Nightblade Class Identity/Balance

OWLTHEMAD · May 2020

Are you referringbto stam or mag? Aside from a couple notable dead skills (like mark. I want to use it. Feels like its almost good. It just isnt) If you are strictly speaking about numbers i feel like the mag side of things is pretty decent. Not perfdct but decent. Th eff heals need to be better tuned for pvp. And the cast times and travel times really screw up the pvp gameplay. I think certain durations and secondary effects could be looked at as well. Rotation is janky as heck, and we really dont provide much if any group utility.

I dont know, im just not convinced damage is really the issue.

MindOfTheSwarm · May 2020

OWLTHEMAD wrote: »

Are you referringbto stam or mag? Aside from a couple notable dead skills (like mark. I want to use it. Feels like its almost good. It just isnt) If you are strictly speaking about numbers i feel like the mag side of things is pretty decent. Not perfdct but decent. Th eff heals need to be better tuned for pvp. And the cast times and travel times really screw up the pvp gameplay. I think certain durations and secondary effects could be looked at as well. Rotation is janky as heck, and we really dont provide much if any group utility.

I dont know, im just not convinced damage is really the issue.

I do not think that myself or anyone else was speaking of damage numbers. The issue is the class 'identity' and the fact that a lot of what NB's can do is covered by the other classes. NB's offer nothing unique anymore, even invisibility is accessible to everyone now. This post has nothing to do with damage numbers. It is about the 'feel' of a NB and outside of the Shadow tank line (which is excellent outside of cloak), the NB lacks an identity. The Assassin skill line has abilities that are worse than some weapon skills. Impale is a decent morph as it is a ranged execute for Magicka's NB's but why take Killer's Blade when you can take Executioner or Whirling Blades that do the job better? Teleport Strike and morphs is fine, I don't like vulnerability on it, but many others do so it's ok. Blur should not be on this skill line at all and NEEDS to get swapped with Veiled Strike. That leaves Mark which is underwhelming and Grim Focus which deals good damage yes, but is very clunky to use and needs a rework. When you really look at things the NB DPS skill line looks like this:

1 Ultimate

2 damage skills none of which are a DPS class spammable.

3 Non- damage skills with one of them having potential damage.

How can this be considered a DPS skill line? The best damaging skill on the Assassin line is the Ultimate, yes it has a low cost and this is a good selling point and possibly an angle they could build the whole skill line around. Having Assassin skill line abilities restore Ultimate for example could be one direction. Currently, the Ultimate boosts your damage by 20% which is nice but does not really help the skill line itself. Another direction would be to have the Assassin skills give you some kind of 'Assassin's Fervor' buff that stacks up and increases the damage of your next Death Stroke. This would essentially reverse the function of the ultimate. There are many options for the skill line to feel more unique. It's not about damage numbers that the class can put out, it's about 'feel'.

I invite other players to offer suggestions to the skills themselves. Share what you want to see in the class with actual examples. The more players offer examples, the better idea we as a community can agree on what the class should look like.

ExistingRug61 · May 2020

This is more specific to mark rather than identity as a whole. I do like many of the previous suggestions, but another idea I had was that mark could be used as for nightblades’ new source of minor berserk. Not just simply getting the buff on cast but instead be that you gain minor berserk for a short period like a few seconds when attacking a marked target (so it would effectively be continuous as long as you keep attacking). This is similar to the suggestion by @OWLTHEMAD to front load berserk, but in this case just the minor version for attacking, and then you still get major for the kill.

Not as powerful as when it was on grim focus as you wouldn’t be able to pre-buff without alerting the target, plus it wouldn’t apply to the first strike. Additionally it could be extended to give minor berserk to anyone attacking the marked target, but this might be a bit strong, especially for a free skill. Would add a bit of lacking group utility.

A separate change which I would like, from a purely magblade pvp perspective, is some form of added off stat sustain somewhere (siphoning tree makes most sense I guess). This is because I like the idea of magblade being melee given the skills we have but I find this requires more dodgerolling, and I always feel I lack the stam sustain required for this without significant investment. This could actually be in the form of passive reductions/bonuses for dodge roll and break free rather than straight regen. I do realise this is a change to suit my specific desired play style though, so understand there are probably more important changes that could be made.

