please, read, hear us. current chosen way is dead end

ZOS_ConnorG · June 2020

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Sylvermynx · June 2020

TineaCruris wrote: »

The antiquities system is as much a ploy to ease server load than it is anything else. And for those that don't have Greymoor, it's a slap in the face every time they get a lead.

I don't consider leads a "slap in the face". I'd be annoyed if leads took up inventory space, but they don't. I do think it would be nice if I could give the ones I find to my friend who really does want to "catch 'em all".

Starlock · June 2020

Sylvermynx wrote: »

TineaCruris wrote: »

The antiquities system is as much a ploy to ease server load than it is anything else. And for those that don't have Greymoor, it's a slap in the face every time they get a lead.

I don't consider leads a "slap in the face". I'd be annoyed if leads took up inventory space, but they don't. I do think it would be nice if I could give the ones I find to my friend who really does want to "catch 'em all".

It is very strange that leads are not tradable. There's no logical reason for them not to be. Granted, I think it was a good design decision to not make the leads tradable, though going that route does mean that the location of lead drops needed to be considered carefully. To some extent they did that, but they implemented a few choices in where leads drop that is really questionable from a customer perspective.

By far the most notable example of this is that some of the mythic items straight up require the customer to make an additional purchase to get all the leads for it. That's not okay and "additional purchases necessary to complete your antiquities" should have been very explicitly mentioned in their advertising material. Compared to that, some leads dropping only in PvP is a minuscule issue.

bluebird · June 2020

That 'reason' is purely from a company standpoint, so you can't expect players to find it player-friendly.

Of course we understand, cognitively, that ZOS may have a very good reason in doing these things.

Why lock Mythic fragments behind additional DLC purchases - to drive up sales of course!

Why have Leads dropping for people who don't even own Greymoor - to give them a carrot on a stick that will entice them to buy the Chapter!

Why make the leads come from low-drop-rate RNG sources - to increase playtime metrics!

Why have all sorts of things drop from all sorts of unrelated activities - to incentivise players to play dead zones and gamemodes they aren't interested in at all!

But do you expect players to applaud a profit-oriented company's decisions that are based on bloating up their statistics rather than what makes sense ingame and what would be most rational and player-friedly? Of course players will be frustrated with a system that puts driving up metrics above player enjoyment. Of course there will be tons of complaints.

Antiquities and Mythic items are an advertised feature of Greymoor (the only new feature of Greymoor, no new class, no new skill lines, no new crafting profession), and yet some Mythic items and tons of other Antiquities require further DLC purchases. When they released Jewelcrafting and Psijic Guild, it required only Summerset and the base game. And world overhauls such as the Justice system were free base game updates. Should we be surprised if players don't applaud this decision to DLC-lock items that come from a paid Chapter in the first place? Of course not.

And then regarding the gating of various items behind various playstyles. The new Siege Engine for Cyrodiil is locked behind Antiquities (instead of a base game update for Cyrodiil), and the Lead for it drops from PvP not from housing. But furniture Leads need to drop from low-RNG random BG bags and Cyro, and none from housing? Where are the PvE sets or PvP Siege engines that drop from Housing? Nowhere. There aren't even furniture that come from Housing. So it gets really tiresome that this 'let's make players try new game modes' only goes one way.

Furthermore, every time a PvEer or Housing fan complains about items locked behind PvP (which is far more tedious and stressful to do for PvE and Housing fans than the reverse PvE or Housing would be for PvPers), PvPers flood them with 'Well we have to grind all the time for monster heads too' as if that justified it.

It does the opposite, it proves that PvPers also hate having to grind other game modes for their items. Insisting on gating unrelated items behind PvP means only to have others suffer through arbitrary grinds because you had to, instead of addressing the issue in the first place and re-examining and challenging the system to change.

tl;dr: Just because something makes sense for a company to do, does not mean that players will find it acceptable, and they should be expected and accepted to complain about it when it results in non-player-friendly bloated systems.

