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The vampire cost increase is good because....
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Nova_J✭✭✭✭Ryath_Waylander wrote: »
Dedicate to being a vampire?... that means if one chooses to become one, that would be all they could realistically do in the game on that character. And still be hindered by the drawbacks, and maintaining the form. It is a game for crying out loud!Nemesis7884 wrote: »(to normal skills on stage 4) it forces people to either dedicate themselves to being a vampire or not - same as with werewolves... no just slapping on some passive benefits without truly being living as a vampire and also dedicating a character / rping to it and that is GOOD
less non lore friendly shallow min maxing and more dedication to a theme that comes with benefits and drawbacks
Some people who find the game too easy, seem to have used the vampire remake to convince ZOS to use that form to make the game artificially harder. This should never happen. Noone besides the 0.1% who find the game too easy would ever play a vampire again.
I think you're a little off base here. "Dedicate to being a vampire" doesn't necessarily mean filling your bar with nothing but vampire abilities, wearing black tuxedos with frilly shirts and spending your days down in Riften chatting in the emote channel. It just means that it's no longer little more than a free magicka regen bonus. It makes enough changes that it will alter your playstyle, thus becoming something that requires you put a little more thought into it.
Basically, that dedication is just referring to the fact that if you want the benifits, you're going to have to do something to compensate for the drawbacks because you can't just ignore them anymore.
There is no way I can alter my playstyle to remain an effective vampire healer with these envisioned changes. Maybe it is possible with a dps character. I enjoyed the irony of being a healer and a vampire. ZoS has decided that no, I can't play the way I want. So now I must choose to enjoy helping my guildies as a healer or be a functionally useless vampire. Time to see the light I guess. The fallen Templar must be redeemed.
Exactly, I have a vampire-necro healer that Im having a blast on! There's now no way you I can be anything past stage 1 anymore. I love vampires, have all the movies, all the games, been one on almost every skyrim game. And I loved eso's version of vampire that made allowed me to be able towork around its weakness to stay viable in all endgame content. These changes are treating vamps like a full fledged calss when its not. It only has 6 skills, and NONE of them are for healing my team. There is literally no point in having my character be a vamp anymore unless I make it a dps.
These changes are doing nothing but pigeonholing people into playing one way. I mean seriously the majority of players that even keep being vamps after this are just gonna stay at stage one for the skills. That's it. You're trading people only being vamps for passives, to people only being vamps for 1 or 2 skills. 😑😑
Lol it's funny how people who have "tested" this have all been dps. Because that's all vamps are for now....oh wait im sorry lol it's only for magdps. Maybe a tank, with a strong emphasis on maybe.
Vampires and NOT like the dogs. They were built like the other guilds skill lines to compliment your character/builds and were centered around their passives. Now there isn't even any point to go stage 4. But I love vampires so much that for me personally, that wouldn't be much of a problem if it had no real benefit, but those negatives make it impossible on my healer.
If ZOS wants vamps to be played like that, then they need to add 2 more skill lines.
All in all I'm might have to end up curing my vamps if these changes go live, which is shame because ths whole aesthetic of this toon was based around it being a vamp.
Smh play how you want my a**.
I don't understand why people feel advancing in stages is so necessary. You already get dark stalker at stage 1 now. The stage 2 and 4 passives are entirely new and didn't even exist for Vampires prior to Greymoor. So literally the only thing you are losing from your previous Vampire build by staying at stage 1 is undeath, which is probably the most grossly overrated ability in the game. Frankly the decrease in fire damage you are going to take will more than make up for that in my opinion.
So I think people are stressing way too much over the penalty at higher stages of Vampirism. If the higher stages don't suit you - then just take a pass on it and enjoy the significant buffs to your vampire skills. There is no need to cure your vampire because of this.
.........maybe you did not read the part where I stated I am a necro-healer lol. What vamp abilities can I run and benefit my team with??? And again, I love being a vampire in its fullest state, which in this case is stage 4. Not everybody in this game is worried about putting put the best dps numbers smh. I like to give my characters actual character, meaning that I like my character being a full vampire and not being forced to use stage 1 because anything past that would be a death sentence to my team.
Like seriously it's the same reason why people who like dragons and fire often choose DK's. Or how people who like the feel of being an assassin will go nightblade.
