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Rich Lambert's stance on perfected master and maelstrom weapons

  • daemonios
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    Firstmep wrote: »
    Eso WAS a great game beacuse once you get to 160 gear, you never have to regrind it agian, not to mention transmutation.

    This directly goes aganist the core phylosophy of the game.

    This is not exactly true. Due to changes in set bonuses, the meta could and did change, so that you might have to grind new sets to have BiS gear. What never happened was having sets you own nerfed, with better versions of the same sets dropping from content you already cleared for the old one.
  • Celephantsylvius_Bornasfinmo
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    The thing that annoys me the most....it's a lazy update for grind.
    Lazy wazy.
  • L2Pissue
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    I agree. The game is about playing it, you acquire the new maelstrom staff by playing the game, and its alot easier to finish VMA now
  • Derra
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    Ackwalan wrote: »
    He's right. Just because you bought a 2018 car doesn't mean you get the 2020 model when it comes out.

    Traditionally is a game with levels, all gear becomes worthless when a new expansion comes out. ESO does not use traditional level system, but that doesn't mean you get the new stuff handed to you.

    Just that it´s not new stuff.

    ZOS nerfed the old weapons to then introduce "new ones" that reintroduce the bonus that they originally patched away.

    It´s like a car company selling you a car with 4 seats in 2018.
    Then they steal two seats during annual checkup in 2019.
    Then they reintroduce the same car you already bought with 4 seats as a "new" 2020 model and kindly tell you that you may purchase it again if you want 4 seats for the same price that you ALREADY paid in 2018.

    If that isn´t a scam i don´t know what is.
    I don´t know how someone can make such a statement with a straight face - which considering the various "heh" comments he was probably laughing his behind off about how stupid we customers are.
    Edited by Derra on May 24, 2020 6:10PM
    <Noricum>
    I live. I die. I live again.

    Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
    Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 50

  • daemonios
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    This subject has been discussed often enough. In the end it's their game, their rules. You either accept them or don't. I'm pretty annoyed right now, not just with that but with the bag of hot air that is the performance improvement plan, so I cancelled my sub in December and haven't purchased Greymoor. Maybe enough people do the same that ZOS get the message. Probably not, though.
  • Ratzkifal
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    This whole thing has been thoroughly discussed by now. I am a bit sad to see that Baloo didn't represent his/our side of the argument well, but nobody can really fault him for that.

    There are two different points of view on this:

    "Perfected MA weapons are new gear" VS "Perfected MA weapons are a buff to vMA weapons"

    The developers think that perfected vMA weapons are entirely new items but they are mistaken, even if they coded it that way, because they don't see weapons the way we do. We see these items as rewards for the content and the content did not change. Nothing about veteran maelstrom arena is different than it used to be. There is no hardmode and no justification for a higher tier gear beyond what we currently own. By completing vMA and the associated grind, we obtained the right to own veteran Maelstrom Arena weapons. We did it on the hardest difficulty, so we deserve the reward for the hardest difficulty.

    People defend this by saying that it's not different than the addition of any other new gear, and they would be right for any other MMO than ESO. Because ever since the removal of leveled content and the introduction of the CP system as a replacement for veteran ranks, ESO had become the game where gear never gets outdated.
    This has been a core value of the game to the point where the developers said that they would give us a headsup one year in advance if they are planning on raising the gear level again!
    The decision to not give us perfected replacement weapons for the vMA weapons we currently own is in the spirit of raising the gear level again. It is artificial. Opposed to that, a natural gear progression comes from introducing new content or updating older gear to a new, more desireable state.

    To put it in terms of @ZOS_RichLambert's car quote.
    This is not demanding the 2020 model to replace your 2018 model when it comes out.
    This is us taking our 2020 model to the workshop because it got into an accident and needs repair, but instead of repairing anything about it, the car repair man refuses and says that we could buy a whole new 2020 model in perfect conditions that we can buy if we don't like that our old 2020 model doesn't run as well as it used to before the accident. Then he goes to the back of the car where it says 2020 and slaps a sticker on it that say 2018 and starts referring to our 2020 model as a 2018 from there on.
    This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.
  • Parasaurolophus
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    Many players complain that it’s as if the vMA and the vDSA are very hard. Guys, these arenas are now complete with eyes closed, where even the average player has much higher dps than the players had at the time these arenas were released.
    However, yes. I have been in them so many times that now I just do not want to return to them again.
    PC/EU
  • VaranisArano
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    Many players complain that it’s as if the vMA and the vDSA are very hard. Guys, these arenas are now complete with eyes closed, where even the average player has much higher dps than the players had at the time these arenas were released.
    However, yes. I have been in them so many times that now I just do not want to return to them again.

