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Why is Staff a 2h Weapon?
Sealish
✭✭✭✭
I am kinda curious why the staff is a 2h weapon.
You hold it in one hand, it has single hand animations, you can preview a staff and shield equipped, and it has base weapon damage that follows 1h progression and not 2h progression.
Also, i know that this isn't skyrim, but staves were 1h weapons in Skyrim too so there is reasonable precedent within the series (and yes I know that 2h staves also appear in the series).
I feel like this is a missed opportunity. Instead of making Frost Staves the Magicka tank weapon Zenimax could have done this:
1) Made 1h weapons with empty offhand have their own skill line (preferably a melee magicka/stamina "spellblade" style hybrid that scaled on the higher of your two resources... you know... the MOST advertised single weapon style in ESO marketing that for some reason isn't in the game)
2) Left Destro staff with empty offhand the same but reworked Frost into a DPS option
3) Made the tanking skill line dependent upon equipping a shield with either a staff or 1h melee weapon. Skills and passives could split slightly (similar to how Destro splits on staff types) but have the same utility (for example Puncture would do the same thing but would use either Stamina or Magicka based on equipped weapon and would do either Physical or Fire/Lightning/Frost damage)
This would give Magicka Tanks a fully fleshed out tanking tree to use while also allowing DPS frost mages to be a thing.
You hold it in one hand, it has single hand animations, you can preview a staff and shield equipped, and it has base weapon damage that follows 1h progression and not 2h progression.
Also, i know that this isn't skyrim, but staves were 1h weapons in Skyrim too so there is reasonable precedent within the series (and yes I know that 2h staves also appear in the series).
I feel like this is a missed opportunity. Instead of making Frost Staves the Magicka tank weapon Zenimax could have done this:
1) Made 1h weapons with empty offhand have their own skill line (preferably a melee magicka/stamina "spellblade" style hybrid that scaled on the higher of your two resources... you know... the MOST advertised single weapon style in ESO marketing that for some reason isn't in the game)
2) Left Destro staff with empty offhand the same but reworked Frost into a DPS option
3) Made the tanking skill line dependent upon equipping a shield with either a staff or 1h melee weapon. Skills and passives could split slightly (similar to how Destro splits on staff types) but have the same utility (for example Puncture would do the same thing but would use either Stamina or Magicka based on equipped weapon and would do either Physical or Fire/Lightning/Frost damage)
This would give Magicka Tanks a fully fleshed out tanking tree to use while also allowing DPS frost mages to be a thing.
6
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Nemesis7884✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭because its a staff and not a wand i would argue...usually a staff is the 2h version of a wand15 -
Vevvev✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭You still hold it in both hands while blocking but other than that its kinda silly when you look at it that way. I personally prefer the 1 hand and staff style fighting anyway since you can use any spells you want with your free hand then use the staff as a focus and/or as a free spell with the enchantment.PC NA - Ceyanna Ashton - Breton Vampire MagDK0 -
Sealish✭✭✭✭You still hold it in both hands while blocking but other than that its kinda silly when you look at it that way. I personally prefer the 1 hand and staff style fighting anyway since you can use any spells you want with your free hand then use the staff as a focus and/or as a free spell with the enchantment.
True, the blocking animation uses both hands, but it makes sense to with an empty offhand on a 1h versatile weapon. Even 1h melee weapon with no offhand currently has a unique blocking animation. A staff and shield combo makes sense to block differently than just a staff.1 -
Taleof2Cities✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭You still hold it in both hands while blocking but other than that its kinda silly when you look at it that way. I personally prefer the 1 hand and staff style fighting anyway since you can use any spells you want with your free hand then use the staff as a focus and/or as a free spell with the enchantment.
True, the blocking animation uses both hands, but it makes sense to with an empty offhand on a 1h versatile weapon. Even 1h melee weapon with no offhand currently has a unique blocking animation. A staff and shield combo makes sense to block differently than just a staff.
That's your opinion, though, @Sealish.
Which is fine ... you have the right to your opinion.
Most players agree that it is a 2H weapon though.6 -
Bradyfjord✭✭✭✭✭At this point, the game is made with the staff being a 2h weapon. That said, it would be great to have more weapon choices for magicka builds.3 -
HoosierPappy✭✭✭"Most players agree that it is a 2H weapon though."
How many did you ask?
Certainly not me.
