Utility of rattlecage for DPS

rexagamemnon · May 2020

So rattlecage is a heavy armor set, but i was curious what the community think about using the weapons and jewelry from rattle cage for a magika dps role. Rattlecage gives great bonuses but is heavy armor. But if one were to apply rattlecage to jewelry and weapons it wouldnt take away from the light armor pasives gained from wearing all light armor, while gaining great bonuses from rattlecage.

MrBrownstone · May 2020

No, Rattlecage doesn't provide great bonuses. It's greatest bonus is Major Sorcery which can be obtained from pots or even from a single skill. It's one of the worst decisions you can make using it, i mean you're sacrificing a whole 5 piece set for opening a slot on your bar. You have room for only 2 full sets while you have 10 skill slots. Just slot any skill that gives Major Sorcery.

AcadianPaladin · May 2020

My magplar happily runs Rattlecage (cuirass, 2xstaves, 2xjewelry) and remains 5 (light) / 1/1. I refuse to guzzle potions and degen is a crap skill. The first four bonuses on Rattlecage are fine mag bonuses and I love the 'always on' wear and forget access to major sorcery. I'm very happy with it.

FirmamentOfStars · May 2020

For a magicka dps it is one of the worst choices you can do. Its boni are very bad for a dps, since crit is the desired stat. So as a dps i would never suggest anyone to wear it.

For pvp some may say its good, because you dont have to waste a global cooldown to buff up or you can use tripots instead of spellpower pots. But also here i would say its one of the bad choices you can do, even if you are lazy or whatever. Other sets provide just so much more, it isnt worth it to waste a whole 5 piece set for one skill slot.

Kamchuk · May 2020

Go to the Build Editor at: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildEditor and try different build scenarios.

Try 5 Rattlecage, 5 New Moon, 2 Slimecraw. Mix Light and Heavy. Use Bewitched Sugar Skulls as your potion. On Jewelry make them infused and enchant with Magic Damage. Make your weapon Nirhoned and enchant with weapon damage. See how this compares with your current setup.

clocksstoppe · May 2020

From a pure competitive pve dps standpoint it's kind of useless since you can 100% major sorcery uptime from pots. Personally I think the spellpower pots are not worth it money wise unless you're trying to speedrun some vet trial, so unless your class has an easy way to proc major sorcery (tank should provide this anyways with igneous in 99% of cases), you're wasting a valuable 5set effect.

Stx · May 2020

I would say rattlecage has its uses but ultimately it's only useful if you absolutely cant use a spell power pot.

If you're into soloing pve content like maelstrom arena or vet dungeons you can make a decent build with it.

But honestly degeneration is not a bad skill. The damage is B tier and the cost is very low. Also you get passive 2% magicka for slotting it on your front bar.

Vetixio · May 2020

I love Rattlecage its great on classes such as Magicka Templar and Magicka Necromancer who don't have a class skill that gives major sorcery or don't want to use Degeneration because as someone said before its a rather crap skill lol.

idk · May 2020

Rattlecage is only good for someone who wants to get cheap access to the Major Sorc buff. Beyond that, it is not worth it, IMHO.

GrumpyDuckling · May 2020

Yes on Rattlecage, and other sets like it. 100% yes.

It is frustrating to see players that I am grouped up with fail to perform necessary, and sometimes simple, mechanics in a dungeon because they are so absorbed with their own personal mini-game of buff-maintaining amidst their skill-weaving. Often, these group members are copying a complex rotation from a build that they saw on Youtube that has some ridiculous high-number, and they put too much on their plate to the point where it becomes a detriment to the group.

A set like Rattlecage can make rotations simpler, or allow you to take something off of your plate so you can focus more on mechanics. I don't care what your DPS number is as long as it is sufficient for the content, and that you perform your role without constantly bringing the group down.

I do suggest, however, to keep a backup set with you that can replace Rattlecage (or Dreugh) if you have a group member using Igneous/Molten to give the whole group Major Sorcery/Brutality. A quick swap of your jewels and staves, and boom -- same build with a new set bonus.

Mindcr0w · May 2020

Meh, it'd be fine for lower end content. But you can make anything work for lower end content. 🤷‍♂️

Drdeath20 · May 2020

There is not enough numbers to make it better than most crafable sets.

Its a luxury pvp set and even then its not that great.