These changes are gonna force me to play a vampire as a dps. If I wanna do anything outside of that have to be at stage 1. I dont look nor do I feel like a powerful vampire at stage 1.
And "significant buffs"? Lol no, nononono. These skill changes are doing nothing but making you work alot harder for exactly the same or slightly higher dps. Now granted that's just from the play test's Ive seen when people compare their current dps to pts dps.
But back to the bigger picture, there is literally no incentive to be a stage 4 vamp.
Think about that.
Stage 4 was supposed to be the pinnacle of vampiric power and now there is no reason to be there. Well unless you wanna have a super niche sprint/cloak nightblade or DK for pvp lol.
They made these changes thinking they were dealing with WW lol. No. The new skills look good and are flashy and all that, but when it comes down to viability they are going to fall short.
And a question for you, do you really not see a problem with people staying at stage 1 just to use the 1 or 2 good abilites? That's literally what people where complaining about players doing on live. Only being a vamp for a few passives. Now I'm only being a vamp but not for the passives but for a skill. ZOS obviously made these changes with the idea that you would be using most if not all the new vamp abilities.
More vampire stages should not = less power.
Less vampire stages should not = more power.
As it is now, one could get all of the vamp abilities and none of the stage 4 bs and put out just as much damage if not more.
Stage 4 is the pinnacle of Vampirirc power. But it's not the pinnacle of your class/healer's power. So I don't think you are looking at it in the correct way. If you want to maintain a balance between your regular class (healer) and your vampire - then a lower stage would be ideal. Stage 4 is for people who want to become full fledged vampires and leave their humanity behind. ^^ Now whether that is effective or not remains to be seen. But that is the idea behind it.
But like I said, I think you are stressing way too much over being stage 4 and your response to me hasn't change my mind. For some reason players have it in their head they must become a stage 4 Vampire or not be one at all and I just don't get it. The new system is designed in such a way that you can choose which stage is best for you. But then again if you don't like any of the Vampire abilities and don't consider them a benefit there is little reason for you to be one at all (at any stage). So if that's how you feel, then yeah, you probably should cure it. The stages are largely irrelevant at that point, because none of them are going to be worth it if you don't consider their abilities beneficial.
Ahhhhhh I see, so the only way for me to be a full vampire now is if I'm putting out damage? Lol good to know.
Lol and forgive me for thinking that being in stage 4 and "leaving my humanity behind" would lead to more power than staying in the same state as a vamp new born smh.
Vampires have always been more than glorified dps, so sad to see that changing.
But it just seems that too many people have a problem with something having strengths lol.
That's how the game describes it, by becoming more "corrupted" at the "cost of your humanity". That's not me speaking there. It's the developers.
But yeah, I think you are essentially correct here. If you want to become a full fledged stage 4 Vampire then being a tank or a healer is probably going to be tricky to pull off under the new system. I'm not saying it's impossible. But it would definitely require a different approach then what you may be used to.
I disagree with your last point, because Vampires are more powerful now then they were prior to Greymoor. They have better abilities and a wider selection. Vampire never had any skills that healed party members. So I don't understand what about Greymoor makes you think it's a step backwards for Vampire healers in terms of skills not being a benefit to the team.
If can be a healer,dps or tank as the vampire is now, but cant be one of those after the changes go through, then yes that is a step backwards. This was supposed to give vamps more options right? It's not doing that at all, it's just making you play one way.
I could still be a vamp from stage 1-4 and do my job perfectly, now that is no longer an option.
I never said they should have had vampire team healing abilities, I said that I wont be able to use my healing abilities at anything past stage 1 without being heavily and unnecessarily penalized. And that was in response to you saying that I should be happy because all of the vamp abilities were buffed.....but I cant use any of them because the character is a healer and those buffs dont mean anything for that toon.
And yes, they have more abilities, but again this just feels like we got more for less.
You can still be a healer or tank as a Vampire. That has not changed. It's not the game's fault if you insist on advancing to stage 4 for no logical reason.
And Vampires never had any skills that healed other players. Nothing has changed in that regard. So again: I don't understand what about Greymoor makes you think you can longer play as a Vampire healer.
What has changed is that the higher stages of Vampire are now reserved for players who want to focus on using Vampirirc abilities. That is all. The stage 2 and 4 passives did not even exist before Greymoor - and they give no direct benefit to healing. And the stage 3 passive is undeath - which also does not directly benefit healing your team.
