Non-Vamp Skill cost increase only when Vamp skill slotted?

Lokryn · May 2020

Is this a good compromise? My main is a Stamblade and I only really see myself using the passives for Stam characters. Why not just add the non-vamp skill increase only if you have a Vamp skill slotted? This allows those of us who want to remain Vampire but use our current builds. We still get the other negative affects (health regen, fire weakness, etc.). Then it also discourages us to use Vamp skills so those that do enjoy going full vampire can still do so.

Anyron · May 2020

No. new passives are too strong to have it without disadvantages. 300wd+sd buff at will, cheaper sprint with invisibility, damage reduction while at low health and dark stalker - who wouldnt take it for only disabled health regen and fire weakness?

20% cost increase is high but it to be vamp has its perks. now on live vamp is used just for min-maxing, for passives - and thats wrong

Vevvev · May 2020

I don't know Anyron.... fight anyone using any sort of flame attacks at stage 4 and you're in for a rough time. And if they brought Dawnbreaker I hope you have enough health and healing to survive.

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe · May 2020

This would be more than fair. I expect some penalties at the peak of vampiric power, but now even at stage 1 there's a penalty for simple existence. The cost increase is an abomination.

John_Falstaff · May 2020

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

This would be more than fair. I expect some penalties at the peak of vampiric power, but now even at stage 1 there's a penalty for simple existence. The cost increase is an abomination.

Makes it fair though, no? Vampire is now an existence, something you have to commit to. You can't say anymore that, well, today I don't feel like being a vampire, and boom, you stop being one; and then, next day (or hour, or minute), you decide that you want to be one, gulp, and you adjust how much of a vampire you are. Looking a things on conceptual level, yes, penalties (and benefits) for existence are fair, because being vampire is a continuous process of existence as an undead being.

Paradisius · May 2020

I personally dont believe the other detriments, in their current PTS form, are high enough to justify a change like this. For example, the Health Recovery reduction is only an inconvenience at stage 4 due to traversal fall damage, but otherwise ignored. And the fire damage is actually lower on the PTS than it is on live (25% At Stage 4 on Live, vs 20% on PTS) if a way to negate the ability cost increase was to not slot vampire abilities, then who would? A reduction of the current ability increase penalty is fine, but if it just doesnt exist if you dont slot vampire abilities in its current form, why would anyone do that when you can get access to passives such as strike from shadows, undeath, and unnatural movement at the cost of only 20% Fire damage and 100% health recovery reduction?

Vevvev · May 2020

John_Falstaff wrote: »

Makes it fair though, no? Vampire is now an existence, something you have to commit to. You can't say anymore that, well, today I don't feel like being a vampire, and boom, you stop being one; and then, next day (or hour, or minute), you decide that you want to be one, gulp, and you adjust how much of a vampire you are. Looking a things on conceptual level, yes, penalties (and benefits) for existence are fair, because being vampire is a continuous process of existence as an undead being.

Vampire has always been defined as an existence in the Elder Scrolls games. People took it because the passives did change how you played the game and included a couple of active abilities to add some flavor. The issue with vampires currently on live is the passive that reduces the health recovery detriment, and the fact there was no real active abilities to make any kind of "Vampire" build. These two together made picking vampire nothing but a boon, especially if you buillt to mitigate the 25% flame damage at stage 4. The interesting thing though is even at stage 1, which has no buffs or debuffs, you are still counted as a daedric entity, which means fighter's guild abilities will do 20% more damage to you. And before you ask, yes some NPCs have fighter's guild abilities like in the Dragonstar Arena so it was not a PVP only issue.

John_Falstaff · May 2020

Vevvev wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

Makes it fair though, no? Vampire is now an existence, something you have to commit to. You can't say anymore that, well, today I don't feel like being a vampire, and boom, you stop being one; and then, next day (or hour, or minute), you decide that you want to be one, gulp, and you adjust how much of a vampire you are. Looking a things on conceptual level, yes, penalties (and benefits) for existence are fair, because being vampire is a continuous process of existence as an undead being.

Vampire has always been defined as an existence in the Elder Scrolls games. People took it because the passives did change how you played the game and included a couple of active abilities to add some flavor. The issue with vampires currently on live is the passive that reduces the health recovery detriment, and the fact there was no real active abilities to make any kind of "Vampire" build. These two together made picking vampire nothing but a boon, especially if you buillt to mitigate the 25% flame damage at stage 4. The interesting thing though is even at stage 1, which has no buffs or debuffs, you are still counted as a daedric entity, which means fighter's guild abilities will do 20% more damage to you. And before you ask, yes some NPCs have fighter's guild abilities like in the Dragonstar Arena so it was not a PVP only issue.

You still can benefit from some passives even at stage 1 after Greymoor, no? Dark stalker, strike from the shadows - not much for PvE, but for PvP it is an advantage, should offset the cost increase at first stage. Plus, new vampire skills are strong, the spammable, the toggle. (Mist is even used in PvE, as an aside.) You can make a PvP build around them. Now, depending on content, in PvE you may end up with vampire stage 1 being just worse sustain without benefits, true. But I think it's a good thing that people will have to give more thought into whether vamp is worth it or not. Is ability to blast through less challenging content with 3k extra spell damage worth permanently having worse sustain? For some, yes, for some, no, but there won't be "why the heck not?".

And... well, I found that first boss in vDSA has same troubles successfully landing dawnbreaker as people in PvP, so it should be mostly harmless given some mechanics awareness.