MindOfTheSwarm · May 2020

ExistingRug61 wrote: »

This is more specific to mark rather than identity as a whole. I do like many of the previous suggestions, but another idea I had was that mark could be used as for nightblades’ new source of minor berserk. Not just simply getting the buff on cast but instead be that you gain minor berserk for a short period like a few seconds when attacking a marked target (so it would effectively be continuous as long as you keep attacking). This is similar to the suggestion by @OWLTHEMAD to front load berserk, but in this case just the minor version for attacking, and then you still get major for the kill.

Not as powerful as when it was on grim focus as you wouldn’t be able to pre-buff without alerting the target, plus it wouldn’t apply to the first strike. Additionally it could be extended to give minor berserk to anyone attacking the marked target, but this might be a bit strong, especially for a free skill. Would add a bit of lacking group utility.

A separate change which I would like, from a purely magblade pvp perspective, is some form of added off stat sustain somewhere (siphoning tree makes most sense I guess). This is because I like the idea of magblade being melee given the skills we have but I find this requires more dodgerolling, and I always feel I lack the stam sustain required for this without significant investment. This could actually be in the form of passive reductions/bonuses for dodge roll and break free rather than straight regen. I do realise this is a change to suit my specific desired play style though, so understand there are probably more important changes that could be made.

Your point about Magicka NB's and struggling to sustain with dodging does to a degree make sense. Magicka NB's do get to keep up cloak more often though and they have access to 2 powerful shields to help offset the lack of sustained dodge rolling. Personally, I feel Stamblades have a rougher time surviving than Magblades but maybe that is just my experience. One idea they could implement is perhaps changing one of the Blur morphs into a 'Blink' ability. For Example:

Blur (Moved to Shadow Line):

Surround yourself in a phantasmic aura to gain Major Evasion, decreasing damage from area attacks by 25% for 26 seconds.

Morph 1: Mirage:

Also grants Minor Resolve and Major Evasion for the duration, increasing your Physical Resistance and Spell Resistance.
Also grants Major Expedition for a short period after activation, increasing your Movement Speed.

(Basically combining both morph into one that lets it compete with Shuffle)

Morph 2: Blink: (Changed from Double Take)

Teleport a short distance in the direction you are facing instead. Will dodge incoming attacks during and for 0.5 seconds after. Consumes additional Magicka if used again within 3 seconds.

This would essentially give NB's a Magicka 'dodge', very similar to Streak but without the offensive elements in place of evasion.

People may cry overpowered when used alongside Shadow Image and perhaps Undo. But personally, I think that could be a lot of fun.

ExistingRug61 · May 2020

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

ExistingRug61 wrote: »

This is more specific to mark rather than identity as a whole. I do like many of the previous suggestions, but another idea I had was that mark could be used as for nightblades’ new source of minor berserk. Not just simply getting the buff on cast but instead be that you gain minor berserk for a short period like a few seconds when attacking a marked target (so it would effectively be continuous as long as you keep attacking). This is similar to the suggestion by @OWLTHEMAD to front load berserk, but in this case just the minor version for attacking, and then you still get major for the kill.

Not as powerful as when it was on grim focus as you wouldn’t be able to pre-buff without alerting the target, plus it wouldn’t apply to the first strike. Additionally it could be extended to give minor berserk to anyone attacking the marked target, but this might be a bit strong, especially for a free skill. Would add a bit of lacking group utility.

A separate change which I would like, from a purely magblade pvp perspective, is some form of added off stat sustain somewhere (siphoning tree makes most sense I guess). This is because I like the idea of magblade being melee given the skills we have but I find this requires more dodgerolling, and I always feel I lack the stam sustain required for this without significant investment. This could actually be in the form of passive reductions/bonuses for dodge roll and break free rather than straight regen. I do realise this is a change to suit my specific desired play style though, so understand there are probably more important changes that could be made.

Your point about Magicka NB's and struggling to sustain with dodging does to a degree make sense. Magicka NB's do get to keep up cloak more often though and they have access to 2 powerful shields to help offset the lack of sustained dodge rolling. Personally, I feel Stamblades have a rougher time surviving than Magblades but maybe that is just my experience. One idea they could implement is perhaps changing one of the Blur morphs into a 'Blink' ability. For Example:

Blur (Moved to Shadow Line):

Surround yourself in a phantasmic aura to gain Major Evasion, decreasing damage from area attacks by 25% for 26 seconds.