John_Falstaff · May 2020

@GrumpyDuckling , thing is, in most (or all) situations you're talking about, grabbing something like NMA instead of Rattlecage will be simply better, even without Major Sorcery. So you can put on a crafted set and get better results without having that buff at all, than going all the way to farm Rattlecage (and transmute it, because it's heavy) and having buff from it.

Chelo · May 2020

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

My magplar happily runs Rattlecage (cuirass, 2xstaves, 2xjewelry) and remains 5 (light) / 1/1. I refuse to guzzle potions and degen is a crap skill. The first four bonuses on Rattlecage are fine mag bonuses and I love the 'always on' wear and forget access to major sorcery. I'm very happy with it.

For a min/max standpoint you are crippling yourself. If you don't have gold for potions, or cant craft your own, that's your fault.

Advising people to not use potions, its like advising them to not use food...

Rattlecage is a "casual" set, plain and simple, and nobody will use it in an optimal context, neither in PvE or PvP.

BUT... I'm not saying you can't use it, you certainly can, Im just saying nobody should take a serious advise for someone who actually use it (because that person must be a really casual player).

idk · May 2020

Chelo wrote: »

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

My magplar happily runs Rattlecage (cuirass, 2xstaves, 2xjewelry) and remains 5 (light) / 1/1. I refuse to guzzle potions and degen is a crap skill. The first four bonuses on Rattlecage are fine mag bonuses and I love the 'always on' wear and forget access to major sorcery. I'm very happy with it.

For a min/max standpoint you are crippling yourself. If you don't have gold for potions, or cant craft your own, that's your fault.

Advising people to not use potions, its like advising them to not use food...

Rattlecage is a "casual" set, plain and simple, and nobody will use it in an optimal context, neither in PvE or PvP.

BUT... I'm not saying you can't use it, you certainly can, Im just saying nobody should take a serious advise for someone who actually use it (because that person must be a really casual player).

This is correct. While I said earlier it is for people who want cheap access to the Major Sorc buff, it is far from optimal.

While there is nothing wrong with someone who wants cheap access to that buff is probably someone who is not trying to be a strong player.

GrumpyDuckling · May 2020

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@GrumpyDuckling , thing is, in most (or all) situations you're talking about, grabbing something like NMA instead of Rattlecage will be simply better, even without Major Sorcery. So you can put on a crafted set and get better results without having that buff at all, than going all the way to farm Rattlecage (and transmute it, because it's heavy) and having buff from it.

You don't have to transmute Rattlecage jewelry. Vaults of Madness has rings and a necklace that come in Arcane.

idk · May 2020

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@GrumpyDuckling , thing is, in most (or all) situations you're talking about, grabbing something like NMA instead of Rattlecage will be simply better, even without Major Sorcery. So you can put on a crafted set and get better results without having that buff at all, than going all the way to farm Rattlecage (and transmute it, because it's heavy) and having buff from it.

You don't have to transmute Rattlecage jewelry. Vaults of Madness has rings and a necklace that come in Arcane.

Pretty sure their focus is NMA is easier to obtain and a better set all around.

However, you are not entirely correct since this thread is likely talking about a 5 piece set. That means some pieces have to be weapons or armor so transmuting something could very well be needed.

GrumpyDuckling · May 2020

idk wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@GrumpyDuckling , thing is, in most (or all) situations you're talking about, grabbing something like NMA instead of Rattlecage will be simply better, even without Major Sorcery. So you can put on a crafted set and get better results without having that buff at all, than going all the way to farm Rattlecage (and transmute it, because it's heavy) and having buff from it.

You don't have to transmute Rattlecage jewelry. Vaults of Madness has rings and a necklace that come in Arcane.

Pretty sure their focus is NMA is easier to obtain and a better set all around.

However, you are not entirely correct since this thread is likely talking about a 5 piece set. That means some pieces have to be weapons or armor so transmuting something could very well be needed.

I am entirely correct. I said you don't have to transmute Rattlecage jewelry. That's a fact.

If you want to talk about transmutation as a whole, then transmuting Rattlecage still probably isn't necessary. Chest or Legs aren't that difficult to acquire in a desired trait. There is a charged Lightning Staff and a Precise Ice Staff that also drop in Vaults of Madness that are easy enough to acquire.

idk · May 2020

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

idk wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@GrumpyDuckling , thing is, in most (or all) situations you're talking about, grabbing something like NMA instead of Rattlecage will be simply better, even without Major Sorcery. So you can put on a crafted set and get better results without having that buff at all, than going all the way to farm Rattlecage (and transmute it, because it's heavy) and having buff from it.