    Its the latter. Not the difficulty of the content, but the grind.

    Many players complain as if they'd rather not farm VMA and vDSA again for X times in order to get the upgraded version of weapons, even though the content hasn't changed.
  • Ackwalan
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    Derra wrote: »
    Ackwalan wrote: »
    He's right. Just because you bought a 2018 car doesn't mean you get the 2020 model when it comes out.

    Traditionally is a game with levels, all gear becomes worthless when a new expansion comes out. ESO does not use traditional level system, but that doesn't mean you get the new stuff handed to you.

    Just that it´s not new stuff.

    ZOS nerfed the old weapons to then introduce "new ones" that reintroduce the bonus that they originally patched away.

    It´s like a car company selling you a car with 4 seats in 2018.
    Then they steal two seats during annual checkup in 2019.
    Then they reintroduce the same car you already bought with 4 seats as a "new" 2020 model and kindly tell you that you may purchase it again if you want 4 seats for the same price that you ALREADY paid in 2018.

    If that isn´t a scam i don´t know what is.
    I don´t know how someone can make such a statement with a straight face - which considering the various "heh" comments he was probably laughing his behind off about how stupid we customers are.

    Well it's more of taking out a cup holder then 2 full seats. The perfected version isn't a Jesus staff.
  • Firstmep
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    I honestly feel like this is just another move to push out endgame players, so they can have more server resources for pve quest crown shop whales.
  • virtus753
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    I can't say I know for sure who Slashlurk is, but in all seriousness I would like to thank them for tipping the scales for me on the decision to stop spending additional money on the game. To be honest, I find myself relieved to be forced to face the fact that some of the most egregious issues with ESO aren't technical.

    I just wish the person behind those statements would post them here for all forum users to see, as this is a topic that affects everyone in game. If Slashlurk is indeed a dev, all forum users deserve to see for themselves what that dev has to say rather than getting it second- or third-hand. When they promised improved communication, they promised it to all of us, not just those who happen to share a Discord with a dev.
  • John_Falstaff
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    To everyone who buys into his (flawed) car argument: sure, sure, if he's right - then let me keep old version of Asylum inferno pre-Greymoor version. :trollface: Why car dealer comes to my home and downgrades my cars all of sudden? If we're not entitled to keep pre-nerf vesion of sets, then we should get positive updates too. We did our grind for vMA weapons, so we better have vMA weapons after new chapter, not nMA weapons. Or release new car at higher price (update vMA to higher difficulty).
  • HankTwo
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    @Ratzkifal

    The discussion between Baloo and Rich was right after the release of the update 26 combat preview, so he didn't have much time to think about how to make a strong argument and there wasn't any consensus at the time anyway. That being said, he agrees, that he could have made a much better argument in hindsight.
    PC EU
    Stam DK, Magden, Magplar, Stamcro, Hybrid Sorc, Magblade & Mag DK
  • Derra
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    Ackwalan wrote: »
    Derra wrote: »
    Ackwalan wrote: »
    He's right. Just because you bought a 2018 car doesn't mean you get the 2020 model when it comes out.

    Traditionally is a game with levels, all gear becomes worthless when a new expansion comes out. ESO does not use traditional level system, but that doesn't mean you get the new stuff handed to you.

    Just that it´s not new stuff.

    ZOS nerfed the old weapons to then introduce "new ones" that reintroduce the bonus that they originally patched away.

    It´s like a car company selling you a car with 4 seats in 2018.
    Then they steal two seats during annual checkup in 2019.
    Then they reintroduce the same car you already bought with 4 seats as a "new" 2020 model and kindly tell you that you may purchase it again if you want 4 seats for the same price that you ALREADY paid in 2018.

