Underperforming Racial Passives
-
max_only✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Other than Bosmer what other races have a passive that requires an action (that spends resources)?#FiteForYourRite Bosmer = Stealth
#OppositeResourceSiphoningAttacks
|| CP 1000+ || PC/NA || GUILDS: LWH; IA; CH; XA
""All gods' creatures (you lot) are equal when covered in A1 sauce"" -- Old Bosmeri Wisdom0 -
JobooAGS✭✭✭✭✭
✭RedguardOther than Bosmer what other races have a passive that requires an action (that spends resources)?
Redguard: You have to USE a weapon skill to benefit, which costs mag, ult, or stam
Breton: You have to USE a mag skill to benefit, which costs mag
Orc: You need to sprint which USES stam to benefit
Altmer: Unless you are taking about mark target or repentance you are using resources to proc your passive
Imperial: you need to use skills to benefit, which can cost mag stam, ult, or hpEdited by JobooAGS on May 5, 2020 6:05PM2 -
Ratzkifal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ArgonianOther than Bosmer what other races have a passive that requires an action (that spends resources)?
Redguard: You have to USE a weapon skill to benefit, which costs mag, ult, or stam
Breton: You have to USE a mag skill to benefit, which costs mag
Orc: You need to sprint which USES stam to benefit
Altmer: Unless you are taking about mark target or repentance you are using resources to proc your passive
Imperial: you need to use skills to benefit, which can cost mag stam, ult, or hp
None of those are actually true apart from Altmer who need to use a class ability to gain stamina. All the other examples you listed can make use of their passives simply by light attacking or the use is in reduced cost when using, which is different than having to spend resources to benefit from a passive.
I'd say Argonians comes the closest, because needing to drink a potion is a very strange requirement to benefit from a passive. But everyone constantly drinks potions on cooldown anyway so it's not really detrimental to them at all. Nobody dodgerolls on cooldown however and if you did, you would hurt your stam sustain so much that the 1500 physical penetration doesn't matter anymore.This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.1 -
BXR_Lonestar✭✭✭✭✭
✭ImperialQuite honestly, I'd like to see Bosmer get a slight rework so that they are the clear BIS for bow based DPS. My suggested change would give them an increase in weapon damage similar to Orc when a bow is equipped, or if that is too difficult to implement, then give them additional armor penetration of 2400-3000 when a bow is equipped. You could also make an argument for it to be extra crit change with a bow. I'd be good with any of those passives tbh.
I get that some people want the Bosmer to have a stealth passive similar to Khajit, but lore wise, it seems a little weird for two races to have the exact same passive. I think it'd be fine to have them offer diverging, but still lore friendly bonuses so that there is a clear reason for choosing one over the other. If Bosmer were given the passives I suggested, they'd be clearly better suited for a Bow/Bow build than a Khajit, whereas a Khajit would be better suited for stealth styles of play.2 -
JobooAGS✭✭✭✭✭
✭RedguardOther than Bosmer what other races have a passive that requires an action (that spends resources)?
Redguard: You have to USE a weapon skill to benefit, which costs mag, ult, or stam
Breton: You have to USE a mag skill to benefit, which costs mag
Orc: You need to sprint which USES stam to benefit
Altmer: Unless you are taking about mark target or repentance you are using resources to proc your passive
Imperial: you need to use skills to benefit, which can cost mag stam, ult, or hp
None of those are actually true apart from Altmer who need to use a class ability to gain stamina. All the other examples you listed can make use of their passives simply by light attacking or the use is in reduced cost when using, which is different than having to spend resources to benefit from a passive.
I'd say Argonians comes the closest, because needing to drink a potion is a very strange requirement to benefit from a passive. But everyone constantly drinks potions on cooldown anyway so it's not really detrimental to them at all. Nobody dodgerolls on cooldown however and if you did, you would hurt your stam sustain so much that the 1500 physical penetration doesn't matter anymore.