I could see either a 2 hand OR a one hand option, and the corresponding limitations with each.....or
lets have some cool one handed wands then!!2 -
Morgha_Kul✭✭✭✭✭
✭Originally, it did use both hands. I've frequently asked to have the animations changed back, but always been ignored.Exploring Tamriel since 1994.0 -
heaven13✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭They actually weren't always considered 2 handed weapons. Not until Summerset. Previously, they only counted as 1, although you still couldn't equip something else with them. Same for bows and actual 2-handed weapons. That patch (update 18) they changed bows, staves, and actual 2-handed weapons to count as 2-pieces so people using them would benefit from a full 5 piece set bonus, instead of 4.
Allowing staves to be equipped with something else would require a new weapon line with how the game works. Right now we have 2-handed, Dual Wield and Sword & Shield. If you only equip a single handed sword/dagger/etc, you won't benefit from either skill line (need to equip two 1-handed weapons to use something like Flurry or sword and shield to use Puncture, for example). So for technical design, staves needed to count as 2-handed.PC/NAMountain God | Leave No Bone Unbroken | Apex Predator | Pure Lunacy | Depths Defier | No Rest for the Wicked | In Defiance of DeathMeet my characters :
Defanged the Devourer | Nature's Wrath | Relentless Raider | True Genius | Bane of Thorns | Subterranean Smasher | Ardent Bibliophile
vAA HM | vHRC HM | vSO HM | vDSA | vMoL HM | vHoF HM | vAS+2 | vCR+2 | vBRP | vSS HM | vKA | vRGIT DOESN'T MATTER BECAUSE THEY'RE ALL THE SAME NOW, THANKS ZOS6 -
Sealish✭✭✭✭They actually weren't always considered 2 handed weapons. Not until Summerset. Previously, they only counted as 1, although you still couldn't equip something else with them. Same for bows and actual 2-handed weapons. That patch (update 18) they changed bows, staves, and actual 2-handed weapons to count as 2-pieces so people using them would benefit from a full 5 piece set bonus, instead of 4.
Allowing staves to be equipped with something else would require a new weapon line with how the game works. Right now we have 2-handed, Dual Wield and Sword & Shield. If you only equip a single handed sword/dagger/etc, you won't benefit from either skill line (need to equip two 1-handed weapons to use something like Flurry or sword and shield to use Puncture, for example). So for technical design, staves needed to count as 2-handed.
You wouldn’t necessarily need a new skill line. You could just use the existing 1h and shield line, change the damage type to match the equipped staff, and have abilities scale from Magicka. They could lock out other offhand options other than shields.0 -
kichwas✭✭✭✭Taleof2Cities wrote: »it makes sense to with an empty offhand on a 1h versatile weapon. Even 1h melee weapon with no offhand currently has a unique blocking animation. A staff and shield combo makes sense to block differently than just a staff.
That's your opinion, though, @Sealish.
Which is fine ... you have the right to your opinion.
Most players agree that it is a 2H weapon though.
Agreeing with @Taleof2Cities ;
Though as fantasy this isn't exactly the right phrase, but I'm reminded of a common statement:
"You're entitled to your own opinion, but not to your own facts."
To the OP, go pick up a 6-foot long stick and try to use it one-handed.
There is certainly room for a discussion that casters should get a 1-handed weapon option,
But staff is not that weapon. Unless we 'break facts' and assume that because it's fantasy the weapon should be used in some arbitrary manner.
Note that there's also room for a request that staff should have a 2-H melee non-magical DPS option - a quarter-staff or -bo-staff.
If we were adding more weapons to the game, my first requests would be for a want / mystic symbol and a quarterstaff. We'd be treading a little too close to copying Guild Wars 2 - but these are logical concepts. But a 1-Handed staff is, factually, NOT a logical concept.
.Edited by kichwas on May 25, 2020 6:42PMJah bless
PST timezone - mostly PvE player.
Super casual player
Seeking a casual 'lets do some dungeons and world stuff together' guild.3 -
Stx✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Staves are 2 handed weapons in every game I have ever played.
I do think we need more weapons in the game though, and also we need light/heavy attacks to scale with highest offensive stat.2 -
Chilly-McFreeze✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭They actually weren't always considered 2 handed weapons. Not until Summerset. Previously, they only counted as 1, although you still couldn't equip something else with them. Same for bows and actual 2-handed weapons. That patch (update 18) they changed bows, staves, and actual 2-handed weapons to count as 2-pieces so people using them would benefit from a full 5 piece set bonus, instead of 4.
