Underperforming Racial Passives

Agenericname · April 2020

SidraWillowsky wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Clinical trials? LOL

We already know how most people will vote. We tend to want a buff to the race we tend to play.

I genuinely think that Bosmer passives are the worst. Of course part of that is that it's my preferred race, but I actually play Breton for all of my mag chars (I do not think that Bosmer need to be balanced so that they can be viable mag toons- IMO they are very much a stam race) and don't think that Bosmer need to be made to necessarily pull higher DPS. I just think that the stealth changes they made are utterly nonsensical.

Agree, it feels like they missed their mark with Bosmer. I don't play them and still feel like the decision to do that was ill conceived.

Ratzkifal · April 2020

Argonian

I voted Argonian because everything is coming together there.

Lore: Argonians are resistant to both poison and diseases. Their racial passives don't reflect that even though they could. It would not harm balance either, as physical resistance decreases poison and disease damage as well and Nords have a lot more of that, so a weaker more exclusive resistance on a tank race would not break balance.

Balance standard: Back when the item-set-bonus budget was introduced as a standard, 2% healing done was considered a full set bonus. Since then this bonus was increased in all sets to 4% but not for Argonians. They should have been buffed to 12% from their current 6%. They are mathematically the weakest race because they received less boni than the rest. Having a lot of their power gated behind potions that cost gold and/or materials is also putting them behind.

Meta: Within the meta, sustain races are weaker in general as damage dealers because sustain in trial situations is abundant.
For supports, especially tanks, having a bonus benefitting the group in some form is essential in determining what race to pick. Nords and Imperials both have boni to their ultimate cost/generation so they come out on top due to their Warhorn uptime. Furthermore any real tank needs more stamina than magicka so that synergies provide them with the resource that they use for blocking. Due to their bonus magicka, Argonians need to invest more into stamina than Nords and Imperials, which could otherwise go into health making it even harder for them than necessary.
As for healers, healing is currently abundant, so stronger heals are usually wasted to overheal unlike bonus sustain or spell damage which is pretty much never wasted. Only in niche situations do strong heals matter, like Moongrave Fane hardmode or tombs when fighting Lokkestiiz for example. However, because the bonus to their healing is so small, most of the time the spell damage bonus Altmer receive actually results in larger healing done.
In PvP Argonians "shine" thanks to the resettability their potion passive provides but due to the nature of the passive, resources or healing of the passive can be wasted if you are running low on only one. This makes their health and resource bars more volatile than that of Imperials who also gain a mathematically bigger bonus to sustain in all three attributes than them anyway. Meaning that an Imperial won't be forced into a situation where they need to drink a potion as often as an Argonian.

Conclusion: Argonians are the weakest race, no matter the content, and have major conflicts between their race's lore and the bonuses they receive. No other race has problems as big as them in all of these regards at the same time.

Edit: fixed a number that was incorrect. Apparently Argonians have even less bonus healing done than i thought.

max_only · April 2020

5cript wrote: »

Argonians are too unflexible compared to other races.
Healer or meh-PvP build.

Unkillable Argonian wardens are all over cp cyro with maximum troll builds though.

IronWooshu · April 2020

Wood Elf has good racials, getting back stealth passives wont move the needle at all except in the direction of peoples personal preferences.

Argonian is the exact same as they always were except for healing received being removed and they were top tier even without that.

Redguard's are the only race that needs some tuning to make them competitive because they really are middling in everything. They dont occupy a top 2 spot in any role or game type. They remain as an option for 3rd best in any given activity among Stamina races.

I play Nord and I am perfectly happy with Nord racials. Imperials are really well rounded for Stamina or Magicka. Orcs are apex tier, Dark Elves are capable of putting out good DPS stamina or magicka. Bretons are best sustain PVE magic users, High Elves are best PVP magic users and Khajiit can put out good DPS Magicka or Stamina.

If you look at each of those races and see they all fill a niche that's top 2 in some aspect of the game, not all aspects however Redguard fills none.

IronWooshu · April 2020

Ratzkifal wrote: »

I voted Argonian because everything is coming together there.

Lore: Argonians are resistant to both poison and diseases. Their racial passives don't reflect that even though they could. It would not harm balance either, as physical resistance decreases poison and disease damage as well and Nords have a lot more of that, so a weaker more exclusive resistance on a tank race would not break balance.