But you do need to spend resources to use the skill to benefit from the reduced cost? either way you are spending resources to make use of your passive, so not much different. I never did not say that bosmer does need a buff/rework, quite frankly so does redguard, and argonian.Edited by JobooAGS on May 5, 2020 6:59PM1 -
Ratzkifal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ArgonianIronWooshu wrote: »IronWooshu wrote: »Wood Elf has good racials, getting back stealth passives wont move the needle at all except in the direction of peoples personal preferences.
Argonian is the exact same as they always were except for healing received being removed and they were top tier even without that.
Redguard's are the only race that needs some tuning to make them competitive because they really are middling in everything. They dont occupy a top 2 spot in any role or game type. They remain as an option for 3rd best in any given activity among Stamina races.
I play Nord and I am perfectly happy with Nord racials. Imperials are really well rounded for Stamina or Magicka. Orcs are apex tier, Dark Elves are capable of putting out good DPS stamina or magicka. Bretons are best sustain PVE magic users, High Elves are best PVP magic users and Khajiit can put out good DPS Magicka or Stamina.
If you look at each of those races and see they all fill a niche that's top 2 in some aspect of the game, not all aspects however Redguard fills none.
@IronWooshu I don't get how you can say that Redguards are in need of buffs but Bosmer are good. Bosmer and Redguard are sitting in the same boat! Khajiit out-damage them both and take the 3rd spot in stamina DPS. Bosmer and Redguard are equal on 4th because stamina sustain is plenty even on Orcs and Dunmer, making Bosmer and Redguard's core strength obsolete. Unlike Bosmer however, Redguards make for decent tanks thanks to their stamina sustain not being tied to recovery and they also have the cheapest weapon ultimates of all the races, which is a unique niche that's exclusively Redguard.
In terms of dps rank they need to be reexamined under the context of New Moon Acolyte however.
Not every race can be top DPS, where they lack in certain areas they make up for in other areas like Wood Elves being top tier Stamina race for Non CP PVP.
"Non CP PvP" is a lot of limitations to find a niche where Woodelf is good to be honest.
And on the topic of top DPS, it doesn't matter who is on top as long as the others can compete. In otherwords as long as the DPS is not within a sufficiently small/negligible variance, balance has not been achieved and the system needs work.
It's perfectly fine if Redguards and Bosmer have to build differently than Orcs and Dunmer to reach the same numbers, but right now Orcs and Dunmer are consistently better because stamina sustain is not an issue.
Saying "Woodelfs don't need to be able to deal good damage as long as they are top tier in something [with lots of asterisks attached]" is unacceptable. People want to be able to enjoy all parts of the game on their character!Other than Bosmer what other races have a passive that requires an action (that spends resources)?
Redguard: You have to USE a weapon skill to benefit, which costs mag, ult, or stam
Breton: You have to USE a mag skill to benefit, which costs mag
Orc: You need to sprint which USES stam to benefit
Altmer: Unless you are taking about mark target or repentance you are using resources to proc your passive
Imperial: you need to use skills to benefit, which can cost mag stam, ult, or hp
None of those are actually true apart from Altmer who need to use a class ability to gain stamina. All the other examples you listed can make use of their passives simply by light attacking or the use is in reduced cost when using, which is different than having to spend resources to benefit from a passive.
I'd say Argonians comes the closest, because needing to drink a potion is a very strange requirement to benefit from a passive. But everyone constantly drinks potions on cooldown anyway so it's not really detrimental to them at all. Nobody dodgerolls on cooldown however and if you did, you would hurt your stam sustain so much that the 1500 physical penetration doesn't matter anymore.
But you do need to spend resources to use the skill to benefit from the reduced cost? either way you are spending resources to make use of your passive, so not much different. I never did say that bosmer does need a buff/rework, quite frankly so does redguard, and argonian.
That's not the same.
A cost reduction passive is always active. It is never not active. There is no down time to it. There is nothing to that needs to be given up for it to be useful.
The argument about the Bosmer passive is that a dodgeroll is something you do not usually do, especially not when trying to deal damage. Attaching penetration to a dodgeroll means in order for you to gain 1500 penetration you need to spend stamina. The buff is the penetration. Orcs don't need to sacrifice stamina to gain their weapon damage. Redguards do not need to sacrifice stamina to get their weapon ult costs reduced. Argonians would be using potions anyway, so they are not sacrificing anything at all either.
