Vamp Stage 0

wills43b14_ESO · May 2020

Hello all,

Ultimately I believe the changes to the vampire skill-line are very unhealthy for the game. In PvP, one-hit gank builds and bomb builds will be easier than ever before to achieve (something I just consider outright unhealthy). In PvE, I believe this will encourage MANY players to be "selfish" parse-monkeys, leading to frustration for many groups do to a higher clear/survival rate volatility. For PvE, it does nothing but raise the "power gap" ZOS was adamant about destroying mere weeks ago. I further believe this will lead to more general nerfs due to the inherent damage it adds... things like the failed LA/HA change attempt.

(on the note of vampirism, please get rid of the blood scion ultimate transformation RP or at least allow us to interrupt it)

Assuming the vamp changes go live, which I fully expect them to do, we need basic quality of life changes
Right now, vamp WILL be used for some content, but will be unusable in other content.

Adding a "Stage 0" where passives/skills are inactive/unusable, but the side affects are also negated (just inactivating the passives/skills achieves this automatically) would be a tremendous quality of life change.

Right now, I foresee myself constantly curing and reinfecting myself for various content, which will be very annoying if I do this multiple times a week.

Tl;dr: add a stage 0 to vamp that prevents skill/passive usage, but negates all side-effects of vamp

nsmurfer · May 2020

No, if you had vamp stage 0, why would anyone stay human?

Universe · May 2020

This can be practical.
Though if stage 1/2/3/4 drawbacks will remain so severe and move on to the Live server with Update 26,
I will just opt for curing Vampirism.
Also, the current vampire skill line on PTS doesn't appeal to me, it feels weak and unrewarding.

skinnycheeks · May 2020

nsmurfer wrote: »

No, if you had vamp stage 0, why would anyone stay human?

yep, agree

YandereGirlfriend · May 2020

nsmurfer wrote: »

No, if you had vamp stage 0, why would anyone stay human?

Vampire Stage Zero: No penalties, no passives, no abilities, all you can do is use feed and RP.

I think that would be a fair way to handle it: you have no advantages nor drawbacks but you have the pale skin and the ability to feed on NPCs. You want to actually play as a vampire then you need to step up to higher levels and accept the costs.

DT-ARR · May 2020

I like stage zero.

lucky_Sage · May 2020

I hate vampire and main a Magdk so I’ll just hit everyone harder because I know so many people will go vamp the new vamp rework allows a lot of new builds mostly melee magden magcro and magsorc which could be extremely fun and effective btw

AMeanOne · May 2020

Bomb builds unhealthy? Seriously?

Runefang · May 2020

wills43b14_ESO wrote: »

Hello all,

Ultimately I believe the changes to the vampire skill-line are very unhealthy for the game. In PvP, one-hit gank builds and bomb builds will be easier than ever before to achieve (something I just consider outright unhealthy). In PvE, I believe this will encourage MANY players to be "selfish" parse-monkeys, leading to frustration for many groups do to a higher clear/survival rate volatility. For PvE, it does nothing but raise the "power gap" ZOS was adamant about destroying mere weeks ago. I further believe this will lead to more general nerfs due to the inherent damage it adds... things like the failed LA/HA change attempt.

(on the note of vampirism, please get rid of the blood scion ultimate transformation RP or at least allow us to interrupt it)

Assuming the vamp changes go live, which I fully expect them to do, we need basic quality of life changes
Right now, vamp WILL be used for some content, but will be unusable in other content.

Adding a "Stage 0" where passives/skills are inactive/unusable, but the side affects are also negated (just inactivating the passives/skills achieves this automatically) would be a tremendous quality of life change.

Right now, I foresee myself constantly curing and reinfecting myself for various content, which will be very annoying if I do this multiple times a week.

Tl;dr: add a stage 0 to vamp that prevents skill/passive usage, but negates all side-effects of vamp

Agree 100% on the needing to cure and reinfect constantly with how they design it. Soon charging for a vampire bite will be a real thing lol.

idk · May 2020

nsmurfer wrote: »

No, if you had vamp stage 0, why would anyone stay human?

I do not get your point. Currently, when a player is on stage 1 vamp they get no benefit or any of the negative effects yet we have characters that are not a vampire. Idk, maybe you can explain your logic.

Deathlord92 · May 2020

It sure would be nice if there’s a way to avoid that 20% cost increase hahaha I can’t be the only stamina main who enjoys vampire simply for role play.

dwig · May 2020

Agreed. There needs to be a "neutral" stage.