Magdalina · June 2020

Ayyyye. I actually really like how they did antiquities. It's kinda cool you can get leads from doing literally anything. As someone who hasn't PvP'd for 3 years, has never really fished and tries to RP a goodie-goodie never-stealing character (uhhhh... almost never >.> <.<), I absolutely approve of it.
Also - yes, they do have a goal of selling all the parts of the game to you, but honestly, I LIKE how there're new things to do in old zones, I like how they're all alive. I also think they did a rather light job at 'gating' - the dungeon leads drop in the easiest dungeons in the game, and in their normal versions too, the 'PvP' leads do not require you to actually PvP, there're no leads locked behind trials (afaik at least), no leads locked behind murdering NPCs, and overall droprates seem pretty high - I mean, RNG is RNG, but seems if you set your mind to it, you normally really won't have to grind for weeks or anything, it's all within reach.

I see people complaining about leads being locked behind dungeons, people complaining about leads being locked behind PvP, people complaining about leads being locked behind fishing, people complaining about leads being locked behind WB, people complaining about leads being locked behind stealing...c'mon guys, is there ANYWHERE ZOS could put them that would make everyone happy? Just mail every single player every single lead, would that do it?

It's a game, it's meant to be played. Games have rewards, that's how they incentivize people to play. This is the very idea - people do certain content to get certain rewards. If you don't do certain content, you don't get certain rewards, it's simple as that. And since it all ultimately is for fun, the real question in the end of the day is whether the fun of obtaining the reward is worth doing the content for you. If it isn't, then you just don't do it, it's simple as that, no one is forcing you.

Tl;dr - antiquities are awesome, give us moar stuff like that!

Olauron · June 2020

Magdalina wrote: »

c'mon guys, is there ANYWHERE ZOS could put them that would make everyone happy? Just mail every single player every single lead, would that do it?

1. They can make leads tradable.
2. They can make leads sold by mechants for special currency, dropped from all lead sources.
3. They can make a lead luxury merchant like Golden.
4. They can make leads dropping from all sources (fishing, crafting, bosses, rewards).

SolidusPrime · June 2020

Olauron wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

c'mon guys, is there ANYWHERE ZOS could put them that would make everyone happy? Just mail every single player every single lead, would that do it?

1. They can make leads tradable.
2. They can make leads sold by mechants for special currency, dropped from all lead sources.
3. They can make a lead luxury merchant like Golden.
4. They can make leads dropping from all sources (fishing, crafting, bosses, rewards).

I actually really like the idea of being able to buy them from certain merchants. Bartenders would be good for that.

bluebird · June 2020

Olauron wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

c'mon guys, is there ANYWHERE ZOS could put them that would make everyone happy? Just mail every single player every single lead, would that do it?

1. They can make leads tradable.
2. They can make leads sold by mechants for special currency, dropped from all lead sources.
3. They can make a lead luxury merchant like Golden.
4. They can make leads dropping from all sources (fishing, crafting, bosses, rewards).

Those are actually a great ideas. Fully support that.

Sephyr · June 2020

Magdalina wrote: »

Ayyyye. I actually really like how they did antiquities. It's kinda cool you can get leads from doing literally anything. As someone who hasn't PvP'd for 3 years, has never really fished and tries to RP a goodie-goodie never-stealing character (uhhhh... almost never >.> <.<), I absolutely approve of it.
Also - yes, they do have a goal of selling all the parts of the game to you, but honestly, I LIKE how there're new things to do in old zones, I like how they're all alive. I also think they did a rather light job at 'gating' - the dungeon leads drop in the easiest dungeons in the game, and in their normal versions too, the 'PvP' leads do not require you to actually PvP, there're no leads locked behind trials (afaik at least), no leads locked behind murdering NPCs, and overall droprates seem pretty high - I mean, RNG is RNG, but seems if you set your mind to it, you normally really won't have to grind for weeks or anything, it's all within reach.

I see people complaining about leads being locked behind dungeons, people complaining about leads being locked behind PvP, people complaining about leads being locked behind fishing, people complaining about leads being locked behind WB, people complaining about leads being locked behind stealing...c'mon guys, is there ANYWHERE ZOS could put them that would make everyone happy? Just mail every single player every single lead, would that do it?

It's a game, it's meant to be played. Games have rewards, that's how they incentivize people to play. This is the very idea - people do certain content to get certain rewards. If you don't do certain content, you don't get certain rewards, it's simple as that. And since it all ultimately is for fun, the real question in the end of the day is whether the fun of obtaining the reward is worth doing the content for you. If it isn't, then you just don't do it, it's simple as that, no one is forcing you.

Tl;dr - antiquities are awesome, give us moar stuff like that!

There is in fact one that's locked behind the base game trials and another that is found from trash mobs from the new one as well from a bear monster in Blackreach.

