Maintenance for the week of January 5:
• PC/Mac: No maintenance – January 5
• NA megaservers for maintenance – January 7, 4:00AM EST (9:00 UTC) - 10:00AM EST (15:00 UTC)
• EU megaservers for maintenance – January 7, 4:00AM EST (9:00 UTC) - 10:00AM EST (15:00 UTC)
• PC/Mac: No maintenance – January 5
• NA megaservers for maintenance – January 7, 4:00AM EST (9:00 UTC) - 10:00AM EST (15:00 UTC)
• EU megaservers for maintenance – January 7, 4:00AM EST (9:00 UTC) - 10:00AM EST (15:00 UTC)
Vampire is ridiculous
-
John_Falstaff✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭John_Falstaff wrote: »MrBrownstone wrote: »What was the point of this whole vampire rework? I thought it was to make being a vampire more important of a choice instead of BiS in PvE due to 10% recovery.
But it only got worse since it increases sustain by much more thanks to health cost spammable AND also increases damage since the spammable is superior.
I never played as vampire since I can sustain without that recovery bonus and still do the highest possible damage I can do but now I'm forced to become a vampire unless I want to gimp my damage.
Since it requires you to get into melee range and costs health, it would have to do more damage. Otherwise it would be useless and no one would use it.
Again, 'ranged magicka' is often a misnomer - yes, during some part of rotation mag players can stay at range (as can bow/bow stamina players), but in essence, most magicka is still melee, you have Zaan, you have your Incap, sweeps, you have all magDK arsenal... so, being fully ranged (without gimping own damage) has never been a thing and as a mag player you have to stay melee if you want to do your best. Vamp spammable doesn't change much in that regard. As for health, overhealing is really strong in a lot of content. Sure you probably won't run Blood for Blood in vHoF HM execute, but I can think of a lot of places where a moderate DoT running on you (and that's what your spammable is) makes no difference whatsoever.
I disagree that "ranged magicka" is often a misnomer and has never been a thing. It's a nice advantage to have. Having to get up close to your opponent puts you at more risk and is often more difficult to pull off, especially against highly mobile opponents.
So I would say that range is definitely an advantage.
As to your your other points, they seem centered around situations where the player in question is being gratuitously healed by other players and/or in situations where range is of no consequence. So of course it's not going to make a difference in situations like that.
I'm talking mostly group PvE gameplay. I don't mind PvP players having risky but lucrative choice, but in PvE, that argument doesn't really stand, where you wanted highest damage, you had to be up close on magicka anyway, now you'll just have to be up close more of the time (which, yes, may not be appropriate for things like vAS, but that's a particular case). So basically whole PvE is affected by the risk of new icky meta.2 -
Tapio75✭✭✭✭✭
✭Only thing i really hate about new vampire is to be forced to be a bloodscion if you want to use the ultimate. All i want is batswarm.
This has nothing to do with damage or anything like that but purely a roleplaying issue really. I dont want to be a epic vampire lord or whatnot. I just want to be a normal vampire with some control over bats.
I think everyone who cares more about stats and stuff is just limiting their gameplay options by wanting to have always the best because best is not needed in this or many other games at all.Edited by Tapio75 on May 26, 2020 3:50PM>>PC-EU Mostly PVE. Played since BETA<<5 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭John_Falstaff wrote: »John_Falstaff wrote: »MrBrownstone wrote: »What was the point of this whole vampire rework? I thought it was to make being a vampire more important of a choice instead of BiS in PvE due to 10% recovery.
But it only got worse since it increases sustain by much more thanks to health cost spammable AND also increases damage since the spammable is superior.
I never played as vampire since I can sustain without that recovery bonus and still do the highest possible damage I can do but now I'm forced to become a vampire unless I want to gimp my damage.
Since it requires you to get into melee range and costs health, it would have to do more damage. Otherwise it would be useless and no one would use it.
Again, 'ranged magicka' is often a misnomer - yes, during some part of rotation mag players can stay at range (as can bow/bow stamina players), but in essence, most magicka is still melee, you have Zaan, you have your Incap, sweeps, you have all magDK arsenal... so, being fully ranged (without gimping own damage) has never been a thing and as a mag player you have to stay melee if you want to do your best. Vamp spammable doesn't change much in that regard. As for health, overhealing is really strong in a lot of content. Sure you probably won't run Blood for Blood in vHoF HM execute, but I can think of a lot of places where a moderate DoT running on you (and that's what your spammable is) makes no difference whatsoever.
