Vampire is ridiculous

MrBrownstone

What was the point of this whole vampire rework? I thought it was to make being a vampire more important of a choice instead of BiS in PvE due to 10% recovery.

But it only got worse since it increases sustain by much more thanks to health cost spammable AND also increases damage since the spammable is superior.

I never played as vampire since I can sustain without that recovery bonus and still do the highest possible damage I can do but now I'm forced to become a vampire unless I want to gimp my damage.

Isarii

I'm calling for a moratorium on all vampire whining threads until we put all the vampire is mandatory and vampire is useless people in a room together to hash out which contradictory thing to be mad about.

Hexi

Who is forcing you to become a Vampire? You and your own pathology.

ItsMeToo

I like the Vamp changes. Learn2Vamp

Lady_Linux

Isarii wrote: »

I'm calling for a moratorium on all vampire whining threads until we put all the vampire is mandatory and vampire is useless people in a room together to hash out which contradictory thing to be mad about.

Thanks for the laugh... much appreciated

Paradisius

I would say Blood for Blood is overall in an alright spot, it has higher possible damage tooltips than other magicka dps spammables but is only usable in melee and has a health cost tied to it. So its very easy to get yourself in a bad situation if you don't react well. As another stated already, Vampire as a whole has a pretty steep learning curve that imo isn't even worth it in the end, in its current iteration.

Hexi

Paradisius wrote: »

I would say Blood for Blood is overall in an alright spot, it has higher possible damage tooltips than other magicka dps spammables but is only usable in melee and has a health cost tied to it. So its very easy to get yourself in a bad situation if you don't react well. As another stated already, Vampire as a whole has a pretty steep learning curve that imo isn't even worth it in the end, in its current iteration.

That health cost is irrelevant in a group setting where you're not taking constant damage. As a Necro for example, all you have to do is keep healbot boi up and you're solid.

Paradisius

Hexi wrote: »

That health cost is irrelevant in a group setting where you're not taking constant damage. As a Necro for example, all you have to do is keep healbot boi up and you're solid.

You are right in that sense, but the second part of my statement is true. I do infact main Magcro and know that it is a non-issue with Spirit Guardian up, but with that setup Im not only sacrificing a ranged rotation, but also an ability slot for a heal, for a melee spammable that is marginally better than skull. So it can be worked around, but at what cost?

ProfesseurFreder

MrBrownstone wrote: »

What was the point of this whole vampire rework? I thought it was to make being a vampire more important of a choice instead of BiS in PvE due to 10% recovery.

But it only got worse since it increases sustain by much more thanks to health cost spammable AND also increases damage since the spammable is superior.

I never played as vampire since I can sustain without that recovery bonus and still do the highest possible damage I can do but now I'm forced to become a vampire unless I want to gimp my damage.

Could we have that again in English, please?

MrBrownstone

crowfl56 wrote: »

[Quoted post was removed]

What build?

MrBrownstone

ProfesseurFreder wrote: »

MrBrownstone wrote: »

What was the point of this whole vampire rework? I thought it was to make being a vampire more important of a choice instead of BiS in PvE due to 10% recovery.

But it only got worse since it increases sustain by much more thanks to health cost spammable AND also increases damage since the spammable is superior.

I never played as vampire since I can sustain without that recovery bonus and still do the highest possible damage I can do but now I'm forced to become a vampire unless I want to gimp my damage.

Could we have that again in English, please?

English is not my main language and I don't have to perfect my english for some people incapable of understanding a simple text. If someone is incapable of understanding my point just because of some grammar mistakes, [snip]

[Edited to remove Baiting]

ShadowHvo

Blood for Blood should be switched to costing stamina and benefit from weapon damage, as well as dealing physical damage.

But nop. Magicka apparently needs to go melee now, and stamina can get nothing from Vampirism.

Vevvev

Vampire isn't useless but there are some vampire abilities that are, vampiric drain being one of them. I personally don't like it and wish ZOS did more with the skill line but in its current iteration its going to be amazing in PVE for magicka DPS. Bloodmist makes you basically immortal and blood for blood makes it so you never have to worry about sustain again! Issues are in PVP where the vampire falls flat on its face. Sure Blood Scion + Blood For Blood is incredibly powerful but at what cost? You could say the passives are great in PVP for gankers and you are not wrong, but if they're a stamina build they have no vampire damage dealing abilities they can use. Its 100% whatever class and weapon skills they bring to the table, and those have an increased cost associated to them.

I'm just going to sit back and watch the whole thing unfold. I highly doubt there's going to be no balance patches to vampires in the coming weeks or months. It'll be interesting for sure.

ProfesseurFreder

Your English is probably very good, I was referring to the amount of "game jargon" that makes your original post impossible to understand for anyone who is not up on that sort of thing.

Paske

So ...

Nothing changes for you.

Game-play changes for vamps.

Suddenly you have to be a vamp.

