Ways they can make the Vampire Viable for every kind of build and give the players what they want.

LadyNalcarya · May 2020

Other

Thevampirenight wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

Thevampirenight wrote: »

Vampiric Drain Stage 1 and above
Mist Form Stage 2 and above
Eviscerate stage 3, and above.
Hypnotic Gaze Stage 4 only unless stage five in Blood Scion Form.

Issue with this list is ZOS fully intends Eviscerate to become the new "Vampire Drain". Reason all vampiric drain experience goes to it instead of vampiric drain as you'd expect it to, but it'd be nice to have both skills active at stage 1. Also in Oblivion and Skyrim the vampire seduction spell was a stage 2 active ability so for the sake of consistency should take the #2 spot, mistform should take the #3 spot, and Blood Frenzy takes #4 since its the most bestial and rabid.

I edited it around a bit making it stage four for Eviscerate. The idea of a very viable vampire for builds and stuff. Some players not liking my idea for vampirism seem to not like it because of this ability being mandatory or something. (( some people chase meta way to much )). If that is case then you should have to be at full vampiric power to use it fully in humanoid form or be in Blood Scion form. If its that good then it should require a higher draw back in order to use. Vampirism should be powerful but it should have trade offs that requires you to build with it. But there does need to be viability for any and all Builds out there too.

The one thing I do agree with in the various posts is that there has to be a good enough draw back so everyone doesn't go for being a vampire like they do live but not everyone would drop it either and would actually play with the new vampirsm. So there has to be a balancing act.

Well, most vampires are only vampires because of extra regen. So in any case most people would drop it, because they just want extra stats and don't want to commit to the playstyle. I do think that current version needs some work, but imo its very important that they want to make vampirism a meaningful choice.

Thevampirenight · May 2020

Yes this is how it should be done and they should make it so these ideas are actually added to the Game.

robertthebard wrote: »

Thevampirenight wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

Thevampirenight wrote: »

Vampiric Drain Stage 1 and above
Mist Form Stage 2 and above
Eviscerate stage 3, and above.
Hypnotic Gaze Stage 4 only unless stage five in Blood Scion Form.

Issue with this list is ZOS fully intends Eviscerate to become the new "Vampire Drain". Reason all vampiric drain experience goes to it instead of vampiric drain as you'd expect it to, but it'd be nice to have both skills active at stage 1. Also in Oblivion and Skyrim the vampire seduction spell was a stage 2 active ability so for the sake of consistency should take the #2 spot, mistform should take the #3 spot, and Blood Frenzy takes #4 since its the most bestial and rabid.

I edited it around a bit making it stage four for Eviscerate. The idea of a very viable vampire for builds and stuff. Some players not liking my idea for vampirism seem to not like it because of this ability being mandatory or something some people chase meta way to much . If its the case then you should have to be at full vampiric power to use it fully in humanoid form or be in Blood Scion form. If its that good then it should require a higher draw back in order to use. Vampirism should be powerful but it should have trade offs that requires you to build with it and I do agree with players on that. But there does need to be viability for any Builds out there too.

The one thing I do agree with in the various posts is that there has to be a good enough draw back so everyone doesn't go for being a vampire like they do live but not everyone would drop it either and would actually play with the new vampirsm. So there has to be a balancing act.

Why does there need to be viability for any builds?

I can play the DB storyline on any character I choose. I can invest in the skill line, and have a good time with it. But, if I want to squeeze every bit of value out of it, NB is the best choice, as far as I'm concerned, because I can use Cloak to disappear, and escape if I have to, or use it to get position on an NPC for using the Blade of Woe. Is it mandatory? No, but it is ideal.

Because if its garbage and just for very few niche cases then people will treat it like garbage. People will likely be kicked out of group content because they are a vampire. What they said is we would get the greatest hits of vampirism. The Greatest hits would mean they give all those hits seen in all the playable vampires from the previous Single Player games. Meaning viability for all kinds of builds and that is what I expect when it comes to Greatest Hits
Daggerfall Vampires each had unique abilties depending on the clan. Some had healing abilties some had shielding abilties. Some had Teleportation abilties. Some had the ability to cure others of Paralysis apparently. Several unique variations, then you had Morrowind, which had unique buffs for mages, thieves and warriors.
Oblivion was more increasing magic and also buffs to strength and agility and sneaking.
Skyrim Illusion was buffed.