You don't have to transmute Rattlecage jewelry. Vaults of Madness has rings and a necklace that come in Arcane.

Pretty sure their focus is NMA is easier to obtain and a better set all around.

However, you are not entirely correct since this thread is likely talking about a 5 piece set. That means some pieces have to be weapons or armor so transmuting something could very well be needed.

I am entirely correct. I said you don't have to transmute Rattlecage jewelry. That's a fact.

The person you quoted did not mention jewelry and OP is talking about jewelry and weapons. So you were only talking to part of the picture which is what I was pointing out. That is a fact.

GrumpyDuckling · May 2020

idk wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

idk wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@GrumpyDuckling , thing is, in most (or all) situations you're talking about, grabbing something like NMA instead of Rattlecage will be simply better, even without Major Sorcery. So you can put on a crafted set and get better results without having that buff at all, than going all the way to farm Rattlecage (and transmute it, because it's heavy) and having buff from it.

You don't have to transmute Rattlecage jewelry. Vaults of Madness has rings and a necklace that come in Arcane.

Pretty sure their focus is NMA is easier to obtain and a better set all around.

However, you are not entirely correct since this thread is likely talking about a 5 piece set. That means some pieces have to be weapons or armor so transmuting something could very well be needed.

I am entirely correct. I said you don't have to transmute Rattlecage jewelry. That's a fact.

The person you quoted did not mention jewelry and OP is talking about jewelry and weapons. So you were only talking to part of the picture which is what I was pointing out. That is a fact.

There is a reason why I wrote the sentence "You don't have to transmute Rattlecage Jewelry." It was to inform the person that there might be less/no transmutation necessary (because they mentioned it was "heavy," which strongly suggests they were talking about jewelry -- because what does "heavy" have to do with transmutation?).

You just wanted to argue so you called my statement "not entirely correct." You are wrong. Please read more carefully next time.

EtTuBrutus · May 2020

Don't run rattle.

John_Falstaff · May 2020

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

idk wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@GrumpyDuckling , thing is, in most (or all) situations you're talking about, grabbing something like NMA instead of Rattlecage will be simply better, even without Major Sorcery. So you can put on a crafted set and get better results without having that buff at all, than going all the way to farm Rattlecage (and transmute it, because it's heavy) and having buff from it.

You don't have to transmute Rattlecage jewelry. Vaults of Madness has rings and a necklace that come in Arcane.

Pretty sure their focus is NMA is easier to obtain and a better set all around.

However, you are not entirely correct since this thread is likely talking about a 5 piece set. That means some pieces have to be weapons or armor so transmuting something could very well be needed.

I am entirely correct. I said you don't have to transmute Rattlecage jewelry. That's a fact.

If you want to talk about transmutation as a whole, then transmuting Rattlecage still probably isn't necessary. Chest or Legs aren't that difficult to acquire in a desired trait. There is a charged Lightning Staff and a Precise Ice Staff that also drop in Vaults of Madness that are easy enough to acquire.

Not sure what kind of point does it make. You spend a while farming sub-par staff types and traits (who ever uses ice staff for damage?), or craft NMA inferno in five minutes and it's going to be better than having Major Sorcery from Rattlecage.

And yes, @idk is right, that was my point. Not sure who in their right mind would spend their time hunting for a set that's plain worse than the set you can craft in a jiffy.

GrumpyDuckling · May 2020

John_Falstaff wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

idk wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@GrumpyDuckling , thing is, in most (or all) situations you're talking about, grabbing something like NMA instead of Rattlecage will be simply better, even without Major Sorcery. So you can put on a crafted set and get better results without having that buff at all, than going all the way to farm Rattlecage (and transmute it, because it's heavy) and having buff from it.

You don't have to transmute Rattlecage jewelry. Vaults of Madness has rings and a necklace that come in Arcane.

Pretty sure their focus is NMA is easier to obtain and a better set all around.

However, you are not entirely correct since this thread is likely talking about a 5 piece set. That means some pieces have to be weapons or armor so transmuting something could very well be needed.

I am entirely correct. I said you don't have to transmute Rattlecage jewelry. That's a fact.