So again: your entire problem in regards to you feeling like you can no longer play as your healer is entirely of your own making. There is nothing in the game itself that is preventing you from *** it. You just for some reason I cannot understand wish to advance to rank 4 on your healer even though there is no reason to do so.
Haha I already gave you a reason lol, you just act like I havent and continue to run in circles 😂😂. But it's okay, I see this isn't getting anywhere so I'm done with you. I'll just leave it an impasse.8 -
Glurin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Blah blah blah... Yeah right, if some of you don't care about cloak then why go stage 4?
Because right now if your answer to the question of whether or not the penalty is too great is to stay at stage one, then the answer is yes, the penalty is too great and needs to be altered so it's less severe. And this goes for @Jeremy as well. The question is not how to get around the penalty. The question is about the penalty itself.
I tried to explain this to you earlier. Whether the stage 4 penalty is "too great" or not wasn't the point of my comments. I was trying to end all the rampant misinformation out there that it's impossible for a vampire to coexist with their regular abilities due to the ability cost increase. Because that's simply not the case.
Obviously it is if your "solution" is to remain at stage one. You're just undermining your own argument now.
No, that is the solution. There is a reason there are different stages of Vampire. If everyone was suppose to just become stage 4 then what is even the point of having different stages in the first place?
They are there because vampires are supposed to get more powerful as they feed. Not so they become identical drones who don't remember how to cast a damn fireball.
The game says they become more corrupted as they feed. You have to get it out of your head that all builds are suppose to become more powerful by advancing to stage 4. That is not how it works.
You don't seem to understand the concept. You're stuck on this idea that they should essentially be the werewolf's ugly twin brother who's transformed all the time. That is NOT how vampires work. That is NOT how vampires have ever worked. And it is NOT how vampires should work in the future. Tying their hands and forcing them to use specific skills is something that should be locked behind the ultimate transformation. Outside of doing that, the various stages have their own independent effect on the character, but do not and should not limit them to a specific, narrowly defined playstyle.
I suggest you review how vampirism works in Skyrim. Maybe that will get through to you.Edited by Glurin on April 26, 2020 1:13AM"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster...when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss also gazes into you..."11 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Ryath_Waylander wrote: »
Dedicate to being a vampire?... that means if one chooses to become one, that would be all they could realistically do in the game on that character. And still be hindered by the drawbacks, and maintaining the form. It is a game for crying out loud!Nemesis7884 wrote: »(to normal skills on stage 4) it forces people to either dedicate themselves to being a vampire or not - same as with werewolves... no just slapping on some passive benefits without truly being living as a vampire and also dedicating a character / rping to it and that is GOOD
less non lore friendly shallow min maxing and more dedication to a theme that comes with benefits and drawbacks
Some people who find the game too easy, seem to have used the vampire remake to convince ZOS to use that form to make the game artificially harder. This should never happen. Noone besides the 0.1% who find the game too easy would ever play a vampire again.
I think you're a little off base here. "Dedicate to being a vampire" doesn't necessarily mean filling your bar with nothing but vampire abilities, wearing black tuxedos with frilly shirts and spending your days down in Riften chatting in the emote channel. It just means that it's no longer little more than a free magicka regen bonus. It makes enough changes that it will alter your playstyle, thus becoming something that requires you put a little more thought into it.
Basically, that dedication is just referring to the fact that if you want the benifits, you're going to have to do something to compensate for the drawbacks because you can't just ignore them anymore.
There is no way I can alter my playstyle to remain an effective vampire healer with these envisioned changes. Maybe it is possible with a dps character. I enjoyed the irony of being a healer and a vampire. ZoS has decided that no, I can't play the way I want. So now I must choose to enjoy helping my guildies as a healer or be a functionally useless vampire. Time to see the light I guess. The fallen Templar must be redeemed.
Exactly, I have a vampire-necro healer that Im having a blast on! There's now no way you I can be anything past stage 1 anymore. I love vampires, have all the movies, all the games, been one on almost every skyrim game. And I loved eso's version of vampire that made allowed me to be able towork around its weakness to stay viable in all endgame content. These changes are treating vamps like a full fledged calss when its not. It only has 6 skills, and NONE of them are for healing my team. There is literally no point in having my character be a vamp anymore unless I make it a dps.