So why is it important? Because we should be getting the greatest hits of Vampirism like they said we would and the way they are doing it they are not even doing that.
How they do it is they give boons for the following to show off the greatest hits of vampirism seen in Tes.
Boons to Magicka,
Boons to Stamina
Boons to Tanking.
Boons to Support
Boons to Healing
Vampirism's greatest hits would benefit all types of builds.
However like I said there does need to be a heavy trade off for the usefulness that makes it so people will have to choose and play around with it a little to see if its worth it. It also needs to have enough of a draw back so players won't just go all vampire so a balancing act.

robertthebard · May 2020

Other

Thevampirenight wrote: »

robertthebard wrote: »

Thevampirenight wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

Thevampirenight wrote: »

Vampiric Drain Stage 1 and above
Mist Form Stage 2 and above
Eviscerate stage 3, and above.
Hypnotic Gaze Stage 4 only unless stage five in Blood Scion Form.

Issue with this list is ZOS fully intends Eviscerate to become the new "Vampire Drain". Reason all vampiric drain experience goes to it instead of vampiric drain as you'd expect it to, but it'd be nice to have both skills active at stage 1. Also in Oblivion and Skyrim the vampire seduction spell was a stage 2 active ability so for the sake of consistency should take the #2 spot, mistform should take the #3 spot, and Blood Frenzy takes #4 since its the most bestial and rabid.

I edited it around a bit making it stage four for Eviscerate. The idea of a very viable vampire for builds and stuff. Some players not liking my idea for vampirism seem to not like it because of this ability being mandatory or something some people chase meta way to much . If its the case then you should have to be at full vampiric power to use it fully in humanoid form or be in Blood Scion form. If its that good then it should require a higher draw back in order to use. Vampirism should be powerful but it should have trade offs that requires you to build with it and I do agree with players on that. But there does need to be viability for any Builds out there too.

The one thing I do agree with in the various posts is that there has to be a good enough draw back so everyone doesn't go for being a vampire like they do live but not everyone would drop it either and would actually play with the new vampirsm. So there has to be a balancing act.

Why does there need to be viability for any builds?

I can play the DB storyline on any character I choose. I can invest in the skill line, and have a good time with it. But, if I want to squeeze every bit of value out of it, NB is the best choice, as far as I'm concerned, because I can use Cloak to disappear, and escape if I have to, or use it to get position on an NPC for using the Blade of Woe. Is it mandatory? No, but it is ideal.

Because if its garbage and just for very few niche cases then people will treat it like garbage. People will likely be kicked out of group content because they are a vampire. What they said is we would get the greatest hits of vampirism. The Greatest hits would mean they give all those hits seen in all the playable vampires from the previous Single Player games. Meaning viability for all kinds of builds and that is what I expect when it comes to Greatest Hits
Daggerfall Vampires each had unique abilties depending on the clan. Some had healing abilties some had shielding abilties. Some had Teleportation abilties. Some had the ability to cure others of Paralysis apparently. Several unique variations, then you had Morrowind, which had unique buffs for mages, thieves and warriors.
Oblivion was more increasing magic and also buffs to strength and agility and sneaking.
Skyrim Illusion was buffed.

So why is it important? Because we should be getting the greatest hits of Vampirism like they said we would and the way they are doing it they are not even doing that.
How they do it is they give boons for the following to show off the greatest hits of vampirism seen in Tes.
Boons to Magicka,
Boons to Stamina
Boons to Tanking.
Boons too Support
Boons to Healing
Vampirism's greatest hits would benefit all types of builds.

So it's because you don't want to fully commit? Maybe you prefer the current iteration, where it's "I'm a vampire in name only, check out my passives"? There should be no direct tie-ins, as far as the classes go, to the SP games. If that's what you're looking for, how many rage threads do you have about the existence of the classes we have now, because they're not in Oblivion or Skyrim? For better or worse, this is it's own beast, and it should reflect that, and largely, it does. Looking at the poll, I see that it's not going well.

LadyNalcarya · May 2020

Other

Thevampirenight wrote: »

robertthebard wrote: »

Thevampirenight wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

Thevampirenight wrote: »

Vampiric Drain Stage 1 and above
Mist Form Stage 2 and above
Eviscerate stage 3, and above.
Hypnotic Gaze Stage 4 only unless stage five in Blood Scion Form.

