The "fix" that needs to happen here is for Dizzying Swing to be 100% decoupled from stuns all together. Having a spammable with such high damage that also allows the second one to stun (or provide an off-GCD stun with a split second "medium" attack) is flat out overpowered. If one of the morphs is going to have a stun attached, it needs to come with a -50% damage component as well...which would still leave it on par with many "generic" magicka spammables' damage output, but trade range for the stun.

MashmalloMan wrote: »

I guess we should nerf Crushing Shock by 50% too since it's a ranged interupt that will stun and set enemies off balance with 3 hits in 1 cast (tripple the proc chance for sets that require direct damage or damage done to proc) as well as being attuned to 3 elements, each having a 20% chance to proc burning, concussed and chilled status effects. That has the potential to provide snare, minor vulnerability, minor maim, increased vampire damage, etc.

Looks overloaded to me.. /s

Difference being that barely any cast/channel abilities exist in the game or the fact that only 2 classes in the entire game have cast time abilities at all. So please, don't you ever compare crushing shock to dizzying swing.

Dizzying swing is okay for what it is, but certainly needs no buff or "fix" as some people prefer to call it.

MashmalloMan wrote: »

First of all. -50% would not put it on par, thats a huge stretch, it's only about 30% stronger than current instant spammable standards and it's because it has a cast time. The same reason Jabs/Sweeps is so powerful.

Second. How can you compare a cast time spammable that needs to be used within 7m of your target and receives no damage unless the cast time is completed vs instant ranged magicka spammables that can be used 28m away.

I played Magicka Templar and Stamina Sorcerer numerous years ago, back when Dizzying Swing was significantly slower and Jabs/Sweeps were not only slower than the current iteration, but also pretty glitchy (ie, changing your character's facing for no apparent reason causing the last hit to miss, which also prevented the snare from taking hold). It gets pretty old seeing people talk about the current versions of these skills as though they were "difficult" to use, and require a high level of individual skill in order to land.

Stamina builds aren't all running around spamming Dizzying Swing because that's the "only option." They do it because it's an astoundingly powerful skill that really isn't very difficult at all to use in small scale fights, and is drastically superior to anything other than Biting Jabs. And when I say anything, I don't just mean "anything that stamina has access to" - I mean literally any other "generic" spammable in the game, and many class-specific ones as well. Other than Whip-vs-Vampires and the aforementioned Jabs/Sweeps, everything is garbage next to Dizzying Swing.

If this idea that Dizzying Swing is really "balanced" were true, we should see a lot of Stamina Necromancers and Stamina Wardens running their class-based spammable. After all, it would give them a ranged option, which is apparently super important according to some people, while also being oh-so-much easier to land, and supposedly well-balanced against Dizzying Swing. Yet I don't know that I've ever seen a single Stamina Necromancer use the Skull, and only very occasionally do you see a Warden with the Cliff Racer (and even then, only after the changes it received). And the problem isn't just the terrible projectile speed, either; they could be sped up to the point where they land instantly and Stamina builds would still all be running Dizzying Swing...because it's so overwhelmingly superior.

The proof is in the pudding, as the saying goes.

MashmalloMan wrote: »

I guess we should nerf Crushing Shock by 50% too since it's a ranged interupt that will stun and set enemies off balance with 3 hits in 1 cast (tripple the proc chance for sets that require direct damage or damage done to proc) as well as being attuned to 3 elements, each having a 20% chance to proc burning, concussed and chilled status effects. That has the potential to provide snare, minor vulnerability, minor maim, increased vampire damage, etc.

Looks overloaded to me.. /s

Can you name these apparently widespread proc sets that would benefit from Crushing Shock more than some other ability? The only Magicka proc sets I ever see in BGs are used by builds which explicitly skip using that spammable: Zaan on Mag DK or occasionally Mag NB. Caluurion on Mag NB. Or Winterborn/Icy Conjuror/Skoria on some Ice Warden setups.

