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ZOS Recycling and generic exploration

Woodenplank
Woodenplank
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I am sick and tired of seeing Alits all over the place. They were fun and different when we first saw them in Morrowind (TES 3 that is), but now we find that these creatures, who were indigenous to volcanic wastelands, are apparently indigenous to pretty much anywhere.
Blackmarsh; okay, it shares a border with Morrowind, some might have wandered south, but the jungles of Valenwood? On the other side of the continent? So wildly different from Stonefalls? Or Khenarthi's Roost; an isolated island by the southwest tip of the continent, about as far from Vvardenfell as you can get? Sure! got wild alits en masse. Northern Elsweyr? Sure, it's just a new Chapter zone, people won't expect new, different, interesting creatures.
And they also put welvas on Summerset, and the legendary Wamasu lizards of Blackmarsh in the deserts of upper Craglorn, and stuck a few in Valenwood jungles for good measure.

Another gross offender is "trolls" - which appear not only in most of the base game, but also got put into several DLC. Sometimes it's okay; putting them in Wrothgarr was cool, because it neighbours Skyrim, and its homeland of goblin-ken and all.
But Southern Elsweyr and Vvardenfell? Why? And those zones actually have fairly interesting biomes (giant armadillos and wierd terror birds; shroom beetles and fetcherflies, nix'thingies, etc.) - but ZOS couldn't resist throwing a few trolls in there as well... Because who wouldn't want Elsweyr and Morrowind to remind them of Skyrim and Cyrodiil... ?
And when new, interesting creatures and species are introduced (such as Haj-mota) they invariably get reused; often halfway across the continent.

And if this was only an issue among overland creatures I might forgive it, but it pervades Dungeons as well.
How many times have you fought a Bone Colossus (big flaming skeleton thing) as a boss? Many Ebonheart Pact players first saw one as Baldreth in Stonefalls, but they pop up everywhere; as a boss in Vaults of Madness, or in Crypt of Hearts (twice; Death's Leviathan and Llambris Amalgam).
How often have you fought a Harvester with the same old mechanics? Or a Lich using the same set of spells - Crypt of Hearts I, Vaults of Madness, Wayrest Sewers II, Fang Lair are just some of the places with Lich Bosses. They're everywhere.

In fact a lot of "villains" and daedric enemies just cycle through the same handful of characters.
I don't want to be all negative; so I'll say that the Daedric Titan is easily one of my favourite monster models in any video game. They're big, scary, and draconic without simply being dragons. But like so many other otherwisely awesome creatures, you get tired of them when they're made delve bosses, dungeon bosses, public dungeon bosses, main quest bosses, dolmen bosses, and so on. The first time I saw a daedric titan I was staggered by how awesome they looked; swooping in from the skies. Now it's a yawn.
Speaking of daedra, it seems the Princes have some sort of diversity hire plan going on, because they keep needlessly sharing minions. Golden Saints, which were always associated with Sheogorath and the Shivering Isle, apparently also serve Meridia along the Aurorans (I assume some developer pointed out they both wear golden armor, and thus must both serve Meridia). Likewise Dark Seducers - again, homed in the Shivering Isle - also serve Molag Bal, because his army wears black. In one of the Anchor fights, Molag Bal will explain that "most dremora serve Dagon", but Bal clearly shows his dremora-based army for the rest of the game. And he isn't afraid of using a few Bone Colossi or Liches either... And it's not that ZOS are incapable of creating unique daedra - just think of Shrikes and those creepy raven monsters from the Evergloam - but they usually don't.

In a nutshell (and I promise this will be the meanest comment I make); it seems that to ZOS taking an Elder Scrolls game across the entire continent, opening up all of Tamriel for us to explore became not an opportunity to let their imagination loose and freely create, but rather an excercise in how much copy-paste they could get away with.