Issue with this list is ZOS fully intends Eviscerate to become the new "Vampire Drain". Reason all vampiric drain experience goes to it instead of vampiric drain as you'd expect it to, but it'd be nice to have both skills active at stage 1. Also in Oblivion and Skyrim the vampire seduction spell was a stage 2 active ability so for the sake of consistency should take the #2 spot, mistform should take the #3 spot, and Blood Frenzy takes #4 since its the most bestial and rabid.

I edited it around a bit making it stage four for Eviscerate. The idea of a very viable vampire for builds and stuff. Some players not liking my idea for vampirism seem to not like it because of this ability being mandatory or something some people chase meta way to much . If its the case then you should have to be at full vampiric power to use it fully in humanoid form or be in Blood Scion form. If its that good then it should require a higher draw back in order to use. Vampirism should be powerful but it should have trade offs that requires you to build with it and I do agree with players on that. But there does need to be viability for any Builds out there too.

The one thing I do agree with in the various posts is that there has to be a good enough draw back so everyone doesn't go for being a vampire like they do live but not everyone would drop it either and would actually play with the new vampirsm. So there has to be a balancing act.

Why does there need to be viability for any builds?

I can play the DB storyline on any character I choose. I can invest in the skill line, and have a good time with it. But, if I want to squeeze every bit of value out of it, NB is the best choice, as far as I'm concerned, because I can use Cloak to disappear, and escape if I have to, or use it to get position on an NPC for using the Blade of Woe. Is it mandatory? No, but it is ideal.

Because if its garbage and just for very few niche cases then people will treat it like garbage. People will likely be kicked out of group content because they are a vampire. What they said is we would get the greatest hits of vampirism. The Greatest hits would mean they give all those hits seen in all the playable vampires from the previous Single Player games. Meaning viability for all kinds of builds and that is what I expect when it comes to Greatest Hits
Daggerfall Vampires each had unique abilties depending on the clan. Some had healing abilties some had shielding abilties. Some had Teleportation abilties. Some had the ability to cure others of Paralysis apparently. Several unique variations, then you had Morrowind, which had it for mages, thieves and warriors.
Oblivion was more increasing magic and also buffs to strength and agility and sneaking.
Skyrim Illusion was buffed.

So why is it important? Because we should be getting the greatest hits of Vampirism like they said we would and the way they are doing it they are not even doing that.
How they do it is they give boons for the following to show off the greatest hits of vampirism seen in Tes.
Boons to Magicka,
Boons to Stamina
Boons to Tanking.
Boons too Support
Boons to Healing
Vampirism's greatest hits would benefit all types of builds.

The problem is that you're saying that people chase meta too much, but what you're proposing would 100% make vampires meta and you wouldnt be able to compete as a non-vamp. If so many people become vamps just for recovery, epic bonuses to everything would make anything else absolutely non-viable.
Other TES titles are single-player games so the balance is not so important. This type of "power fantasy" just doesn't work in multiplayer.
There's nothing wrong with some builds being niche. As for kicking, you are unlikely to be kicked as long as you're pulling your own weight. And if we're talking about potentially dangerous stuff in Greymoor, Thrassian Stranglers will likely cause more problems with pugs, since pug dds will see the parses and might try to replicate what their favorite youtuber did, all while standing in a fire circle.

Thevampirenight · May 2020

Yes this is how it should be done and they should make it so these ideas are actually added to the Game.

robertthebard wrote: »

Thevampirenight wrote: »

robertthebard wrote: »

Thevampirenight wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

Thevampirenight wrote: »

Vampiric Drain Stage 1 and above
Mist Form Stage 2 and above
Eviscerate stage 3, and above.
Hypnotic Gaze Stage 4 only unless stage five in Blood Scion Form.

Issue with this list is ZOS fully intends Eviscerate to become the new "Vampire Drain". Reason all vampiric drain experience goes to it instead of vampiric drain as you'd expect it to, but it'd be nice to have both skills active at stage 1. Also in Oblivion and Skyrim the vampire seduction spell was a stage 2 active ability so for the sake of consistency should take the #2 spot, mistform should take the #3 spot, and Blood Frenzy takes #4 since its the most bestial and rabid.