I disagree that "ranged magicka" is often a misnomer and has never been a thing. It's a nice advantage to have. Having to get up close to your opponent puts you at more risk and is often more difficult to pull off, especially against highly mobile opponents.
So I would say that range is definitely an advantage.
As to your your other points, they seem centered around situations where the player in question is being gratuitously healed by other players and/or in situations where range is of no consequence. So of course it's not going to make a difference in situations like that.
I'm talking mostly group PvE gameplay. I don't mind PvP players having risky but lucrative choice, but in PvE, that argument doesn't really stand, where you wanted highest damage, you had to be up close on magicka anyway, now you'll just have to be up close more of the time (which, yes, may not be appropriate for things like vAS, but that's a particular case). So basically whole PvE is affected by the risk of new icky meta.
Vampires are probably going to be able to top the "DPS charts" now in a lot group-based PvE content. I've already spoken to many Vampires who are doing very well in trial environments functioning as DPS.
But I don't really see that as a problem, myself. People generally worry too much about competing with one another over their DPS numbers. That's just my perspective, but I've never been one to care about the so-called "meta".
My point was the ability itself (blood for blood) has to have a damage advantage (or some other advantage) coupled with it to offset the health costs and range penalty associated with it - otherwise it would rightfully be shunned and no one would use it. Because no one is going to want to spend their health to get up close and use a "spammable" on someone for less or equal damage when they can do the same without having to negatively affect their health bar in the process.Edited by Jeremy on May 26, 2020 4:00PM2 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Only thing i really hate about new vampire is to be forced to be a bloodscion if you want to use the ultimate. All i want is batswarm.
This has nothing to do with damage or anything like that but purely a roleplaying issue really. I dont want to be a epic vampire lord or whatnot. I just want to be a normal vampire with some control over bats.
I think everyone who cares more about stats and stuff is just limiting their gameplay options by wanting to have always the best because best is not needed in this or many other games at all.
Use the Swarming Scion (or what ever it's called). Then you get the bats.Edited by Jeremy on May 26, 2020 4:00PM0 -
Vevvev✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Only thing i really hate about new vampire is to be forced to be a bloodscion if you want to use the ultimate. All i want is batswarm.
This has nothing to do with damage or anything like that but purely a roleplaying issue really. I dont want to be a epic vampire lord or whatnot. I just want to be a normal vampire with some control over bats.
I think everyone who cares more about stats and stuff is just limiting their gameplay options by wanting to have always the best because best is not needed in this or many other games at all.
I'm in agreement with you. I loved Clouding Swarm, and despite the Swarming Scion being a thing, its just not the same. I don't want to be a ten foot tall giant swinging around a wooden stick, I wanna be an elusive vampire with control over bats and shooting powerful blasts of blood magic from my hands.PC NA - Ceyanna Ashton - Breton Vampire MagDK3 -
John_Falstaff✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭John_Falstaff wrote: »John_Falstaff wrote: »MrBrownstone wrote: »What was the point of this whole vampire rework? I thought it was to make being a vampire more important of a choice instead of BiS in PvE due to 10% recovery.
But it only got worse since it increases sustain by much more thanks to health cost spammable AND also increases damage since the spammable is superior.
I never played as vampire since I can sustain without that recovery bonus and still do the highest possible damage I can do but now I'm forced to become a vampire unless I want to gimp my damage.
Since it requires you to get into melee range and costs health, it would have to do more damage. Otherwise it would be useless and no one would use it.
Again, 'ranged magicka' is often a misnomer - yes, during some part of rotation mag players can stay at range (as can bow/bow stamina players), but in essence, most magicka is still melee, you have Zaan, you have your Incap, sweeps, you have all magDK arsenal... so, being fully ranged (without gimping own damage) has never been a thing and as a mag player you have to stay melee if you want to do your best. Vamp spammable doesn't change much in that regard. As for health, overhealing is really strong in a lot of content. Sure you probably won't run Blood for Blood in vHoF HM execute, but I can think of a lot of places where a moderate DoT running on you (and that's what your spammable is) makes no difference whatsoever.
I disagree that "ranged magicka" is often a misnomer and has never been a thing. It's a nice advantage to have. Having to get up close to your opponent puts you at more risk and is often more difficult to pull off, especially against highly mobile opponents.
So I would say that range is definitely an advantage.