Balance standard: Back when the item-set-bonus budget was introduced as a standard, 2% healing done was considered a full set bonus. Since then this bonus was increased in all sets to 4% but not for Argonians. Although they were buffed from 6% to 8%, they should have been buffed to 12%. They are mathematically the weakest race because they received less boni than the rest. Having a lot of their power gated behind potions that cost gold and/or materials is also putting them behind.

Meta: Within the meta, sustain races are weaker in general as damage dealers because sustain in trial situations is abundant.
For supports, especially tanks, having a bonus benefitting the group in some form is essential in determining what race to pick. Nords and Imperials both have boni to their ultimate cost/generation so they come out on top due to their Warhorn uptime. Furthermore any real tank needs more stamina than magicka so that synergies provide them with the resource that they use for blocking. Due to their bonus magicka, Argonians need to invest more into stamina than Nords and Imperials, which could otherwise go into health making it even harder for them than necessary.
As for healers, healing is currently abundant, so stronger heals are usually wasted to overheal unlike bonus sustain or spell damage which is pretty much never wasted. Only in niche situations do strong heals matter, like Moongrave Fane hardmode or tombs when fighting Lokkestiiz for example. However, because the bonus to their healing is so small, most of the time the spell damage bonus Altmer receive actually results in larger healing done.
In PvP Argonians "shine" thanks to the resettability their potion passive provides but due to the nature of the passive, resources or healing of the passive can be wasted if you are running low on only one. This makes their health and resource bars more volatile than that of Imperials who also gain a mathematically bigger bonus to sustain in all three attributes than them anyway. Meaning that an Imperial won't be forced into a situation where they need to drink a potion as often as an Argonian.

Conclusion: Argonians are the weakest race, no matter the content, and have major conflicts between their race's lore and the bonuses they receive. No other race has problems as big as them in all of these regards at the same time.

You do realize if I were to max stamina on a Imperial and Max stamina on an Argonian wearing the exact same sets with comorans throne drink, they would be 2000 apart in Stamina and unless you are in the 1% of ESO players doing score runs weekly you probably would never max out the potential DPS either class could put out anyways were you would notice a difference.

Saying potions are expensive. Sure but you dont need tri pots to have unbelievable sustain as an Argonian. Make some basic stamina or magicka pots or use potions you find leveling.

Argonians were top tier before racial changes and nothing really changed for them at all except losing healing received. As I explained in a post earlier, all races shouldnt be good at everything. As you said Argonians are top tier PVP.. that's their niche. If you dont like that and want to min max for PVE you would roll optimal race for that.

If your not a score pushing top trial guild player then what the Argonian provides in other aspects not PVP are perfectly fine for any content.

Their tri sustain is godly. So much so its been reworked at least 2 or 3 times now because its been OP.

Ratzkifal · April 2020

Argonian

IronWooshu wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

I voted Argonian because everything is coming together there.

Lore: Argonians are resistant to both poison and diseases. Their racial passives don't reflect that even though they could. It would not harm balance either, as physical resistance decreases poison and disease damage as well and Nords have a lot more of that, so a weaker more exclusive resistance on a tank race would not break balance.

Balance standard: Back when the item-set-bonus budget was introduced as a standard, 2% healing done was considered a full set bonus. Since then this bonus was increased in all sets to 4% but not for Argonians. Although they were buffed from 6% to 8%, they should have been buffed to 12%. They are mathematically the weakest race because they received less boni than the rest. Having a lot of their power gated behind potions that cost gold and/or materials is also putting them behind.

Meta: Within the meta, sustain races are weaker in general as damage dealers because sustain in trial situations is abundant.
For supports, especially tanks, having a bonus benefitting the group in some form is essential in determining what race to pick. Nords and Imperials both have boni to their ultimate cost/generation so they come out on top due to their Warhorn uptime. Furthermore any real tank needs more stamina than magicka so that synergies provide them with the resource that they use for blocking. Due to their bonus magicka, Argonians need to invest more into stamina than Nords and Imperials, which could otherwise go into health making it even harder for them than necessary.
As for healers, healing is currently abundant, so stronger heals are usually wasted to overheal unlike bonus sustain or spell damage which is pretty much never wasted. Only in niche situations do strong heals matter, like Moongrave Fane hardmode or tombs when fighting Lokkestiiz for example. However, because the bonus to their healing is so small, most of the time the spell damage bonus Altmer receive actually results in larger healing done.
In PvP Argonians "shine" thanks to the resettability their potion passive provides but due to the nature of the passive, resources or healing of the passive can be wasted if you are running low on only one. This makes their health and resource bars more volatile than that of Imperials who also gain a mathematically bigger bonus to sustain in all three attributes than them anyway. Meaning that an Imperial won't be forced into a situation where they need to drink a potion as often as an Argonian.