If you sustained before you will sustain now.

MrBrownstone

ProfesseurFreder wrote: »

Your English is probably very good, I was referring to the amount of "game jargon" that makes your original post impossible to understand for anyone who is not up on that sort of thing.

BiS means best in slot. Being a vampire in PvE was simply the best option since it gives 10% recovery but the downsides were negligible. So most players were vampires. I wasn't one because I could still sustain without being one.

They didn't like how being a vampire was the best option (I don't either) so they wanted to make it a choice instead. But we ended up getting a spammable skill which costs health, resulting in much better sustain since it doesn't consume your magicka pool, AND dealing higher damage compared to other spammables. I've just seen a video where a player has 10k tooltip with Necro skull (which is one of the best spammables) and 11k with Blood for Blood. This is with full health and the skill deals even more damage if you're low on health.

Considering how the main spammables are one of the highest damage sources for every build, now I have to go vampire if I want to do the same damage that others can. It's even less of an option now.

MrBrownstone

And as a player who is already giving up on damage by not using pets, I don't want to gimp myself a even more... I'll either refuse to use it and will be even weaker compared to what's achievable or I'll just go use the best options while hating it. Everyone using the same skills makes it very uninteresting.

John_Falstaff

Paske wrote: »

So ...

Nothing changes for you.

Game-play changes for vamps.

Suddenly you have to be a vamp.

If you sustained before you will sustain now.

Doesn't work like that. Question of the thread is... If sweaty PvE guilds (or wannabe sweaty guilds) will start demanding people to be vamps for progression, it makes the game even uglier place than it is now. We don't need any more toxicity in the game, it's already chock full of it, and ZOS, instead of making smaller adjustments to balance, brings even more tension. Not cool.

I'm not even speaking about healers who's now having an eyeroll moment, one and all. Because their life just got harder; they'll have to cope with both suicidal hobos running vamp spammable and Thrassians (and blaming healers for their stupidity) and groups who'll simply kick healers out because they're using vamp toggle. So much for game balance.

MrBrownstone

Paske wrote: »

So ...

Nothing changes for you.

Game-play changes for vamps.

Suddenly you have to be a vamp.

If you sustained before you will sustain now.

The sustain difference is much bigger now. 10% recovery wasn't that big of a deal but main spammable cost is almost half of your resource drain so when you no longer have that drain the sustain is crazy. Vampires will be able to use bistat food in any content while I'll have to keep using Witchmother. So they also get a max magicka bonus which results in more damage. The spammable deals more damage than others already... I don't think you understand my point. I have two options:

Ignore the vampire changes and be weaker than others who play vampire. While knowing that I can just embrace it and do better.

Or just embrace vampirism and do the same thing everyone else does, which I hate. I have characters from all classes so I want them to feel different.

Oh and also Sorcerer is my main class and I can't use the vampire spammable anyway because I lose Crystal Fragments...

Jeremy

MrBrownstone wrote: »

What was the point of this whole vampire rework? I thought it was to make being a vampire more important of a choice instead of BiS in PvE due to 10% recovery.

But it only got worse since it increases sustain by much more thanks to health cost spammable AND also increases damage since the spammable is superior.

I never played as vampire since I can sustain without that recovery bonus and still do the highest possible damage I can do but now I'm forced to become a vampire unless I want to gimp my damage.

Since it requires you to get into melee range and costs health, it would have to do more damage. Otherwise it would be useless and no one would use it.

AWinterWolf

Nobody is forcing anyone to be a vampire, isn't it better that you're not just a vampire to help with sustain?

pauld1_ESO

How else are they going to get vampire line sales on the crown store if they don't make it overpowered enough to become meta? Get with the program dude.

Hexi

Paradisius wrote: »

Hexi wrote: »

That health cost is irrelevant in a group setting where you're not taking constant damage. As a Necro for example, all you have to do is keep healbot boi up and you're solid.

You are right in that sense, but the second part of my statement is true. I do infact main Magcro and know that it is a non-issue with Spirit Guardian up, but with that setup Im not only sacrificing a ranged rotation, but also an ability slot for a heal, for a melee spammable that is marginally better than skull. So it can be worked around, but at what cost?

Vampirism is no longer mandatory for passives while giving a bit more flavour to the skill-line. Seems like they achieved their goal perfectly. I'll keep it on my Magcro for flavor reasons and nothing else.

Working as intended.

John_Falstaff

Jeremy wrote: »

MrBrownstone wrote: »

What was the point of this whole vampire rework? I thought it was to make being a vampire more important of a choice instead of BiS in PvE due to 10% recovery.

But it only got worse since it increases sustain by much more thanks to health cost spammable AND also increases damage since the spammable is superior.

I never played as vampire since I can sustain without that recovery bonus and still do the highest possible damage I can do but now I'm forced to become a vampire unless I want to gimp my damage.