Hunter's Eye has no benefit (ask me why detection is not a benefit
) unless you hurt your resource pool first. That's fine for a purely situational defensive bonus like the movement speed, but not for an offensive bonus like penetration that simply does not work if it's not maxed out at all times. You will either overpenetrate (max potential damage loss), underpenetrate (damage loss) or dodgeroll on cooldown to get your penetration to the cap and lose all of your sustain to the constant rolldodging (meaning damage loss).
If Hunter's Eye granted weapon damage instead of penetration, it would have at least some value in the instances were mechanics force you to rolldodge. But since it's penetration, you gain nothing from it and actually have to sacrifice stamina for it to activate at all. Cost reduction passives are active before you give up resources.
The only scenario in which cost reduction works the same as this is in the case of resource refund, say, if spending 2000 stamina gets you 200 stamina back, which is absolutely useless to you when you are at 1800 stamina. It's not a good design and should definitely be done away with.This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.2 -
JobooAGS✭✭✭✭✭
✭RedguardIronWooshu wrote: »IronWooshu wrote: »Wood Elf has good racials, getting back stealth passives wont move the needle at all except in the direction of peoples personal preferences.
Argonian is the exact same as they always were except for healing received being removed and they were top tier even without that.
Redguard's are the only race that needs some tuning to make them competitive because they really are middling in everything. They dont occupy a top 2 spot in any role or game type. They remain as an option for 3rd best in any given activity among Stamina races.
I play Nord and I am perfectly happy with Nord racials. Imperials are really well rounded for Stamina or Magicka. Orcs are apex tier, Dark Elves are capable of putting out good DPS stamina or magicka. Bretons are best sustain PVE magic users, High Elves are best PVP magic users and Khajiit can put out good DPS Magicka or Stamina.
If you look at each of those races and see they all fill a niche that's top 2 in some aspect of the game, not all aspects however Redguard fills none.
@IronWooshu I don't get how you can say that Redguards are in need of buffs but Bosmer are good. Bosmer and Redguard are sitting in the same boat! Khajiit out-damage them both and take the 3rd spot in stamina DPS. Bosmer and Redguard are equal on 4th because stamina sustain is plenty even on Orcs and Dunmer, making Bosmer and Redguard's core strength obsolete. Unlike Bosmer however, Redguards make for decent tanks thanks to their stamina sustain not being tied to recovery and they also have the cheapest weapon ultimates of all the races, which is a unique niche that's exclusively Redguard.
In terms of dps rank they need to be reexamined under the context of New Moon Acolyte however.
Not every race can be top DPS, where they lack in certain areas they make up for in other areas like Wood Elves being top tier Stamina race for Non CP PVP.
"Non CP PvP" is a lot of limitations to find a niche where Woodelf is good to be honest.
And on the topic of top DPS, it doesn't matter who is on top as long as the others can compete. In otherwords as long as the DPS is not within a sufficiently small/negligible variance, balance has not been achieved and the system needs work.
It's perfectly fine if Redguards and Bosmer have to build differently than Orcs and Dunmer to reach the same numbers, but right now Orcs and Dunmer are consistently better because stamina sustain is not an issue.
Saying "Woodelfs don't need to be able to deal good damage as long as they are top tier in something [with lots of asterisks attached]" is unacceptable. People want to be able to enjoy all parts of the game on their character!Other than Bosmer what other races have a passive that requires an action (that spends resources)?
Redguard: You have to USE a weapon skill to benefit, which costs mag, ult, or stam
Breton: You have to USE a mag skill to benefit, which costs mag
Orc: You need to sprint which USES stam to benefit
Altmer: Unless you are taking about mark target or repentance you are using resources to proc your passive
Imperial: you need to use skills to benefit, which can cost mag stam, ult, or hp
None of those are actually true apart from Altmer who need to use a class ability to gain stamina. All the other examples you listed can make use of their passives simply by light attacking or the use is in reduced cost when using, which is different than having to spend resources to benefit from a passive.
