Rich Lambert's stance on perfected master and maelstrom weapons

silvereyes · May 2020

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Would people be equally outraged if Perfected sets were added to vMoL and vHoF to revitalize those old trials?

You realize that content is made for players and not the other way around, right? The trials aren't going to be sad if they don't have vet players grinding them 24/7. If vet players want to do them, they will do them. If they don't want to, they shouldn't feel forced to re-grind old content.

Besides, adding new shiny drops might increase traffic to those trials for a few months or maybe a year, but it isn't going to revitalize anything. Once people get their drops, traffic will revert back to the way it was before.

If ZOS wants to increase traffic to older trials, they need to find ways to encourage new players into those trials, and provide incentives to veteran players for leading them.

mairwen85 · May 2020

HankTwo wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Would people be equally outraged if Perfected sets were added to vMoL and vHoF to revitalize those old trials? I’m sure existing pieces would not be upgraded, because that would defeat the purpose in creating the perfect version, and I doubt they even have a way to track which current pieces were obtained from vet or normal.

The current reactions are a pretty good way to make sure we never get Perfected Moondancer and Alkosh.

The comparison doesn't work perfectly, because as you said, those sets could be earned in both normal and veteran. However, with master weapons for example this isn't the case, because they could only be earned in veteran to begin with. Closest thing we have in comparison are the monster masks I'd say. So, if ZOS would decide to move current monster masks to normal and introduce perfected ones in veteran while the content stays unchanged we would arguably have the same situation as we have right now with master weapons (with maelstrom weapons its a bit more complicated as we know).

And I would be strongly against that. Eso isn't like other mmos in this regard. Horrizontal, not vertical, progression is a hallmark of this game. Over the years they actually reduced the amount of grinding you have to do (transmutation, undanted boxes, ...), and I really appreciated that. Now they try to implement new grind mechanics without new content, and thats totally new to this game.

This has been discussed to the nth degree and repeated so often that every word in your post looks foreign to me now. No matter how many times you say it, the myopia is too strong. The door is now set ajar for ZOS to give the same treatment to whatever the hell they want and completely disregard whatever tone and norm they've established the last few years, and the same false equivalences will be used to justify and excuse it, but until it impacts an individual explicitly, they can only see as far as their nose is long.

HankTwo · May 2020

mairwen85 wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Would people be equally outraged if Perfected sets were added to vMoL and vHoF to revitalize those old trials? I’m sure existing pieces would not be upgraded, because that would defeat the purpose in creating the perfect version, and I doubt they even have a way to track which current pieces were obtained from vet or normal.

The current reactions are a pretty good way to make sure we never get Perfected Moondancer and Alkosh.

The comparison doesn't work perfectly, because as you said, those sets could be earned in both normal and veteran. However, with master weapons for example this isn't the case, because they could only be earned in veteran to begin with. Closest thing we have in comparison are the monster masks I'd say. So, if ZOS would decide to move current monster masks to normal and introduce perfected ones in veteran while the content stays unchanged we would arguably have the same situation as we have right now with master weapons (with maelstrom weapons its a bit more complicated as we know).

And I would be strongly against that. Eso isn't like other mmos in this regard. Horrizontal, not vertical, progression is a hallmark of this game. Over the years they actually reduced the amount of grinding you have to do (transmutation, undanted boxes, ...), and I really appreciated that. Now they try to implement new grind mechanics without new content, and thats totally new to this game.

This has been discussed to the nth degree and repeated so often that every word in your post looks foreign to me now. No matter how many times you say it, the myopia is too strong. The door is now set ajar for ZOS to give the same treatment to whatever the hell they want and completely disregard whatever tone and norm they've established the last few years, and the same false equivalences will be used to justify and excuse it, but until it impacts an individual explicitly, they can only see as far as their nose is long.

True, I just wonder were this might end if players opposing it don't stand their ground now.

