Please give us more options for Stealthy fun!

Eryn_Darkthorn · May 2020

My favorite games to play have always include sneaking/thieving. It was my favorite thing in Ultima Online(Yes I am the rare older lady gamer) when we could pickpocket other players. It's the reason I loved Morrowind and Skyrim. It's the thing that keeps drawing me back to this game, even though my husband and kids love FFXIV a lot more. ESO does Stealth better than any other MMO, and it is a system wholly unique to this game! However, It seems like It is getting more and more limited. First it was the racial changes. To be the best you couldn't choose wood elf or Khajit -only Khajit. So I made a bunch of cat characters even though they aren't as pretty as my little barbarian wood elf girls

So from the launch of Elswyr to now the most effective thief ensemble has been: A Khajit Darloc Brae 4, Night Mother 5, Night Terror 3 and Vampirism stage 4 for the no movement speed penalty. It is so much fun! I enjoy the daily TG and DB quests and pickpocketing runs(and even with this setup they can be challenging). It's been great! The only downside has been UGLY characters. I have tried the same ensemble on an Imperial instead of a Khajit and I am discovered *a lot* more often. So yes the Khajit bonus a large difference. It is viable on another race, just not perfect.

The vampire changes are really going to cause issues. I never wanted to be a vampire anyway - Take the ugly eyes with you!! But I do want to stealth effectively and quickly. In order to replace the vampire's abilities you have to go 5 into Night's Silence. That's huge and not worth it! It will make Khajit the *only* viable choice for sneaky characters. For a game that prides itself on it's open playstyle, this doesn't fit. My suggestion is to add a movement speed talent to Thieves guild, Dark Brotherhood, or Legerdemain. Make it hard if you want- make it a Legerdemain 20 skill(and count the money from Crown store skill line purchases). But please give us another option besides a vampire that no longer works well with stamina at all(if it ever did).

A_Silverius · May 2020

They won't

Eryn_Darkthorn · May 2020

A_Silverius wrote: »

They won't

They made those changes when they were wanting to boost Khajit numbers for Elswyr. Maybe things have changed. *shrugs* It never hurts to ask and I can't be the only one that wishes that it were different. The lack of pretty(except for the one pretty Breton face and the one Wood Elf) is what keeps people like my daughter( a great tank) playing games like FFXIV instead of ESO. Zos has a reputation for listening more than Blizzard or other studios.

Starlock · May 2020

Quick question - why do you feel the need to be what you believe is the "most effective?" Isn't that a restraint you're putting on yourself?

I point this out because I've had no trouble doing stealthy stealthy on multiple characters, who aren't Khajiit, or running anything approximating what others might consider "best in slot" for that purpose. And honestly? I find stealth so trivially easy on my character that's somewhat optimized for it it stops being that exciting when I know I can never be spotted or always get away from anything. I actually have to think about it more on my other characters.

Your mileage may vary, of course.

MartiniDaniels · May 2020

If you race changed at least one of those characters not by free tokens, this means ZOS achieved what they wanted - pushed players to buy tokens (or at least adventurer pack or that pack for 2k which had ton of outdated cosmetics, but race change + name change for half price as well).

Jaraal · May 2020

Eryn_Darkthorn wrote: »

So from the launch of Elswyr to now the most effective thief ensemble has been: A Khajit Darloc Brae 4, Night Mother 5, Night Terror 3 and Vampirism stage 4 for the no movement speed penalty. It is so much fun! I enjoy the daily TG and DB quests and pickpocketing runs(and even with this setup they can be challenging). It's been great! The only downside has been UGLY characters.

Play a Nightblade and slot Concealed Weapon. Then you can be pretty again.

https://eso-skillbook.com/skill/concealed-weapon

Or drop one of your stealth radius sets and craft yourself a set of Night's Silence.

https://eso-sets.com/set/nights-silence

Also, the Improved Sneak medium armor passive reduces the size of your detection area by 5% per piece of medium armor equipped, as well as reduces the stamina cost of sneaking by 7% per piece. So try medium armor and buy the passive if you haven't already done so.