If you want to talk about transmutation as a whole, then transmuting Rattlecage still probably isn't necessary. Chest or Legs aren't that difficult to acquire in a desired trait. There is a charged Lightning Staff and a Precise Ice Staff that also drop in Vaults of Madness that are easy enough to acquire.

Not sure what kind of point does it make. You spend a while farming sub-par staff types and traits (who ever uses ice staff for damage?), or craft NMA inferno in five minutes and it's going to be better than having Major Sorcery from Rattlecage.

And yes, @idk is right, that was my point. Not sure who in their right mind would spend their time hunting for a set that's plain worse than the set you can craft in a jiffy.

I clearly wasn't arguing against your point when I posted about Arcane Rattlecage jewelry. I simply replied to provide information concerning your comment on transmutation. If anyone reading this thread does want to run Rattlecage, then it may be helpful to know that there is Arcane jewelry that drops in Vaults of Madness. I don't have a clear understanding of why @idk took issue with that. From my view, it just seemed like that person had a desire to argue.

As for how/why people decide on certain play styles and sets. I am not going to rip anyone for using an ice staff for damage.
Nor will I give anyone a hard time about choosing a set like Rattlecage over a set like NMA. But hey, I actually think people should be allowed to make their builds the way the want to make them (that's why I said I only care if someone is sufficient). I'm often not a fan of the "who in their right mind would ___" statements regarding build choices. That's too close to telling people how to play for my taste. Differences of opinion, perhaps.

idk · May 2020

John_Falstaff wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

idk wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@GrumpyDuckling , thing is, in most (or all) situations you're talking about, grabbing something like NMA instead of Rattlecage will be simply better, even without Major Sorcery. So you can put on a crafted set and get better results without having that buff at all, than going all the way to farm Rattlecage (and transmute it, because it's heavy) and having buff from it.

You don't have to transmute Rattlecage jewelry. Vaults of Madness has rings and a necklace that come in Arcane.

Pretty sure their focus is NMA is easier to obtain and a better set all around.

However, you are not entirely correct since this thread is likely talking about a 5 piece set. That means some pieces have to be weapons or armor so transmuting something could very well be needed.

I am entirely correct. I said you don't have to transmute Rattlecage jewelry. That's a fact.

If you want to talk about transmutation as a whole, then transmuting Rattlecage still probably isn't necessary. Chest or Legs aren't that difficult to acquire in a desired trait. There is a charged Lightning Staff and a Precise Ice Staff that also drop in Vaults of Madness that are easy enough to acquire.

Not sure what kind of point does it make. You spend a while farming sub-par staff types and traits (who ever uses ice staff for damage?), or craft NMA inferno in five minutes and it's going to be better than having Major Sorcery from Rattlecage.

And yes, @idk is right, that was my point. Not sure who in their right mind would spend their time hunting for a set that's plain worse than the set you can craft in a jiffy.

Thank you.

I think Grumpy did not mean anything about their comment and just did not realize that by saying the jewelry did not need to be transmuted when quoting you mentioning having to transmute the gear seemed to suggest you were wrong. This was mostly because they spoke to only part of the required gear.

In the end, I think it was just context was left out giving an appearance that I doubt Grumpy intended.

Integral1900 · May 2020

I would not use it in anything beyond normal if you don’t have to 🙂

I keep full sets of rattle cage and derugh king slayer mostly for solo builds where bar space can be at a serious premium

But these days I don’t do veteran content much anymore, I just don’t enjoy it. I can do it, I know what to do and when but listening to other players bickering just gets on my nerves and most meta builds bore me to sleep 😴

Solo builds and my beloved hybrids can’t really give up tri-potions in favour of damage ones in a lot of cases, and while I have millions on the bank I just can’t bare munching up expensive potions when I can get the same effect elsewhere

Also, as I’m an old codger, I sometimes get bewildered in the mechanics heavy dungeons and trials of the last couple of years. My old brain sometimes just can’t focus on rotations, mechanics and lag at the same time. Like someone else said, it’s useful for taking things of you plate but it’s not a veteran content set unless you are learning the mechanics, after all, a confused player is a dead player, a dead player doesn’t learn as much

Kamchuk · May 2020

rexagamemnon – As you can see, there are many opinions. There are so many variations and complexities in builds. That’s what makes this such an awesome game. It is such a shame that the performance is so frustratingly BAD that veteran players are not playing as much as they use to.