These changes are doing nothing but pigeonholing people into playing one way. I mean seriously the majority of players that even keep being vamps after this are just gonna stay at stage one for the skills. That's it. You're trading people only being vamps for passives, to people only being vamps for 1 or 2 skills. 😑😑
Lol it's funny how people who have "tested" this have all been dps. Because that's all vamps are for now....oh wait im sorry lol it's only for magdps. Maybe a tank, with a strong emphasis on maybe.
Vampires and NOT like the dogs. They were built like the other guilds skill lines to compliment your character/builds and were centered around their passives. Now there isn't even any point to go stage 4. But I love vampires so much that for me personally, that wouldn't be much of a problem if it had no real benefit, but those negatives make it impossible on my healer.
If ZOS wants vamps to be played like that, then they need to add 2 more skill lines.
All in all I'm might have to end up curing my vamps if these changes go live, which is shame because ths whole aesthetic of this toon was based around it being a vamp.
Smh play how you want my a**.
I don't understand why people feel advancing in stages is so necessary. You already get dark stalker at stage 1 now. The stage 2 and 4 passives are entirely new and didn't even exist for Vampires prior to Greymoor. So literally the only thing you are losing from your previous Vampire build by staying at stage 1 is undeath, which is probably the most grossly overrated ability in the game. Frankly the decrease in fire damage you are going to take will more than make up for that in my opinion.
So I think people are stressing way too much over the penalty at higher stages of Vampirism. If the higher stages don't suit you - then just take a pass on it and enjoy the significant buffs to your vampire skills. There is no need to cure your vampire because of this.
.........maybe you did not read the part where I stated I am a necro-healer lol. What vamp abilities can I run and benefit my team with??? And again, I love being a vampire in its fullest state, which in this case is stage 4. Not everybody in this game is worried about putting put the best dps numbers smh. I like to give my characters actual character, meaning that I like my character being a full vampire and not being forced to use stage 1 because anything past that would be a death sentence to my team.
Like seriously it's the same reason why people who like dragons and fire often choose DK's. Or how people who like the feel of being an assassin will go nightblade.
These changes are gonna force me to play a vampire as a dps. If I wanna do anything outside of that have to be at stage 1. I dont look nor do I feel like a powerful vampire at stage 1.
And "significant buffs"? Lol no, nononono. These skill changes are doing nothing but making you work alot harder for exactly the same or slightly higher dps. Now granted that's just from the play test's Ive seen when people compare their current dps to pts dps.
But back to the bigger picture, there is literally no incentive to be a stage 4 vamp.
Think about that.
Stage 4 was supposed to be the pinnacle of vampiric power and now there is no reason to be there. Well unless you wanna have a super niche sprint/cloak nightblade or DK for pvp lol.
They made these changes thinking they were dealing with WW lol. No. The new skills look good and are flashy and all that, but when it comes down to viability they are going to fall short.
And a question for you, do you really not see a problem with people staying at stage 1 just to use the 1 or 2 good abilites? That's literally what people where complaining about players doing on live. Only being a vamp for a few passives. Now I'm only being a vamp but not for the passives but for a skill. ZOS obviously made these changes with the idea that you would be using most if not all the new vamp abilities.
More vampire stages should not = less power.
Less vampire stages should not = more power.
As it is now, one could get all of the vamp abilities and none of the stage 4 bs and put out just as much damage if not more.
Stage 4 is the pinnacle of Vampirirc power. But it's not the pinnacle of your class/healer's power. So I don't think you are looking at it in the correct way. If you want to maintain a balance between your regular class (healer) and your vampire - then a lower stage would be ideal. Stage 4 is for people who want to become full fledged vampires and leave their humanity behind. ^^ Now whether that is effective or not remains to be seen. But that is the idea behind it.
But like I said, I think you are stressing way too much over being stage 4 and your response to me hasn't change my mind. For some reason players have it in their head they must become a stage 4 Vampire or not be one at all and I just don't get it. The new system is designed in such a way that you can choose which stage is best for you. But then again if you don't like any of the Vampire abilities and don't consider them a benefit there is little reason for you to be one at all (at any stage). So if that's how you feel, then yeah, you probably should cure it. The stages are largely irrelevant at that point, because none of them are going to be worth it if you don't consider their abilities beneficial.
Ahhhhhh I see, so the only way for me to be a full vampire now is if I'm putting out damage? Lol good to know.