I'd say Argonians comes the closest, because needing to drink a potion is a very strange requirement to benefit from a passive. But everyone constantly drinks potions on cooldown anyway so it's not really detrimental to them at all. Nobody dodgerolls on cooldown however and if you did, you would hurt your stam sustain so much that the 1500 physical penetration doesn't matter anymore.
But you do need to spend resources to use the skill to benefit from the reduced cost? either way you are spending resources to make use of your passive, so not much different. I never did say that bosmer does need a buff/rework, quite frankly so does redguard, and argonian.
That's not the same.
A cost reduction passive is always active. It is never not active. There is no down time to it. There is nothing to that needs to be given up for it to be useful.
The argument about the Bosmer passive is that a dodgeroll is something you do not usually do, especially not when trying to deal damage. Attaching penetration to a dodgeroll means in order for you to gain 1500 penetration you need to spend stamina. The buff is the penetration. Orcs don't need to sacrifice stamina to gain their weapon damage. Redguards do not need to sacrifice stamina to get their weapon ult costs reduced. Argonians would be using potions anyway, so they are not sacrificing anything at all either.
Hunter's Eye has no benefit (ask me why detection is not a benefit) unless you hurt your resource pool first. That's fine for a purely situational defensive bonus like the movement speed, but not for an offensive bonus like penetration that simply does not work if it's not maxed out at all times. You will either overpenetrate (max potential damage loss), underpenetrate (damage loss) or dodgeroll on cooldown to get your penetration to the cap and lose all of your sustain to the constant rolldodging (meaning damage loss).
If Hunter's Eye granted weapon damage instead of penetration, it would have at least some value in the instances were mechanics force you to rolldodge. But since it's penetration, you gain nothing from it and actually have to sacrifice stamina for it to activate at all. Cost reduction passives are active before you give up resources.
The only scenario in which cost reduction works the same as this is in the case of resource refund, say, if spending 2000 stamina gets you 200 stamina back, which is absolutely useless to you when you are at 1800 stamina. It's not a good design and should definitely be done away with.
Like I said, bosmer (along with other races) could use a rework. hunter's eye is a poorly designed passive overall, never was I defending it. In fact, bosmer should get stealth reduction as it fits the lore of a bosmer. If any race should get stealth detect (which in this game is one step above completely useless and imo no race should have it), it should be khajiit. I just hope that zos actually listens to feed back and rework the stam races racials so there would be less angry bosmer mains about stealth and less useless races like redguard and arguably argonian0 -
max_only✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭BXR_Lonestar wrote: »Quite honestly, I'd like to see Bosmer get a slight rework so that they are the clear BIS for bow based DPS. My suggested change would give them an increase in weapon damage similar to Orc when a bow is equipped, or if that is too difficult to implement, then give them additional armor penetration of 2400-3000 when a bow is equipped. You could also make an argument for it to be extra crit change with a bow. I'd be good with any of those passives tbh.
I get that some people want the Bosmer to have a stealth passive similar to Khajit, but lore wise, it seems a little weird for two races to have the exact same passive. I think it'd be fine to have them offer diverging, but still lore friendly bonuses so that there is a clear reason for choosing one over the other. If Bosmer were given the passives I suggested, they'd be clearly better suited for a Bow/Bow build than a Khajit, whereas a Khajit would be better suited for stealth styles of play.