    If that isn´t a scam i don´t know what is.
    I don´t know how someone can make such a statement with a straight face - which considering the various "heh" comments he was probably laughing his behind off about how stupid we customers are.

    Well it's more of taking out a cup holder then 2 full seats. The perfected version isn't a Jesus staff.

    Cup holder makes it seem irrelevant - which it is not.
    It´s worth 80% of a setbonus

    Considering 5p bonuses are aimed to be between 2 and 3 normal bonuses (and monstersets/ability altering weapons should be comparable in power to those) i could settle for taking 1 seat away.
    That would roughly be comparable in terms of value taken away.
    Ability altering bonus = 2.5 bonuses worth
    Statbonus = 0.8 bonuses worth
    Removes roughly 1/4 of the items value.

    So yeah. Just replace 2 seats with 1 seat.
    That´s roughly what it translates to in terms of power when we look at zos design goals.
    Edited by Derra on May 24, 2020 6:50PM
    <Noricum>
    I live. I die. I live again.

    Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
    Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 50

  • Elsonso
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    Jacozilla wrote: »
    That car logic would make sense if this was a brand new arena and people wanted the weapons from that for free. But this is like taking that 2018 car that you own, rebadging it as 2020, then saying guys you can't just have the 2020 for free when its actually the 2018 you already owned the whole time.

    Agreed. But an even better reply to the analogy needs to include that for many of us, we once owned the original VMA weapons pre-original nerf.

    So using this car analogy, it would be I had 2018 model w/600 hp engine, had the car forcibly confiscated and given back a 2019 model with 400hp engine, then had that same 2019 model with 400hp engine rebadged as "2020" model and told I need to rebuy my own car with weaker features than the 2018 I originally owned.

    We love our car analogies in here! :smile:

    Yours is a little incorrect. When they removed the enchantments, they added in a set bonus. We can quibble about whether the set bonus is the same as the enchantment, but with the new set bonus model, you can add your own enchantment on top of the set bonus.

    Given that, it is like you have a 2018 model with a 600 hp engine, which they forcibly confiscated and replace with a 2019 model that also has a 600 hp engine, but includes provisions for a turbo charger. Then, in 2020, they introduce a new car that has an 800 hp engine and provisions for a turbo charger.

    Still not an accurate analogy, but a little closer.

    :smile:
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  • Derra
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    Elsonso wrote: »
    Jacozilla wrote: »
    That car logic would make sense if this was a brand new arena and people wanted the weapons from that for free. But this is like taking that 2018 car that you own, rebadging it as 2020, then saying guys you can't just have the 2020 for free when its actually the 2018 you already owned the whole time.

    Agreed. But an even better reply to the analogy needs to include that for many of us, we once owned the original VMA weapons pre-original nerf.

    So using this car analogy, it would be I had 2018 model w/600 hp engine, had the car forcibly confiscated and given back a 2019 model with 400hp engine, then had that same 2019 model with 400hp engine rebadged as "2020" model and told I need to rebuy my own car with weaker features than the 2018 I originally owned.

    We love our car analogies in here! :smile:

    Yours is a little incorrect. When they removed the enchantments, they added in a set bonus. We can quibble about whether the set bonus is the same as the enchantment, but with the new set bonus model, you can add your own enchantment on top of the set bonus.

    Given that, it is like you have a 2018 model with a 600 hp engine, which they forcibly confiscated and replace with a 2019 model that also has a 600 hp engine, but includes provisions for a turbo charger. Then, in 2020, they introduce a new car that has an 800 hp engine and provisions for a turbo charger.

    Still not an accurate analogy, but a little closer.

    :smile:

    I mean - it could also be worse.

    Atleast most weapons don´t get completely trashed like asylum perfected destro and asylum bow.

    But it when it comes to my freetime i have this approach:
    nLEyf4O.jpg
    Edited by Derra on May 24, 2020 7:02PM
    <Noricum>
    I live. I die. I live again.

    Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
    Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 50

  • HankTwo
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    @virtus753

    Just check my post #10 on the first page or check out the official eso discord (https://discord.gg/elderscrollsonline) yourself to confirm Slashlurk's identity. I definitely agree, that the devs should have given the players an official statement, and the fact that they didn't was the main reason why I posted this here.
    PC EU
    Stam DK, Magden, Magplar, Stamcro, Hybrid Sorc, Magblade & Mag DK
  • HowlKimchi
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    This is what happens when you introduce a semblance of vertical progression in a casual horizontal progression game.
    previously @HaruKamui but I outgrew my weeb phase (probably)

    PC/NA - EP - Howl Bragi/Howl Kimchi
  • Starlock
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    Firstmep wrote: »
    I honestly feel like this is just another move to push out endgame players, so they can have more server resources for pve quest crown shop whales.

    Unlikely. "PvE quest crown shop whales" are "endgame" (whatever that means, frankly) players too.

    It's more likely that this centers around grind-game (what some people call "endgame" it seems) design philosophy that underpins much of this game as a whole. In order to create player engagement (translation: revenue), many games-as-service (translation: play-to-pay) titles incorporate grind-game to encourage habitual patterns of gameplay (translation: addiction). This well-known business practice used to be contained to misleadingly titled "free to play" games, particularly mobile games, but it has unfortunately infested the console gaming mainstream as well over the course of the last generation.

    When grind-game is coupled with appropriate bait that appeals to a certain type of customer, they inevitably pursue it. Sure, the customer may grumble, but the psychological pressure will often override all that. For some players, it's the pressure to be competitive and have best-in-slot gear. They'll grind it out - they can't stand being second fiddle. For other players, it's the pressure to simply collect things. They'll grind out collections for things they don't even use - they can't stand something being missing from their horde. And so on. Every customer has their hook. This move is a hook, I wager. Or it could just be a misguided decision. I don't know. But looking at the history of this game over the past couple years, I'd bet hook.

  • virtus753
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    HankTwo wrote: »
    @virtus753

    Just check my post #10 on the first page or check out the official eso discord (https://discord.gg/elderscrollsonline) yourself to confirm Slashlurk's identity. I definitely agree, that the devs should have given the players an official statement, and the fact that they didn't was the main reason why I posted this here.

    Yes, and thank you very much for posting it!
  • Vevvev
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    To everyone who buys into his (flawed) car argument: sure, sure, if he's right - then let me keep old version of Asylum inferno pre-Greymoor version. :trollface: Why car dealer comes to my home and downgrades my cars all of sudden? If we're not entitled to keep pre-nerf vesion of sets, then we should get positive updates too. We did our grind for vMA weapons, so we better have vMA weapons after new chapter, not nMA weapons. Or release new car at higher price (update vMA to higher difficulty).

    I'd also like to keep my old vampire to. The new 2020 version isn't my style.
    Edited by Vevvev on May 24, 2020 7:40PM
    PC NA - Ceyanna Ashton - Breton Vampire MagDK
  • mairwen85
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    Vevvev wrote: »
    To everyone who buys into his (flawed) car argument: sure, sure, if he's right - then let me keep old version of Asylum inferno pre-Greymoor version. :trollface: Why car dealer comes to my home and downgrades my cars all of sudden? If we're not entitled to keep pre-nerf vesion of sets, then we should get positive updates too. We did our grind for vMA weapons, so we better have vMA weapons after new chapter, not nMA weapons. Or release new car at higher price (update vMA to higher difficulty).

    I'd also like to keep my old vampire vampire to. The new 2020 version isn't my style.

    And original Earthgore, I haven't done BRF since the nerf, so I never refarmed that set.
  • mairwen85
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    HankTwo wrote: »
    @Ratzkifal

    The discussion between Baloo and Rich was right after the release of the update 26 combat preview, so he didn't have much time to think about how to make a strong argument and there wasn't any consensus at the time anyway. That being said, he agrees, that he could have made a much better argument in hindsight.

    Kudos to Baloo regardless, he got more feedback than 4 threads totaling over 100 pages of players asking for feedback over the course of a month.

    Only one word sums it up really:
    heh
    Edited by mairwen85 on May 24, 2020 7:41PM
  • idk
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    I agree with Rich that we have not earned the new weapons as they have never been in-game before. We earned the existing weapons that will still be available.