[Deleted User] · May 2020

Hello everyone,

Recently we've had to remove several posts for flaming, baiting and bashing, content that is against the Forum Rules. For further posts be sure to stay constructive and respectful to avoid thread derailment or action on one's own account.

Thank you for understanding.

Vicinia · May 2020

Haven't subbed since wrathstone and lol at buying Greymoor. Too bad heh

Amarthiul · May 2020

I love his response. Wish more game developers would talk like that.

idk · May 2020

Amarthiul wrote: »

I love his response. Wish more game developers would talk like that.

+1

Straight forward and very accurate.

Suddwrath · May 2020

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Would people be equally outraged if Perfected sets were added to vMoL and vHoF to revitalize those old trials?

I actually think that adding perfected versions to those old trials would be a great way to incentivize veterans to return to that content. The difference between this situation and the one that you proposed is that the same gear drops in veteran/normal trials (different quality, but the same gear) while vMA/vDSA weapons currently only drop in veteran mode of those arenas.

Dusk_Coven · May 2020

Youyouz06 wrote: »

Wow if this is true...those answers...

Is this guy a responsible working adult representing his profession or an in game troll? (slashlurk)
oO

He's probably talking to people at the same level they understand -- i.e., immature trolls.

You want respect? SHOW SOME RESPECT first.

shaielzafine · May 2020

They could actually be delivering in their server performance promises and improve game stability, and here they are giving a ridiculous car analogy that doesn't even work. So they want us to do vMA / vDSA when Greymoor launches when the 2020 version of ESO doesn't even run well like the 2018 version did. And they trashed things like my perfect asylum destro because the combat team has decided to put it in the nerf pile along with multiple items & monster sets. And this is how a dev responds to a member of the community?? Disgusting. This is why they're ignoring forum posts on here and banning people on their Twitch livestreams. They're pretty consistent this year from their forum mods, to the combat changes & vMA weapon changes that nobody asked for, to ignoring threads, banning paying subscribers asking questions about the state of the game, & the PMs to this player. They don't respect our time and they'd like us to buy Greymoor before they fix the game's problems with performance & crashing & abilities not working. Maybe go to vMA because lol now your weapons are just normal weapons now too, for no reason, with perfected weapons getting random questionable 2nd bonuses.

gepe87 · May 2020

I might not stop playing eso, but for sure i wont buy more zos products.
The bad experience and respect towards players with eso is enough for me.

nalimoleb14_ESO · May 2020

Thanks so much for sharing this conversation, it really is enlightening and gives clarity to the kind of people we're dealing with at Zenimax. In a way it kind of seemed like he was enjoying getting a rise out of a frustrated player who was essentially being told that the hours/days/weeks/months they spent grinding the most difficult solo content in the game with garbage RNG that, tough ***, the same weapon now drops in normal mode so there's nothing for you to show for your time wasted. And oh by the way, here's a nice carrot tied to a stick to motivate you to regrind the SAME content you already invested countless hours on for a perfected version of the weapon you already earned - same. exact. content.

I really hope Zenimax kicks the bucket - it's time for an ESO killer so that maybe Zenimax will start realizing that it actually needs its player base to survive. It's not just this slap in the face, it's lots of previous slaps in the face, and more slaps in the face yet to come. There's no incentive to invest effort into any aspect of the game except PVE questing because Zenimax has proven time and time again to be so unstable and spontaneous with their decision-making. I swear every time I take a break and come back to the game I'm weaker than I was before I left because of continuous nerfs and buffs, then nerfs again. Why is there this much instability and volatility in ESO compared to other MMOs? What changes will they make next to deliberately *** off the player base? Let's call it what it is, it's lazy and greedy decision-making.

Zenimax: Here have some nerfs, then buffs, then nerfs again, some race changes to break your build, some weapon/armor changes to break your build - whoa whoa whoa, I find your frustration offensive and mean, show us some respect if you want to be treated with respect.

LOL

Lord-Otto · May 2020

Rich is very unprofessional in his responses. You would expect more.
And he also forgets a major flaw in his argument: You can SELL the 2018 car. The original arena weapons go right into the trash, with maybe one material returned if you are lucky. We certainly don't get a part of our invested resources, the time, back.
Heh.