As to your your other points, they seem centered around situations where the player in question is being gratuitously healed by other players and/or in situations where range is of no consequence. So of course it's not going to make a difference in situations like that.
I'm talking mostly group PvE gameplay. I don't mind PvP players having risky but lucrative choice, but in PvE, that argument doesn't really stand, where you wanted highest damage, you had to be up close on magicka anyway, now you'll just have to be up close more of the time (which, yes, may not be appropriate for things like vAS, but that's a particular case). So basically whole PvE is affected by the risk of new icky meta.
Vampires are probably going to be able to top the "DPS charts" now in a lot group-based PvE content. I've already spoken to many Vampires who are doing very well in trial environments functioning as DPS.
But I don't really see that as a problem, myself. People generally worry too much about competing with one another over their DPS numbers. That's just my perspective, but I've never been one to care about the so-called "meta".
My point was the ability itself (blood for blood) has to have a damage advantage (or some other advantage) coupled with it to offset the health costs and range penalty associated with it - otherwise it would rightfully be shunned and no one would use it. Because no one is going to want to spend their health to get up close and use a "spammable" on someone for less or equal damage when they can do the same without having to negatively affect their health bar.
The issue is the scale of the gap between vamps and non-vamps. Sure, people were running vamp for sustain passive in PvE pre-Greymoor, but the difference isn't game-breaking. But even so, everyone in endgame PvE felt peer pressure to go vamp, just for that passive (as a tank main, I sure kept hearing that I should benefit from it, and kept being stubborn about it). Now, the gap is wider: you have better sustain -and- higher damage to boot, and it may prove enough for endgame guilds to demand you being a vamp. I think you're underestimating the tension; sure you won't notice it if you're not in endgame, but if your guild so much as runs progression for vet HMs, for trifectas or scores, you'll sure be very much affected by it. Pre-Greymoor, a bit of sustain is a small thing, it went under the radar, but now, "go vamp or go home" will be running strong.
I'm not really ready to say how to make Blood for Blood viable in PvP but not giving decisive advantage in most of PvE. That's the thing, again, in PvE, health cost as it is now can be disregarded, it's basically free sustain in most places. ZOS should've invested more time into making a spammable that would've been like it is now in PvP, but actually had some real drawbacks that kick in during PvE, but as it is now, in PvE current built-in drawbacks are seldom real. Maybe they had to make BtB a highest burst skill but not highest sustained damage, somehow, that would've solved it.0 -
Paradisius✭✭✭✭Frenzy isn't a suicide if you use it with scion and, again, keep that healbot boi up. Or you can use with for a quick blastbones burst.
That actually brings up another point I forgot to mention, the Scion even at stage 4 is a steep ultimate price after the 6.0.3 changes (Which is 250 Ultimate). Given that your health regen is cut off completely at stage 4, and the only passive bonus is invis sprint, most will go to stage 3 at most. Stage 3 Scion is 280 Ultimate (Even heftier). But you are right, when scion is up frenzy can be up for longer. And before 6.0.3 Spirit Guardian could hold up just fine, but the cost reduction change and the Blood Frenzy costing +20% per second without an upper limit makes it really dangerous even with Spirit Guardian. In testing my goal was to stay above 50% health, in doing so I had about 40~50% Simmering Frenzy uptime. So yes it can work! But the cost comes back around, very dangerous play style that doesnt really have a reward that matches it. (Again, in its current iteration, all it needs is value tweaks to improve this while also not being a brain dead choice)0 -
iiYuki✭✭✭✭✭Who is forcing you to become a Vampire? You and your own pathology.
It might not affect you or various other players, but some people want to or feel the need to do the best dps/ hps/ have the best stats possible etc to do the best they can. By having these sort of buffs people feel locked into having to roll a vampire character to no lose out on marginal increases. I hate using Elemental Weapon, but the next option is 5-10k dps less so I HAVE to use it."Play how you want... unless its not how we intended you to play in which case we'll nerf it".
- ZO$
- The ZO$ Theme Song: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmUJWP_ebsQ0 -
Hexi✭✭✭✭✭Paradisius wrote: »Frenzy isn't a suicide if you use it with scion and, again, keep that healbot boi up. Or you can use with for a quick blastbones burst.