Morph 1: Mirage:

Also grants Minor Resolve and Major Evasion for the duration, increasing your Physical Resistance and Spell Resistance.
Also grants Major Expedition for a short period after activation, increasing your Movement Speed.

(Basically combining both morph into one that lets it compete with Shuffle)

Morph 2: Blink: (Changed from Double Take)

Teleport a short distance in the direction you are facing instead. Will dodge incoming attacks during and for 0.5 seconds after. Consumes additional Magicka if used again within 3 seconds.

This would essentially give NB's a Magicka 'dodge', very similar to Streak but without the offensive elements in place of evasion.

People may cry overpowered when used alongside Shadow Image and perhaps Undo. But personally, I think that could be a lot of fun.

Yeah I see your point about other defensive options for magblade. I can’t make an educated comparison vs stamblade as I don’t play it enough to do so. On magblade though, generally with the state of cloak at the moment I find it too unreliable most of the time unless it is preceded by a dodge roll (as it seems cloak too often immediately breaks from already incoming attacks etc which dodge roll prevents), hence why I find dodge roll important specifically in contrast to other mag defences as it actually gives you a chance to get cloak to work. But as I said, this is really just personal preference to support how I want to play.

While I do like the idea of a Magicka dodge, and definitely agree it would be cool, unless it gets balanced perfectly right from implementation, I would be worried that the combination of Magicka dodge/blink -> cloak might be too reliable and repeatable as an escape/defence and then just lead to both getting nerfed to be worse than where we currently are. I’m also in two minds about a mag dodge/blink on nightblade in general, while I definitely love it conceptually and think it’s cool, adding blink to nightblade might be taking a little too much from sorcs uniqueness, and generally I think classes should retain their unique class identity skills as much as possible. Maybe if it just gave the dodge effect plus expedition and evasion, but not the actual teleport.

Qbiken · May 2020

Remove cast times, lower the minimum travel time on bow proc and swallow soul (or whatever the dmg morph is called) and give nightblade a good offensive passive or two.

Would put them in a much better spot. If I had to pick one of these I'd probably get rid of the cast time on their ultimates. It needs to be reverted asap.

MarzAttakz · May 2020

ExistingRug61 wrote: »

While I do like the idea of a Magicka dodge, and definitely agree it would be cool, unless it gets balanced perfectly right from implementation, I would be worried that the combination of Magicka dodge/blink -> cloak might be too reliable and repeatable as an escape/defence and then just lead to both getting nerfed to be worse than where we currently are. I’m also in two minds about a mag dodge/blink on nightblade in general, while I definitely love it conceptually and think it’s cool, adding blink to nightblade might be taking a little too much from sorcs uniqueness, and generally I think classes should retain their unique class identity skills as much as possible. Maybe if it just gave the dodge effect plus expedition and evasion, but not the actual teleport.

*** it, seriously, they've stripped us down to the point where I don't give a toss about other classes feelings anymore. Blink in the direction you're travelling, not facing, would be awesome.

OWLTHEMAD · May 2020

I think the 2 biggest and most significant issues with nightblades are clunkiness (cast times and wasteful gcds) and group utility (particularly in endgame.)

To solve the first issue. I would at least lower the cast time on soulharvest and morphs if not out right remove it, and lower thd travel times on bow proc and swallow soul. You know, the usual. Alternatively (not in conjunction) i would force a delay on when you can break free from fear. This i think would help tremendously with making mightblade combos viable.

As far as group utility

The first thing i would do is take a look at reapers mark. With one small change this could be a powerful group skill and a must slot on healers. Give th ed kill reward to who ever gets the kill. Not just the player. This would make the ability very helpful in tough add fights in endgame without making the sorc atro synergy obsolete in single target boss fights.

Soul siphon needs some work as well. The heal on this ulti is already plenty strong. Major vitality in this case i feel is just redundant and being only four seconds contributes little to group or personal survivability.

Instead i would replace this with an offensive buff. Possibly one traditionally provided by gear (major/minor courage perhaps?) So as not to encroach on another classes territory while simultaneously offering the nightblade healer more flexibility with gear to account for their less than stellar healing prowess. It wouldnt need to be a high uptime, just enough to mix up the gear meta a bit. Key takeaway. Vitality should be swapped for an offensive buff.

Funnel health should have its healing or damage buffed by conditions. I inderstand the need for this ability not to provide too much damag, but as a damage based heal it simply does too little.