The interrupt on Crushing Shock is neat and all, but only occasionally matters. When a Sorc streaks away but thinks they can still Dark Deal/Conversion while in my LOS+Range, or the occasional bow build that's spamming Snipes while out of stealth. What Stamina build in their right mind would want to use Crushing Shock over Dizzying Swing, if it were an option?

mikey_reach wrote: »

He wasn’t comparing dizzy swing to crushing shock, he was just using someone’s logic against them because that person was comparing apples to oranges. But i do agree that dizzy doesn’t need a buff it has plenty of counterplay as it is.

Comparing spammables to each other isn't apples to oranges.

Edit:
Forgot about Crushing Weapon as an alternative to Dizzying Swing...probably because literally no one uses it. Let me guess, they only forego it because no Stam players have the Summerset expansion, right? The poor dears just have to struggle along never being able to land a "cast time" Dizzying Swing on anybody that isn't a newb, rather than having an instant cast Crushing Weapon instead.

I actually did see very occasional use of Crushing Weapon in the past, and on players that were actually pretty successful with it. But after Dizzying Swing got buffed (despite all the apoplectic claims to the contrary), it pretty much ceased to exist entirely.

mikey_reach wrote: »

You are right comparing a spammable to a spammable isn’t apples to oranges. But comparing a skills that is instant hits 3 times has a higher chance of proccing certain sets and is also ranged to a skill that has a cast time and is melee and uses the opposite resource that the other kinda defines apples to oranges. Specially when you can contrast the 2 way more than you can compare them aside from both being “spammables” of course.

Apparently you didn't read the rest of the post, so I'll reiterate one question for you: Which proc sets are you referring to? I understand the theory just fine, but so far as I can tell, anyone who's using Crushing Shock or Force Pulse for their spammable isn't using any proc set.

Even if you want to count Succession as a "proc set," it doesn't really benefit from using the Destruction Staff spammable over other elemental options. What classes are really doing a meaningful mix of elemental damage types?

It also seems to me that you're grasping at straws to come up with differences between magicka and stamina spammables in order to declare the comparison invalid. They all serve essentially the same purpose: doing direct damage to enemies. Range might matter if you're zerging, in which case Stamina builds can utilize a bow and either Crushing Weapon or Snipe. The fact that almost none of them do this in small scale BG fights indicates that range matters very little in many instances, and Dizzying Swing reigns supreme over nearly everything else...and by a large margin at that.

I get that nobody wants to be nerfed, so some people are going to jealously protect their OP spammable, but the damage on Dizzying Swing and Biting Jabs are ludicrous when compared to most other things in the game. Their overuse illustrates this as well as anything else could; even those classes that have options (which is everyone who owns the Summerset Chapter, by the way) typically forgoes them in favor of Dizzying Swing. If it were really as "balanced but difficult to use" as some people try to claim, that wouldn't be the case.

MashmalloMan wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

If one of the morphs is going to have a stun attached, it needs to come with a -50% damage component as well...which would still leave it on par with many "generic" magicka spammables' damage output, but trade range for the stun.

Glad your not a dev then.

First of all. -50% would not put it on par, thats a huge stretch, it's only about 30% stronger than current instant spammable standards and it's because it has a cast time. The same reason Jabs/Sweeps is so powerful.

Second. How can you compare a cast time spammable that needs to be used within 7m of your target and receives no damage unless the cast time is completed vs instant ranged magicka spammables that can be used 28m away.

I guess we should nerf Crushing Shock by 50% too since it's a ranged interupt that will stun and set enemies off balance with 3 hits in 1 cast (tripple the proc chance for sets that require direct damage or damage done to proc) as well as being attuned to 3 elements, each having a 20% chance to proc burning, concussed and chilled status effects. That has the potential to provide snare, minor vulnerability, minor maim, increased vampire damage, etc.

Looks overloaded to me.. /s

I won't touch on the balance of the skill, I don't have a leg in this race since I have very little interest in using the skill, but your suggestion shows a lack of understanding and clear bias.