Allowing staves to be equipped with something else would require a new weapon line with how the game works. Right now we have 2-handed, Dual Wield and Sword & Shield. If you only equip a single handed sword/dagger/etc, you won't benefit from either skill line (need to equip two 1-handed weapons to use something like Flurry or sword and shield to use Puncture, for example). So for technical design, staves needed to count as 2-handed.
You wouldn’t necessarily need a new skill line. You could just use the existing 1h and shield line, change the damage type to match the equipped staff, and have abilities scale from Magicka. They could lock out other offhand options other than shields.
TBF it would need a little more than that. Just imagine low slash with a staff. You'd basically need to redesign everything from animation to tooltip. Not even get started with balance concerns about wpn/ spell dmg, glyph strength etc.2 -
DTStormfox✭✭✭✭✭Nemesis7884 wrote: »because its a staff and not a wand i would argue...usually a staff is the 2h version of a wand
This is actually a good point.
I believe the mage's staff is inspired by the quarterstaff. The quarterstaff is in fact a two-handed weapon.
If ZOS were to implement a new magicka type weapon (which they probably won't), logically, it would be a wand (and that would be awesome in my opinion).
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Vevvev✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭TheTwistedRune wrote: »
You've not played Skyrim then? You should. It's great.
In Oblivion and Morrowind they were 2 handed weapons though.PC NA - Ceyanna Ashton - Breton Vampire MagDK2 -
HowlKimchi✭✭✭✭✭
✭TheTwistedRune wrote: »
You've not played Skyrim then? You should. It's great.
In Oblivion and Morrowind they were 2 handed weapons though.
I love the veiled clap back of this reply to a slightly condescending post.Edited by HowlKimchi on May 25, 2020 7:17PM3 -
willjones1122✭✭✭While i would agree that if we were using a staff in the real world we would need 2 hands. However, as we're not using it to clobber someone about the head and only as a magical focus, the 2 handed argument doesn't hold weight imo. If you want an example of how to "duel" wield a staff just watch the lord of the rings. Gandalf uses glamdring and his staff together on multiple occasions.
Yes, this would require some serious rebalancing and reverting staves back to a single weapon which would cause issues so not entirely sure it would work with in the game currently, but to discount it based on "physics" is not really relevant. All that said we need more weapons in game and definitely more magicka weapons.0 -
Sealish✭✭✭✭TheTwistedRune wrote: »
You've not played Skyrim then? You should. It's great.
In Oblivion and Morrowind they were 2 handed weapons though.
So what you’re saying then is that in TES, Magicka staves can be used both one and two handed?0 -
Vevvev✭✭✭✭✭
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So what you’re saying then is that in TES, Magicka staves can be used both one and two handed?
They have been shown to be both. In Skyrim they didn't feel nearly as big which made using them with one hand make some sense. In ESO some of those motifs look bulky and cumbersome, which the nature of the weapon being classified being two handed may have had some part in this.
Most people I know classify staves and polearms as two handed weapons. When you begin looking at one handed magical weapons you typically look at runes, wands, and your hands. A very long staff is going to be quite cumbersome to use with a single hand, and in Oblivion the only time you held onto a staff with a single hand is when you cast a spell at a person. When you use the actual staff's enchantment you continue to keep both hands on it.
Although whenever I think of people using a staff in one hand and something else in the other I think of Gandalf. The sword didn't do him much good though...
PC NA - Ceyanna Ashton - Breton Vampire MagDK0 -
Sealish✭✭✭✭
So what you’re saying then is that in TES, Magicka staves can be used both one and two handed?
They have been shown to be both. In Skyrim they didn't feel nearly as big which made using them with one hand make some sense. In ESO some of those motifs look bulky and cumbersome, which the nature of the weapon being classified being two handed may have had some part in this.
Most people I know classify staves and polearms as two handed weapons. When you begin looking at one handed magical weapons you typically look at runes, wands, and your hands. A very long staff is going to be quite cumbersome to use with a single hand, and in Oblivion the only time you held onto a staff with a single hand is when you cast a spell at a person. When you use the actual staff's enchantment you continue to keep both hands on it.
Although whenever I think of people using a staff in one hand and something else in the other I think of Gandalf. The sword didn't do him much good though...
Thats fair. What made me think about it at all in the first place was that (with the exception of blocking) every animation seemed to only use one hand and you held the staff in one hand while wielding it. This plus the fact that you can preview shields while wearing a staff (something you cannot do with other 2h weapons) and you hold the shield in one hand with the staff in the other.