Altar of Celestial Convergence which is from final bosses of Craglorn trials. (Trial exclusive)
Font of Auri-El which is from trash mobs in Kyne's Aegis as well as that bear monster mentioned from above in Blackreach. (non-Trial exclusive)

Aside from that though, I definitely agree and appreciate that using antiquities to revive older content is nice. It's been a while since I've actually visited some of these areas outside of events. It's something I'm rather surprised that was done in a way that I'm alright with compared to what else was delivered in the patch.

Magdalina · June 2020

Olauron wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

c'mon guys, is there ANYWHERE ZOS could put them that would make everyone happy? Just mail every single player every single lead, would that do it?

1. They can make leads tradable.
2. They can make leads sold by mechants for special currency, dropped from all lead sources.
3. They can make a lead luxury merchant like Golden.
4. They can make leads dropping from all sources (fishing, crafting, bosses, rewards).

This is a fair opinion, but one I personally disagree with.
1)Ultimately it's up to ZOS to decide, but imho it is one of the biggest strengths of the system that this stuff is BoP and not trade-able/sell-able. Getting gold is relatively easy in this game, there're a LOT of people with millions of gold, all sellable antiquities would mean is that they'd buy all of them on day 1 and be done with it. This way, we all have relatively equal chances and we all actually have to play the game.

4)Leads already do drop from all sources including resource nodes, so I'm not sure what you mean there. Unless you want ALL leads to drop from ALL sources, but this would mean that the droprates for a specific lead would be absolutely abysmal.

2&3 are relatively middle ground, I suppose like with other things it might actually be something ZOS will do in a year or so, once the novelty wears off. But then again, given high-ish droprates, maybe they won't.

Olauron · June 2020

Magdalina wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

c'mon guys, is there ANYWHERE ZOS could put them that would make everyone happy? Just mail every single player every single lead, would that do it?

1. They can make leads tradable.
2. They can make leads sold by mechants for special currency, dropped from all lead sources.
3. They can make a lead luxury merchant like Golden.
4. They can make leads dropping from all sources (fishing, crafting, bosses, rewards).

This is a fair opinion, but one I personally disagree with.
1)Ultimately it's up to ZOS to decide, but imho it is one of the biggest strengths of the system that this stuff is BoP and not trade-able/sell-able. Getting gold is relatively easy in this game, there're a LOT of people with millions of gold, all sellable antiquities would mean is that they'd buy all of them on day 1 and be done with it. This way, we all have relatively equal chances and we all actually have to play the game.

4)Leads already do drop from all sources including resource nodes, so I'm not sure what you mean there. Unless you want ALL leads to drop from ALL sources, but this would mean that the droprates for a specific lead would be absolutely abysmal.

2&3 are relatively middle ground, I suppose like with other things it might actually be something ZOS will do in a year or so, once the novelty wears off. But then again, given high-ish droprates, maybe they won't.

1. No, you will not buy them on day 1, because somebody needs to get this lead on the day 1. How many people are actually buying the whole DLC dungeon motif on day 1 (from guild store)?

4. Yes, all leads from all sources. You can still make these sources quite unique (for example, why are we getting Font of Auri-El just from mobs? why not from fishing in Western Skyrim (or Blackreach, if there are fishing pools)? why are we getting Branch of Falinesti only from resources? why not from public dungeon bosses of the same zone?). The same for pvp sources. There are, if I remember correctly, 10 quests for each town. So there are at least 10 different sources. Then there are some scouting and other daily quests, these are more sources. Then there are rewards of the worthy, that is another source. Now distribute all leads across all those pvp sources and you will get rather good drop rate and also knowledge, what should you do to get that lead from pvp.

bluebird · June 2020

Magdalina wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

c'mon guys, is there ANYWHERE ZOS could put them that would make everyone happy? Just mail every single player every single lead, would that do it?

1. They can make leads tradable.
2. They can make leads sold by mechants for special currency, dropped from all lead sources.
3. They can make a lead luxury merchant like Golden.
4. They can make leads dropping from all sources (fishing, crafting, bosses, rewards).

4)Leads already do drop from all sources including resource nodes, so I'm not sure what you mean there. Unless you want ALL leads to drop from ALL sources, but this would mean that the droprates for a specific lead would be absolutely abysmal.