Lol and forgive me for thinking that being in stage 4 and "leaving my humanity behind" would lead to more power than staying in the same state as a vamp new born smh.
Vampires have always been more than glorified dps, so sad to see that changing.
But it just seems that too many people have a problem with something having strengths lol.
That's how the game describes it, by becoming more "corrupted" at the "cost of your humanity". That's not me speaking there. It's the developers.
But yeah, I think you are essentially correct here. If you want to become a full fledged stage 4 Vampire then being a tank or a healer is probably going to be tricky to pull off under the new system. I'm not saying it's impossible. But it would definitely require a different approach then what you may be used to.
I disagree with your last point, because Vampires are more powerful now then they were prior to Greymoor. They have better abilities and a wider selection. Vampire never had any skills that healed party members. So I don't understand what about Greymoor makes you think it's a step backwards for Vampire healers in terms of skills not being a benefit to the team.
If can be a healer,dps or tank as the vampire is now, but cant be one of those after the changes go through, then yes that is a step backwards. This was supposed to give vamps more options right? It's not doing that at all, it's just making you play one way.
I could still be a vamp from stage 1-4 and do my job perfectly, now that is no longer an option.
I never said they should have had vampire team healing abilities, I said that I wont be able to use my healing abilities at anything past stage 1 without being heavily and unnecessarily penalized. And that was in response to you saying that I should be happy because all of the vamp abilities were buffed.....but I cant use any of them because the character is a healer and those buffs dont mean anything for that toon.
And yes, they have more abilities, but again this just feels like we got more for less.
You can still be a healer or tank as a Vampire. That has not changed. It's not the game's fault if you insist on advancing to stage 4 for no logical reason.
And Vampires never had any skills that healed other players. Nothing has changed in that regard. So again: I don't understand what about Greymoor makes you think you can longer play as a Vampire healer.
What has changed is that the higher stages of Vampire are now reserved for players who want to focus on using Vampirirc abilities. That is all. The stage 2 and 4 passives did not even exist before Greymoor - and they give no direct benefit to healing. And the stage 3 passive is undeath - which also does not directly benefit healing your team.
So again: your entire problem in regards to you feeling like you can no longer play as your healer is entirely of your own making. There is nothing in the game itself that is preventing you from *** it. You just for some reason I cannot understand wish to advance to rank 4 on your healer even though there is no reason to do so.
Haha I already gave you a reason lol, you just act like I havent and continue to run in circles 😂😂. But it's okay, I see this isn't getting anywhere so I'm done with you. I'll just leave it an impasse.
Fair enough.
But you never really gave me a logical reason as to why it's so important for you to be able to advance to stage 4 and play as your healer. You say you want more "options" - but all stage 4 would do for your healer is give you a passive that doesn't do anything for your healing. So I don't get why having that "option" is so important to you as a healer.
Edited by Jeremy on April 26, 2020 1:16AM1 -
RavemasterCrow✭✭✭
I'm just trying to understand why it is so important for you to advance to stage 4. And thus far, I haven't gotten a good answer to that. Because that's how it works in Skyrim isn't what I would consider a compelling reason to your ruin your build.
And vampires are not limited to specific narrowly defined play styles. It's you who are limiting your Vampire to narrowly defined play styles by insisting to advance to rank 4 because that's what you did on Skyrim.
I made a post back on page 5 that stated, in numbers and passives what people got from being Stage 4 on live - and why Stage 4 on PTS is such a shoddy thing to compare it to.
On PTS being stage 4 might ruin your build (a big reason to not incentivize them to go through with their currently proposed changes), but the very fact that it's like: Yeah, you can still be a Vampire, but rather than getting these neat bonuses that could benefit a wide variety of characters.
Here's a toolset of abilities that don't synch well together - here's some passives that hurt you more than hinder you and try to FORCE you to use the new abilities.
On live, the only difference between Vampire cost reductions at stage 4 is like: 19%...
But on top of that, you're also incurring a 20% increase to EVERY OTHER SKILL AND ABILITY IN THE GAME.
Not to mention a MASSIVE 50% increase to the HP recovery penalty with NO passive like Unnatural Resilience to squash it down to manageable numbers.
They're not wrong to basically call this rework essentially making Vampire a "Magicka Werewolf" because if you're basically forced to use all your Vamp abilities instead of anything else because of the negatives - you might as well not be a Vampire at all.