Since it requires you to get into melee range and costs health, it would have to do more damage. Otherwise it would be useless and no one would use it.

Again, 'ranged magicka' is often a misnomer - yes, during some part of rotation mag players can stay at range (as can bow/bow stamina players), but in essence, most magicka is still melee, you have Zaan, you have your Incap, sweeps, you have all magDK arsenal... so, being fully ranged (without gimping own damage) has never been a thing and as a mag player you have to stay melee if you want to do your best. Vamp spammable doesn't change much in that regard. As for health, overhealing is really strong in a lot of content. Sure you probably won't run Blood for Blood in vHoF HM execute, but I can think of a lot of places where a moderate DoT running on you (and that's what your spammable is) makes no difference whatsoever.

RedTalon

From the way the stuff is reading, you are choosing either your vampire stuff or the class stuff, there is a trade off in costs and being potent. So either easy vampire stuff and harder other skills or harder vamp stuff.....will toy around with my vamps some but it doesn't seem to be a vampire is god thing, you are making a choice to be more vampire or not.

Ramber

This is why i have never made any of my 9 toons a vampire lol. ever.

Paradisius

Hexi wrote: »

Vampirism is no longer mandatory for passives while giving a bit more flavour to the skill-line. Seems like they achieved their goal perfectly. I'll keep it on my Magcro for flavor reasons and nothing else.

Working as intended.

I do agree with you there, I like the idea that the devs want to do. But I just wish It actually was good enough to drive that goal. Blood For Blood goes from mixed to great based on different views. The other skills? Not so much..The glaring ones being Vampiric Drain having its damage cut by more than half for only 7% increased healing on missing health, and blood frenzy being a suicide tactic for an underwhelming reward outside of 1~3 second burst windows.

Hexi

pauld1_ESO wrote: »

How else are they going to get vampire line sales on the crown store if they don't make it overpowered enough to become meta? Get with the program dude.

It's not overpowered and in fact, completely and utterly worthless for healers and stam builds. Good job on being clueless.

John_Falstaff

RedTalon wrote: »

From the way the stuff is reading, you are choosing either your vampire stuff or the class stuff, there is a trade off in costs and being potent. So either easy vampire stuff and harder other skills or harder vamp stuff.....will toy around with my vamps some but it doesn't seem to be a vampire is god thing, you are making a choice to be more vampire or not.

It's a naive look at things. If choosing vampire is a net gain and picking it gives you more than giving up on non-vamp skill cost and a DoT running on you, then it's a no-brainer, there's no choice, really, not if you want to put yourself at disadvantage.

Hexi

Paradisius wrote: »

Hexi wrote: »

Vampirism is no longer mandatory for passives while giving a bit more flavour to the skill-line. Seems like they achieved their goal perfectly. I'll keep it on my Magcro for flavor reasons and nothing else.

Working as intended.

I do agree with you there, I like the idea that the devs want to do. But I just wish It actually was good enough to drive that goal. Blood For Blood goes from mixed to great based on different views. The other skills? Not so much..The glaring ones being Vampiric Drain having its damage cut by more than half for only 7% increased healing on missing health, and blood frenzy being a suicide tactic for an underwhelming reward outside of 1~3 second burst windows.

Frenzy isn't a suicide if you use it with scion and, again, keep that healbot boi up. Or you can use with for a quick blastbones burst.

Jeremy

John_Falstaff wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

MrBrownstone wrote: »

What was the point of this whole vampire rework? I thought it was to make being a vampire more important of a choice instead of BiS in PvE due to 10% recovery.

But it only got worse since it increases sustain by much more thanks to health cost spammable AND also increases damage since the spammable is superior.

I never played as vampire since I can sustain without that recovery bonus and still do the highest possible damage I can do but now I'm forced to become a vampire unless I want to gimp my damage.

Since it requires you to get into melee range and costs health, it would have to do more damage. Otherwise it would be useless and no one would use it.

Again, 'ranged magicka' is often a misnomer - yes, during some part of rotation mag players can stay at range (as can bow/bow stamina players), but in essence, most magicka is still melee, you have Zaan, you have your Incap, sweeps, you have all magDK arsenal... so, being fully ranged (without gimping own damage) has never been a thing and as a mag player you have to stay melee if you want to do your best. Vamp spammable doesn't change much in that regard. As for health, overhealing is really strong in a lot of content. Sure you probably won't run Blood for Blood in vHoF HM execute, but I can think of a lot of places where a moderate DoT running on you (and that's what your spammable is) makes no difference whatsoever.

I disagree that "ranged magicka" is often a misnomer and has never been a thing. It's a nice advantage to have. Having to get up close to your opponent puts you at more risk and is often more difficult to pull off, especially against highly mobile opponents.

So I would say that range is definitely an advantage.

As to your your other points, they seem centered around situations where the player in question is being gratuitously healed by other players and/or in situations where range is of no consequence. So of course it's not going to make a difference in situations like that.