Not at all. Some Leads already come from several sources. Those are fine. Like the Knight's Sarcophagus from Stormhaven - it can only come from Stormhaven, but it can come from Treasure chests, Thieves Troves, Public Dungeon bosses, ore nodes, random Daedra spawns, dolmens.

Meanwhile other Leads only drop from one thing and one thing only, like Fishing spots on Arteum. Arteum is one of the smallest zones (and will suffer from overcrowding far more, even if Alcast hadn't recommended it in his leveling guide), has a relatively small shoreline (the Mythic glove Lead could have come from Summerset or Auridon fishing spots which are far more numerous), and fishing spots unlike bosses are competitive (as in, other players actively reduce your opportunity to get it). Same with Lockboxes in Bal Foyen, one of the smallest zones ingame. And the Lead from BG bags which are awarded for victories and personal AP gains, not just tagging a WB or killing any random mob in a zone.

So it's not that everything should drop from everywhere, but that within the already specific locations the Leads should have more than one way of getting them. PvPers can get them from PvP and dungeon delvers can get them from dungeons. Etc.

mav1234 · June 2020

If Mythic leads had not been in every zone, or at least many DLC zones too, it would have felt like the system was poorly integrated. And for people with ESO+, having us find leads in all the various zones is fun. I like that content I am doing anyway drops leads. Sometimes, those leads encourage me to then do things I wouldn't normally do. I think that is a success of the system.

I would only ask that there be ways to guarantee a higher drop on leads, e.g. something like killing players in IC would give you a higher shot at the lead than farming bosses, but both have a chance; and doing dungeons on vet, and with the harmode active, gives you a higher chance at leads.

Thechuckage · June 2020

Starlock wrote: »

Sylvermynx wrote: »

TineaCruris wrote: »

The antiquities system is as much a ploy to ease server load than it is anything else. And for those that don't have Greymoor, it's a slap in the face every time they get a lead.

I don't consider leads a "slap in the face". I'd be annoyed if leads took up inventory space, but they don't. I do think it would be nice if I could give the ones I find to my friend who really does want to "catch 'em all".

It is very strange that leads are not tradable. There's no logical reason for them not to be. Granted, I think it was a good design decision to not make the leads tradable, though going that route does mean that the location of lead drops needed to be considered carefully. To some extent they did that, but they implemented a few choices in where leads drop that is really questionable from a customer perspective.

By far the most notable example of this is that some of the mythic items straight up require the customer to make an additional purchase to get all the leads for it. That's not okay and "additional purchases necessary to complete your antiquities" should have been very explicitly mentioned in their advertising material. Compared to that, some leads dropping only in PvP is a minuscule issue.

There is a logical reason for them to be non-tradeable. So you buy greymoor, full stop. Every time that message pops up with the new lead you discovered, pings away at that part of the brain thats saying "Oh complete that" Its a underhanded and somewhat disgusting form of advertising.

This has been done, along with putting the fragments in DLC zones (as others have said) purely to make more money. I have no issue with a company making money, just how it goes about doing it. Some make reliable great products. Others make slipshod, quick to break junk. Being that its more cost effective to entice players to buy more, rather than fix long standing bugs then its really a no brainer.

bluebird · June 2020

mav1234 wrote: »

If Mythic leads had not been in every zone, or at least many DLC zones too, it would have felt like the system was poorly integrated. And for people with ESO+, having us find leads in all the various zones is fun. I like that content I am doing anyway drops leads. Sometimes, those leads encourage me to then do things I wouldn't normally do. I think that is a success of the system.

Poorly integrated? Why should a system from a paid Chapter be integrated into other DLCs? The Psijic Guild skill line from Summerset wasn't integrated into Orsinium, and still managed to make us visit tons of base game zones. The Necromancer class from Elsweyr wasn't integrated into Murkmire.

Antiquities isn't a base game update. If it was (like the Justice system updates, or Housing) then sure, we could talk about how it should be integrated into all zones including DLC zones.

Also, it's one thing to enjoy things, and another whether those things are actually good. Housing was an added system to the game that didn't have anything locked behind it, and people do it and enjoy it because the system itself is fun. So you saying that you enjoy exclusive gated drops pushing you to do content that you wouldn't actually do because the content itself is pointless and uninteresting doesn't make the system good, it just gives another company shortcut reason for designing it that way (instead of making content that people want to do).