Lore means history. Lore wise this is incorrect. Lore wise Khajiit and Bosmer (and Argonians born under a certain sign, and Dunmer destined for Morag Tong) are all born innately stealthy. Lore wise Khajiit and Bosmer are related by their creator/god/genes. A reason to choose one over the other (if they shared 1 passive) is that one has a tail, fur, cat ears, snout, claws, and the other has none of those. Another reason is that Bosmer have a tradition of cannibalism. Another reason to choose one over the other is that Khajiit are known for melee and Bosmer are known for range. Sharing a passive that, lore wise, they’ve shared for 25 years (and in some games Bosmer are stealthier than Khajiit) is the least weird thing.#FiteForYourRite Bosmer = Stealth
#OppositeResourceSiphoningAttacks
|| CP 1000+ || PC/NA || GUILDS: LWH; IA; CH; XA
""All gods' creatures (you lot) are equal when covered in A1 sauce"" -- Old Bosmeri Wisdom4 -
Cundu_Ertur✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Argonian
You're putting the cart before the horse. No-one wants Bosmer to have something that the Khajiit have. What people want is the bonus to being stealthy that Bosmer have had since Morrowind (Bosmer had double the bonus to hiding that Khajiit had in Morrowind and Oblivion). People want stealthy thief Bosmer (which is what the lore describes), not clumsy guard Bosmer (which is entirely a fabrication by the current cabal of devs) . There is absolutely ZERO evidence from the lore for the garbage hunter passive. Not one shred.BXR_Lonestar wrote: »I get that some people want the Bosmer to have a stealth passive similar to Khajit, but lore wise, it seems a little weird for two races to have the exact same passive. I think it'd be fine to have them offer diverging, but still lore friendly bonuses so that there is a clear reason for choosing one over the other. If Bosmer were given the passives I suggested, they'd be clearly better suited for a Bow/Bow build than a Khajit, whereas a Khajit would be better suited for stealth styles of play.
Taking stealth away from the Bosmer is like taking magic away from the Altmer, making Nords allergic to mead, or making Orcs pretty.2 -
Aptonoth✭✭✭✭✭Argonian
We're not even supposed to be a tank race. We should be a dps race like the ancestors of out past. I would give Argonian's at least something for stamina dps to make me not feel totally useless as dps argonian in dungeons.
1 -
Elwendryll✭✭✭✭✭
✭I really can't vote, I almost exclusively play Khajiit, and I can play any role with my Khajiit Sorc, to a very high level.
I know khajiit get outperformed by other races for stam dps, I can still pull 88.5k, and planning on getting to 90k.
The passives are not optimal for any role, but very flexible, and allow to perform very well at all roles, honestly, even if I still miss the crit chances sometimes, I'm very satisfied of the state of that race right now. I really don't feel like I could ask for a buff, and I don't feel qualified to point at an other race that would be more deserving than others.PC - EU - France - AD
Main character: Qojikrin - Khajiit Sorcerer Tank/Stamina DD - since March 25, 2015.
Guildmaster of Oriflamme: Focus on 4 player endgame content.
Member of Brave Cat Trade, Panda Division and Toadhuggers.
All 4-man trifectas - TTT, IR, GH1 -
Eifleber✭✭✭✭✭Bosmer
I am by no means an expert but at least Argonians are considered the best tanks, wouldn' t that make their passives very useful (if perhaps also a bit one sided)?
❆
Playing since dec 2019 | PC EU1 -
EvilAutoTech✭✭✭✭✭
✭ImperialMy least played races are:
Argonian (I have none left, deleted the only one I ever created to create a Necromancer).
Khajiit (I have 2,just don't like 'em, not sure why)
Imperial (I have 3, including my newest character, my highest level Imperial is 22).
The reason I voted Imperial is because I paid extra for it and I just don't have as much fun with them as I do with other races. They are OK for everything but they are not good for anything.
0 -
Tatanko✭✭✭✭ImperialI voted Imperials, because I feel the Diplomat passive should be giving me even more gold than it already is
0 -
Ratzkifal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ArgonianI am by no means an expert but at least Argonians are considered the best tanks, wouldn' t that make their passives very useful (if perhaps also a bit one sided)?
That depends on what your definition of "the best tanks" is. They haven't been since Wrathstone. They cut out the healing received (which is a somewhat valuable tank stat) and nerfed the potion passive to a more healthy amount for PvP, but gave them nothing back in return. Meanwhile the other races all got buffed, leaving Argonians behind.