Which is a sucky thing to hear as someone who's played Stage 4 vamps since back before One Tamriel.11 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭RavemasterCrow wrote: »
I'm just trying to understand why it is so important for you to advance to stage 4. And thus far, I haven't gotten a good answer to that. Because that's how it works in Skyrim isn't what I would consider a compelling reason to your ruin your build.
And vampires are not limited to specific narrowly defined play styles. It's you who are limiting your Vampire to narrowly defined play styles by insisting to advance to rank 4 because that's what you did on Skyrim.
I made a post back on page 5 that stated, in numbers and passives what people got from being Stage 4 on live - and why Stage 4 on PTS is such a shoddy thing to compare it to.
On PTS being stage 4 might ruin your build (a big reason to not incentivize them to go through with their currently proposed changes), but the very fact that it's like: Yeah, you can still be a Vampire, but rather than getting these neat bonuses that could benefit a wide variety of characters.
Here's a toolset of abilities that don't synch well together - here's some passives that hurt you more than hinder you and try to FORCE you to use the new abilities.
On live, the only difference between Vampire cost reductions at stage 4 is like: 19%...
But on top of that, you're also incurring a 20% increase to EVERY OTHER SKILL AND ABILITY IN THE GAME.
Not to mention a MASSIVE 50% increase to the HP recovery penalty with NO passive like Unnatural Resilience to squash it down to manageable numbers.
They're not wrong to basically call this rework essentially making Vampire a "Magicka Werewolf" because if you're basically forced to use all your Vamp abilities instead of anything else because of the negatives - you might as well not be a Vampire at all.
Which is a sucky thing to hear as someone who's played Stage 4 vamps since back before One Tamriel.
I've also played as a stage 4 Vampire since beta. But I love these changes. It's nice being able to freely use my Vampire abilities without having to worry about advancing in stage and incurring the fire damage penalties. I also love the new skills. It was also generous of them to let us grab dark stalker at stage 1. Unlike some others, I don't feel a necessity to have a 4 next to my stage. I personally love being able to stay at stage 1. ^^
But in regards to your post - you may be right in regards to Stage 4 Vampire not being manageable. Time will tell if players can put together some good builds at Stage 4 that focus heavily on Vampire abilities or not. The magicka werewolf comparison is fair I suppose, though only in respect to stage 4. The ability cost penalties are easily dealt with at lower stages so as to allow for varied play in conjunction with other regular abilities. So that concern of mine was muted when I actually got on the PTS.
What baffles me the most about this debate are those players who have no interest in creating an all Vampire build advancing to rank 4. It just doesn't make any sense to me. Let those who actually are interested in creating focused Vampiric builds have those stages. I'm fine with that and don't see how that negatively impedes on my gaming experience as a Vampire in the least. It offers something unique to the skill line and rewards players who want to focus on a single skill set. I'm actually curious to see what they come up with - and would support adding similar themes to other skill sets.Edited by Jeremy on April 26, 2020 1:50AM1 -
Paradisius✭✭✭✭Well, I for one am curious for mondays patch. Should they choose to change vampire detriments id assume it would be done either this Monday or the next, so lets see what they have in store and adjust accordingly0 -
RavemasterCrow✭✭✭
But in regards to your post - you may be right in regards to Stage 4 Vampire not being manageable. Time will tell if players can put together some good builds at Stage 4 that focus heavily on Vampire abilities or not. The magicka werewolf comparison is fair I suppose, though only in respect to stage 4. The ability cost penalties are easily dealt with at lower stages so as to allow for varied play in conjunction with other regular abilities. So that concern of mine was muted when I actually got on the PTS.
What baffles me the most about this debate are those players who have no interest in creating an all Vampire build advancing to rank 4. It just doesn't make any sense to me. Let those who actually are interested in creating focused Vampiric builds have those stages. I'm fine with that and don't see how that negatively impedes on my gaming experience as a Vampire in the least.
Ah, I see. As long as you get to have your cake - you're happy. But everyone else that's negatively impacted by the change weren't entitled to also voice the fact that these changes are (quite probably) going to be horrendous overall?
What you're advocating for is essentially what we had BEFORE the new skill line upgrade. A whole bunch of people, using Vampire as a way to get passive buffs. Except now (like you keep insisting) they also now get active skills (at least, more active skills. Who should just stay Stage 1-2 to manage the heavy penalties with the limited benefits.
