Ratzkifal wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

Casterial wrote: »

I didn't vote, but I saw a high % of ppl talking about Redguard, sorry. If you build Redguard right its a powerful stam race.

And other races WILL be overall better for whatever role you decide. Sustain? Bosmer. The 258 regen is much more than you think, bosmers may say that have a useless passive, but this one passive trumps 2 of Redguard’s passives even with weapon abilities outside of a training dummy, which no one worth their salt in pvp will be barring lag.Tankiness? Nord or Imperial. Damage? Orc or Dunmer.

Let's do the maths.
Redguards get an effective 380 stamina recovery out of Adrenaline Rush. Bosmer gain 258. Of course we need to add 20% from Major Endurance to that and another 28% from wearing 7 pieces of medium armor and we get...
258*1.48 = 381.84 for noCP PvP (and Battlegrounds) and 258*1.63= 420,54 for everything with CP.
Now we need to adjust for Martial Training. For that we take the two skills almost every stam dps uses in their rotation, those being Endless Hail and Poison Injection.
Maths:

Note: I am taking the values straight from my Bosmer Warden and I am not running NMA. Endless Hail morph, because it favors Bosmer.
Poison Injection: 1998/10 - (1998*0.92)/10= 199.8 - 183.8 = 16
Endless Hail: 2597/12 - (2597*0.92)/12 = 216.4 - 199.1 = 17.3
Now we have the stamina saved per second, but not the effective recovery, since recovery happens every two seconds.
So we need to multiply those by two.

Redguards get 66.6 additional effective recovery when using Endless Hail and Poison Injection. Adding those to the 380 from before, they get 446.6 effective recovery. Versus the 420.54 effective recovery Bosmer get, they actually leave with more stamina than Bosmer. Of course whenever a Redguard lets their adrenaline rush lapse, this value is lowered, making it more even between them. Under ideal conditions, not necessarily dummy conditions, Redguard is better in PvE than Bosmer. So the better the player, the better the Redguard.
Paradoxically this makes Redguards superior to Bosmer on Bow setups where it's easier for Redguards to proc their Adrenaline Rush immediately in addition to using Snipe as a spammable, which has not even been factored into the calculation yet.

As for PvP the difference is much less clear. First of all not everyone in PvP is running 7 pieces of Medium armor. Most people are using heavy armor, where Redguards clearly have better sustain. Then there is stamina recovery being completely negated when blocking and sprinting, which you do in PvP more than in PvE. In no-CP a single weapon skill will already make Redguards have more effective stamina recovery.
But there are also a lot of skills and passives buffing recovery, like Continous Attack, Battle Rush and Momentum. Setups using a lot of weapon abilities will prefer Redguard, especially Snipe because of the ease of use it allows for proccing Adrenaline Rush while Bosmer look the best on Two-Handed setups due to Momentum and Battle Rush.

Although it cannot be said with certainty, it looks to me like Redguard is better in noCP PvP and Battlegrounds and worse in CP PvP.
If the build has 5 pieces heavy armor or relies heavily on weapon abilities, like stamSorcs or Snipe spammers, Redguard is better.
If the build has 5 pieces medium armor and uses a two-handed weapon for momentum and execute only, Bosmer is better.

This is assuming that you will proc adrenaline rush on cooldown all the time in pvp (which will never happen due to many factors including roll dodge, los, being cced, being out of range and more other factors that will interrupt you form landing a direct damage attack on the 5th second every 5th second
between procs). Plus you are not attacking someone with/using weapon abilites all the time, unlike pve. you are using class abilites, guild abilites, dodging, losing etc.

Also there are other stam regen modiifers that you left out, like continuous attack when you are in cyrodiil, and 30% stam regen on kill with a 2h, which can lead to insane numbers for bosmer. You say that it is ironic that redguard is better at bow than bosmer, how about bosmer being better at 2h than redguard? Additonally, I see more people run medium armor for the weapon damage passives rather than heavy armor, even so a bosmer in no cp with just 2 med armor a potion and forward momentum gets 358 stam regen (258*1.38), which is nearing a perfect redguard to begin with, not even including class passives or kill with 2h.

Also this is assuming that you don't have any other recovery passives from class (12% from animal companions) or otherwise. Also your math is lacking in a critical way. Cost reduction is multiplicative, not additive since a couple of patches ago. For your endless hail poison injection example, you have to factor in the 15% cost reduction from bow and 14% from medium armor. Essentially, the more cost reduction, the less effective redguard gets. So it is effectively: [ (.86*.85) - (.86*.85 * .92) = .05848 ~.058] for the difference in cost. Using your math:

Poison Injection: 1998/10 * .058 = 11.58 * 2 = 23.2 stam regen
Endless Hail: 2597/12 * .058 = 12.55 * 2 = 25.1 stam regen

total = 48.3
Ideal pve case = 380 + 48.3 = 428.3, onlyabout 8.3 regen better than the no class passive, no minor endurance from another warden, bosmer, bosmer becomes the clear winner when you don't use snipe in pve.

For snipe with a cost of 3240
3240 * .058 = 187.92 stam saved per cast.

sorry about formatting and proof reading or if I missed a point or 2 of yours, I was tired while writing this.

Poor Bosmor, theyre just amusing right now.