That actually brings up another point I forgot to mention, the Scion even at stage 4 is a steep ultimate price after the 6.0.3 changes (Which is 250 Ultimate). Given that your health regen is cut off completely at stage 4, and the only passive bonus is invis sprint, most will go to stage 3 at most. Stage 3 Scion is 280 Ultimate (Even heftier). But you are right, when scion is up frenzy can be up for longer. And before 6.0.3 Spirit Guardian could hold up just fine, but the cost reduction change and the Blood Frenzy costing +20% per second without an upper limit makes it really dangerous even with Spirit Guardian. In testing my goal was to stay above 50% health, in doing so I had about 40~50% Simmering Frenzy uptime. So yes it can work! But the cost comes back around, very dangerous play style that doesnt really have a reward that matches it. (Again, in its current iteration, all it needs is value tweaks to improve this while also not being a brain dead choice)
There's also the Perfect Scion morph which removes the health regen penalty while it's active.
0 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭John_Falstaff wrote: »John_Falstaff wrote: »John_Falstaff wrote: »MrBrownstone wrote: »What was the point of this whole vampire rework? I thought it was to make being a vampire more important of a choice instead of BiS in PvE due to 10% recovery.
But it only got worse since it increases sustain by much more thanks to health cost spammable AND also increases damage since the spammable is superior.
I never played as vampire since I can sustain without that recovery bonus and still do the highest possible damage I can do but now I'm forced to become a vampire unless I want to gimp my damage.
Since it requires you to get into melee range and costs health, it would have to do more damage. Otherwise it would be useless and no one would use it.
Again, 'ranged magicka' is often a misnomer - yes, during some part of rotation mag players can stay at range (as can bow/bow stamina players), but in essence, most magicka is still melee, you have Zaan, you have your Incap, sweeps, you have all magDK arsenal... so, being fully ranged (without gimping own damage) has never been a thing and as a mag player you have to stay melee if you want to do your best. Vamp spammable doesn't change much in that regard. As for health, overhealing is really strong in a lot of content. Sure you probably won't run Blood for Blood in vHoF HM execute, but I can think of a lot of places where a moderate DoT running on you (and that's what your spammable is) makes no difference whatsoever.
I disagree that "ranged magicka" is often a misnomer and has never been a thing. It's a nice advantage to have. Having to get up close to your opponent puts you at more risk and is often more difficult to pull off, especially against highly mobile opponents.
So I would say that range is definitely an advantage.
As to your your other points, they seem centered around situations where the player in question is being gratuitously healed by other players and/or in situations where range is of no consequence. So of course it's not going to make a difference in situations like that.
I'm talking mostly group PvE gameplay. I don't mind PvP players having risky but lucrative choice, but in PvE, that argument doesn't really stand, where you wanted highest damage, you had to be up close on magicka anyway, now you'll just have to be up close more of the time (which, yes, may not be appropriate for things like vAS, but that's a particular case). So basically whole PvE is affected by the risk of new icky meta.
Vampires are probably going to be able to top the "DPS charts" now in a lot group-based PvE content. I've already spoken to many Vampires who are doing very well in trial environments functioning as DPS.
But I don't really see that as a problem, myself. People generally worry too much about competing with one another over their DPS numbers. That's just my perspective, but I've never been one to care about the so-called "meta".
My point was the ability itself (blood for blood) has to have a damage advantage (or some other advantage) coupled with it to offset the health costs and range penalty associated with it - otherwise it would rightfully be shunned and no one would use it. Because no one is going to want to spend their health to get up close and use a "spammable" on someone for less or equal damage when they can do the same without having to negatively affect their health bar.
The issue is the scale of the gap between vamps and non-vamps. Sure, people were running vamp for sustain passive in PvE pre-Greymoor, but the difference isn't game-breaking. But even so, everyone in endgame PvE felt peer pressure to go vamp, just for that passive (as a tank main, I sure kept hearing that I should benefit from it, and kept being stubborn about it). Now, the gap is wider: you have better sustain -and- higher damage to boot, and it may prove enough for endgame guilds to demand you being a vamp. I think you're underestimating the tension; sure you won't notice it if you're not in endgame, but if your guild so much as runs progression for vet HMs, for trifectas or scores, you'll sure be very much affected by it. Pre-Greymoor, a bit of sustain is a small thing, it went under the radar, but now, "go vamp or go home" will be running strong.
I'm not really ready to say how to make Blood for Blood viable in PvP but not giving decisive advantage in most of PvE. That's the thing, again, in PvE, health cost as it is now can be disregarded, it's basically free sustain in most places. ZOS should've invested more time into making a spammable that would've been like it is now in PvP, but actually had some real drawbacks that kick in during PvE, but as it is now, in PvE current built-in drawbacks are seldom real. Maybe they had to make BtB a highest burst skill but not highest sustained damage, somehow, that would've solved it.