Jaraal · May 2020

Three stealth reduction sets is basically redundant with the Khajiit stealth passive. If you're a nerfed Bosmer, or any other race, it's helpful. But smart play is more important in making you go undetected than depending on set help after a certain point. My Khajiit thieves don't require more than 2 stealth sets plus the medium armor stealth radius reduction passive to reach the cap, so they wear Night's Silence and are nightblades with Concealed Weapon. That makes them maximally efficient. My Bosmer main was retired as a thief when he could no longer achieve the best combination of speed and stealth with the crazy racial passive changes of February of 2019.

Theft is my primary source of income in game, I've made well over 100 mil in gold from it over the years. So efficiency is my primary concern, rather than looking good doing it. But try the Night's Silence set or play a nightblade if it is important to you.

Eryn_Darkthorn · May 2020

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

If you race changed at least one of those characters not by free tokens, this means ZOS achieved what they wanted - pushed players to buy tokens (or at least adventurer pack or that pack for 2k which had ton of outdated cosmetics, but race change + name change for half price as well).

Right! Think of the money they could make if they changed it back! Win win!

max_only · May 2020

After 5 years they removed a 25 yr legacy feature from something I already purchased.

Either they don’t care and forgot, or they’re too proud to admit mistakes, or they will sell you the solution in Antiquities. . Whatever the reason all we can do is keep posting.

Lannharr · May 2020

Honestly I would like to see more content related to Dark Brotherhood and Thieves Guild

Commancho · May 2020

Honestly I have done all DB/TG achievements on my DK tank while wearing heavy armor LOL

Ratzkifal · May 2020

Commancho wrote: »

Honestly I have done all DB/TG achievements on my DK tank while wearing heavy armor LOL

And there are people who finished dark souls using an electric guitar. That doesn't mean everyone enjoys playing it that way.

Everstorm · May 2020

Jaraal wrote: »

Eryn_Darkthorn wrote: »

So from the launch of Elswyr to now the most effective thief ensemble has been: A Khajit Darloc Brae 4, Night Mother 5, Night Terror 3 and Vampirism stage 4 for the no movement speed penalty. It is so much fun! I enjoy the daily TG and DB quests and pickpocketing runs(and even with this setup they can be challenging). It's been great! The only downside has been UGLY characters.

Play a Nightblade and slot Concealed Weapon. Then you can be pretty again.

https://eso-skillbook.com/skill/concealed-weapon

Or drop one of your stealth radius sets and craft yourself a set of Night's Silence.

https://eso-sets.com/set/nights-silence

Also, the Improved Sneak medium armor passive reduces the size of your detection area by 5% per piece of medium armor equipped, as well as reduces the stamina cost of sneaking by 7% per piece. So try medium armor and buy the passive if you haven't already done so.

Do you really think thay someone who is so into stealth play like the OP doesn't know the basics?

Jaraal · May 2020

Everstorm wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

Eryn_Darkthorn wrote: »

So from the launch of Elswyr to now the most effective thief ensemble has been: A Khajit Darloc Brae 4, Night Mother 5, Night Terror 3 and Vampirism stage 4 for the no movement speed penalty. It is so much fun! I enjoy the daily TG and DB quests and pickpocketing runs(and even with this setup they can be challenging). It's been great! The only downside has been UGLY characters.

Play a Nightblade and slot Concealed Weapon. Then you can be pretty again.

https://eso-skillbook.com/skill/concealed-weapon

Or drop one of your stealth radius sets and craft yourself a set of Night's Silence.

https://eso-sets.com/set/nights-silence

Also, the Improved Sneak medium armor passive reduces the size of your detection area by 5% per piece of medium armor equipped, as well as reduces the stamina cost of sneaking by 7% per piece. So try medium armor and buy the passive if you haven't already done so.

Do you really think thay someone who is so into stealth play like the OP doesn't know the basics?