I edited it around a bit making it stage four for Eviscerate. The idea of a very viable vampire for builds and stuff. Some players not liking my idea for vampirism seem to not like it because of this ability being mandatory or something some people chase meta way to much . If its the case then you should have to be at full vampiric power to use it fully in humanoid form or be in Blood Scion form. If its that good then it should require a higher draw back in order to use. Vampirism should be powerful but it should have trade offs that requires you to build with it and I do agree with players on that. But there does need to be viability for any Builds out there too.

The one thing I do agree with in the various posts is that there has to be a good enough draw back so everyone doesn't go for being a vampire like they do live but not everyone would drop it either and would actually play with the new vampirsm. So there has to be a balancing act.

Why does there need to be viability for any builds?

I can play the DB storyline on any character I choose. I can invest in the skill line, and have a good time with it. But, if I want to squeeze every bit of value out of it, NB is the best choice, as far as I'm concerned, because I can use Cloak to disappear, and escape if I have to, or use it to get position on an NPC for using the Blade of Woe. Is it mandatory? No, but it is ideal.

Because if its garbage and just for very few niche cases then people will treat it like garbage. People will likely be kicked out of group content because they are a vampire. What they said is we would get the greatest hits of vampirism. The Greatest hits would mean they give all those hits seen in all the playable vampires from the previous Single Player games. Meaning viability for all kinds of builds and that is what I expect when it comes to Greatest Hits
Daggerfall Vampires each had unique abilties depending on the clan. Some had healing abilties some had shielding abilties. Some had Teleportation abilties. Some had the ability to cure others of Paralysis apparently. Several unique variations, then you had Morrowind, which had unique buffs for mages, thieves and warriors.
Oblivion was more increasing magic and also buffs to strength and agility and sneaking.
Skyrim Illusion was buffed.

So why is it important? Because we should be getting the greatest hits of Vampirism like they said we would and the way they are doing it they are not even doing that.
How they do it is they give boons for the following to show off the greatest hits of vampirism seen in Tes.
Boons to Magicka,
Boons to Stamina
Boons to Tanking.
Boons too Support
Boons to Healing
Vampirism's greatest hits would benefit all types of builds.

So it's because you don't want to fully commit? Maybe you prefer the current iteration, where it's "I'm a vampire in name only, check out my passives"? There should be no direct tie-ins, as far as the classes go, to the SP games. If that's what you're looking for, how many rage threads do you have about the existence of the classes we have now, because they're not in Oblivion or Skyrim? For better or worse, this is it's own beast, and it should reflect that, and largely, it does. Looking at the poll, I see that it's not going well.

Nope i do want to commit and I want to feel like a vampire doing it.
I do play as a vampire when I do my characters. Though I know I will have to live with whatever they give us. But I expected a lot better then what it was.
There is some very good stuff in what they are doing. However its lacking and I really do think Blood Frenzy is a joke its a bad ability even if its good. Because its a Suicidal Frenzy ability, its not Blood Frenzy its Suicidal Frenzy. Its great for Kamikaze style attacks but that isn't what a Vampire is and that bugs me. That is why my post dealt with what they could do with this ability the most that was the intent. I just added the other stuff because might as well touch on it because I wanted to see options for every ability though the intent behind the post was the Regen and the Blood Frenzy garbage that goes against everything a vampire should be.

The thing is I do want options for all my vampiric characters. I want options for a Vampiric Blood Healer, I want options to turn into bats and bat port. I want options for a stamina vampire build. To go with my Stamcro, I want all kinds of things with vampire and variations for different vampiric styles. I want an overhaul that makes it feel like a true vampire experience with variation. Vampire Kamikaze isn't what I call a true vampire Experience.

zergbase_ESO · May 2020

No Vampires should be kept the way they are releasing them for Greymoor.

So happy for this change. Being vampire was just a silly passive now it is something. This nerf/buff was needed because everyone in their mother in pve was vamping up. I recall back then as dps requiring vamp to be in any sort of guild that did trials competently.

Thevampirenight · May 2020

Yes this is how it should be done and they should make it so these ideas are actually added to the Game.