Conclusion: Argonians are the weakest race, no matter the content, and have major conflicts between their race's lore and the bonuses they receive. No other race has problems as big as them in all of these regards at the same time.

You do realize if I were to max stamina on a Imperial and Max stamina on an Argonian wearing the exact same sets with comorans throne drink, they would be 2000 apart in Stamina and unless you are in the 1% of ESO players doing score runs weekly you probably would never max out the potential DPS either class could put out anyways were you would notice a difference.

Saying potions are expensive. Sure but you dont need tri pots to have unbelievable sustain as an Argonian. Make some basic stamina or magicka pots or use potions you find leveling.

Argonians were top tier before racial changes and nothing really changed for them at all except losing healing received. As I explained in a post earlier, all races shouldnt be good at everything. As you said Argonians are top tier PVP.. that's their niche. If you dont like that and want to min max for PVE you would roll optimal race for that.

If your not a score pushing top trial guild player then what the Argonian provides in other aspects not PVP are perfectly fine for any content.

Their tri sustain is godly. So much so its been reworked at least 2 or 3 times now because its been OP.

@IronWooshu I'm afraid you didn't understand what I was getting at. The difference being noticed about stam pools is for tanks. You need more max stamina than max magicka if you are blocking with a shield. And let's be real, ice staves are so bad and clunky and unreliable that Argonians being better at ice staff tanking than Imperials is not really worth mentioning. Also a difference of 2000 max stamina is a difference of 145 effective weapon damage, which is not nothing.

The point about potions is the following. Every race has 6.5 item set boni worth of racial passives. Argonians have one passive tied to potions. So Argonians need to use potions to get the same bang for their buck as the other races. But Imperials have more sustain on all three attributes than Argonians do even when they spam potions as soon as they come off cooldown. I was not even only talking about tripots, but let's talk about other potions specifically. If an Argonian uses Brutality potions as their source for Major Brutality, then they need to use that potion whether their stamina is full or not. Imperials can use the same potion but don't lose out on any of their stamina sustain over the duration of the cooldown while Argonians are missing out on their racial passive completely if they waste their resources.
The point is not that potions are too expensive or too hard to come by. The point is that their power is inseparably tied to potions and potion cooldowns and comes only as one big chunk instead of an over-time effect, which comes with its fair share of disadvantages no other race has. Potion cooldown glyphs are also not strong enough to make up for that weakness.

Argonians were top tier before racial changes and a lot changed aside from losing healing received. Their potion passive was a lot stronger before Wrathstone. The potion passive was nerfed hard but not entirely gutted.
Then every other race was buffed significantly, leaving Argonians at the bottom of the barrel with nothing they can call their own. You are right, no race should be good at everything. But every race should be good at something.

It's not that Argonians are unplayable, but Argonians are worse healers than Bretons; worse at magicka DPS than Bretons, Dunmer and Altmer; worse tanks than Imperial and Nord; worse at stamina dps than Redguards, Bosmer, Khajiit, Dunmer and Orc; worse at stealth than Khajiit, worse at tri-sustain than Imperials.
Argonians have the best tri-sustain of all non-paid-for races. That is their niche.

Ratzkifal · April 2020

Argonian

IronWooshu wrote: »

Wood Elf has good racials, getting back stealth passives wont move the needle at all except in the direction of peoples personal preferences.

Argonian is the exact same as they always were except for healing received being removed and they were top tier even without that.

Redguard's are the only race that needs some tuning to make them competitive because they really are middling in everything. They dont occupy a top 2 spot in any role or game type. They remain as an option for 3rd best in any given activity among Stamina races.

I play Nord and I am perfectly happy with Nord racials. Imperials are really well rounded for Stamina or Magicka. Orcs are apex tier, Dark Elves are capable of putting out good DPS stamina or magicka. Bretons are best sustain PVE magic users, High Elves are best PVP magic users and Khajiit can put out good DPS Magicka or Stamina.