Twisting path needs expedition replaced. If i were to do anything with this skill, it would be the one skill i think could justify bringing back passive dodge in the form of the blind status as seen on meridias blessed armor. It wouldnt be overpowered due to being ground based, and thus would either lock the player to that position, or be a tool to force opponents out of a position. All you would need is a small %chance at evading damage. Assuming this was still to strong of an ability for passive dodge, i would put passive dodge on anyone standing in the veil of blades ultimate. Anyone who is standing in materialised darkness i think should be difficult to hit but thats just me.

Also, last but not least someway somehow lifesteal needs to be in siphoning skill line. Makes no sense to not be there.

MindOfTheSwarm · May 2020

OWLTHEMAD wrote: »

I think the 2 biggest and most significant issues with nightblades are clunkiness (cast times and wasteful gcds) and group utility (particularly in endgame.)

To solve the first issue. I would at least lower the cast time on soulharvest and morphs if not out right remove it, and lower thd travel times on bow proc and swallow soul. You know, the usual. Alternatively (not in conjunction) i would force a delay on when you can break free from fear.

I agree on cast times 100%. They need to go on a fast paced style. Maybe tether style effects on Siphoning line outside of Soul Tether could work as a kind of blood draining play style. Really, it comes down to 'identity' though for a lot of people. Damage numbers and cast times are in someways a separate discussion even though these things need to be addressed if skills change in function. Necromancers are a great example of class identity as they work around corpses, this is a unique mechanic. NB's lack a unique mechanic, this is the crux of the 'identity' problem for them.

actosh · May 2020

I like the Mark Target proposal, but it should take enemys more dmg from all sources, lets say 3-4%.

MindOfTheSwarm · May 2020

actosh wrote: »

I like the Mark Target proposal, but it should take enemys more dmg from all sources, lets say 3-4%.

Not a bad idea although I would say 5%, provided that it does not stack. Can't have 10 NB's all putting their own mark on an enemy and increasing damage taken by 50%.

Moose_Scout · May 2020

Removing cast times--Nightblade's identity should be the sneaky "combo class"

Legendry · May 2020

[snip] The nightblade nerfs were very much needed and had a very positive impact on the game. Look at how many players are trying necro and warden. That is a big win. These changes are all completely logical and served the game development the most. The only thing that has to be done about the class as in terms of balance is to make cloak ramp up like streak does. Its unfair that it doesn't. Or you could remove the ramp increase in streak to make it even for sorcs.

Just my two cents. This is not a nerf nb. Buff streak pls.

[Minor Edit for Baiting]

OWLTHEMAD · May 2020

In retrospect, i dislike my own comments on passive dodge.

Im just really really tired of being reminded every time i play that someone knew this class so poorly that they thought path was the best place, or even a viable place, for our only expedition buff. Its infuriating.

Im not sure what should go there but expedition aint it. Not without fundamentally changing how the skill functions.

Crash427 · May 2020

OWLTHEMAD wrote: »

In retrospect, i dislike my own comments on passive dodge.

Im just really really tired of being reminded every time i play that someone knew this class so poorly that they thought path was the best place, or even a viable place, for our only expedition buff. Its infuriating.

Im not sure what should go there but expedition aint it. Not without fundamentally changing how the skill functions.

If path had a snare clear it would be an interesting choice vs race against time. A little bit of healing and major expedition to help get you out of a bad spot, or a snare clear with minor force to go offensive.

Katahdin · May 2020

Legendry wrote: »

[snip] The nightblade nerfs were very much needed and had a very positive impact on the game. Look at how many players are trying necro and warden. That is a big win. These changes are all completely logical and served the game development the most. The only thing that has to be done about the class as in terms of balance is to make cloak ramp up like streak does. Its unfair that it doesn't. Or you could remove the ramp increase in streak to make it even for sorcs.

Just my two cents. This is not a nerf nb. Buff streak pls.

[Minor Edit for Baiting]

[snip] It does not justify gutting and utterly destroying a class that was a base game staple. You hardly ever see a NB in a trial any more.

[snip] NB mains like their NBs and still want to play them regardless of whatever new class or DLC ZoS wants to sell.

[snip] Cloak is the most countered skill in the game, use one of the MANY counters to it.