Olauron · June 2020

Thechuckage wrote: »

Starlock wrote: »

Sylvermynx wrote: »

TineaCruris wrote: »

The antiquities system is as much a ploy to ease server load than it is anything else. And for those that don't have Greymoor, it's a slap in the face every time they get a lead.

I don't consider leads a "slap in the face". I'd be annoyed if leads took up inventory space, but they don't. I do think it would be nice if I could give the ones I find to my friend who really does want to "catch 'em all".

It is very strange that leads are not tradable. There's no logical reason for them not to be. Granted, I think it was a good design decision to not make the leads tradable, though going that route does mean that the location of lead drops needed to be considered carefully. To some extent they did that, but they implemented a few choices in where leads drop that is really questionable from a customer perspective.

By far the most notable example of this is that some of the mythic items straight up require the customer to make an additional purchase to get all the leads for it. That's not okay and "additional purchases necessary to complete your antiquities" should have been very explicitly mentioned in their advertising material. Compared to that, some leads dropping only in PvP is a minuscule issue.

There is a logical reason for them to be non-tradeable. So you buy greymoor, full stop. Every time that message pops up with the new lead you discovered, pings away at that part of the brain thats saying "Oh complete that" Its a underhanded and somewhat disgusting form of advertising.

This has been done, along with putting the fragments in DLC zones (as others have said) purely to make more money. I have no issue with a company making money, just how it goes about doing it. Some make reliable great products. Others make slipshod, quick to break junk. Being that its more cost effective to entice players to buy more, rather than fix long standing bugs then its really a no brainer.

It is extremely easy to check whether seller has bought new chapter or not and either allow or forbid selling the lead. Since you need Greymoor to scry and dig, it will also make buying leads without this chapter pointless.

mav1234 · June 2020

bluebird wrote: »

Poorly integrated? Why should a system from a paid Chapter be integrated into other DLCs? The Psijic Guild skill line from Summerset wasn't integrated into Orsinium, and still managed to make us visit tons of base game zones. The Necromancer class from Elsweyr wasn't integrated into Murkmire.

Necromancer surely was integrated into Murkmire insofar as one would expect it to be. Go summon your undead minions there :P But in all seriousness, we've not had something like antiquities since Housing. And yes, they didn't charge for that, true. But the MMORPG model has always been that expansions have new features people have to pay for. Given the way progression works in ESO, it makes sense it would encourage you to go into DLC zones.

bluebird wrote: »

Antiquities isn't a base game update. If it was (like the Justice system updates, or Housing) then sure, we could talk about how it should be integrated into all zones including DLC zones.

Antiquities is a new core system that they intend to continue to expand. That it costs money, unlike housing, to unlock does not change that fact. Is it "lame" that they are charging you for a new core system? I am used to that from MMORPGs - expansions are usually essential to me. I can see that as frustrating to someone that does not want to pay for the expansion, but ESO is going in the direction of other MMOs anyway it seems, what with a dumbing down of combat and making it significantly easier for everyone to access everything.

bluebird wrote: »

Also, it's one thing to enjoy things, and another whether those things are actually good. Housing was an added system to the game that didn't have anything locked behind it, and people do it and enjoy it because the system itself is fun. So you saying that you enjoy exclusive gated drops pushing you to do content that you wouldn't actually do because the content itself is pointless and uninteresting doesn't make the system good, it just gives another company shortcut reason for designing it that way (instead of making content that people want to do).

Plenty of people do enjoy the system, and do find it fun. I don't consider any of the things I've done in Antiquities excessively gated at all - but I haven't tried for the mount and don't intend to. I don't consider any of it even essential - I still don't use any of the mythics in PvE and I only have a couple pvp builds so far leveraging them.

As to the comment RE: old content, sure, it is boring - but if I cam going to level a new charcter through dungeons anyway, it is pretty cool to get leads my max levels can use.

bluebird · June 2020

mav1234 wrote: »

bluebird wrote: »

Also, it's one thing to enjoy things, and another whether those things are actually good. Housing was an added system to the game that didn't have anything locked behind it, and people do it and enjoy it because the system itself is fun. So you saying that you enjoy exclusive gated drops pushing you to do content that you wouldn't actually do because the content itself is pointless and uninteresting doesn't make the system good, it just gives another company shortcut reason for designing it that way (instead of making content that people want to do).