I'm not trying to be dismissive of your concerns or underestimate the tension. I'm sure a lot of "endgame guilds" probably will demand their members become Vampires. That I do not doubt. The real mystery for me is why players put up with that kind of crap.
But that's why I was careful to point out it was just my perspective and that I'm not one who cares about the "meta" or feel as if I have to compete with others over my "DPS".
My point was simply to stress the ability needs to have some kind of advantage associated with it to balance out its weaknesses otherwise no one would use it. So if it's not a damage advantage, then they would need to come up with something else to replace it. But it does need some kind of advantage to offset it's disadvantages to remain a viable skill. Maybe burst potential could be something they could look at. That sounds promising.Edited by Jeremy on May 26, 2020 4:23PM0 -
Paradisius✭✭✭✭
There's also the Perfect Scion morph which removes the health regen penalty while it's active.
If the Scion was longer than 20 seconds I would see that as a valid choice! But 20 Seconds of no detriments on an ultimate that will cost if not 300+, then close to 300 ultimate makes it unappealing. Especially when the other choice is basically Bat Swarm with a stat steroid
2 -
Hexi✭✭✭✭✭Who is forcing you to become a Vampire? You and your own pathology.
It might not affect you or various other players, but some people want to or feel the need to do the best dps/ hps/ have the best stats possible etc to do the best they can. By having these sort of buffs people feel locked into having to roll a vampire character to no lose out on marginal increases. I hate using Elemental Weapon, but the next option is 5-10k dps less so I HAVE to use it.
You can either have fun, or you can compete. Do not blame others for your own choices. The only way to achieve what you people keep complaining about is to have one class with no "wrong" skills like in WoW that has "balanced" to the point that it's a moba.5 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Paradisius wrote: »
There's also the Perfect Scion morph which removes the health regen penalty while it's active.
If the Scion was longer than 20 seconds I would see that as a valid choice! But 20 Seconds of no detriments on an ultimate that will cost if not 300+, then close to 300 ultimate makes it unappealing. Especially when the other choice is basically Bat Swarm with a stat steroid
I prefer the Swarming Scion as well (which is a very powerful ultimate). They would have to buff the other one considerably before I would ever choose it over the bat one.0 -
Hexi✭✭✭✭✭Paradisius wrote: »
There's also the Perfect Scion morph which removes the health regen penalty while it's active.
If the Scion was longer than 20 seconds I would see that as a valid choice! But 20 Seconds of no detriments on an ultimate that will cost if not 300+, then close to 300 ultimate makes it unappealing. Especially when the other choice is basically Bat Swarm with a stat steroid
Oh, I didn't mean to suggest it's better, just an option. I'm never gonna use it myself.
0 -
Austinseph1✭✭✭✭✭Vamp has gotten stronger for those that didn't actually need the sustain and damage, and worse for people that actually needed the bonus sustain while learning to avoid the fire. That's why some say it is pointless while others say it's OP. I play with PUGs a lot so I see it as bad because the majority of people in those groups are statistically on the bad end. They die a lot, and when they try to use an alcast build with vampire on it they will die even more now. I will be more likely to agree to kicking vamps from parties because of the changes. In the top 1% groups of score pushers they are good enough to use vamp to the fullest ability and have infinite sustain and crazy damage. It is the exact opposite of when ZOS constantly tells us they want to do, just increasing the skill gap even more.1 -
John_Falstaff✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭John_Falstaff wrote: »John_Falstaff wrote: »John_Falstaff wrote: »MrBrownstone wrote: »What was the point of this whole vampire rework? I thought it was to make being a vampire more important of a choice instead of BiS in PvE due to 10% recovery.
But it only got worse since it increases sustain by much more thanks to health cost spammable AND also increases damage since the spammable is superior.
I never played as vampire since I can sustain without that recovery bonus and still do the highest possible damage I can do but now I'm forced to become a vampire unless I want to gimp my damage.
Since it requires you to get into melee range and costs health, it would have to do more damage. Otherwise it would be useless and no one would use it.