Dont even talk to me about sorcs, they cry and cry they are so weak but yet I see them wipe 3 people at a time in Cyro, and eat damage for breakfast and still survive 5 people pounding on them. I still see sorcs streaking 5,6,7 times before they finally run out of magicka, so much for the increased cost per use. It doesnt need a buff.

[Edited to remove Conspiracy Theory]

MindOfTheSwarm · May 2020

Katahdin wrote: »

Legendry wrote: »

[snip] The nightblade nerfs were very much needed and had a very positive impact on the game. Look at how many players are trying necro and warden. That is a big win. These changes are all completely logical and served the game development the most. The only thing that has to be done about the class as in terms of balance is to make cloak ramp up like streak does. Its unfair that it doesn't. Or you could remove the ramp increase in streak to make it even for sorcs.

Just my two cents. This is not a nerf nb. Buff streak pls.

[Minor Edit for Baiting]

[snip] It does not justify gutting and utterly destroying a class that was a base game staple. You hardly ever see a NB in a trial any more.

[snip] NB mains like their NBs and still want to play them regardless of whatever new class or DLC ZoS wants to sell.

[snip] Cloak is the most countered skill in the game, use one of the MANY counters to it.

Dont even talk to me about sorcs, they cry and cry they are so weak but yet I see them wipe 3 people at a time in Cyro, and eat damage for breakfast and still survive 5 people pounding on them. I still see sorcs streaking 5,6,7 times before they finally run out of magicka, so much for the increased cost per use. It doesnt need a buff.

Sorcs cry because they mess up and get bursted. They then justify this as them being weak. Sorcs have been top tier DPS in PVE for a long time, it is only very recently that other classes have been brought up to a similar standard with Necros being the highest tier now. In PVP Sorcs have always been the 'safest' class to play, if you know what you are doing. I have gotten killed by a Sorc 10 times in a single game and if II kill them once, I suddenly get hate mail complaining that I only won because Sorcs are 'weak'. They are not weak, they just leave very little room for error, but this is what you get if you want to have a ranged class with incredible burst and escape options. Sorcs are for another discussion though if it is even needed. Personally I think Sorcs are a very nice class to play that are tons of fun and have a very well defined identity. I could say the same for all classes (although I think in general more unique mechanics for all outside of Necro would be welcome).

MindOfTheSwarm · May 2020

Crash427 wrote: »

OWLTHEMAD wrote: »

In retrospect, i dislike my own comments on passive dodge.

Im just really really tired of being reminded every time i play that someone knew this class so poorly that they thought path was the best place, or even a viable place, for our only expedition buff. Its infuriating.

Im not sure what should go there but expedition aint it. Not without fundamentally changing how the skill functions.

If path had a snare clear it would be an interesting choice vs race against time. A little bit of healing and major expedition to help get you out of a bad spot, or a snare clear with minor force to go offensive.

Not so sure on the snare option for Path. For me Wardens should be the snare focussed class with their Frost abilities. I did think about Path quite a bit yesterday and I wondered about more about whether NB's identity can be actually be worked around their very name 'NIGHTblade'.
Bear with me for a moment.

So Nightblade's are all about misdirection, slight of hand and deception. Well, why not focus on the 'Night' aspect of things.
For example (and this is just an idea): Imagine that Nightblades got a passive that caused them to say deal 5% more damage at night time. Obviously the first alarm bell that rings is "But what about during the day?". Well there are the NB's Shadow abilities to cover that. This passive could also apply to Path of Darkness, Consuming Darkness and for a few seconds after Aspect of Terror. Consuming Darkness being an Ultimate should absolutely grant invisibility while you are in it (could someone see in complete darkness?). I am not sure how this would work with the other skill lines and I will think on it more. But I do agree that Path giving Expedition feels a clunky and 'off'.

OWLTHEMAD · May 2020

Well technically the hidden refresh synergy gives group invisibility when activated, but its so clumsy and poorly implemented it doesnt make sense. I could see invisibility comparable to potion effects being a synergy of path. That would be neat.

I cant see it being overpowered in combat because of cooldowns but it would have tremendous utility.

Czekoludek · May 2020

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

Crash427 wrote: »

OWLTHEMAD wrote: »

In retrospect, i dislike my own comments on passive dodge.

Im just really really tired of being reminded every time i play that someone knew this class so poorly that they thought path was the best place, or even a viable place, for our only expedition buff. Its infuriating.

Im not sure what should go there but expedition aint it. Not without fundamentally changing how the skill functions.