Vevvev · May 2020

I think the neutral stage should be stage 1 like it is on live. Even at stage 1 the Fighter's guild abilities deal more damage but its an acceptable outcome since you're not burdened by the other issues like health regeneration and flame. And if anyone points out that vampire still have active abilities well I present to you this. Stage 2 is required for mistform to be good at opening up burst attacks, Blood Frenzy is going to cost its max health drain value, and none of the passives will be active. It'll be just like a normal skill line.

wills43b14_ESO · May 2020

@nsmurfer I had a convo with @skinnycheeks about this same thing. I think we all agree the current vampirism skill line and passive set is fundamentally unhealthy. I was looking for a way to at least make the skill-line sufferable, but I'd take a different rework of it any day over its current state.

wills43b14_ESO · May 2020

As it stands, I don't want to have to reinfect and cure myself every time I want to use it for either parsing, 2-3 trials (if that realistically), or PvP. Creating separate equal but separate toons just so I can vamp in a couple trials just sounds nasty as well. Werewolf, as far as I can tell, really has no downsides. It's true you have to transform to actually access the WW abilities and passives, but you can opt into playing a werewolf at any point.

wills43b14_ESO · May 2020

@Vevvev wholeheartedly agree. For PvP, the extra fighters guild dmg is a great "downside" or those arguing for one like @skinnycheeks and @nsmurfer . I just don't know how to add that same thing for PvE (other than DSA, where they use Fighter's Guild abilities). I could *maybe* see a 5-10% damage increase being okay. A different solution might be to have a -10% mag/stam regen hindrance since you are at your weakest/underfed.

wills43b14_ESO · May 2020

@lucky_Sage that is true, but it is mostly true for parse conditions (i.e. very few fights across very few trials) and PvP. Unfortunately, when not utilizing vamp to its fullest, you cannot sustain being a vamp. That is the primary issue I am raising here. Unlike WW, you retain vamp negatives all the time, so you would have to constantly reinfect and cure every time you changed content... which is VERY annoying (especially when you have to redo the quest).

Cinbri · May 2020

Stage 1 is barely have any serious drawbacks, unless you really into mix-max build for PvE.

wills43b14_ESO · May 2020

@Cinbri it looks small, but the increased fire dmg being additive really makes a difference (siroria fulminates will for sure kill you, any damage on a flare on Yolna or Lava Geysers on Yolna will kill you, AG is MUCH more dangerous, AS execute is more dangerous, etc.). Plus an increased cost nearly the same as NMA for no benefit (plus ulti cost increase) makes many fights unsustainable. It's not about "looking small" it's about tipping various fights over the sustain threshold and less ultimate. If you don't use vamp skills at stage 1, I'd hazard a 5% dps loss due to less ulting (rip Master Architect major slayer uptimes on blades; major berserk for other players, etc.) and being unable to sustain (or slotting sustain). It could actually be even higher towards an 8% dps loss. I'd hazard on the dummy it's closer to the 8-10% mark. For reference, at 90k+ dps, that's nearly 10k dps lost. That is pretty significant.

Cinbri · May 2020

wills43b14_ESO wrote: »

@Cinbri it looks small, but the increased fire dmg being additive really makes a difference. Plus an increased cost nearly the same as NMA for no benefit (plus ulti cost increase) makes many fights unsustainable. It's not about "looking small" it's about tipping various fights over the sustain threshold and less ultimate. If you don't use vamp skills at stage 1, I'd hazard a 5% dps loss due to less ulting (rip Master Architect major slayer uptimes on blades; major berserk for other players, etc.) and being unable to sustain (or slotting sustain). It could actually be even higher towards an 8% dps loss. I'd hazard on the dummy it's closer to the 8-10% mark. For reference, at 90k+ dps, that's nearly 10k dps lost. That is pretty significant.

ye, that's what I meant - increase cost is only real drawback, but only for endgame PvE.

wills43b14_ESO · May 2020

Even if it is only say 5-7k dps lost, multiply that by 8 (potentially) and now your group has lost anywhere from 40-56k dps. If a group with 320k single target dps on olms loses 40-56k dps, that's adding ~17% fight time. If a fight is 8 mins (imagine vAS), that's nearly 2 extra minutes of fight time. That will DRASTICALLY change group dynamics. It probably means another round or two of killing minis, which further increases the fight time, so the 17% fight time increase is underestimated. In general, as dps falls, the % fight time increase continually increases as more mechanics must be dealt with.

wills43b14_ESO · May 2020

@Cinbri so the only solution for PvEers then is to make multiple toons so you can have a vamp toon for the content you want to do. Or you need to reinfect and redo the quest/cure many times when you change content... it's just poor design. If you use the same toon for PvE and PvP, you're less likely to want to try out vamp as that inherently leads to the aforementioned annoying problems.