And save Stages 3 and 4 for what YOU believe is Vampirism.
Not the rest of us who've been doing Stage 4 (even in content you probably shouldn't be due to fire damage, thank the gods it isn't as bad as it was back then), and using Vampirism as part of our builds from the beginning and not just for the passives.
Who are going to be negatively impacted because it's too expensive resource wise to use our builds now. Or having to change our builds even further to compensate for having our recovery squashed down with a steam roller.
There was a point I was excited for the changes. But after playing on the PTS and testing it on all my different Stage 4 vamps, I can tell you that only 1-2 of them will likely stay stage 4. Because everything else is unmanageable without hyper specializing my set bonuses to make up for the shortcomings. Then losing out on other, key things that make my builds work.6 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭RavemasterCrow wrote: »
But in regards to your post - you may be right in regards to Stage 4 Vampire not being manageable. Time will tell if players can put together some good builds at Stage 4 that focus heavily on Vampire abilities or not. The magicka werewolf comparison is fair I suppose, though only in respect to stage 4. The ability cost penalties are easily dealt with at lower stages so as to allow for varied play in conjunction with other regular abilities. So that concern of mine was muted when I actually got on the PTS.
What baffles me the most about this debate are those players who have no interest in creating an all Vampire build advancing to rank 4. It just doesn't make any sense to me. Let those who actually are interested in creating focused Vampiric builds have those stages. I'm fine with that and don't see how that negatively impedes on my gaming experience as a Vampire in the least.
Ah, I see. As long as you get to have your cake - you're happy. But everyone else that's negatively impacted by the change weren't entitled to also voice the fact that these changes are (quite probably) going to be horrendous overall?
What you're advocating for is essentially what we had BEFORE the new skill line upgrade. A whole bunch of people, using Vampire as a way to get passive buffs. Except now (like you keep insisting) they also now get active skills (at least, more active skills. Who should just stay Stage 1-2 to manage the heavy penalties with the limited benefits.
And save Stages 3 and 4 for what YOU believe is Vampirism.
Not the rest of us who've been doing Stage 4 (even in content you probably shouldn't be due to fire damage, thank the gods it isn't as bad as it was back then), and using Vampirism as part of our builds from the beginning and not just for the passives.
Who are going to be negatively impacted because it's too expensive resource wise to use our builds now. Or having to change our builds even further to compensate for having our recovery squashed down with a steam roller.
There was a point I was excited for the changes. But after playing on the PTS and testing it on all my different Stage 4 vamps, I can tell you that only 1-2 of them will likely stay stage 4. Because everything else is unmanageable without hyper specializing my set bonuses to make up for the shortcomings. Then losing out on other, key things that make my builds work.
I've been a stage 4 Vampire since beta and I was able to adapt to these changes effortlessly.
If players refuse to adapt and keep advancing to rank 4 on builds that it is obviously not intended for, that is just... well, I"ll be polite and say silly. Especially since there is no logical reason to do this. So it's not about me eating my cake and being happy It's about recognizing the need to adapt to changes instead of stubbornly and pointlessly ruining my build for no reason.
In other words: the option to play at stage 1 as your Vampire if you make frequent use of your regular abilities is available to everyone. So no one should have to change their build because of these changes. The addition of the new Stage 4 Vampire doesn't affect anyone unless they choose to let it. It's just a new option for players who want to create Vampiric builds that focus exclusively or nearly so on Vampire abilities. And having that option out there for people to try doesn't negatively affect me or you or anyone else.Edited by Jeremy on April 26, 2020 2:12AM1 -
Deathlord92✭✭✭✭✭
✭
I think it’s cool what they have done with vampire but on the other hand which you aren’t thinking about are the players who love playing a stamina vampire not everyone played a vampire for the recovery some like myself like it for role play and regularly feed to stay at stage 1 so yeah they changes are going to suck for a lot of players and they are aloud to voice there opinions.Paradisius wrote: »Out of what? A roleplaying perspective? You know, I was pretty good with being a vampire for recovery mainly, and the resistance as a little two faced bonus. I know many others do, and that the 10% recovery bonus is the little thing that makes their build viable at all, with that gone - they will need to go less damage, and do something about the recovery. I guess this is part of the idea. Bit why do you find it "good"? I fail to see.