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

Thevampirenight wrote: »

robertthebard wrote: »

Thevampirenight wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

Thevampirenight wrote: »

Vampiric Drain Stage 1 and above
Mist Form Stage 2 and above
Eviscerate stage 3, and above.
Hypnotic Gaze Stage 4 only unless stage five in Blood Scion Form.

Issue with this list is ZOS fully intends Eviscerate to become the new "Vampire Drain". Reason all vampiric drain experience goes to it instead of vampiric drain as you'd expect it to, but it'd be nice to have both skills active at stage 1. Also in Oblivion and Skyrim the vampire seduction spell was a stage 2 active ability so for the sake of consistency should take the #2 spot, mistform should take the #3 spot, and Blood Frenzy takes #4 since its the most bestial and rabid.

I edited it around a bit making it stage four for Eviscerate. The idea of a very viable vampire for builds and stuff. Some players not liking my idea for vampirism seem to not like it because of this ability being mandatory or something some people chase meta way to much . If its the case then you should have to be at full vampiric power to use it fully in humanoid form or be in Blood Scion form. If its that good then it should require a higher draw back in order to use. Vampirism should be powerful but it should have trade offs that requires you to build with it and I do agree with players on that. But there does need to be viability for any Builds out there too.

The one thing I do agree with in the various posts is that there has to be a good enough draw back so everyone doesn't go for being a vampire like they do live but not everyone would drop it either and would actually play with the new vampirsm. So there has to be a balancing act.

Why does there need to be viability for any builds?

I can play the DB storyline on any character I choose. I can invest in the skill line, and have a good time with it. But, if I want to squeeze every bit of value out of it, NB is the best choice, as far as I'm concerned, because I can use Cloak to disappear, and escape if I have to, or use it to get position on an NPC for using the Blade of Woe. Is it mandatory? No, but it is ideal.

Because if its garbage and just for very few niche cases then people will treat it like garbage. People will likely be kicked out of group content because they are a vampire. What they said is we would get the greatest hits of vampirism. The Greatest hits would mean they give all those hits seen in all the playable vampires from the previous Single Player games. Meaning viability for all kinds of builds and that is what I expect when it comes to Greatest Hits
Daggerfall Vampires each had unique abilties depending on the clan. Some had healing abilties some had shielding abilties. Some had Teleportation abilties. Some had the ability to cure others of Paralysis apparently. Several unique variations, then you had Morrowind, which had it for mages, thieves and warriors.
Oblivion was more increasing magic and also buffs to strength and agility and sneaking.
Skyrim Illusion was buffed.

So why is it important? Because we should be getting the greatest hits of Vampirism like they said we would and the way they are doing it they are not even doing that.
How they do it is they give boons for the following to show off the greatest hits of vampirism seen in Tes.
Boons to Magicka,
Boons to Stamina
Boons to Tanking.
Boons too Support
Boons to Healing
Vampirism's greatest hits would benefit all types of builds.

The problem is that you're saying that people chase meta too much, but what you're proposing would 100% make vampires meta and you wouldnt be able to compete as a non-vamp. If so many people become vamps just for recovery, epic bonuses to everything would make anything else absolutely non-viable.
Other TES titles are single-player games so the balance is not so important. This type of "power fantasy" just doesn't work in multiplayer.
There's nothing wrong with some builds being niche. As for kicking, you are unlikely to be kicked as long as you're pulling your own weight. And if we're talking about potentially dangerous stuff in Greymoor, Thrassian Stranglers will likely cause more problems with pugs, since pug dds will see the parses and might try to replicate what their favorite youtuber did, all while standing in a fire circle.

Yes and you wonder why Zenimax keeps nerfing everything they keep track of what people are using and if its something they don't like they get the hammer. If they stopped focusing on being best in slot and maybe second best or third best or even forth best we wouldn't get all these sledge hammer nerfs in the game. Most of them have to do with breaking up stagnancy. Like for example most people and their mother using blood spawn or whatever set because its bis. That is meta and that is why they likely target it.

So yes I do think chasing meta has led to some of the changes that are making people angry. Also I'm not worried about being kicked out from a group I'm speaking out for the other players that are worried about this being a thing.
The point is you don't need to be Best In Slot to be Viable and that is what ruins cool and unique things and unique gameplay because players are chasing a meta that ends up getting copied at times and you wonder why Bloodspawn got and other sets got nerfed? All the cool stuff gets nerfed and why? Because people have to ruin it by everyone basically running it. That is why we can't have nice things

Had people not chased Vampire for Stam/magicka recovery passive for this must have meta chasing. They might have even kept it in with this rework.
That is how i feel.