If path had a snare clear it would be an interesting choice vs race against time. A little bit of healing and major expedition to help get you out of a bad spot, or a snare clear with minor force to go offensive.

Not so sure on the snare option for Path. For me Wardens should be the snare focussed class with their Frost abilities. I did think about Path quite a bit yesterday and I wondered about more about whether NB's identity can be actually be worked around their very name 'NIGHTblade'.
Bear with me for a moment.

So Nightblade's are all about misdirection, slight of hand and deception. Well, why not focus on the 'Night' aspect of things.
For example (and this is just an idea): Imagine that Nightblades got a passive that caused them to say deal 5% more damage at night time. Obviously the first alarm bell that rings is "But what about during the day?". Well there are the NB's Shadow abilities to cover that. This passive could also apply to Path of Darkness, Consuming Darkness and for a few seconds after Aspect of Terror. Consuming Darkness being an Ultimate should absolutely grant invisibility while you are in it (could someone see in complete darkness?). I am not sure how this would work with the other skill lines and I will think on it more. But I do agree that Path giving Expedition feels a clunky and 'off'.

I would change that to deal more dmg when shadow ability is up. Nb damage wise is not bad in PvE, the problem is, they are completely unreliable in high lag/delay/ping situations. Too much of their power depends on LA weaving and timing. Compare it to stamplar one button rota to see what i mean by that. In PvP they are a mess.
I think many Nb mains agree that class at this point needs solid rebalance

Saubon · May 2020

Czekoludek wrote: »

Nb damage wise is not bad in PvE, the problem is, they are completely unreliable in high lag/delay/ping situations. Too much of their power depends on LA weaving and timing. Compare it to stamplar one button rota to see what i mean by that. In PvP they are a mess.
I think many Nb mains agree that class at this point needs solid rebalance

Pretty much this, considering curent state of servers. I just hope devs will take this as an opportunity and make nbs less dependable on LA weaving. I mean, I don't want braindead rotation as stamplars have, I just want it to be reliable

MindOfTheSwarm · May 2020

Saubon wrote: »

Czekoludek wrote: »

Nb damage wise is not bad in PvE, the problem is, they are completely unreliable in high lag/delay/ping situations. Too much of their power depends on LA weaving and timing. Compare it to stamplar one button rota to see what i mean by that. In PvP they are a mess.
I think many Nb mains agree that class at this point needs solid rebalance

Pretty much this, considering curent state of servers. I just hope devs will take this as an opportunity and make nbs less dependable on LA weaving. I mean, I don't want braindead rotation as stamplars have, I just want it to be reliable

Problem is that Light Attacks weaving should be happening anyway. Light Attacks account for a significant amount of damage in a rotation. I am perhaps one of the few players who think that Light Attack damage needs to be nerfed, but at the same time allow the opportunity for a 'Light Attack Build' be viable if a player focuses on them and equips the right sets to compliment it. For Example:

Imagine if Light Attacks dealt say half of the damage they deal now without investment. Ok so now you have made them less of an absolute necessity but also rewarding for those who weave for a 'little' extra DPS. The difference between someone who weaves and someone who does not, is now less of a gap.
Then with this flat nerf in mind, you can then buff certain sets that boost the effectiveness of Light Attacks, sets such as Unweaver, Infiltrator, Noble Duelist, Storm Master and Ophidian Venom all come to mind. If you then make Empower last longer or more accessible you can then make room for a build to compete with regular skill focused builds.

Can you remember when we had Haste? It did not fit the game back then which is why it was removed, but now I am not so sure. If Haste was brought back and one morph granting Empower for its duration (say 10 seconds), you could make a dedicated Light Attack build if you wanted to. The other morph could do something else to benefit players that do not want to focus on Light Attacks, something simple like reduce the cost of your skills by X% while active. But then you would run into another problem. Which skill gets replaced?

The problem now is that, if you don't weave, you are giving up a tremendous amount of DPS. They recently wanted to rework them and make them weaker and I was a player that welcomed this, but I think it was badly received because this change on its own would not be a good thing.

As I have said many times previously in this post, in my opinion the Shadow Line is fantastic and only needs a couple of tweaks.

The main issue is the Assassination Line and to a lesser degree the Siphoning Line.

I think that Nightblades lack identity not because of their damage or lag or anything outside that. It is simply this:

Their skills do not synergise with each other as much as other classes do. It's the character and feel of the NB that has faded.