Plenty of people do enjoy the system, and do find it fun. I don't consider any of the things I've done in Antiquities excessively gated at all - but I haven't tried for the mount and don't intend to. I don't consider any of it even essential - I still don't use any of the mythics in PvE and I only have a couple pvp builds so far leveraging them.

As to the comment RE: old content, sure, it is boring - but if I cam going to level a new charcter through dungeons anyway, it is pretty cool to get leads my max levels can use.

If people enjoy the system (Antiquities) - and why shouldn't they, a lot of people play mobile games like Candy Crush too - they wouldn't need or want the rewards to be DLC-locked and the lead drops to be gated and grindy. If their enjoyment depends on these gated/locked rewards, then they don't enjoy the system for itself.

If you haven't grinded Chests in starter zones, haven't grinded WBs in Coldharbour and other dead zones before Antiquities, you don't enjoy the activity itself, you enjoy the rewards. That's the point. It's a company carrot to make people play aspects of the game they otherwise wouldn't because they're not fun. Other systems like Housing need no carrot, but are their own reward because the system itself is fun. I'm sure some players would have played Scrying and Excavation for the fun of it alone, even without the Mythics and Furniture.

But I haven't heard any person complain about the Snow Treader Mythic item NOT requiring a DLC zone and how that ruins the game and takes the fun out of the system for them.

Clearly base game zones would have been enough to revitalize old zones and give players something to do if they are so reliant on carrots to keep playing the game.

And yes, 'MMOs do this' but that doesn't make it okay. That's why people are right to complain, instead of pretending that it's a player-friendly solution and they are all happy with it.

Thechuckage · June 2020

Olauron wrote: »

It is extremely easy to check whether seller has bought new chapter or not and either allow or forbid selling the lead. Since you need Greymoor to scry and dig, it will also make buying leads without this chapter pointless.

-snipped for brevity-

But (the all important but) that would take the possible sale off the table. And even if someone had gremoor but not say morrowind, well if they have to dig anything up in there bust out that wallet!

Also take into account that the game couldn't differentiate between people who bought greymoor and who hadn't for a number of days. Highly likely the same type of issue would appear for selling leads.

xaraan · June 2020

Linaleah wrote: »

"encourage to try out" is a very charitable way of saying "cajole and push people into activities that they don't otherwise enjoy to improve participation metrics"

^ This.
They've made it quite obvious in various interviews with several different devs that they are overly concerned with charts and metrics. They care more about forcing people into particular content to satisfy metrics than satisfying customers.

Best way to do it would have been to have leads drop from multiple sources so players that do pvp and pve only can earn them, even if you give it a higher drop rate in one over the other. Forcing people to play parts of a game that they hate does not 'get them out of their comfort zone' but only annoys them and makes them not have fun with something they are doing to have fun with. I've been mostly fortunate being a player into pvp, pve, trials, etc. so it's never been a big issue personally, (And even if you are into pvp, earning some of these things doesn't trigger exciting gameplay, but dealing with zergs and trolling unless you are on the side of the zerg) but I can see why it would bother some players.

I will say it's not a unique issue of making pve'rs pvp though, players often need to do rando things they wouldn't normally, like fishing, pve for pvpers, pvp for pvers, trials, etc. to earn various things in the game. I don't see a problem with this on a smaller scale, but I do think for some things like the antiquities they could have offered multiple options for all players, especially when you consider how specific pvp activities can be: do IC for antiquities drop, do BGs for outfit pages that can't be bought on traders even though every motif and outfit style that drops in PVE can be, etc. And at least if you are a pvper going to pve, you don't have other pver's gang up and kill you to stop your farming progress at a world boss or dungeon.

Dusk_Coven · June 2020

bluebird wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

c'mon guys, is there ANYWHERE ZOS could put them that would make everyone happy? Just mail every single player every single lead, would that do it?

1. They can make leads tradable.
2. They can make leads sold by mechants for special currency, dropped from all lead sources.
3. They can make a lead luxury merchant like Golden.
4. They can make leads dropping from all sources (fishing, crafting, bosses, rewards).

Those are actually a great ideas. Fully support that.

Those are some of the worst ideas for Antiquities, especially making it tradeable. Some areas would be overfarmed or even bot-farmed and choked with players just wanting to make gold selling leads. That would ruin the location for people actually trying to play the game or getting leads themselves.