Inubis · May 2020

I generally don't get involved in the forums because it is too much work but I need to point something out to the people approving Rich's analogy and mention some obvious flaws. Analogies are useful even when illogical because they give you insight as to how someone else views a specific topic and its conditions. The analogy doesn't work because it is drawing a comparison to a product, it would work against say a phone, like saying people who purchase an iPhone 10 don't automatically get an iPhone 11. Obviously, that makes sense but this type of analogy doesn't really work for a game. A better analogy would be drawing a comparison with a sport so for example, if the NFL decided to change the rules for 2020 and every team that wins its division is awarded a Superbowl Trophy. Then they introduce a new Trophy called the Ultrabowl Trophy. To earn this new trophy you must once again win the Superbowl but previous winners do not get recognized for winning and if they want to be they simply must once again win the Superbowl. The question is how fair is this?

A better solution for this would have been to simply introduce a new championship called the Ultrabowl or in ESO simply making a vMA HM. Rich's analogy does provide some insight as to how he views ESO though, to him the drops are "products" the catch is you not only pay for them with money (when you initially purchase the content) but also your time. Where really the product of a game isn't the drop (that's a reward) but rather the quality of the content. When a new car is released (product) it has usually undergone some upgrades/improvements wherein the case of the vMA Content (also product) it has not been changed in any way.

That said, the only thing I would like to see moving forward in ESO is more engaging trash pulls in trials with less redundancy, more mechanics with a focus on improving the enjoyment tanks in these instances as I am tired of having to find new ones. The only place I like to see wave pools is at a waterpark.

Sephyr · May 2020

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

Youyouz06 wrote: »

Wow if this is true...those answers...

Is this guy a responsible working adult representing his profession or an in game troll? (slashlurk)
oO

He's probably talking to people at the same level they understand -- i.e., immature trolls.

You want respect? SHOW SOME RESPECT first.

I'll give him respect when he's re-earned it. When the state of the game is at an all time low with performance in Cyrodiil and has been leaking into PvE on top of having to regrind those weapons IN THIS MESS? All with kicking the can down the road continuously? I'd rather give myself a lobotomy than farm old content with the current state as it is. I don't care how shiny their lies benefits are.

hamgatan · May 2020

more importantly - what incentive is there to actually grind out the Perfected versions now?

1. have you fixed the memory leak issues with vMA that degrade performance the longer you are in there? No.
2. have you fixed ridiculous glitches such as dying on Stage 7 ten seconds after you have killed the Argonian Behemoth because of a DoT that doesn't purge despite the arena being complete? No.
3. have you fixed the inability of Lightning Staves to target a HA properly at an enemy? No.

you want people to go back and do that content - fix the content. Don't incentivise the content by dangling a carrot thinking people are going to overlook the fact it's all still broken af.

ArchMikem · May 2020

Mindcr0w wrote: »

Hmmm. So if I have a "2018" item set, and in 2020 that item set gets nerfed, it won't automatically get updated to the "2020" version? I get to keep my 2018 version?

Is it really getting nerfed directly though, or is just an even better version coming making it seem like you're getting nerfed cause it's no longer top anymore.

JinMori · May 2020

Apparently saying, basically it boils down to ego is flaming and baiting. Ok.

Well, to me this proves it even more. But fine.

You are not fooling anyone. It is ego. You think you are correct and are not gonna change mind, even when you aren't, that's ego.

And as i said before i don't even mind the thing that much, but why even bother changing it if at the end of the day it's such a marginal gain? Just to *** off the players? At least if the effect carried over to the frontbar it would be something.

But this is the last problem for me, there are a lot of things from this patch that could have been made better, lots of data brought in from very good players, most of it ignored.

Lots of changes also done for the sake of changing it seems, for example, why was necro siphon put on the gcd? This skill targeting was not improved, like at all, you basically just made the problems even worse. One example. You had 4 weeks to test this yourself, why isn't this reverted already?