MindOfTheSwarm · May 2020

Saubon wrote: »

Czekoludek wrote: »

Nb damage wise is not bad in PvE, the problem is, they are completely unreliable in high lag/delay/ping situations. Too much of their power depends on LA weaving and timing. Compare it to stamplar one button rota to see what i mean by that. In PvP they are a mess.
I think many Nb mains agree that class at this point needs solid rebalance

Pretty much this, considering curent state of servers. I just hope devs will take this as an opportunity and make nbs less dependable on LA weaving. I mean, I don't want braindead rotation as stamplars have, I just want it to be reliable

Apologies for quoting you twice but I just had an idea after I replied to you.

You mention that you don't want a brain dead rotation and also not want to have to rely on Light Attacks so much. That's fair enough, no argument there. So how about an Assassination skill line that works around building up damage on one skill.
The skill in question could be Grim Focus.

Currently you get the Spectral Bow by using Light Attacks, but let's be honest. It is very clunky. Why not simply have the skill be available at all times BUT its damage increases after using an Assassination skill (assuming Veiled Strike gets swapped with Blur and moved to Assassination Line.) This way you build up your finisher by using your abilities. Making the line more synergistic. Obviously, the base damage would need to be nerfed, but with say 3 stacks max you could hit quite hard at the end of your combo.

At then end of the day the community needs to decide what a NB is and what it should offer. Right now it is a hodgepodge of skills that don't synergise which is why the class is having an identity crisis right now.

Czekoludek · May 2020

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

Saubon wrote: »

Czekoludek wrote: »

Nb damage wise is not bad in PvE, the problem is, they are completely unreliable in high lag/delay/ping situations. Too much of their power depends on LA weaving and timing. Compare it to stamplar one button rota to see what i mean by that. In PvP they are a mess.
I think many Nb mains agree that class at this point needs solid rebalance

Pretty much this, considering curent state of servers. I just hope devs will take this as an opportunity and make nbs less dependable on LA weaving. I mean, I don't want braindead rotation as stamplars have, I just want it to be reliable

Apologies for quoting you twice but I just had an idea after I replied to you.

You mention that you don't want a brain dead rotation and also not want to have to rely on Light Attacks so much. That's fair enough, no argument there. So how about an Assassination skill line that works around building up damage on one skill.
The skill in question could be Grim Focus.

Currently you get the Spectral Bow by using Light Attacks, but let's be honest. It is very clunky. Why not simply have the skill be available at all times BUT its damage increases after using an Assassination skill (assuming Veiled Strike gets swapped with Blur and moved to Assassination Line.) This way you build up your finisher by using your abilities. Making the line more synergistic. Obviously, the base damage would need to be nerfed, but with say 3 stacks max you could hit quite hard at the end of your combo.

At then end of the day the community needs to decide what a NB is and what it should offer. Right now it is a hodgepodge of skills that don't synergise which is why the class is having an identity crisis right now.

So buff for stamnb and gigantic nerf to magblade.

MindOfTheSwarm · May 2020

Czekoludek wrote: »

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

Saubon wrote: »

Czekoludek wrote: »

Nb damage wise is not bad in PvE, the problem is, they are completely unreliable in high lag/delay/ping situations. Too much of their power depends on LA weaving and timing. Compare it to stamplar one button rota to see what i mean by that. In PvP they are a mess.
I think many Nb mains agree that class at this point needs solid rebalance

Pretty much this, considering curent state of servers. I just hope devs will take this as an opportunity and make nbs less dependable on LA weaving. I mean, I don't want braindead rotation as stamplars have, I just want it to be reliable

Apologies for quoting you twice but I just had an idea after I replied to you.

You mention that you don't want a brain dead rotation and also not want to have to rely on Light Attacks so much. That's fair enough, no argument there. So how about an Assassination skill line that works around building up damage on one skill.
The skill in question could be Grim Focus.

Currently you get the Spectral Bow by using Light Attacks, but let's be honest. It is very clunky. Why not simply have the skill be available at all times BUT its damage increases after using an Assassination skill (assuming Veiled Strike gets swapped with Blur and moved to Assassination Line.) This way you build up your finisher by using your abilities. Making the line more synergistic. Obviously, the base damage would need to be nerfed, but with say 3 stacks max you could hit quite hard at the end of your combo.