Argonians are the third best tank race for what it's worth, since there really are only three.This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.3 -
Mettaricana✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭BosmerCan they just add a 129 wep or spell dmg to the races that got no dmg bonus its lesser than the orc and altmers 256 but gives them a smige more viability in dps choices0 -
alainjbrennanb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭Dunmeri only take the 2nd and last passive from dark elf the rest are not worth itMain character dk - Vanikifar whitestrike0
-
Jaraal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭BosmerRazorback174 wrote: »Bosmer and Argonian. Don't have any Argonians, so I voted Bosmer. They botched that race with what is basically an active skill with the roll dodge garbage, and even more so with the worthless stealth detection. Saddled with 2 PvP-only passives, and extremely niche ones at that. Not worth the skill points.
A passive that is only good in one area of the game is a total failure of a passive (looking at you Spell Recharge). A GOOD passive should be useful in all aspects of this game, be it overland, dungeons, trials, battlegrounds, or Cyrodiil.
Agree 100%. If your passive requires burning resources and losing damage while you’re rolling around on the ground, it’s not a passive. It’s a proc condition. And why penalize PvE players by giving their race a PvP only racial? And Bosmer not being stealthy shows total disregard for a decade of TES lore and tradition.
4 -
Ratzkifal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Argonianalainjbrennanb16_ESO wrote: »i only take the 2nd and last passive from dark elf the rest are not worth it
@alainjbrennanb16_ESO But why? You are throwing away an effective 136 Spell/Weapon damage right there. Even worse yet, with all the stat increasing effects around, you are losing out on even more damage. 20% from CP, 8% for most classes...
That adds up.This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.0 -
alainjbrennanb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭Dunmeralainjbrennanb16_ESO wrote: »i only take the 2nd and last passive from dark elf the rest are not worth it
@alainjbrennanb16_ESO But why? You are throwing away an effective 136 Spell/Weapon damage right there. Even worse yet, with all the stat increasing effects around, you are losing out on even more damage. 20% from CP, 8% for most classes...
That adds up.
the 1st passive is duel wield and 3rd is fire resistance, i have 2n which is mag and 4th which is spell 258Main character dk - Vanikifar whitestrike0 -
Ratzkifal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Argonianalainjbrennanb16_ESO wrote: »alainjbrennanb16_ESO wrote: »i only take the 2nd and last passive from dark elf the rest are not worth it
@alainjbrennanb16_ESO But why? You are throwing away an effective 136 Spell/Weapon damage right there. Even worse yet, with all the stat increasing effects around, you are losing out on even more damage. 20% from CP, 8% for most classes...
That adds up.
the 1st passive is duel wield and 3rd is fire resistance, i have 2n which is mag and 4th which is spell 258
Ah okay. Makes more sense if you count that one. I'd count the dualwield XP passive as passive zero, since it's already unlocked from the start.
If I was in charge of racial passives, I'd add 3m of stealth radius to the fire resistance passive, since Dunmer have always been associated with sneaky assassins before, just like Argonians, Bosmer and Khajiit.This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.0 -
Casterial✭✭✭✭✭
✭I didn't vote, but I saw a high % of ppl talking about Redguard, sorry. If you build Redguard right its a powerful stam race.Edited by Casterial on May 6, 2020 9:33PMDaggerfall Covenant:Casterial Stamplar || Casterial DK || Availed NB || Castyrial Sorc || Spooky Casterial Necro
Member since: August 2013
Kill Counter Developer
For the Daggerfall Covenant
The Last Chillrend Empress
Animation Cancelling0 -
orion_1981usub17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭BosmerBosmer is the only race which requires a resource draining action to get the racial benefits. Dodge rolling in pvp often locks out ability use for two seconds much like a silence. So the dodge roll requirement is what truly drags welfs down.
Its hard to decide how to improve them, but the impen is nice. Maybe faster stealth like a vamp, or the ability to restore health eating like a ww. But if your gonna require dodge rolls, they need a cost reduction racial.5 -
JobooAGS✭✭✭✭✭
✭RedguardI didn't vote, but I saw a high % of ppl talking about Redguard, sorry. If you build Redguard right its a powerful stam race.