If you look at each of those races and see they all fill a niche that's top 2 in some aspect of the game, not all aspects however Redguard fills none.

@IronWooshu I don't get how you can say that Redguards are in need of buffs but Bosmer are good. Bosmer and Redguard are sitting in the same boat! Khajiit out-damage them both and take the 3rd spot in stamina DPS. Bosmer and Redguard are equal on 4th because stamina sustain is plenty even on Orcs and Dunmer, making Bosmer and Redguard's core strength obsolete. Unlike Bosmer however, Redguards make for decent tanks thanks to their stamina sustain not being tied to recovery and they also have the cheapest weapon ultimates of all the races, which is a unique niche that's exclusively Redguard.
In terms of dps rank they need to be reexamined under the context of New Moon Acolyte however.

Ratzkifal · April 2020

Argonian

max_only wrote: »

5cript wrote: »

Argonians are too unflexible compared to other races.
Healer or meh-PvP build.

Unkillable Argonian wardens are all over cp cyro with maximum troll builds though.

@max_only I am pretty sure that is a CP Cyro Warden thing rather than an Argonian thing ^^

Rye_puff · April 2020

Bosmer

5cript wrote: »

Argonians are too unflexible compared to other races.
Healer or meh-PvP build.

I agree even though I love Argonians. Tank Argonian is okay too but I feel like other races do it better.

Somewhere · April 2020

Bosmer

By and large I think the weakest is bosmer. I haven't used a bosmer but just by looking there is 0 incentive to do so. At the very least the penetration they gain shouldn't be conditional on a roll dodge. It should be on all the time, no questions asked.

Argonian is a bit underwhelming because their potion passive comes down to a conditional sustain tool, but it's alright. They should absolutely receive more magicka though.

Khajiit is not nearly as some of the others but since its stats are spread across every health, magic, and stamina they don't shine anywhere. I suppose that is the point but in a game where you are encouraged to specialize, their passives do seem a bit disappointing. I would definitely prefer the old crit rate instead of crit damage.

Tommy_The_Gun · April 2020

Argonian

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Balance standard: Back when the item-set-bonus budget was introduced as a standard, 2% healing done was considered a full set bonus. Since then this bonus was increased in all sets to 4% but not for Argonians. Although they were buffed from 6% to 8%, they should have been buffed to 12%. They are mathematically the weakest race because they received less boni than the rest. Having a lot of their power gated behind potions that cost gold and/or materials is also putting them behind.

The were not. Argonians still have 6% healing bonus.
https://eso-skillbook.com/skillline/argonian

MartiniDaniels · April 2020

Redguard

Ratzkifal wrote: »

max_only wrote: »

5cript wrote: »

Argonians are too unflexible compared to other races.
Healer or meh-PvP build.

Unkillable Argonian wardens are all over cp cyro with maximum troll builds though.

@max_only I am pretty sure that is a CP Cyro Warden thing rather than an Argonian thing ^^

Yeah. 95% of stamdens I see are nords. Argonians are only some 1vX tanky troll builds and they are pretty rare.

xaraan · April 2020

I think the racial balance pass they did was badly done.

Is the gap smaller? Sure, that was a low bar however. Is the gap between races as small as it should be and could be? No. Is it hard to get that gap smaller? No. So it shouldn't have been done so badly. Granted, this is coming from an endgame perspective, someone doing 20k dps and just questing and the like won't notice much difference (and wouldn't have before either).

Just changing a couple of the strong passives and making the % bonuses into flat numbers did most of the closing the gap work. So let's not pretend like it was some hardcore balancing work they did. Stat density is a buzzword I've heard from devs and class reps too often in the last couple years which makes me think someone has latched onto that word without concern for context of the stats. This has caused issues with balance from racials to set bonuses and more.

With that being said, a few tweaks to most of the classes could do a lot. It looks like Bosmer were not left in the best place. Redguard aren't horrible, but probably going from BiS stam to meh wasn't a great feeling and could use a little love. And Argonian is constantly hampered by the illusion of how strong the potion passive is.

I've gone from having all Argonians to swapping into some other races, not so much for meta, just out of the desire to want to mix up my characters some. And I can tell you, in pve and even PvP where some say the potion passive shines - you barely notice it's gone, especially when you weigh the benefits of some of the passives you get from other races. As it stands, Argonian is 2nd in tanking (a role that's already the least popular), last in magdps excluding stam races, not on stamdps consideration outside of just for the heck of it, and arguably a top choice for healer (but that is more mixed now imo). I'd either like to see them made more useful for magicka dps or given a little love in stam to at least make a stam argonian as meh as they are in magicka build.