Again, 'ranged magicka' is often a misnomer - yes, during some part of rotation mag players can stay at range (as can bow/bow stamina players), but in essence, most magicka is still melee, you have Zaan, you have your Incap, sweeps, you have all magDK arsenal... so, being fully ranged (without gimping own damage) has never been a thing and as a mag player you have to stay melee if you want to do your best. Vamp spammable doesn't change much in that regard. As for health, overhealing is really strong in a lot of content. Sure you probably won't run Blood for Blood in vHoF HM execute, but I can think of a lot of places where a moderate DoT running on you (and that's what your spammable is) makes no difference whatsoever.
I disagree that "ranged magicka" is often a misnomer and has never been a thing. It's a nice advantage to have. Having to get up close to your opponent puts you at more risk and is often more difficult to pull off, especially against highly mobile opponents.
So I would say that range is definitely an advantage.
As to your your other points, they seem centered around situations where the player in question is being gratuitously healed by other players and/or in situations where range is of no consequence. So of course it's not going to make a difference in situations like that.
I'm talking mostly group PvE gameplay. I don't mind PvP players having risky but lucrative choice, but in PvE, that argument doesn't really stand, where you wanted highest damage, you had to be up close on magicka anyway, now you'll just have to be up close more of the time (which, yes, may not be appropriate for things like vAS, but that's a particular case). So basically whole PvE is affected by the risk of new icky meta.
Vampires are probably going to be able to top the "DPS charts" now in a lot group-based PvE content. I've already spoken to many Vampires who are doing very well in trial environments functioning as DPS.
But I don't really see that as a problem, myself. People generally worry too much about competing with one another over their DPS numbers. That's just my perspective, but I've never been one to care about the so-called "meta".
My point was the ability itself (blood for blood) has to have a damage advantage (or some other advantage) coupled with it to offset the health costs and range penalty associated with it - otherwise it would rightfully be shunned and no one would use it. Because no one is going to want to spend their health to get up close and use a "spammable" on someone for less or equal damage when they can do the same without having to negatively affect their health bar.
The issue is the scale of the gap between vamps and non-vamps. Sure, people were running vamp for sustain passive in PvE pre-Greymoor, but the difference isn't game-breaking. But even so, everyone in endgame PvE felt peer pressure to go vamp, just for that passive (as a tank main, I sure kept hearing that I should benefit from it, and kept being stubborn about it). Now, the gap is wider: you have better sustain -and- higher damage to boot, and it may prove enough for endgame guilds to demand you being a vamp. I think you're underestimating the tension; sure you won't notice it if you're not in endgame, but if your guild so much as runs progression for vet HMs, for trifectas or scores, you'll sure be very much affected by it. Pre-Greymoor, a bit of sustain is a small thing, it went under the radar, but now, "go vamp or go home" will be running strong.
I'm not really ready to say how to make Blood for Blood viable in PvP but not giving decisive advantage in most of PvE. That's the thing, again, in PvE, health cost as it is now can be disregarded, it's basically free sustain in most places. ZOS should've invested more time into making a spammable that would've been like it is now in PvP, but actually had some real drawbacks that kick in during PvE, but as it is now, in PvE current built-in drawbacks are seldom real. Maybe they had to make BtB a highest burst skill but not highest sustained damage, somehow, that would've solved it.
I'm not trying to be dismissive of your concerns or underestimate the tension. I'm sure a lot of "endgame guilds" probably will demand their members become Vampires. That I do not doubt. The real mystery for me is why players put up with that kind of crap.
But that's why I was careful to point out it was just my perspective and that I'm not one who cares about the "meta" or feel as if I have to compete with others over my "DPS".
My point was simply to stress the ability needs to have some kind of advantage associated with it to balance out its weaknesses otherwise no one would use it. So if it's not a damage advantage, then they would need to come up with something else to replace it. But it does need some kind of advantage to offset it's disadvantages to remain a viable skill. Maybe burst potential could be something they could look at. That sounds promising.
Sad part is... mystery or not, it's just how it is. It's self-proliferating cycle of meta. Sometimes meta may be in small details and nobody will force it on you. Sometimes meta is a big gap, and then you have to abide by it to be allowed to run with other strong players. So... whatever changes are made to the game, they have to include that factor into consideration, because as things stand, meta-minded endgame PvE isn't going away any time soon. Can try to put together a guild of people who progress hardest content off-meta way, but you can imagine that it's going to be very hard.