Also, the comparison to a car is pretty dumb not gonna lie, to produce a car you have to use new materials, to change a few bits of data requires almost 0 effort, especially when you have already made the change, you don't have to build anything from scratch, you just have to change around a few things, for which you are already paid for, so you are not fooling anyone.

In short, you have to pay for the new car because they had to build it with new materials and completely from scratch, that is not the same for this, so the comparison is flawed at best.

silvereyes · May 2020

nalimoleb14_ESO wrote: »

I really hope Zenimax kicks the bucket

I don’t. I want them to make money and be successful. I also happen to want to play a fun game. I want them to fix performance and stop this slippery slope towards p2w grind fest. There’s a phenomenal game here if ZOS stops trying their best to destroy it

James-Wayne · May 2020

Totally agree with Rich Lambert!! Thanks for clearing that up.

John_Falstaff · May 2020

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

Youyouz06 wrote: »

Wow if this is true...those answers...

Is this guy a responsible working adult representing his profession or an in game troll? (slashlurk)
oO

He's probably talking to people at the same level they understand -- i.e., immature trolls.

You want respect? SHOW SOME RESPECT first.

There used to be times when there was any respect between players and ZOS. Those times have long gone, and it started not on players' side. They'll get respect when they'll earn it, and so far, they've nothing to respect them for neither in professional quality (game's riddled with bugs) nor as human beings (we're being constantly promised dialogue, but instead all we get is silence or outright lie, like in the case with dungeon finder fiasco).

heaven13 · May 2020

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Would people be equally outraged if Perfected sets were added to vMoL and vHoF to revitalize those old trials? I’m sure existing pieces would not be upgraded, because that would defeat the purpose in creating the perfect version, and I doubt they even have a way to track which current pieces were obtained from vet or normal.

The current reactions are a pretty good way to make sure we never get Perfected Moondancer and Alkosh.

The difference is that things like Master Architect and Alkosh can be earned in either version already. Until U26, veteran was the ONLY way to earn maelstrom weapons. There's nothing for ZoS to "keep track of" since any existing weapons were earned in vet, the same mode that will be used to obtain perfected when the patch drops.

Mindcr0w · May 2020

ArchMikem wrote: »

Mindcr0w wrote: »

Hmmm. So if I have a "2018" item set, and in 2020 that item set gets nerfed, it won't automatically get updated to the "2020" version? I get to keep my 2018 version?

Is it really getting nerfed directly though, or is just an even better version coming making it seem like you're getting nerfed cause it's no longer top anymore.

It isn't getting nerfed. That isn't the point. The point is that when gear from particular content gets nerfed without any changes to the actual content our existing items will get nerfed. 100%, no doubt. We don't get to keep the old version.

Therefore it stands to reason that if the gear from particular content gets buffed, again without any changes to the actual content, our existing items should get buffed.

I'd be fine with introducing a 10th arena round, a 3rd arena difficulty level, or a brand new arena, and sticking the buffed items in any of those. But making people run the exact same content they've already run? That's a big yikes dawg.

brandonv516 · May 2020

Don't worry. The "lurker" will have you refarming all your cp 160 (turned cp 180) loot pretty soon!

Kolzki · May 2020

The analogy would work better if it didn’t involve going back to my 2018 job to buy the 2020 model car.

JinMori · May 2020

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

TBH this doesn’t bother me much. The logic in the car analogy is valid, and I used a similar example myself before I’d heard about Rich’s comments. I recall someone else comparing it to the new model of phones released each year, and that one made sense too. Sure it would be nice if we all got free upgrades, but expecting it seems a little naive and entitled. They want us to keep doing the content, it’s not just a gift.