So on live, don't see how the couple of avoidable cases counterbalance the benefit of vampire. So people run vamp because, well, there's no reason not to. I frankly feel that Greymoor does a right thing by supplying those reasons.

idk · May 2020

I am pretty sure that it would defeat the purpose of some of these changes. It just seems far too obvious.

darthgummibear_ESO · May 2020

Considering that the complete lack of health regen at stage 4 is far worse than what we have on live, in addition to losing the stat regen passive, this would be a good compromise.

Deathlord92 · May 2020

I think that’s a fair compromise good idea 👍

Dracane · May 2020

Anyron wrote: »

No. new passives are too strong to have it without disadvantages. 300wd+sd buff at will, cheaper sprint with invisibility, damage reduction while at low health and dark stalker - who wouldnt take it for only disabled health regen and fire weakness?

20% cost increase is high but it to be vamp has its perks. now on live vamp is used just for min-maxing, for passives - and thats wrong

There is no 300 spell damage at will unless you are a nightblade or someone who has space for mistform. So technically it has a cost and therefor is not handed out freely.

Alucardo · May 2020

Just because you don't have the skills slotted doesn't mean you're not a Vampire. If you don't want to be a Vampire, then don't be. You can't take the good without the bad.

Tessitura · May 2020

Vevvev wrote: »

I don't know Anyron.... fight anyone using any sort of flame attacks at stage 4 and you're in for a rough time. And if they brought Dawnbreaker I hope you have enough health and healing to survive.

Its less then the current flame weakness which is barely noticed. He is right, attaching it to your skills slotted makes the passives a no brainer for all builds. Dawnbreaker is not that big of a deal either, its easy to mitigate with a mistform or one of many other percent mitigation options for damage.

Anyron · May 2020

Dracane wrote: »

Anyron wrote: »

No. new passives are too strong to have it without disadvantages. 300wd+sd buff at will, cheaper sprint with invisibility, damage reduction while at low health and dark stalker - who wouldnt take it for only disabled health regen and fire weakness?

20% cost increase is high but it to be vamp has its perks. now on live vamp is used just for min-maxing, for passives - and thats wrong

There is no 300 spell damage at will unless you are a nightblade or someone who has space for mistform. So technically it has a cost and therefor is not handed out freely.

I belive he said he is Nb
Question. How many players in cyrodiil you see using vamp skills and how many vamps is there?
Unless its broken like drain was, or it is mistform there are no real vamp builds out there. Just mostly stam exploiting vamp passives

Septimus_Magna · May 2020

The cost increase is mainly a problem if you keep using a non-vamp spammable.
I think the cost increase is a bit much, especially in the later stages, something like 3/6/9/12% would be more reasonable.
Stage 4 vamp already comes with serious downsides, add another 20% cost increase on top of that and its just for RPers.

For the vamp abilities I would support scaling the values with the vamp stages to reduce the vamp dmg for lower stages.

Lokryn · May 2020

I would be fine the way it is if Eviscerate had a Stam morph. As far as I can tell, there's no way I can use my Stamblade as a Vampire anymore without gimping myself.

ShadowHvo · May 2020

It is a very good suggestion that I hope they take to heart.

ShadowHvo · May 2020

Alucardo wrote: »

Just because you don't have the skills slotted doesn't mean you're not a Vampire. If you don't want to be a Vampire, then don't be. You can't take the good without the bad.

Duality should always be the key.

But 20% increased ability cost far outweights any of the strengths. Thus the weaknesses are far too severe for the gain.

That is only doubled for Stamina character, due to the overt lack of stamina-centric abilities, which in turn makes the vampire ability cost decrease worthless.

Dracane · May 2020

Lokryn wrote: »

I would be fine the way it is if Eviscerate had a Stam morph. As far as I can tell, there's no way I can use my Stamblade as a Vampire anymore without gimping myself.

You should be fine since roll dodges are not affected by the cost increase and that is where most of your stamina flows into.
I dare say stamina nightblade is one of few specs where the passive benefits of vampire outweight the drawbacks. 1 shot combos will be stronger and fights shorter.

Anyron · May 2020

Lokryn wrote: »

I would be fine the way it is if Eviscerate had a Stam morph. As far as I can tell, there's no way I can use my Stamblade as a Vampire anymore without gimping myself.

no stam morph.. vampire is for magicka.. in elder scrolls lore vampires were always magicka users .. dogos are for stamina players

ElliottXO · May 2020

So this thread is basically about the 'new price' for the dark stalker passive being too high.
Why not instead suggest to move the dark stalker passive into another skill line (thieves guild or legerdemain}?

[Snip]

[Edited for bait]

Lokryn · May 2020

ElliottXO wrote: »

So this thread is basically about the 'new price' for the dark stalker passive being too high.
Why not instead suggest to move the dark stalker passive into another skill line (thieves guild or legerdemain}?

[Snip]
[Edited for bait]

I would love to use Vamp skills but they are all magicka based so that's why I made the suggestion. If they added some Stam morphs, I'd be fine with it as is.

Lokryn · May 2020

Anyron wrote: »

Lokryn wrote: »

I would be fine the way it is if Eviscerate had a Stam morph. As far as I can tell, there's no way I can use my Stamblade as a Vampire anymore without gimping myself.

no stam morph.. vampire is for magicka.. in elder scrolls lore vampires were always magicka users .. dogos are for stamina players

Not true. Quarra and Berne vampires were warriors and rogues, respectively.