And yes, I don't challenge that point of yours, yes, vampire has to be a useful skill line, if a skill is worse than alternatives, it's not going to be used. But it's all about skill design - as it stands now, in one part of the game (pvp) skill is balanced out by risks and costs. In other part of the game (pve) it's not balanced out by anything, for most places. So, it's already not a bad start, but they could put more work to move the skill from "separate interesting playstyle in pvp with own drawbacks and advantages, absolute meta in pve" into "separate playstyle in both pvp and pve" category. So, I agree that skill must have advantage over others to be used, that's normal and expected. Just some further work had to be done to avoid making it a no-brainer choice for everything PvE.1 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Who is forcing you to become a Vampire? You and your own pathology.
It might not affect you or various other players, but some people want to or feel the need to do the best dps/ hps/ have the best stats possible etc to do the best they can. By having these sort of buffs people feel locked into having to roll a vampire character to no lose out on marginal increases. I hate using Elemental Weapon, but the next option is 5-10k dps less so I HAVE to use it.
You can either have fun, or you can compete. Do not blame others for your own choices. The only way to achieve what you people keep complaining about is to have one class with no "wrong" skills like in WoW that has "balanced" to the point that it's a moba.
I agree with the sentiment.
There is always going to be a certain set up somewhere that is going to do more damage. To counter that the developers would have to balance the game to the point the gameplay becomes uninteresting and bland. A trap other MMORPGs have fell into.
That's actually one of the things that appeal to me about this game... the diversity of it's gameplay, especially as it relates to character building. I'd hate to see that watered down in the name of "balance".
This isn't to suggest that glaring weaknesses or strengths shouldn't be addressed.2 -
AlAbaster✭✭No tails, no fur, no scales, no hooves, no Klingon brow ridge, no vampire, no werewolf, no boobies. That's my character policy. Relative strengths and weaknesses have nothing to do with it.
Only one thing matters. Masculine style! You could lose 10 or 15% dps without it.
The Obsolete Man0 -
Lord-Otto✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭No tails, no fur, no scales, no hooves, no Klingon brow ridge, no vampire, no werewolf, no boobies. That's my character policy. Relative strengths and weaknesses have nothing to do with it.
Only one thing matters. Masculine style! You could lose 10 or 15% dps without it.
So no fun? Well, wouldn't even take a 200% dps increase for that.1 -
Sealish✭✭✭✭It's sort of a "Damned if you do, Damned if you don't" scenario when designing a transformative skill line that everyone in the game has access to if you are looking at how it will effect the very top percentile of PvE players and Meta builds.
One of two things is going to happen. Either:
A) It provides better incentives than penalties. It becomes mandatory in meta.
It provides worse incentives than penalties. It becomes shunned by meta.
There is no middle ground. It is impossible to balance something so completely that it has literally equal positive and negative effects to the top 1% of players while still being unique and different than anything available currently.
So given this, you will always get either a "Vampires are useless because no meta builds use them" or "Vampires are OP because all the meta builds require them"
Meta, by its definition, is extremely homogenizing. There isn't ever going to be room for much variety.
Instead, if we look at the vast majority of the playerbase... the new vampire skill line adds some interesting choice. Players that aren't in the top 1% have choices in how they play, and have the ability to reach their top DPS in a variety of ways. A standard player will generally never hit their potential DPS ceiling, and so throwing a skill line like this into the mix makes things funner. They can use it, play completely differently than how they were playing before, and decide if they like the feel of it or not.
If they like it, they can use it and achieve the DPS needed to clear any endgame content with it. If they don't, they can ignore it and achieve the same levels of damage with other playstyles (since the theoretical maximum damage for any playstyle is going to be higher than what they will realistically achieve with any given playstyle).
TLDR: Meta is homogenizing by nature and it was always going to swing one way or the other in regards to vampires. Either everyone has to be one or nobody can. The skill tree adds some fun new variety and choice to the rest of the playerbase that makes up the VAST majority of players. Realistically, you can still complete all content in the game with or without it and unless you are in the 1% and playing super competitively you won;t be holding anybody back regardless of your choice as long as you play your chosen playstyle well.2 -
Lylith✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭MrBrownstone wrote: »And as a player who is already giving up on damage by not using pets, I don't want to gimp myself a even more... I'll either refuse to use it and will be even weaker compared to what's achievable or I'll just go use the best options while hating it. Everyone using the same skills makes it very uninteresting.
seems to be the direction the flock is being herded, fewer skills, more of the same, and whoever has the fastest connection, wins.
go zos!
ur killin' it! -.-0