Apparently, since they are complaining about having to be an "ugly vampire" to move quickly in stealth, when there are other options. And I know I've learned a lot from reading threads that I didn't start myself, so I'm sure there are others reading who will appreciate the knowledge, even if the you and the OP don't.

Aptonoth · May 2020

Stealth needs another pass and I think making the Morag Tong playable with Telvani Peninsula someday would be a great way to do it. I think for absolute certain we need to be able to distract npc's a few times. Maybe even ranged assassination unlocked with the Tong or poison?

Wandering_Immigrant · May 2020

I have two stealth play characters. One is a Bosmer Stam nightblade, He wears full leather 5 night silence and 3 night terror, rest of his gear is hundings because because I find it to be a good mix of being able to make quick work of any overland fights while also being able to go into stealth mode at will. He goes on pick pocket sprees, lockbox hunts and the instanced theive's guild quests like that and never has a problem.

My other is also a Bosmer, she's a warden and wears full leather 5 Jailbreaker with swift jewelry, 4 Darloc Brea, 3 night terror on the front bar, her backbar just swaps the Jailbreaker and Brae so she losses the speed from Jailbreaker but gains the recovery from Brae, but retains the jewelry from Jailbreaker so she still gets the swift bonus speed. I went with Jailbreaker over night's silence for her because she's actually my crafter and gatherer so I wanted a speed bonus while both stealthed and not stealthed. I haven't yet done thieve's guild with her, she's mostly just a klepto, picking pockets and opening lock boxes while in town doing her crafter business. But she never has trouble sneaking through delves and public dungeons undetected for skyshards and dailies so when I do get around to doing theive's guild with her, which I plan to, I expect she'll be fine.

Neither is a vampire. My point is just that you don't need to be fully optimized for stealth play. Not that I would mind new and interesting mechanics added to stealth play, but I don't see added universal passive sources of stealth speed and radius as being particularly new or or interesting.

Deathlord92 · May 2020

My Breton a very stealthy assassin I have no problems completing contracts for the dark brotherhood never been caught or the thieves guild and I’m literally using my pvp sets 5 new moon acolyte 5 spriggan 2 blood spawn. But it would be nice for reduces detection radius passive and movement speed while in stealth.

BlueRaven · May 2020

Let’s face it, compared to the standard ES games, stealth gameplay is basically nonexistent.

Look at Skyrim;

So much possibility for making stealth gameplay interesting. Instead we have eso which insists things like Bosmers are stealthy they go to a particular tailor, not because of their nature or upbringing. And that stealth vs dps need to be a trade off.

Stealth gameplay is so mimimized, so basic in eso. It’s like putting a plain AM radio in a car and then claiming it as an entertainment system. Yeah, it’s there but really it’s just an exercise in minimum effort.

Chaos2088 · May 2020

Really wish they would revisit the Thieves Guild quests where you go and steal stuff.....make the reward bigger to make it worth doing. Also Dark Brotherhood......if contracted to kill someone, surely the gold reward would be abit more that what is it currently....

Eryn_Darkthorn · May 2020

Jaraal wrote: »

Three stealth reduction sets is basically redundant with the Khajiit stealth passive. If you're a nerfed Bosmer, or any other race, it's helpful. But smart play is more important in making you go undetected than depending on set help after a certain point. My Khajiit thieves don't require more than 2 stealth sets plus the medium armor stealth radius reduction passive to reach the cap, so they wear Night's Silence and are nightblades with Concealed Weapon. That makes them maximally efficient. My Bosmer main was retired as a thief when he could no longer achieve the best combination of speed and stealth with the crazy racial passive changes of February of 2019.

Theft is my primary source of income in game, I've made well over 100 mil in gold from it over the years. So efficiency is my primary concern, rather than looking good doing it. But try the Night's Silence set or play a nightblade if it is important to you.

Okay.. but this is a forum where they take suggestions on ways to improve the game. If you could look cool(Bosmer - Non Vampire) *and* be swift wouldn't you like that? Why is it so hard to agree that it might be cool to change things?