They use spreedsheet balancing and they use that to determine what is overpeforming and that is what they nerf. If to many have this then it must be toned down.

But that does not mean they can't make a very viable Vampire active playstyle. They don't need to make garbage. Players expect better and that is what this thread is about. Making it a active playstyle that synergizes with your non vampiric builds if you choose. My hope is they take some of these ideas from myself and others here in the thread and see what they can add in to make it better. Now I don't expect them to add all the ideas but I do hope for them to take feed back from all this or from the pts forums or from ideas from other peoples threads and make it better then what it is coming with Greymoor. I do think the Vampire Skill line is owed that much given this very chapter is about vampires.

XomRhoK · May 2020

Yes it should be done like this but in another way(Post your idea)

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

XomRhoK wrote: »

craybest wrote: »

Why should it be viable for every playstyle? Werewolf isn't viable for every playstyle either.
I think having them work for a specific one is the correct approach. They could widen the range of viability a bit maybe, but not to all of it.

mairwen85 wrote: »

I don't agree they should be 'viable for every kind of build'; vampirism should be a choice, a meaningful choice with benefit and sacrifice, and you should be required to invest in it to be effective. Whether the greymoor implementation achieves that is yet to be seen, but it certainly looks and feels like a discerned effort to make it so.

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

I don't agree they should be 'viable for every kind of build'; vampirism should be a choice, a meaningful choice with benefit and sacrifice, and you should be required to invest in it to be effective. Whether the greymoor implementation achieves that is yet to be seen, but it certainly looks and feels like a discerned effort to make it so.

Yeah, I'm not 100% happy with Greymoor implementation but I'm glad that they're moving away from "be a vamp, it's free stat bonus". If vamp would be viable for every playstyle, there would be no incentive to stay mortal, simply because ESO removed the main drawback of vampirism, sun damage.
I will certainly cure most of my characters, but I don't see it as a problem. At least the remaining vamps will have some abilities to play with and not just 10% recovery.

It's hard to imagine werewolf who uses magic or werewolf who act like a tank, but it's easy to imagine an agile vampire with a sword, a vampire wearing plate armor, a vampire using magic.
Viable for every playstyle and build doesn't mean making every build overpowered, it's meant give opportunity to every role to implement vampire skills, make use of them and make this build feel more vampiric. If something is overpowered it's a problem of balance or bad design of the skill in its core.

You don't need to imagine a werewolf that uses magic, Vykosa or Sister Balra of Icereach coven are some examples.

robertthebard wrote: »

XomRhoK wrote: »

craybest wrote: »

Why should it be viable for every playstyle? Werewolf isn't viable for every playstyle either.
I think having them work for a specific one is the correct approach. They could widen the range of viability a bit maybe, but not to all of it.

mairwen85 wrote: »

I don't agree they should be 'viable for every kind of build'; vampirism should be a choice, a meaningful choice with benefit and sacrifice, and you should be required to invest in it to be effective. Whether the greymoor implementation achieves that is yet to be seen, but it certainly looks and feels like a discerned effort to make it so.

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

I don't agree they should be 'viable for every kind of build'; vampirism should be a choice, a meaningful choice with benefit and sacrifice, and you should be required to invest in it to be effective. Whether the greymoor implementation achieves that is yet to be seen, but it certainly looks and feels like a discerned effort to make it so.

Yeah, I'm not 100% happy with Greymoor implementation but I'm glad that they're moving away from "be a vamp, it's free stat bonus". If vamp would be viable for every playstyle, there would be no incentive to stay mortal, simply because ESO removed the main drawback of vampirism, sun damage.
I will certainly cure most of my characters, but I don't see it as a problem. At least the remaining vamps will have some abilities to play with and not just 10% recovery.

It's hard to imagine werewolf who uses magic or werewolf who act like a tank, but it's easy to imagine an agile vampire with a sword, a vampire wearing plate armor, a vampire using magic.
Viable for every playstyle and build doesn't mean making every build overpowered, it's meant give opportunity to every role to implement vampire skills, make use of them and make this build feel more vampiric. If something is overpowered it's a problem of balance or bad design of the skill in its core.