High Elf and Orc are overtuned. There is a reason that every build guide lists those two races as the first choice for mag and stam dps. Lowering their damage bonuses a bit probably would have made them a bit more balanced. Not sure why zos seems like they can only change those numbers in certain chunks (coding reasons I don't know?) but even dropping the spell/wpn damage bonus they get by 15-20% (not in half) could have made a big difference. But bringing down only two over-tuned races a smidge will make the larger number of races more balanced with those two (instead of trying to buff five different races by varying amounts).

Khajiit's aren't horrible, but they probably should have split their crit bonus up between damage and chance. They went from giving them bonus in one in PTS, to giving them a bonus in the other. I'd have just put some into both, it would have given them that crit chance of sometimes having a great fight without it being as drastic a swing as it was on PTS. Giving them a little bonus chance + a little bonus crit damage would have offered the best of both worlds imo.

And on some of the flat numbers on various races, they could alter them in smaller ways. I know we all like even numbers, but having everything be 750 or 1000 or 1250 or 2000, etc. is sticking to that a little too hard. If khajiit for example felt almost there, maybe bumping them to 800 per stat instead of 750 would be a little nudge. Or dropping a bonus from 2K to 1900 bonus, etc. I'm not suggesting we go crazy and make bonus 1438 or something messy and random like that. But we could definitely make some 50 point adjustments to nudge balance a smidge one way or the other.

Cundu_Ertur · April 2020

Argonian

IronWooshu wrote: »

This poll and these reasonings are going to be so biased towards a person's favorite race and their own personal preference for that race.

Let ZoS crunch the numbers of least race played for Trials and PVP and go from there.

Actually, I voted against myself. I have 4 Bosmeri, who are (at this point) my only 4 CP700+ characters. My level 42 Dunmer is catching up. I have 1 Argonian who is a crafting mule. Sadly the name 'Carries-much-Crap' was already taken. I have been less-than-quiet about my hatred for the Bosmer nerf over the past year; but honesty compels me to acknowledge that Argonians actually have it worse.

Ratzkifal · April 2020

Argonian

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Balance standard: Back when the item-set-bonus budget was introduced as a standard, 2% healing done was considered a full set bonus. Since then this bonus was increased in all sets to 4% but not for Argonians. Although they were buffed from 6% to 8%, they should have been buffed to 12%. They are mathematically the weakest race because they received less boni than the rest. Having a lot of their power gated behind potions that cost gold and/or materials is also putting them behind.

The were not. Argonians still have 6% healing bonus.
https://eso-skillbook.com/skillline/argonian

@Tommy_The_Gun Thanks for correcting me. I guess that was just wishful thinking. I'll edit it.

olsborg · April 2020

Redguard

Redguard and bosmer, its close.

ATreeGnome · April 2020

Khajiit

Redguard, Bosmer, Argonian, and Khajiit all definitely need love and Orc could probably use a slight nerf. At least for PvE, I think that Khajiit are in the worst spot, though perhaps not by much. They are just mediocre in every role and always will be no matter how else the meta shifts. Redguard and Bosmer will at least have a chance of being good if sustain gets nerfed. Argonians still make decent tanks and work pretty well for healers who want extra survivability for dealing with mechanics.

RogueShark · April 2020

Redguard

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

I went Bosmer (I don't have any Wood Elves either) but have to reserve an honorable mention for Redguards.

Their first bonus is simply ridiculous, the best thing about it is the movement speed for PvP. The rest are fine but also very uninspired and weak compared to other stamDPS races.

Redguard somehow is the most fragile race according to the bonuses (no health and no resistances, not even elemental ones) which makes no sense from a lore perspective. The snare reduction is so small so as to be useless in PvP.

Their weapon cost reduction is objectively the worst of any of the sustain races and their Stamina return ability does not scale with modifiers and requires combat to proc.

Come to think of it, I want to switch my vote back to Redguard now....

This sums it up pretty good.
Bosmer are more vocal because they're a more popular race and they've suffered the stealth removal, but Bosmer have better racials than Redguard: their sustain is superior, given that Redguard have to be in combat, dealing damage, to get their sustain.