I read you other comments, and I mentioned Night's Silence in my Original Post. I had forgotten that one NB passive, but I had read about all the recent NB nerfs so I haven't been playing on that class. It also doesn't addresss the other 75% movement you lose when not a vampire. As a matter of fact, your above quote is exactly what i am complaining about. I have to be either Khajit, or Other stam race+Vamp to be effective or waste 5 set pieces on Night's Silence. .

But yeah.. why bother asking or thinking about how things could change when we can just sit back and poke holes and be jerks... Don't worry I learned my lesson.

Jaraal · May 2020

Eryn_Darkthorn wrote: »

But yeah.. why bother asking or thinking about how things could change when we can just sit back and poke holes and be jerks... Don't worry I learned my lesson.

Ok, I see that the disconnect is your thread is about getting ZOS to make changes to the stealth system. I was thinking more about what we can do with the tools available to us. Well, let me share my experience about that with you.

As for getting ZOS to make changes to the stealth system: you'd have better luck spending two dollars to get the winning Powerball ticket.

We had an 80 page thread about combat devs removing a decade's worth of Bosmer stealth lore on a whim. It got completely ignored, and finally closed by ZOS because they were tired of us discussing it. We have opened numerous other threads about stealth, and they have gone 100% ignored. When we protested the racial changes on the test server, they told us they were looking into other options/systems for stealth gameplay ...... but even inquiries about those promises have been met with silence.

So, on the one hand, I applaud you for trying to get them to make positive changes to the stealth system, but on the other hand, I lament how ignored your request will be. I didn't mean anything to be personally insulting to you, it's just my inner frustrated Bosmer jerk self trying to come out. I will banish him back to the retirement home at the Thieves Guild for now. Please accept my sincerest apologies!

Cireous · May 2020

While we are asking for more options with sneaky stuff, can we also get more magicka based sets with similar sneak functionality? I love that she could piece together all of that extra sneak radius using sets that have 3 and 4 piece bonuses that allow for it. Only thing is, they are all stamina sets. Why not magicka too?

I'd also like some "more speed while sprinting" thrown into the sets, as well, irrespective of the expedition buffs.

Wandering_Immigrant · May 2020

Eryn_Darkthorn wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

Three stealth reduction sets is basically redundant with the Khajiit stealth passive. If you're a nerfed Bosmer, or any other race, it's helpful. But smart play is more important in making you go undetected than depending on set help after a certain point. My Khajiit thieves don't require more than 2 stealth sets plus the medium armor stealth radius reduction passive to reach the cap, so they wear Night's Silence and are nightblades with Concealed Weapon. That makes them maximally efficient. My Bosmer main was retired as a thief when he could no longer achieve the best combination of speed and stealth with the crazy racial passive changes of February of 2019.

Theft is my primary source of income in game, I've made well over 100 mil in gold from it over the years. So efficiency is my primary concern, rather than looking good doing it. But try the Night's Silence set or play a nightblade if it is important to you.

Okay.. but this is a forum where they take suggestions on ways to improve the game. If you could look cool(Bosmer - Non Vampire) *and* be swift wouldn't you like that? Why is it so hard to agree that it might be cool to change things?

I read you other comments, and I mentioned Night's Silence in my Original Post. I had forgotten that one NB passive, but I had read about all the recent NB nerfs so I haven't been playing on that class. It also doesn't addresss the other 75% movement you lose when not a vampire. As a matter of fact, your above quote is exactly what i am complaining about. I have to be either Khajit, or Other stam race+Vamp to be effective or waste 5 set pieces on Night's Silence. .

But yeah.. why bother asking or thinking about how things could change when we can just sit back and poke holes and be jerks... Don't worry I learned my lesson.

Well my take, or reasoning if you will, is this. I find a large part of the fun in having stealth characters, or any sort of niche or themed characters really, is in building them. Working around their weaknesses, compensating where I have to and accentuating where I can until I come to a balance that I'm happy with.