The Golden already deprecated monster sets making earning them in vet dungeons and earning Undaunted Keys all but worthless. It's easier to just shop at the Golden. Selling too many leads undermines the very experience of Antiquities -- the excitement of finding a lead and then going out to do it.

Olauron · June 2020

Thechuckage wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

It is extremely easy to check whether seller has bought new chapter or not and either allow or forbid selling the lead. Since you need Greymoor to scry and dig, it will also make buying leads without this chapter pointless.

-snipped for brevity-

But (the all important but) that would take the possible sale off the table. And even if someone had gremoor but not say morrowind, well if they have to dig anything up in there bust out that wallet!

Also take into account that the game couldn't differentiate between people who bought greymoor and who hadn't for a number of days. Highly likely the same type of issue would appear for selling leads.

Well, yes. Antiquities are made to a) sell Greymoor; b) sell all other DLCs with dig sites. With any suggestion we should keep that in mind. Sometimes it is possible to argue with design, but it is always impossible to argue with marketing.

As for your second concern, no, no and no, because selling check would be and should be the same check that is already used for porting to a Greymoor wayshrine. That would be the same function returning the same result. The problem with Greymoor access was not with the wayshrine checks or travel to player checks. The problem was with actual ownership, overridden with 'it is PTS' check.

Olauron · June 2020

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

The Golden already deprecated monster sets making earning them in vet dungeons and earning Undaunted Keys all but worthless. It's easier to just shop at the Golden. Selling too many leads undermines the very experience of Antiquities -- the excitement of finding a lead and then going out to do it.

[sarcasm]
Yes, it is very exciting to get unwanted lead, dig an item and destroy it, because it is completely useless, you can't sell lead and you can't sell item, this item clutters the inventory (or warehouse) and the lead left untouched may (there is zero data) prevent getting other wanted leads.
[/sarcasm]
But I find it not exciting at all. Try farming 24 Ysgramor Chalices for your dining room and then tell me how good is system with non-tradable leads.

Starlock · June 2020

xaraan wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

"encourage to try out" is a very charitable way of saying "cajole and push people into activities that they don't otherwise enjoy to improve participation metrics"

^ This.
They've made it quite obvious in various interviews with several different devs that they are overly concerned with charts and metrics. They care more about forcing people into particular content to satisfy metrics than satisfying customers.

Are there some good sources to watch these interviews at? I very rarely am able to (or want to) watch their streams because I'm just not into that sort of thing, but insight into the development processes at various studios can be fun.

Linaleah · June 2020

Olauron wrote: »

Thechuckage wrote: »

Starlock wrote: »

Sylvermynx wrote: »

TineaCruris wrote: »

The antiquities system is as much a ploy to ease server load than it is anything else. And for those that don't have Greymoor, it's a slap in the face every time they get a lead.

I don't consider leads a "slap in the face". I'd be annoyed if leads took up inventory space, but they don't. I do think it would be nice if I could give the ones I find to my friend who really does want to "catch 'em all".

It is very strange that leads are not tradable. There's no logical reason for them not to be. Granted, I think it was a good design decision to not make the leads tradable, though going that route does mean that the location of lead drops needed to be considered carefully. To some extent they did that, but they implemented a few choices in where leads drop that is really questionable from a customer perspective.

By far the most notable example of this is that some of the mythic items straight up require the customer to make an additional purchase to get all the leads for it. That's not okay and "additional purchases necessary to complete your antiquities" should have been very explicitly mentioned in their advertising material. Compared to that, some leads dropping only in PvP is a minuscule issue.

There is a logical reason for them to be non-tradeable. So you buy greymoor, full stop. Every time that message pops up with the new lead you discovered, pings away at that part of the brain thats saying "Oh complete that" Its a underhanded and somewhat disgusting form of advertising.

This has been done, along with putting the fragments in DLC zones (as others have said) purely to make more money. I have no issue with a company making money, just how it goes about doing it. Some make reliable great products. Others make slipshod, quick to break junk. Being that its more cost effective to entice players to buy more, rather than fix long standing bugs then its really a no brainer.

It is extremely easy to check whether seller has bought new chapter or not and either allow or forbid selling the lead. Since you need Greymoor to scry and dig, it will also make buying leads without this chapter pointless.

I'm not sure you should be forbidden to sell leads. just have a message "requires Greymoor to use" you know since poeple who didn't have summerset could still farm jewelry for deconstruction and JC nodes for materials to sell.