I'm not saying the game is devoid of entertaining PVE experiences - I was very much entertained with Za'ji and Caska from Dragonhold, and while the Psijic skill line was a slog, it was somewhat alleviated by the Augur of the Obscure (Thank you again, Ben Driskin and whoever wrote the lines). I also enjoyed the Clockwork City - mostly because of the conversation with Sotha Sil towards the end, which was amazing.
In fact, the main quest lines for each zone are often a good run, (not through any difficulty, but story-wise). It's mostly that the zones are full of quest areas that... aren't exactly riveting.
And so damnably often it follows the same formula, where as you approach an area an NPC runs up to you shouting a variation of: "Hold traveler! Speak to me before entering; I'm wounded, please help!; No, do not go this way. There's danger up ahead; Ahh, I've been waiting for someone to come by, etc. etc." And it gets rather annoying.
It seems ESO tries to force a quest down your throat every time you pass by a bit of rubble.

Even in Coldharbour, which is pretty much the pinnacle of the base game (story wise), we're following the same old routines. An alien, daedric plane to explore, and instead of originality we're treated to another bout of Lady Clarissa Laurent and her manservant Stibbons, or helping the Vanos siblings explore another ayleid ruin - pretty much exactly what we did back in Tamriel, but just truncated to a gloomier setting.
And it annoys me because Coldharbour has so much potential. Look at what TES community members, such as Vicn of Nexusmods did with the concept. A Skyrim modder created a more intriguing, exciting and full version of Coldharbour by themselves as a Skyrim mod than ZOS' whole team did in ESO (okay, that was a mean comment as well. Sorry. But seriously, if you play Skyrim check out the mod here; it's staggeringly huge, complex, and captivating).
But ESO offers little of what Coldharbour could've been; take for instance the story of the Daedric Titans. They were created after Molag Bal lured a dragon, Boziikkodstrun, to Coldharbour; tore his soul out, and used the skeleton to create a daedric titan. Why not have a quest where we help Boziikkodstrun's soul escape to Aetherius/Akatosh? You could even make it a quest line where you collect his fragmented soul from various locations - maybe this is hubris, but I think it would make for a more compelling story than helping Stibbons escape a lewd Winged Twilight.

The Elder Scrolls probably have one of the most dedicated and enthusiastic fan bases of any video game franchise. Just look at all the community has created in mods for Morrowind, Oblivion, Skyrim, and ESO, and internet discussion (or look at how much I write, just to complain).
Why not use that? You could hold a "quest design competition" - ZOS wouldn't even need to invest a lot; just set up a few ground rules, and read through the top-voted suggestions by the community. I'm sure you wouldn't even need cash prizes or the like; most people would be honored to simply have something they invented put into the game.
Food for thought.
I think it is central to ESO's well-being to critique the developers when they change the game (or fail to change something).
But the negativity can be exhausting, so I vow to post 50/50 negativity and appreciation.
  • VaranisArano
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    The reused wildlife is especially disappointing given that ZOS does really well with adding new mobs and their mechanics. Terror birds, nix ox, and gryphons come to mind.
  • Sylvermynx
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    I just see stuff like alits as the coyotes of ESO. When I was growing up in Vegas, we would see coyotes if we were out in the desert, but never in town (this would have been back in the mid-60s). Now, there are coyotes in NYC...

    Don't take that to mean I think there shouldn't be new mobs though - gryphons in Summerset and terror birds in Elsweyr == VERY cool!

    I'm always up for new members of the hostile community....
  • Woodenplank
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    Sylvermynx wrote: »
    I just see stuff like alits as the coyotes of ESO. When I was growing up in Vegas, we would see coyotes if we were out in the desert, but never in town (this would have been back in the mid-60s). Now, there are coyotes in NYC...

    Sure; hence why I'm okay with Alits in, say, Blackmarsh where they could reasonably have migrated. Isolated islands on the other side of the continent?
    That's like Coyotes in Greenland.