At then end of the day the community needs to decide what a NB is and what it should offer. Right now it is a hodgepodge of skills that don't synergise which is why the class is having an identity crisis right now.

So buff for stamnb and gigantic nerf to magblade.

Not at all. I mean you could have the Siphoning abilities also count towards building up the damage too for the Magicka morph. Or simply have the Magicka Morph work differently so it does not need to count on the skills so much.

That being said, let us look at things from another angle here. Currently ranged skills deal comparable damage to melee abilities. Is this fair? I would argue, not at all. This is why in PVP Magicka builds are more successful, as they are safer and can deal as much burst as melee builds can without having to worry about closing the distance on an opponent. Yes, you can build around it and stick to them like glue, but people really underestimate the advantage of ranged combat. This is why you see so many Bows in PVP.

I can get on my Magblade and just stay away from everyone while melting everyone down, they can chase me sure. But 9 times out of 10 they are dead before they get close. Melee builds are riskier and should be rewarded.

But yes, I see your point from a PVE angle.

Alchimiste1 · May 2020

Actually , that change might be insane, you could play so many mind games with an on demand bow. But I feel like zos would cripple the damage

Saubon · May 2020

@MindOfTheSwarm I was talking mainly about grim focus. If you fight at range or if you have lags/high latency, you cannot use bow proc every 5th gcd. What I suggested before, it would be better to get stacks simply from using abilities in combat and out of stealth. It would be more fluid and independent on LA and ppl have to weave anyway, because it is such a big part of dps

Crash427 · May 2020

Pure ranged magblades are just a lesser version of magsorcs. Open field they do ok, but anywhere a stam toon can LOS then gap close is death.

And at primetime the travel time on my bow proc has been as long as 6 seconds.

Czekoludek · May 2020

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

Czekoludek wrote: »

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

Saubon wrote: »

Czekoludek wrote: »

Nb damage wise is not bad in PvE, the problem is, they are completely unreliable in high lag/delay/ping situations. Too much of their power depends on LA weaving and timing. Compare it to stamplar one button rota to see what i mean by that. In PvP they are a mess.
I think many Nb mains agree that class at this point needs solid rebalance

Pretty much this, considering curent state of servers. I just hope devs will take this as an opportunity and make nbs less dependable on LA weaving. I mean, I don't want braindead rotation as stamplars have, I just want it to be reliable

Apologies for quoting you twice but I just had an idea after I replied to you.

You mention that you don't want a brain dead rotation and also not want to have to rely on Light Attacks so much. That's fair enough, no argument there. So how about an Assassination skill line that works around building up damage on one skill.
The skill in question could be Grim Focus.

Currently you get the Spectral Bow by using Light Attacks, but let's be honest. It is very clunky. Why not simply have the skill be available at all times BUT its damage increases after using an Assassination skill (assuming Veiled Strike gets swapped with Blur and moved to Assassination Line.) This way you build up your finisher by using your abilities. Making the line more synergistic. Obviously, the base damage would need to be nerfed, but with say 3 stacks max you could hit quite hard at the end of your combo.

At then end of the day the community needs to decide what a NB is and what it should offer. Right now it is a hodgepodge of skills that don't synergise which is why the class is having an identity crisis right now.

So buff for stamnb and gigantic nerf to magblade.

Not at all. I mean you could have the Siphoning abilities also count towards building up the damage too for the Magicka morph. Or simply have the Magicka Morph work differently so it does not need to count on the skills so much.

That being said, let us look at things from another angle here. Currently ranged skills deal comparable damage to melee abilities. Is this fair? I would argue, not at all. This is why in PVP Magicka builds are more successful, as they are safer and can deal as much burst as melee builds can without having to worry about closing the distance on an opponent. Yes, you can build around it and stick to them like glue, but people really underestimate the advantage of ranged combat. This is why you see so many Bows in PVP.

I can get on my Magblade and just stay away from everyone while melting everyone down, they can chase me sure. But 9 times out of 10 they are dead before they get close. Melee builds are riskier and should be rewarded.

But yes, I see your point from a PVE angle.

I don't know if you are aware but stamina dominates PvP for years. And magblade wrecking everyone seems like low mmr bg to me. Unless you can provide any video of fighting good opponents

Sahidom · May 2020

Give Nightblases a unique +50% alchemical poison effects on their applying poisons to target.