I'd prefer other spammables to be brought up, than have Dizzy, the only useful spammable available to stamina, brought down.

wheem_ESO wrote: »

(or provide an off-GCD stun with a split second "medium" attack)

Edit: Also this will change once they get back to the light/heavy attack changes, most likely for U27. For whatever reason they completely scrapped every idea they had, good or bad, when there were actually quite a few good ones. Examples being, Medium weaves would no longer stun and Light/Heavy attacks would have dynamic damage scaling.

Here:

• Partially-charged Heavy Attacks no longer stun Off Balanced enemies, but fully-charged Heavy Attacks continue to do so.

Dizzy needs to lose its cc components, end of story
Btw why should a range spammable be weaker than a melee ? Since magicka classes are mostly squishier than stamina chars, they also should put out more dmg...since everyone can spam gapclosers your argument is completely unacceptable. Ranged chars need to facetank the fat melee/heavy armor stamina facerolling boys cuz we don’t have a disengage.
Not to mention that a staminachar can dodgeroll like 10x more than a magicka char

You want to buff the most broken spammable in the game? Uhhh ok? Let's buff jabs whilst we're at it too? I mean this game is too hard, let's make everyone spam one button to kill.

Can we all put away our calculators for a second and just acknowledge that sending people flying by hitting them with a giant hammer was fun?

ElvenVeil wrote: »

a lot of people find dizzy super strong now.. I have no idea why though.

its tooltip scaling is 1.28x weapon damge , where crushing shock (as an example) , is at 1x spell damage, so thats 28% stronger, but has cast time which is always bad. dizzy has a cc, but because of off balance changes that means as a generous estimate is that you can do a stun every 21 seconds give or take. stuns are an essential part of landing killing blows, and if you rely just on dizzy stun you are trading a lot momentum for it. If you dont rely on the dizzy stun solely, the stun on the skill doesn't matter at all. on crushing shock (our comparison skill) you have a minimum 20% chance to proc each status effect, which you can bring up to 40% give or take, with charged. Status effects are super strong in this game, so this skill is easily as loaded as dizzy imo (or much more). Dizzy does allow for combos when cc is up, but if you are aware of this, then dizzy is the easiest skill in the game to fight.

edit: used wrong numbers for the % chance on status effect

@ElvenVeil Do you have a source for this 1.28x weapon damage information? I find this interesting and would like to know if something like this exists for other abilities and if it is written somewhere.

@Dracane

yeah sure I normally go with the build editor on uesp (link below) .
You can go to the skill tab and next to each skill you have a little 'additional info' button you can press. This page is very accurate and its pretty rare for it to have errors too. If they do occur it also seems to be fixed pretty quickly.




link: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildEditor

Nevermind.

Dizzying swing does not need a buff nor a nerf, bc:
1. Cast-time = Sufficient damage as a reward if landed (take note while casting, caster is also completely prone to damage which may cancel the overall cast of dizzy swing due to switching to the defensive)
2. Hard to land because of cast time (Enemy streaks, dodge roll, or just moves out of range)
3. Close range skill, basically says it all; Have to be be next to the opponent to land a skill while also having a cast time.

As you can see, all three points all center around cast-time because damage should be rewarded if an ability with a cast-time has been landed. This is especially true if landing a skill may involve the player to be prone to damage and requires close proximity to the enemy.
Which is why I believe dizzying swing does not need to be nerfed or buffed, other skills just need to be on par.

Allielieu wrote: »

Dizzying swing does not need a buff nor a nerf, bc:
1. Cast-time = Sufficient damage as a reward if landed (take note while casting, caster is also completely prone to damage which may cancel the overall cast of dizzy swing due to switching to the defensive)
2. Hard to land because of cast time (Enemy streaks, dodge roll, or just moves out of range)
3. Close range skill, basically says it all; Have to be be next to the opponent to land a skill while also having a cast time.

As you can see, all three points all center around cast-time because damage should be rewarded if an ability with a cast-time has been landed. This is especially true if landing a skill may involve the player to be prone to damage and requires close proximity to the enemy.
Which is why I believe dizzying swing does not need to be nerfed or buffed, other skills just need to be on par.

Have you considered: It's wildly less fun to use now that its just a spam attack, and those three points would also still be valid if it reverted back to the regular knock down.