    And I also agree with what you're saying; that ZOS actually does design new interesting beasts and enemies (not just animals; Shrikes and those wierd raven-monsters dude from Nocturnal's realm were new and unique!), but so much stuff - even the new exotic things - just gets copy-pasted and shoved into new content over and over.
    I think it is central to ESO's well-being to critique the developers when they change the game (or fail to change something).
    But the negativity can be exhausting, so I vow to post 50/50 negativity and appreciation.
  • Lady_Sleepless
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    For me the greatest offender is Thunderbugs, Assassin beetles and Crocodiles in High Rock.
    I know the beetles could migrate from Valenwood but it just feels awful lazy for a High Rock creature. The crocodiles in Glenumbra really annoy me to.
    Surely the inspiration for High Rock is Europe, so a more mystical or fantastical creature would have been more suitable than reused assets from Morrowind and Black Marsh. I would have loved a bog Kelpie or fairies, or something original to the area.
  • Woodenplank
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    For me the greatest offender is Thunderbugs, Assassin beetles and Crocodiles in High Rock.

    Ahh yes, how could I forget about the Thunderbugs and beetles!?
    While we're at it, let's not forget "monster bats" and imps.

    And, while it's not a monster type, I feel like ayleid ruins themselves are a bit overused. Cyrodiil? Of course! Valenwood? Sure, a lot of ayleids migrated.
    But Auridon? - that just seems like ZOS saying "High elf = ayleid". The deserts of Hammerfell? A remote orc-ruled island of Betnikh? All the way down in Blackmarsh and way up in Wrothgar?
    Why not put, you know... some more redguard; argonian, or orc-themed ruins in those places?
    I think it is central to ESO's well-being to critique the developers when they change the game (or fail to change something).
    But the negativity can be exhausting, so I vow to post 50/50 negativity and appreciation.
  • tsaescishoeshiner
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    For me the greatest offender is Thunderbugs, Assassin beetles and Crocodiles in High Rock.
    I know the beetles could migrate from Valenwood but it just feels awful lazy for a High Rock creature. The crocodiles in Glenumbra really annoy me to.
    Surely the inspiration for High Rock is Europe, so a more mystical or fantastical creature would have been more suitable than reused assets from Morrowind and Black Marsh. I would have loved a bog Kelpie or fairies, or something original to the area.

    Assassin Beetles actually make more sense in Stormhaven and especially Alik'r — the redguards brought their small, docile beetle pets from Yokuda, and they turned into giant monsters after being brought to the Tamriel mainland. There's a lil lore book about it. Still feels random in Stormhaven

    I do overall agree that there are a few too many reused assets. I don't mind the reskins (like Yaghra and Lurkers/Velidreth, Lizard bears) because they add unique local flavor. The Gryphons in Elsweyr are a nice touch, because there are just a couple, and it makes sense they can migrate. But ESO does seem to have a lot of identical, universal overland mobs
    PC-NA
    in-game: @tsaescishoeshiner
  • Thevampirenight
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    Well I just came across the possible reason why you are seeing Alits all over the place.
    Its quite ironic I just stumbled across this dialog when I was talking to Npcs in the place I entered to get go for the contraband quest in Sentinel after reading this thread.
    40f4fm.jpg

    Anyways there are creatures that are unique to certain areas that is not in dispute but that does not mean that people will not export them to other areas or if their is species variants in other areas around Tamriel, the Troll is a good example of this.
    Edited by Thevampirenight on May 7, 2020 1:16AM
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    Please add Fangs to Vampires.
  • Alpheu5
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    Fleshflies being everywhere was the first time I raised an eyebrow. In previous games, all mentions of fleshflies lead you to believe that they were exclusively limited to the swamps of Black Marsh and were a menace to outsiders. In ESO you see swarms of them in every zone and climate, including snowy mountains, being nothing more than a source of insect parts. Based on the descriptions, you'd have thought a swarm of fleshflies would have gotten the Kotu Gava swarm treatment and acted as a minor mob, not a reskinned torchbug.
    Dalek-Rok - Argonian Sorcerer || Dalek-Shād - Argonian Nightblade || Dalek-Shul - Argonian Templar || Dalek-Xal - Argonian Dragonknight || Mounts-the-Snout - Argonian Warden || Dalek-Xul - Argonian Necromancer || Two-Spires - Argonian Arcanist || Dalek-Nesh - Argonian Sorcerer || Dalek-Kör - Argonian Dragonknight
    Don't incorporate bugs into your builds, and you won't have [an] issue.
  • Taleof2Cities
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    Good thing Alits and Vvardenfell creatures are appearing in one of the Dwemer-themed public dungeons for Greymoor, @Woodenplank.