Khajiit could use some help too, there's not really any reason to go Khajiit over Dark Elf. Dunmer is a superior mag/stam race.

Casul · April 2020

Imperial really needs a magicka bonus. I think dropping the HP and Stam to 1500 and adding 1500 Magicka would be ideal

max_only · April 2020

I’m pretty happy with Imperials. I feel like the cost decrease passive is going to come in handy with sets and debuffs in the upcoming content. Already it swims well with the southern Elsweyr set new moon acolyte

Deathlord92 · April 2020

My Breton is an assassin where’s my stamina racial passives at zos ⚔️

JobooAGS · April 2020

Redguard

Ratzkifal wrote: »

IronWooshu wrote: »

Wood Elf has good racials, getting back stealth passives wont move the needle at all except in the direction of peoples personal preferences.

Argonian is the exact same as they always were except for healing received being removed and they were top tier even without that.

Redguard's are the only race that needs some tuning to make them competitive because they really are middling in everything. They dont occupy a top 2 spot in any role or game type. They remain as an option for 3rd best in any given activity among Stamina races.

I play Nord and I am perfectly happy with Nord racials. Imperials are really well rounded for Stamina or Magicka. Orcs are apex tier, Dark Elves are capable of putting out good DPS stamina or magicka. Bretons are best sustain PVE magic users, High Elves are best PVP magic users and Khajiit can put out good DPS Magicka or Stamina.

If you look at each of those races and see they all fill a niche that's top 2 in some aspect of the game, not all aspects however Redguard fills none.

@IronWooshu I don't get how you can say that Redguards are in need of buffs but Bosmer are good. Bosmer and Redguard are sitting in the same boat! Khajiit out-damage them both and take the 3rd spot in stamina DPS. Bosmer and Redguard are equal on 4th because stamina sustain is plenty even on Orcs and Dunmer, making Bosmer and Redguard's core strength obsolete. Unlike Bosmer however, Redguards make for decent tanks thanks to their stamina sustain not being tied to recovery and they also have the cheapest weapon ultimates of all the races, which is a unique niche that's exclusively Redguard.
In terms of dps rank they need to be reexamined under the context of New Moon Acolyte however.

In terms of tanking, Nords and Imperials are better at tanks. Resists, hp, & ult gen, or cost reduction to everything, including ults and BLOCK, more hp, & tri stat regen trumps single stat regen and cost reduction to just weapon skills.

In terms of cheap ults, Nord has faster ult gen and will get their ult before a Redguard, even if it is a weapon ult. Take destro ult, the most expensive weapon ult in the game, costs 250 ult. .92* 250 ult assuming no other ult cost reduction passives will give you a ult cost of 230. Assuming 3.5 ult per second, reasonable due to base + skill passives, it will take you 66 seconds to get a destro ult. A Nord with its 5 ult every 10 seconds will get that same ult on that same class with its base 3.5 ult per second in 63 seconds. Nord gets more obviously faster when you are tying in ult cost reduction passives such as from sorc and templar which diminish redguard’s ult reduction as cost reduction is all multiplicative, and from using cheaper ults to begin with.

TLDR: not saying that Bosmer doesn’t need some love too, but Redguard has no real niche while Bosmer at least is the sustain king/queen.

IronWooshu · April 2020

Ratzkifal wrote: »

IronWooshu wrote: »

Wood Elf has good racials, getting back stealth passives wont move the needle at all except in the direction of peoples personal preferences.

Argonian is the exact same as they always were except for healing received being removed and they were top tier even without that.

Redguard's are the only race that needs some tuning to make them competitive because they really are middling in everything. They dont occupy a top 2 spot in any role or game type. They remain as an option for 3rd best in any given activity among Stamina races.

I play Nord and I am perfectly happy with Nord racials. Imperials are really well rounded for Stamina or Magicka. Orcs are apex tier, Dark Elves are capable of putting out good DPS stamina or magicka. Bretons are best sustain PVE magic users, High Elves are best PVP magic users and Khajiit can put out good DPS Magicka or Stamina.

If you look at each of those races and see they all fill a niche that's top 2 in some aspect of the game, not all aspects however Redguard fills none.