Things that do bother me are:
- vAS Destruction Staff becoming useless, 3 casts per proc makes it inferior to Ele Weapon or the Charged Trait (saving 2 set items)
- Master Destruction Staff being reworked so it isn’t effective for AoE/trash builds
- Blackrose Destruction Staff, the intended AoE/trash weapon, remaining useless (never ticks if using ring/pulsar as a spammable)
- Maelstrom Staff getting Spell Pen (the most useless back bar bonus), making the normal and perfect versions virtually the same for DPS (no incentive to earn the new one)
- All of the Perfected set bonuses being 80% of a standard set bonus. Just make them the same as everything else, 0.4-0.5% more DPS isn’t going to break anything

Is there a reason why every Magicka DPS arena weapon needs a major design flaw? Most of the Stamina DPS arena weapons are great.

Personally i also do not care much about this change in particular, but the analogy is incorrect.

I would actually like to see perfected version of old trial sets, but the thing that bothers me is this ego thing they have, that's what i criticized, because there are a lot of bad changes over the years not just now that were never really approached, that makes me thing that either they do not care, or they actually think they are correct, i think it's the latter at this point.

I'm not playing at the moment though, so there's that, that should tell you something.

OtarTheMad · May 2020

As I have said on here I am not a fan of using a personal conversation against anyone. This wasn't a business conversation, it was a personal message, a back and forth. Plus it is really easy for ANYONE to sound bad at any given time. I would like everyone to imagine if someone they were talking to via text, email or whatever... friend, foe, random person just took those messages and posted them on social media. I bet some things said wouldn't look great.

I also agree with what @Starlock said about large organizations, that is very true.

Also, about communication, in my opinion a lot of ZOS' communication gets missed. Whether it's on an ESO Live, or on the forums here or some other place... things can get missed mainly because threads get buried quickly and something that ZOS said could go lost or if you didn't see that ESO Live episode you'll think they never mentioned it.

I am not saying they are the best at it but they are not the worst. Just my opinion though.

Elsonso · May 2020

Mindcr0w wrote: »

I'd be fine with introducing a 10th arena round, a 3rd arena difficulty level, or a brand new arena, and sticking the buffed items in any of those. But making people run the exact same content they've already run? That's a big yikes dawg.

Yes. 10th Arena round for veteran only. That is exactly what they should have done when introducing a new top-tier reward for veteran.

mairwen85 · May 2020

James-Wayne wrote: »

Totally agree with Rich Lambert!! Thanks for clearing that up.

I don't know. The whole thing is a typical '6 vs 9' scenario. Just because [1] is right doesn't mean [2] is wrong.

Rich is 100% correct in that the new reward is a separate entity to the existing reward, and as such it must be, can only be received by clearing the content it is a reward for. However, what is actually new in this scenario is that reward appearing in normal content. The veteran reward already exists. In which case Rich is 100% wrong to tell those people that their rewards are no longer rewards for doing veteran content, and instead need to redo that to receive the rewards they've already earnt. The existing veteran rewards should have been made perfect at the data base level, and a new non perfect item introduced as a normal drop - - not retrofit the veteran reward into normal and create a replacement for it.

Rich is also 100% correct that this is not a power loss or downgrade for the existing weapons and those who have them. However, most players aren't arguing the stats, they feel their effort is devalued. What is downgraded is the time spent over multiple runs on veteran content to have put so much of it into farming what are now ultimately normal rewards. That devalues the player's investment.

Finally, Rich is absolutely right about cars. However, this is ESO where the established norm is new content = new gear, and there is a promise of horizontal progression and quarterly new content. As many have posted already, this approach with the arena weapons is a new precedent which in itself invalidates any analogy that doesn't follow the rules of that established norm. This circles us back to the point of new - - where is it in this scenario?

mav1234 · May 2020

Ackwalan wrote: »

He's right. Just because you bought a 2018 car doesn't mean you get the 2020 model when it comes out.

Traditionally is a game with levels, all gear becomes worthless when a new expansion comes out. ESO does not use traditional level system, but that doesn't mean you get the new stuff handed to you.

the key difference being in games like that... you get new gear from new content.

they don't make you go farm the old content you did already to get the new gear you need.