    No, the dungeon isn't anywhere in Morrowind ... it's deep underground in Western Skyrim.

    Just adding fuel to the fire I guess ... ;)

    Edited by Taleof2Cities on May 7, 2020 2:05AM
  • Sylvermynx
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    MMOs are homogeneous worlds I guess. I tend to not worry so much about trash mobs, overland or whatever. However, the density of trash overland mobs in this game drives me 'round the bend, but that's most likely just me....
  • Woodenplank
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    Well I just came across the possible reason why you are seeing Alits all over the place.
    Its quite ironic I just stumbled across this dialog when I was talking to Npcs in the place I entered to get go for the contraband quest in Sentinel after reading this thread.

    Sure that's an in-game, lore-wise reasoning. But at some point it just seems like a poor excuse, doesn't it?
    "Oh see here, our world is one of extensive smuggling; people even smuggle indigenous Morrowind creatures all across Tamriel! It's not 'lazy', it's just how the world works.
    Now, why would people smuggle undomesticated alits allover Tamriel and then just leave them to roam the wilds and aggro random adventurers? Ehm... you see... that's... uhh..."

    It should at least have been commonly domesticated pack animals like guar! In the same way that horses and donkeys can be found in much of our world (they're easily domesticated, efficient work animals) - how often do you see wild horses or wild donkeys, though?

    Because this is just ESO, though; alit smuggling somehow isn't a thing in any other games... strange. Especially considering that the Tamriel we see in TES3 and TES4 is a more united, stable one where everyone isn't at war with eachother like in ESO.
    Good thing Alits and Vvardenfell creatures are appearing in one of the Dwemer-themed public dungeons for Greymoor, @Woodenplank.

    No, the dungeon isn't anywhere in Morrowind ... it's deep underground in Western Skyrim.

    Just adding fuel to the fire I guess ... ;)

    This sums up my point exactly.

    Alpheu5 wrote: »
    Fleshflies being everywhere was the first time I raised an eyebrow. In previous games, all mentions of fleshflies lead you to believe that they were exclusively limited to the swamps of Black Marsh and were a menace to outsiders. In ESO you see swarms of them in every zone and climate, including snowy mountains, being nothing more than a source of insect parts. Based on the descriptions, you'd have thought a swarm of fleshflies would have gotten the Kotu Gava swarm treatment and acted as a minor mob, not a reskinned torchbug.

    If it was just swarms of "generic flies" or moquitoes that would work - those are, after all, very resilient beings that we see everywhere in our own world.
    They wouldn't even have to make a new skin/model... Just slap a different name on them.

    From The Argonian Account:
    Scotti and Mailic batted at the buzzing clouds as they rode their horses towards the largest of the buildings, which on approach revealed itself to be perched at the edge of a thick, black river. From its size and serious aspect, Scotti guessed it to be the census and excise office for the wide, white bridge that stretched across the burbling dark water to the reeds on the other side. It was a very nice, bright, sturdy-looking bridge, built, Scotti knew, by his Commission.

    A poxy, irritable official opened the door quickly on Scotti's first knock. "Come in, come in, quickly! Don't let the fleshflies in!"

    "Fleshflies?" Decumus Scotti trembled. "You mean, they eat human flesh?"

    "If you're fool enough to stand around and let them," the soldier said, rolling his eyes. He had half an ear, and Scotti, looking around at the other soldiers in the fort noted that they all were well-chewed. One of them had no nose at all to speak of.