It just seemed to me like they made the staff as a 1h weapon but then decided to change their mind later.
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TheTwistedRune✭✭✭✭✭TheTwistedRune wrote: »
You've not played Skyrim then? You should. It's great.
In Oblivion and Morrowind they were 2 handed weapons though.
I'm aware of that.
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TheTwistedRune✭✭✭✭✭
So what you’re saying then is that in TES, Magicka staves can be used both one and two handed?
They have been shown to be both. In Skyrim they didn't feel nearly as big which made using them with one hand make some sense. In ESO some of those motifs look bulky and cumbersome, which the nature of the weapon being classified being two handed may have had some part in this.
Most people I know classify staves and polearms as two handed weapons. When you begin looking at one handed magical weapons you typically look at runes, wands, and your hands. A very long staff is going to be quite cumbersome to use with a single hand, and in Oblivion the only time you held onto a staff with a single hand is when you cast a spell at a person. When you use the actual staff's enchantment you continue to keep both hands on it.
Although whenever I think of people using a staff in one hand and something else in the other I think of Gandalf. The sword didn't do him much good though...
Thats fair. What made me think about it at all in the first place was that (with the exception of blocking) every animation seemed to only use one hand and you held the staff in one hand while wielding it. This plus the fact that you can preview shields while wearing a staff (something you cannot do with other 2h weapons) and you hold the shield in one hand with the staff in the other.
It just seemed to me like they made the staff as a 1h weapon but then decided to change their mind later.
Perhaps it was a balance issue? Being a ranged weapon after all. Because as you stated it mainly being animated to be used in one hand. If it was also used for melee combat then I'd understand it being a 2 handed weapon. Maybe they should have had both from the outset, a 1handed and 2handed. Ranged and melee respectively.
Food for thought.
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Granicus✭✭✭I agree it’s 2H. Though, Gandalf did use both Staff and Sword (Glamdring) in some fights, so ... 😄PC/NA
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Druid40✭✭✭✭The better question is, "Why do staves and bows have lower base damage than two-handed melee weapons?".1 -
Sealish✭✭✭✭The better question is, "Why do staves and bows have lower base damage than two-handed melee weapons?".
This is just a guess, but I think it is because Melee options are generally weighted to have higher damage than Ranged options to balance out the fact that you are safer and it is easier to hit targets with Ranged options.1 -
redgreensunset✭✭✭✭✭
✭Taleof2Cities wrote: »it makes sense to with an empty offhand on a 1h versatile weapon. Even 1h melee weapon with no offhand currently has a unique blocking animation. A staff and shield combo makes sense to block differently than just a staff.
That's your opinion, though, @Sealish.
Which is fine ... you have the right to your opinion.
Most players agree that it is a 2H weapon though.
Agreeing with @Taleof2Cities ;
Though as fantasy this isn't exactly the right phrase, but I'm reminded of a common statement:
"You're entitled to your own opinion, but not to your own facts."
To the OP, go pick up a 6-foot long stick and try to use it one-handed.
There is certainly room for a discussion that casters should get a 1-handed weapon option,
But staff is not that weapon. Unless we 'break facts' and assume that because it's fantasy the weapon should be used in some arbitrary manner.
Note that there's also room for a request that staff should have a 2-H melee non-magical DPS option - a quarter-staff or -bo-staff.
If we were adding more weapons to the game, my first requests would be for a want / mystic symbol and a quarterstaff. We'd be treading a little too close to copying Guild Wars 2 - but these are logical concepts. But a 1-Handed staff is, factually, NOT a logical concept.
.
I would agree with you if our character actually used the staff as a staff, ie hit people with it. We don't, we shoot magic from it. Even my five foot and not much beyond that can pick up a six foot stick and point it reliably at someone.
And before people go, "but blocking," let me assure you that anyone who knows thing stuff beyond the rudimentary of actual staff fighting, ie hitting people with a 6 feet long stick, know how to use one to block one handed.0 -
Knightpanther✭✭✭✭✭
✭As someone who learned and Mastered old English fighting styles the staff (Quarterstaff) was a two handed weapon.
You need two hands to use it for efficient blocking and is used like a *** sword for striking.
It was a weapon used by the masses as swords were far too expensive for your average peasant.
Of course they weren't magic otherwise us druids would have seen off those pesky Romans
Be Safe1