And other races WILL be overall better for whatever role you decide. Sustain? Bosmer. The 258 regen is much more than you think, bosmers may say that have a useless passive, but this one passive trumps 2 of Redguard’s passives even with weapon abilities outside of a training dummy, which no one worth their salt in pvp will be barring lag.Tankiness? Nord or Imperial. Damage? Orc or Dunmer.Edited by JobooAGS on May 6, 2020 10:31PM2 -
barney2525✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Remove Passive Races !!!
wait.... is that what he said ..... oh .....
Nevermind
0 -
max_only✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭barney2525 wrote: »Remove Passive Races !!!
wait.... is that what he said ..... oh .....
Nevermind
What’s a passive race? Two sloads seeing who can nap the fastest?#FiteForYourRite Bosmer = Stealth
#OppositeResourceSiphoningAttacks
|| CP 1000+ || PC/NA || GUILDS: LWH; IA; CH; XA
""All gods' creatures (you lot) are equal when covered in A1 sauce"" -- Old Bosmeri Wisdom0 -
Ratzkifal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ArgonianI didn't vote, but I saw a high % of ppl talking about Redguard, sorry. If you build Redguard right its a powerful stam race.
And other races WILL be overall better for whatever role you decide. Sustain? Bosmer. The 258 regen is much more than you think, bosmers may say that have a useless passive, but this one passive trumps 2 of Redguard’s passives even with weapon abilities outside of a training dummy, which no one worth their salt in pvp will be barring lag.Tankiness? Nord or Imperial. Damage? Orc or Dunmer.
Let's do the maths.
Redguards get an effective 380 stamina recovery out of Adrenaline Rush. Bosmer gain 258. Of course we need to add 20% from Major Endurance to that and another 28% from wearing 7 pieces of medium armor and we get...
258*1.48 = 381.84 for noCP PvP (and Battlegrounds) and 258*1.63= 420,54 for everything with CP.
Now we need to adjust for Martial Training. For that we take the two skills almost every stam dps uses in their rotation, those being Endless Hail and Poison Injection.
Maths:Note: I am taking the values straight from my Bosmer Warden and I am not running NMA. Endless Hail morph, because it favors Bosmer.
Poison Injection: 1998/10 - (1998*0.92)/10= 199.8 - 183.8 = 16
Endless Hail: 2597/12 - (2597*0.92)/12 = 216.4 - 199.1 = 17.3
Now we have the stamina saved per second, but not the effective recovery, since recovery happens every two seconds.
So we need to multiply those by two.
Redguards get 66.6 additional effective recovery when using Endless Hail and Poison Injection. Adding those to the 380 from before, they get 446.6 effective recovery. Versus the 420.54 effective recovery Bosmer get, they actually leave with more stamina than Bosmer. Of course whenever a Redguard lets their adrenaline rush lapse, this value is lowered, making it more even between them. Under ideal conditions, not necessarily dummy conditions, Redguard is better in PvE than Bosmer. So the better the player, the better the Redguard.
Paradoxically this makes Redguards superior to Bosmer on Bow setups where it's easier for Redguards to proc their Adrenaline Rush immediately in addition to using Snipe as a spammable, which has not even been factored into the calculation yet.
As for PvP the difference is much less clear. First of all not everyone in PvP is running 7 pieces of Medium armor. Most people are using heavy armor, where Redguards clearly have better sustain. Then there is stamina recovery being completely negated when blocking and sprinting, which you do in PvP more than in PvE. In no-CP a single weapon skill will already make Redguards have more effective stamina recovery.
But there are also a lot of skills and passives buffing recovery, like Continous Attack, Battle Rush and Momentum. Setups using a lot of weapon abilities will prefer Redguard, especially Snipe because of the ease of use it allows for proccing Adrenaline Rush while Bosmer look the best on Two-Handed setups due to Momentum and Battle Rush.
Although it cannot be said with certainty, it looks to me like Redguard is better in noCP PvP and Battlegrounds and worse in CP PvP.
If the build has 5 pieces heavy armor or relies heavily on weapon abilities, like stamSorcs or Snipe spammers, Redguard is better.
If the build has 5 pieces medium armor and uses a two-handed weapon for momentum and execute only, Bosmer is better.This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.2