    It really does sound like these would be pretty hazardous to any population; but we only hear of insects being a problem in places like Blackmarsh.
    [...] I don't mind the reskins (like Yaghra and Lurkers/Velidreth, Lizard bears) because they add unique local flavor. The Gryphons in Elsweyr are a nice touch, because there are just a couple, and it makes sense they can migrate. But ESO does seem to have a lot of identical, universal overland mobs

    I agree. I actually really like the Yahgra as well. Sure it's just a "reskin" of previous models; but that still takes some artistic effort, and the fact that they are (thus far...) unique to Summerset and intricate to that zone's quest line makes it okay!

    A few Summerset gryphons going to Elsweyr seems okay. Although they'd have to fly over all of Valenwood to make it; and it's strange then that we see none of them in Valenwood.
    Not that I'm asking for them to be retroactively added to even more zones though!
    I think it is central to ESO's well-being to critique the developers when they change the game (or fail to change something).
    But the negativity can be exhausting, so I vow to post 50/50 negativity and appreciation.
  • Margha_Ralmoren
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    Funny, I found a book in the game that explains why there are welwas in Summerset.


  • EvilAutoTech
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    Alits are a source of red meat. Kinda like angry cows. It makes sense that they would be shipped to places like Valenwood. It gives Bosmer something to eat besides, you know, each other. I think the story for them being on Khenarthi's Roost is that they were being shipped when the storm hit.

    Many cultures will ship their dead to their homelands. It's possible that fleshflies were accidentally shipped with corpses and infested other regions. There may have been any number of reasons they aren't found in such abundance 1000 years later in most of Tamriel. They seem to be something that is worthy of getting rid of.

    Trolls. We know that in the fourth era they were being weaponised. That practice may have started much earlier than that. What better way to troll your enemies than sending them actual trolls. I'd do it if it were an option.

    Also, it's a game. Try to have fun and not get so bothered by stuff you think the devs did wrong. Just a suggestion.
  • Woodenplank
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    Also, it's a game. Try to have fun and not get so bothered by stuff you think the devs did wrong. Just a suggestion.

    The issue is that, at the heart of it, I like TES games for exploring these fantastical worlds. And it somewhat detracts from that when I run into the same creatures and enemy types over and over and over again no matter which zone I go to.

    Bone Colossus? I saw two of them as the "legendary, trapped-in-a-volcano daedric spirits of Stonefalls", but was treated to the exact same model (with exact same set of abilities) in Crypt of Hearts I, and in Crypt of Hearts II, and as a regular between-bosses add in Crypt of Hearts II, and in City of Ash II... And in the Banished Cells, and in Wayrest Sewers II, and in Vaults of Madness, and during the Main Quest, and in delves both in old and DLC zones, and as the boss at the end of several quests across several different zones...
    And really I don't enjoy the model/two-abilities that much.

    Skyrim faced criticism for the same reason, with how much of the game consisted of just fighting Draugr; but at least Skyrim was just Skyrim; including a tonne of exotic animals wouldn't have made sense. But in ESO they do just that; rehash the same creatures and enemies over and over for (otherwisely) wildly different zones. And the effect is that exploring the world can feel a bit... bland at times, as you face the same foes no matter how far you travel.

    I still enjoy a lot of ESO; trials and dungeons are (generally) very well designed, it has (excepting the lag) quite honestly the best MMO PVP I have ever tried. And several zones really are quite distinct and enjoyable (Murkmire is pretty much exactly what I imagined Blackmarsh to be).
    But exploration has felt like a miss for a lot of zones; the terrain might be diverse enough for a lot of them, but the inhabitants are not.
    I think it is central to ESO's well-being to critique the developers when they change the game (or fail to change something).
    But the negativity can be exhausting, so I vow to post 50/50 negativity and appreciation.
  • AlienSlof
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    For me, it's wasps. Wasps EVERYWHERE. I absolutely HATE the bloody things!
    RIP Atherton, my beautiful little gentle friend. I will miss you forever. Without you I am a hollow shell.
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