So I'm generally against any proposed changes that would introduce a draw-back free universal option that would supersede all other options. My stealthy characters literally are, as you say, cool looking and swift non-vampire Bosmers, in fact the Warden is quite cute in that sassy tough girl kind of way, though the Nightblade is a bit shifty looking and not someone I'd want my sister bringing home, "but at least he's not a Vampire!" she'd say. Anyway, they're both also very successful in the thieving department. If accomplishing the same were as simple as leveling ledgerman, or some similarly non-committal easy button, then they wouldn't exist, because all of my characters would be equally stealthy.

As I said earlier, I'm not opposed to new mechanics to enhance stealth play. I think someone else mentioned the idea of distraction tactics, that would be cool. But the game already has plenty of ways to enhance movement speed and stealth radius to choose from.

That's my opinion anyway, sorry if I'm being
a jerk, we can't all agree all the time though like some kind of hive-mind, that'd be weird.

Wandering_Immigrant · May 2020

Cireous wrote: »

While we are asking for more options with sneaky stuff, can we also get more magicka based sets with similar sneak functionality? I love that she could piece together all of that extra sneak radius using sets that have 3 and 4 piece bonuses that allow for it. Only thing is, they are all stamina sets. Why not magicka too? I'd also like some "more speed while sprinting" thrown into the sets, as well, irrespective of the expedition buffs.

I think the logic there is that sneaking costs stamina, so even if you had a magika based stealth set you'd still want to get stam from somewhere to sustain it. So they just include it in the set.

Eryn_Darkthorn · May 2020

Jaraal wrote: »

Eryn_Darkthorn wrote: »

But yeah.. why bother asking or thinking about how things could change when we can just sit back and poke holes and be jerks... Don't worry I learned my lesson.

Ok, I see that the disconnect is your thread is about getting ZOS to make changes to the stealth system. I was thinking more about what we can do with the tools available to us. Well, let me share my experience about that with you.

As for getting ZOS to make changes to the stealth system: you'd have better luck spending two dollars to get the winning Powerball ticket.

We had an 80 page thread about combat devs removing a decade's worth of Bosmer stealth lore on a whim. It got completely ignored, and finally closed by ZOS because they were tired of us discussing it. We have opened numerous other threads about stealth, and they have gone 100% ignored. When we protested the racial changes on the test server, they told us they were looking into other options/systems for stealth gameplay ...... but even inquiries about those promises have been met with silence.

So, on the one hand, I applaud you for trying to get them to make positive changes to the stealth system, but on the other hand, I lament how ignored your request will be. I didn't mean anything to be personally insulting to you, it's just my inner frustrated Bosmer jerk self trying to come out. I will banish him back to the retirement home at the Thieves Guild for now. Please accept my sincerest apologies!

I am sorry I took you the wrong way. Thank you for responding with thoughtfulness. I rarely read these forums, and tend to mostly just lurk the reddit forums for news. Thank you for giving me the historical context. I got the sense that they really wanted a lot of Khajit players playing in Elswyr and so made the changes to make the expansion work better. I quit shortly after I completed Elswyr to go and remake my Vanilla Wow rogue for the Wow Classic launch debacle lol...

Cundu_Ertur · May 2020

Wandering_Immigrant wrote: »

Cireous wrote: »

While we are asking for more options with sneaky stuff, can we also get more magicka based sets with similar sneak functionality? I love that she could piece together all of that extra sneak radius using sets that have 3 and 4 piece bonuses that allow for it. Only thing is, they are all stamina sets. Why not magicka too? I'd also like some "more speed while sprinting" thrown into the sets, as well, irrespective of the expedition buffs.

I think the logic there is that sneaking costs stamina, so even if you had a magika based stealth set you'd still want to get stam from somewhere to sustain it. So they just include it in the set.

Shadow dancer overland set in Greenwood is light armor, and mostly for magicka users; but also includes the night silence 'move quick in sneak' 5-piece bonus. Aside from that, yeah. All stam. Bet bet is to have 3 bits of Night Terror as jewelry or one weapon and a necklace or something. Kind of wrecks having other sets, though. There are several majicka thieves/assassins in the lore and in the game; but the actual gameplay doesn't lend itself to that.