Actually, it's pretty easy to imagine a werewolf doing all of that, because when they're not transformed, they can be any of that, it's only after the transformation that things change. Vampirism isn't a form of lycanthropy.

I agree with you, when i wrote my statement about werewolves i thought only about transformed form, absolutely didn't take into account that they may be in human form.

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

XomRhoK wrote: »

craybest wrote: »

Why should it be viable for every playstyle? Werewolf isn't viable for every playstyle either.
I think having them work for a specific one is the correct approach. They could widen the range of viability a bit maybe, but not to all of it.

mairwen85 wrote: »

I don't agree they should be 'viable for every kind of build'; vampirism should be a choice, a meaningful choice with benefit and sacrifice, and you should be required to invest in it to be effective. Whether the greymoor implementation achieves that is yet to be seen, but it certainly looks and feels like a discerned effort to make it so.

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

I don't agree they should be 'viable for every kind of build'; vampirism should be a choice, a meaningful choice with benefit and sacrifice, and you should be required to invest in it to be effective. Whether the greymoor implementation achieves that is yet to be seen, but it certainly looks and feels like a discerned effort to make it so.

Yeah, I'm not 100% happy with Greymoor implementation but I'm glad that they're moving away from "be a vamp, it's free stat bonus". If vamp would be viable for every playstyle, there would be no incentive to stay mortal, simply because ESO removed the main drawback of vampirism, sun damage.
I will certainly cure most of my characters, but I don't see it as a problem. At least the remaining vamps will have some abilities to play with and not just 10% recovery.

It's hard to imagine werewolf who uses magic or werewolf who act like a tank, but it's easy to imagine an agile vampire with a sword, a vampire wearing plate armor, a vampire using magic.
Viable for every playstyle and build doesn't mean making every build overpowered, it's meant give opportunity to every role to implement vampire skills, make use of them and make this build feel more vampiric. If something is overpowered it's a problem of balance or bad design of the skill in its core.

And well, the problem is that if something gives extra power with no significant drawbacks, everyone would use it. Even if it's a small bonus, like current 10% recovery. I'm not saying that Greymoor vampires are perfect, but there is some stuff that can be utilized by various builds. The most obvious build would be magicka-based, but you can be a stam vampire archer that uses Titanborn set together with vamp buff and turns invisible when it's time to run away. Just an example.

I think our disagreements come from the fact that you watched at original poster numbers i watched only at ideas assuming that all can be balanced and tweaked. Of course in it current state his suggestions maybe overpowered, same as were regen passives, but it all can be balanced. My biggest problem with new vampires that their skill line not very active, Blood Frenzy looks and feels not like vampire ability more like shaman or demon, Blood Scion looks awful and use weapon, visuals and sounds of vampire abilities looks and sounds bad and sometime out of place. And this already set in stone probably for another 6 years. =(

robertthebard · May 2020

Other

Thevampirenight wrote: »

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

Thevampirenight wrote: »

robertthebard wrote: »

Thevampirenight wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

Thevampirenight wrote: »

Vampiric Drain Stage 1 and above
Mist Form Stage 2 and above
Eviscerate stage 3, and above.
Hypnotic Gaze Stage 4 only unless stage five in Blood Scion Form.

Issue with this list is ZOS fully intends Eviscerate to become the new "Vampire Drain". Reason all vampiric drain experience goes to it instead of vampiric drain as you'd expect it to, but it'd be nice to have both skills active at stage 1. Also in Oblivion and Skyrim the vampire seduction spell was a stage 2 active ability so for the sake of consistency should take the #2 spot, mistform should take the #3 spot, and Blood Frenzy takes #4 since its the most bestial and rabid.

I edited it around a bit making it stage four for Eviscerate. The idea of a very viable vampire for builds and stuff. Some players not liking my idea for vampirism seem to not like it because of this ability being mandatory or something some people chase meta way to much . If its the case then you should have to be at full vampiric power to use it fully in humanoid form or be in Blood Scion form. If its that good then it should require a higher draw back in order to use. Vampirism should be powerful but it should have trade offs that requires you to build with it and I do agree with players on that. But there does need to be viability for any Builds out there too.