My advice to you is to goto the Build Editor I mentioned before and View other builds. There is a link at the top to display player’s previous build iterations. (I even have an old version there – search for “Tarl Cabot”). I could solo most group dungeons with that one. In PVP though I was an average player at best. It depends on what you want to do – PVE or PVP.
As your game evolves, don’t forget to pass your knowledge and experience to the next guy.

kylewwefan · May 2020

Rattle cage isn’t a terrible set. You can get some pretty raunchy stats with it, but you’re gonna hit the ceiling quick.

If maybe your intention is so you can use tripots and not have to do mages guild for degeneration and class doesn’t have a major sorcery granting skill; it’s great. If your build is using degeneration or some class skill for major sorcery it’s not a good set because the buffs don’t stack.

Something to keep in mind also is upgrading the equipment. It’s a major buff percent thing and will not get any better even at legendary quality. Blue is fine.

While you’re in there, that grothdar helmet happens to be one of the strongest sets in the game.

YandereGirlfriend · May 2020

I always seem to get suspiciously great drops of this set from Vaults and my magPlar definitely fits into that category of "Classes having no innate access to Major Sorcery" so I've hung on to a few of them.

I like to use Health + Armor pots on a melee class such as magPlar and, of course, you also need to use Immovability and other utility potions frequently. As such, depending upon Spell pots for your Major Sorcery is not always a viable option.

After that, Degeneration is simply a bad skill in PvP, but I grudgingly keep it on my bar to provide the buff. That bar slot is valuable real estate and I would love to get it back, but using Rattlecage seems like too much of a trade.

There's other considerations as well, such as the sub-optimal nature of having to either give up a back-bar Potentates or arena set or else deal with having Sorcery only on your front bar and potentially having weaker heals if they're slotted on your defensive bar.

And if you want to use NMA you then have to wear it on your body instead of front-barred, so your overall sustain will be that much worse.

Austinseph1 · May 2020

Saying degen is a crap skill for those that want an easy build is a serious lack of foresight, using rattlecage in place of something like false gods (game changer for relaxed style builds) or another set that provides 5 useful bonuses because you don't understand how well degen can preform in off meta builds is pretty meh. All of my builds have both major sorcery and major prophecy built in, and have a shield as well as healing skills, all without giving up any damage. I have one dps for every class that does this. Degeneration is a great dot, gives you major sorcery, AND passively gives you all of the mages guild buffs. Say what you want about off meta mag builds but degeneration is a great and well rounded skill that provides both damage, an important buff, and passive damage bonuses.

CaptainVenom · May 2020

Nice set, yes. But not that great, I'm afraid. You can always get Major Sorcery from Entropy. Rattlecage would, of course, be handy so you can use Entropy slot for something else. Other than that, I don't know if it is that useful.

YandereGirlfriend · May 2020

Austinseph1 wrote: »

Saying degen is a crap skill for those that want an easy build is a serious lack of foresight, using rattlecage in place of something like false gods (game changer for relaxed style builds) or another set that provides 5 useful bonuses because you don't understand how well degen can preform in off meta builds is pretty meh. All of my builds have both major sorcery and major prophecy built in, and have a shield as well as healing skills, all without giving up any damage. I have one dps for every class that does this. Degeneration is a great dot, gives you major sorcery, AND passively gives you all of the mages guild buffs. Say what you want about off meta mag builds but degeneration is a great and well rounded skill that provides both damage, an important buff, and passive damage bonuses.

Nice, shots at me and a humble brag in the same sentence.

Did you perhaps miss the part where I was explicitly talking about PvP? Or the part where I also explicitly stated that I use Degeneration and that I don't use Rattlecage? You don't need to pretend to convince me that Degeneration is worth slotting; I already do but I don't enjoy it due to its opportunity cost.

On a max-damage non-CP setup I get a ~15k Degen tooltip over 12 seconds. After Battle Spirit and 30% (which is low) additional mitigation, that works out to about ~400 non-Critical damage per second. That's not killing or pressuring anybody or anything, it's simply a skill that you cast to get the buff.

Could you improve that damage on a magCro or by using Draugrkin? Sure, but that could be said of literally any DoT in the game. For most users most of the time, it's a self-buff skill that you use when you don't have better options, the damage of which is virtually an afterthought.