Wandering_Immigrant · May 2020

There's darloc Brae too, which is agnostic stat-wise. Still medium but, medium armor has the sneak passives, so even if there where light armor stealth radius sets they'd be half as effective as medium one.

max_only · May 2020

Other than fixing what is broken a memento for a noise maker/distraction stone would be a great new gameplay option. Not a skill, but something in the quick slot. And since it’s a memento it can’t be used in pvp.

I’ve asked for it before some years ago back when I was still interested in playing the stealth game. Since the death of my most developed (and most expensive) characters it’s not any kind of improvement that would win me back all by itself.

Wandering_Immigrant · May 2020

max_only wrote: »

Other than fixing what is broken a memento for a noise maker/distraction stone would be a great new gameplay option. Not a skill, but something in the quick slot. And since it’s a memento it can’t be used in pvp.

I’ve asked for it before some years ago back when I was still interested in playing the stealth game. Since the death of my most developed (and most expensive) characters it’s not any kind of improvement that would win me back all by itself.

I like it. I envision it as something you throw to an area rather than targeting an NPC, so it would have a ground AOE mechanic where any NPCs within it's radius would turn to face the center.

If it were me designing it I would do it as an alchemy consumable, with higher level solvents used in making it creating a larger radius.

As far as PvP it would just work like taunt where it doesn't affect player characters.

Cireous · May 2020

Wandering_Immigrant wrote: »

Cireous wrote: »

While we are asking for more options with sneaky stuff, can we also get more magicka based sets with similar sneak functionality? I love that she could piece together all of that extra sneak radius using sets that have 3 and 4 piece bonuses that allow for it. Only thing is, they are all stamina sets. Why not magicka too? I'd also like some "more speed while sprinting" thrown into the sets, as well, irrespective of the expedition buffs.

I think the logic there is that sneaking costs stamina, so even if you had a magika based stealth set you'd still want to get stam from somewhere to sustain it. So they just include it in the set.

Outside of Night's Silence, they are all medium armor. Nothing about any of the sets she listed translates well to Magicka/Light armor players, unfortunately. I wouldn't want to wear Stamina/Medium armor--armor I can't do anything with at all outside of its sneak uses. As a Magicka Nightblade Khajiit Vampire, I want set items that make sense to slot into my builds. So, Light armor with a Magicka focus and 3 item set/4 item set/5 item set bonuses with reduced radius detection and increased movement speed. Also, I don't run out of stamina sneaking around stealing, anyways

To be clear, I am looking for sets to slot into my regular, run-around-and-do-everything-in-the-Overland builds. Overland questing and group encounters can easily be accomplished in these sneak sets for Stamina players, but not for Magicka players. I don't care if I don't have the medium armor passives for reduced radius detection and sprinting faster. I would be happy with whatever I could get from the non-existent Magicka sets that have it. The ones in my dreams.

Jaraal · May 2020

Cireous wrote: »

To be clear, I am looking for sets to slot into my regular, run-around-and-do-everything-in-the-Overland builds.

That's one thing we miss about the Bosmer characters we invested heavily into for five years. The ability to not have to carry around special gear we had to change into every time we saw something worth taking. Sure, you still sacrificed a little fighting efficiency to wear one or two stealth oriented sets, but it allowed us to play quickly and fluidly, without having to swap out our whole gear package to avoid detection and bounties. And it felt good because we were Bosmer, and everybody knew from playing Elder Scrolls games that we were supposed to be sneaky.

I still see new folks all the time asking why wood elves arent stealthy in this particular TES game. What can we tell them? Only that somebody at ZOS decided we needed to be something different from who we really are. It's like pretending to be wood elves, without the benefits of being wood elves. And we get to have it constantly stuck in the back of our minds that we are fake, we are pretenders..... we are some sort of Imperial or Breton with our little Bosmer masks on, scrunching down to make ourselves look small and cute and trying to blend in with the forest. Except Imperials are actually stealthier than we fake Bosmer, because Imperials get a racial cost reduction to stealth that we don't.