The one thing I do agree with in the various posts is that there has to be a good enough draw back so everyone doesn't go for being a vampire like they do live but not everyone would drop it either and would actually play with the new vampirsm. So there has to be a balancing act.

Why does there need to be viability for any builds?

I can play the DB storyline on any character I choose. I can invest in the skill line, and have a good time with it. But, if I want to squeeze every bit of value out of it, NB is the best choice, as far as I'm concerned, because I can use Cloak to disappear, and escape if I have to, or use it to get position on an NPC for using the Blade of Woe. Is it mandatory? No, but it is ideal.

Because if its garbage and just for very few niche cases then people will treat it like garbage. People will likely be kicked out of group content because they are a vampire. What they said is we would get the greatest hits of vampirism. The Greatest hits would mean they give all those hits seen in all the playable vampires from the previous Single Player games. Meaning viability for all kinds of builds and that is what I expect when it comes to Greatest Hits
Daggerfall Vampires each had unique abilties depending on the clan. Some had healing abilties some had shielding abilties. Some had Teleportation abilties. Some had the ability to cure others of Paralysis apparently. Several unique variations, then you had Morrowind, which had it for mages, thieves and warriors.
Oblivion was more increasing magic and also buffs to strength and agility and sneaking.
Skyrim Illusion was buffed.

So why is it important? Because we should be getting the greatest hits of Vampirism like they said we would and the way they are doing it they are not even doing that.
How they do it is they give boons for the following to show off the greatest hits of vampirism seen in Tes.
Boons to Magicka,
Boons to Stamina
Boons to Tanking.
Boons too Support
Boons to Healing
Vampirism's greatest hits would benefit all types of builds.

The problem is that you're saying that people chase meta too much, but what you're proposing would 100% make vampires meta and you wouldnt be able to compete as a non-vamp. If so many people become vamps just for recovery, epic bonuses to everything would make anything else absolutely non-viable.
Other TES titles are single-player games so the balance is not so important. This type of "power fantasy" just doesn't work in multiplayer.
There's nothing wrong with some builds being niche. As for kicking, you are unlikely to be kicked as long as you're pulling your own weight. And if we're talking about potentially dangerous stuff in Greymoor, Thrassian Stranglers will likely cause more problems with pugs, since pug dds will see the parses and might try to replicate what their favorite youtuber did, all while standing in a fire circle.

Yes and you wonder why Zenimax keeps nerfing everything they keep track of what people are using and if its something they don't like they get the hammer. If they stopped focusing on being best in slot and maybe second best or third best or even forth best we wouldn't get all these sledge hammer nerfs in the game. Most of them have to do with breaking up stagnancy. Like for example most people and their mother using blood spawn or whatever set because its bis. That is meta and that is why they likely target it.

So yes I do think chasing meta has led to some of the changes that are making people angry. Also I'm not worried about being kicked out from a group I'm speaking out for the other players that are worried about this being a thing.
The point is you don't need to be Best In Slot to be Viable and that is what ruins cool and unique things and unique gameplay because players are chasing a meta that ends up getting copied at times and you wonder why Bloodspawn got and other sets got nerfed? All the cool stuff gets nerfed and why? Because people have to ruin it by everyone basically running it. That is why we can't have nice things
Had people not chased Vampire for Stam/magicka recovery passive for this must have meta chasing. They might have even kept it in with this rework.
That is how i feel.

They use spreedsheet balancing and they use that to determine what is overpeforming and that is what they nerf. If to many have this then it must be toned down.

But that does not mean they can't make a very viable Vampire active playstyle. They don't need to make garbage. Players expect better and that is what this thread is about. Making it a active playstyle that synergizes with your non vampiric builds if you choose. My hope is they take some of these ideas from myself and others here in the thread and see what they can add in to make it better. Now I don't expect them to add all the ideas but I do hope for them to take feed back from all this or from the pts forums or from ideas from other peoples threads and make it better then what it is coming with Greymoor. I do think the Vampire Skill line is owed that much given this very chapter is about vampires.

Ok? So why add to what they're going to nerf later? So that we can get another thread about how they're breaking vampire again? The problem here is that they are, in fact, trying to introduce something that's not op out of the gate, and look what we have here... The irony is delicious, but seriously mate, think about what you're asking for, compared to what you just stated here?