    We asked for perfected vMA and Master weapons and I am glad we got them. I will gladly do the time to get the new weapons.
  • Suddwrath
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    There really isn't a valid excuse for them to not be automatically upgraded:
    1) The content remains the same. vMA/vDSA are not changing in regards to difficulty, mechanics, etc.
    2) The criteria remains the same for current vMA/vDSA weapons and the future perfected versions (beat the arenas on vet).
    3) The car model analogy that @ZOS_RichLambert made in Discord simply does not make sense. No, owning a 2018 model of a car does not mean that you are entitled to automatically upgrading to a 2020 model. But at the same time the dealership isn't coming to my house, taking out the engine, and replacing it with a smaller and weaker engine. When sets are changed in the game it doesn't leave behind a new and old version. You won't see someone in the game who has a 2018 version of the Bloodspawn set and someone else who has the 2020 version of Bloodspawn. The sets get changed across the board regardless of when they were obtained.
    4) The new perfected version of the weapons are not "new" content. vMA/vDSA weapons already existed in the game from beating those arenas on vet, which means the "new" weapons are the imperfected versions since those were not previously available in the normal arenas. Since the perfected versions are not new, the current vMA/vDSA weapons should be automatically adjusted just like every other set which undergoes balance adjustments.
  • Firstmep
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    idk wrote: »
    I agree with Rich that we have not earned the new weapons as they have never been in-game before. We earned the existing weapons that will still be available.

    We asked for perfected vMA and Master weapons and I am glad we got them. I will gladly do the time to get the new weapons.

    Not really, VMA weapons had 1pc bonuses before, and were removed.

    Now bonuses are added back to these weapons, and come from the very difficulty/mode we have already farmed.

    I wonder how people would feel if they removed the stat bonuses from Perf Lokke for example, and than later added them back, but not to existing items, so you would have to re-farm them

    Beacuse thats basically whats happening, and thats why so many people are upset.

    Or imagine ZOS decided to remove 50% of your gold from your account, and told you to regrind it.
  • tmbrinks
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    For everybody saying they "nerfed" the original weapons (and I used to say this too)

    They changed it from an enchantment, to a set bonus.

    Once they made it a set bonus, and you could re-enchant the staff with a berserker glyph. IT WAS A BUFF!!! to the damage that was done while equipping the staff/bow

    So this analogy of them "removing two seats" is patently false and incorrect.

    Am I upset that they won't be upgraded automatically, yeah. But to use a false argument isn't fair either.
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  • Firstmep
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    tmbrinks wrote: »
    For everybody saying they "nerfed" the original weapons (and I used to say this too)

    They changed it from an enchantment, to a set bonus.

    Once they made it a set bonus, and you could re-enchant the staff with a berserker glyph. IT WAS A BUFF!!! to the damage that was done while equipping the staff/bow

    So this analogy of them "removing two seats" is patently false and incorrect.

    Am I upset that they won't be upgraded automatically, yeah. But to use a false argument isn't fair either.

    Yet BRP weapons were given those set bonuses from the get-go, and you could enchant them. Hmmm
  • MartiniDaniels
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    Firstmep wrote: »
    tmbrinks wrote: »
    For everybody saying they "nerfed" the original weapons (and I used to say this too)

    They changed it from an enchantment, to a set bonus.

    Once they made it a set bonus, and you could re-enchant the staff with a berserker glyph. IT WAS A BUFF!!! to the damage that was done while equipping the staff/bow

    So this analogy of them "removing two seats" is patently false and incorrect.

    Am I upset that they won't be upgraded automatically, yeah. But to use a false argument isn't fair either.

    Yet BRP weapons were given those set bonuses from the get-go, and you could enchant them. Hmmm

    Because they needed to sell Murkmire.

    And now they want to sell Orsinium (btw, double drop event is soon) to those who were farming VMA when they had ESO+.
  • HankTwo
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    When it comes to blackrose items, the correct analogy would be to make the current perfected weapons drop in normal mode and then release an even better 'super-perfected' version in veteran after the patch.
    PC EU
    Stam DK, Magden, Magplar, Stamcro, Hybrid Sorc, Magblade & Mag DK
This discussion has been closed.