Cinbri · May 2020

wills43b14_ESO wrote: »

@Cinbri so the only solution for PvEers then is to make multiple toons so you can have a vamp toon for the content you want to do. Or you need to reinfect and redo the quest/cure many times when you change content... it's just poor design. If you use the same toon for PvE and PvP, you're less likely to want to try out vamp as that inherently leads to the aforementioned annoying problems.

From balancing PoV I think zos sees it as drawback of diversity that vampirism grant. And from immersion point of view having Stage 0 on default is RP/immersion/lore-breaking as it implemented ingame as most supreme form of vampirism.
So I doubt zos will change anything here unless they make some passive that will force to be invested into to get Stage 1 drawbacks and opening vampire skills for use.

wills43b14_ESO · May 2020

How is it lore breaking @Cinbri ? I could see attaching some kind of penalty (maybe a regen penalty) to stage 0 to give it a drawback. If stage 0, you're a weak and underfed vampire. Therefore you cannot use your normal vampiric abilities/passives. However, as ZOS mentions, as you feed you delve further into darkness. Therefore, not feeding is as close as you can get to retaining your humanity, but you're also a weak vampire and cannot use vampiric abilities. It fits perfectly with their description.

They blatantly state feeding increases the corruption, so not feeding should not corrupt you.

Cinbri · May 2020

wills43b14_ESO wrote: »

How is it lore breaking @Cinbri ? I could see attaching some kind of penalty (maybe a regen penalty) to stage 0 to give it a drawback. If stage 0, you're a weak and underfed vampire. Therefore you cannot use your normal vampiric abilities/passives. However, as ZOS mentions, as you feed you delve further into darkness. Therefore, not feeding is as close as you can get to retaining your humanity, but you're also a weak vampire and cannot use vampiric abilities. It fits perfectly with their description.

They blatantly state feeding increases the corruption, so not feeding should not corrupt you.

Thing is - you already "corrupted" by Vampirism as soon as you chose to become one. There is even special set of phrases about "corruption" in buff description in character sheet that changing depending on your Stage:

It can be defined as something as trivial as "you can't be pure when you chose to be corrupted", only way is supreme vampirism of Stage 0.

Septimus_Magna · May 2020

Vampire stage 0 would definitely be interesting, maybe with a small disadvantage so there's a benefit in being human if you never use any vamp skills or passives.

Vampire stage 0 effects
Fire damage taken +2.5%
Damage taken from Fighters Guild abilities +10%
Health recovery -10%
While in stage 0 you cannot use any vampire abilities or passives.

Vevvev · May 2020

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

Vampire stage 0 would definitely be interesting, maybe with a small disadvantage so there's a benefit in being human if you never use any vamp skills or passives.

Vampire stage 0 effects
Fire damage taken +2.5%
Damage taken from Fighters Guild abilities +10%
Health recovery -10%
While in stage 0 you cannot use any vampire abilities or passives.

Don't add the fighter's guild abilities in there. There is already a fighter's guild passive that boost all damage against vampires by 20% regardless of their stage.

wills43b14_ESO · May 2020

Other than the redundancy on fighters guild I think that’s not a bad idea.

lucky_Sage · May 2020

wills43b14_ESO wrote: »

@lucky_Sage that is true, but it is mostly true for parse conditions (i.e. very few fights across very few trials) and PvP. Unfortunately, when not utilizing vamp to its fullest, you cannot sustain being a vamp. That is the primary issue I am raising here. Unlike WW, you retain vamp negatives all the time, so you would have to constantly reinfect and cure every time you changed content... which is VERY annoying (especially when you have to redo the quest).

@wills43b14_ESO
If I would do a melee mag build using vamp spammable I’d only be on stage 1 or 2

Lokryn · May 2020

I like this idea! We need some way to opt out for certain content. Plus as a Stamblade, the version on PTS gimps me too much where I would have to cure myself. I would at least like to keep it for RP if nothing else.

wills43b14_ESO · May 2020

@lucky_Sage definitely, the problem is you just can't always be melee. Certain classes will be prioritized for that in some content (if limited spots are available), meaning you can't use the vamp. W/ the 5% cost addition, you're gonna be in trouble in a lot of content w/ sustain being as rough as it is unless you can use BFB or Arterial Burst (and get the SD boost most of the times).

@Lokryn I agree. If that means some kind of cooldown before you can "reactivate" your vampiric abilities, so be it. I'm okay with that. At least there's a potential option there.