@IronWooshu I don't get how you can say that Redguards are in need of buffs but Bosmer are good. Bosmer and Redguard are sitting in the same boat! Khajiit out-damage them both and take the 3rd spot in stamina DPS. Bosmer and Redguard are equal on 4th because stamina sustain is plenty even on Orcs and Dunmer, making Bosmer and Redguard's core strength obsolete. Unlike Bosmer however, Redguards make for decent tanks thanks to their stamina sustain not being tied to recovery and they also have the cheapest weapon ultimates of all the races, which is a unique niche that's exclusively Redguard.
In terms of dps rank they need to be reexamined under the context of New Moon Acolyte however.

Not every race can be top DPS, where they lack in certain areas they make up for in other areas like Wood Elves being top tier Stamina race for Non CP PVP.

IronWooshu · April 2020

JobooAGS wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

IronWooshu wrote: »

Wood Elf has good racials, getting back stealth passives wont move the needle at all except in the direction of peoples personal preferences.

Argonian is the exact same as they always were except for healing received being removed and they were top tier even without that.

Redguard's are the only race that needs some tuning to make them competitive because they really are middling in everything. They dont occupy a top 2 spot in any role or game type. They remain as an option for 3rd best in any given activity among Stamina races.

I play Nord and I am perfectly happy with Nord racials. Imperials are really well rounded for Stamina or Magicka. Orcs are apex tier, Dark Elves are capable of putting out good DPS stamina or magicka. Bretons are best sustain PVE magic users, High Elves are best PVP magic users and Khajiit can put out good DPS Magicka or Stamina.

If you look at each of those races and see they all fill a niche that's top 2 in some aspect of the game, not all aspects however Redguard fills none.

@IronWooshu I don't get how you can say that Redguards are in need of buffs but Bosmer are good. Bosmer and Redguard are sitting in the same boat! Khajiit out-damage them both and take the 3rd spot in stamina DPS. Bosmer and Redguard are equal on 4th because stamina sustain is plenty even on Orcs and Dunmer, making Bosmer and Redguard's core strength obsolete. Unlike Bosmer however, Redguards make for decent tanks thanks to their stamina sustain not being tied to recovery and they also have the cheapest weapon ultimates of all the races, which is a unique niche that's exclusively Redguard.
In terms of dps rank they need to be reexamined under the context of New Moon Acolyte however.

In terms of tanking, Nords and Imperials are better at tanks. Resists, hp, & ult gen, or cost reduction to everything, including ults and BLOCK, more hp, & tri stat regen trumps single stat regen and cost reduction to just weapon skills.

In terms of cheap ults, Nord has faster ult gen and will get their ult before a Redguard, even if it is a weapon ult. Take destro ult, the most expensive weapon ult in the game, costs 250 ult. .92* 250 ult assuming no other ult cost reduction passives will give you a ult cost of 230. Assuming 3.5 ult per second, reasonable due to base + skill passives, it will take you 66 seconds to get a destro ult. A Nord with its 5 ult every 10 seconds will get that same ult on that same class with its base 3.5 ult per second in 63 seconds. Nord gets more obviously faster when you are tying in ult cost reduction passives such as from sorc and templar which diminish redguard’s ult reduction as cost reduction is all multiplicative, and from using cheaper ults to begin with.

TLDR: not saying that Bosmer doesn’t need some love too, but Redguard has no real niche while Bosmer at least is the sustain king/queen.

The TLDR sums up the entire post. I've been saying Redguard has no real niche they are just middling in every aspect of the game.

IMO they are the race that needs some oomph

almightyalfo · April 2020

Bosmer

Yep I feel Bosmers are bottom tier race in the game right now which is unfortunate since they're one of my favourite races.

max_only · May 2020

Redguards were once on top, to the point where people were complaining they didn’t want to be Redguard but they “were forced to”

Just shows how tables turn with this combat team

Aptonoth · May 2020

Argonian

I want racial to be done away with. Sink of begin forced to pick races for certain classes. That or make racial's pve only abilities.

SosRuvaak · May 2020

Bosmer

i dont even play bosmer

rpa · May 2020

Argonian

Imo race should be purely cosmetic.

Vetixio · May 2020

Bosmer and Redguards need buffs. Also remove the magicka passives from Khajiit and give Imperial's some magicka passives makes a lot more sense for Imperials to have magicka passives than the rugs lore wise. Also give Altmer a weakness to magicka like in the past games but buff their max magicka pool a decent amount and give them their magicka recovery passive back to compensate make it a 'kiss-curse'.