Those of us who regard "roleplaying" as a less important part of the game are just gonna agree, because it's like "lore friendly"?
Well, for the general public its not "good" its a really bad change. But for what the devs wanted to do with the vampire, its "good" in the sense that they achieved such goal. In their reveal live stream and in the patch notes they said they want to force the idea of a more active playstyle of the vampire, at a cost. They acknowledged that most of the player base that were vampires did so for the reasons you stated, the 10% recovery and the damage mitigation. This new update on the vampire is done with the intent to change it to a more active gameplay, where if you pick vampire it is assumed you will use some vampire abilities. Is the current detriment too high at stage 4? perhaps so, but on the flip side if they make the detriment to small then youll see plenty of vampires running invisible and dishing out insane damage with blood frenzy, mainly because the detriments could be ignored. But this is PTS, and I am sure changes will be made, something like them changing progression to 0/5/10/15 would be seen as entirely possible.
It seems to me ZoS can't win. I read constant complaints on this forum from players who are upset at feeling pressured to be an ugly Vampire just for the regen. ZoS changes it to where being a Vampire is more aimed at players who actually want to to play as a Vampire and use Vampire abilities. Now they are pissed they are going to have to cure it because it no longer gives them regen so they are no longer pressured to be something they never wanted to be in the first place. lol
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barney2525✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »Vampirism is a BIG deal, you cannot just become one and ignore it.
It is punishing but at least it will force Vampires to play as Vampires, now if only they did something for Werewolves, maybe have something which would force them into Beast Form, maybe have a chance to transform at night or have some Werewolf Hunter enemies use magic to force you into Beast Form against your will kind of like that quest in Glenumbra.
Also I was on the PTS with a stage 4 Vampire and I had no issue with sustaining, maybe you just don't know how to play the game properly
Oh. You just Had to say it that way. Couldn't just say ' I had no issue with sustain, so there are ways to deal with it'.
No. Had to say ' maybe you just don't know how to play the game properly'. Lovely. That certainly tells us a lot.
And IMHO, you are wrong. Vampirism is no bigger a deal than what race you choose. This is not Minds Eye Theatre. This is Not The Camarilla live action role-play. This is a game of stats. Race, Class, Specialties like Vampirism are all equal, each having benefits and deficiencies.
I don't see any cries about bad wood elf roleplay. or bad Orc roleplay. or bad Templar roleplay. This is Not a game designed for heavy roleplay. The aspects are Flavor for the character, but that is it. There's no holy paladin who fights evil for free and only owns 10 pieces of gear and only keeps a handful of silver.
You make your character from what you, the Player, wants to do in the game, and want to use - emphasis : USE. This is what determines the race and the class and if the player wants to use vampire or werewolf skills as well. What questions do you see on the lists? 'making a stam dragonkight - whats a good race for it?' or for a stam/sorc ? or what best combo to play a solid tank ?
THIS is what this game is all about. Not - If you take vampire skills we Force you to do off the path things that we don't force anyone else to do. Being a vampire is NOT the core of the game. It is a piece of the flavor which is just an option. It has benefits, it has negatives, but it should NOT be the all encompassing aspect of the character who uses it.
It is Not a big deal - In this game
IMHO
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RavemasterCrow✭✭✭
I mean, I get it, I do; "but I took Vampire so I could be OP w/out a lot of consequences, and now that's going away, so I'm mad", but the argument, at it's base, is exactly the same for both sides of this little debate: You're both looking at your own build, and naysaying the other behind what each one of you wants for it. I mean, from my standpoint, the consequences of vampirism should have applied from the very beginning, not late, and should have gotten worse as a character progressed. We're not talking Staff vs Daggers here, after all, we're talking fundamental changes to the character itself. Of course, that may have meant that vampire wouldn't be all that popular, and thus ZoS threw all the would be vamps a bone...
I'm sorry chief, but this ain't it. Very few people, if any, are here arguing because they want to be OP for no consequences. As it is now, like I've stated. I run stage 4 Vampirism on ALL of my Vampires. I put up the numbers on buffs vs debuffs both Live and PTS.
Without Unnatural Resilience:
75% Hp Recovery reduction
25% Fire Damage Taken
21% Reduction Cost of Vampire Skills
Not counting Passives - we'll mosey right on to PTS.
100% HP Recovery reduction.
20% Fire Damage Taken
40% Reduction Cost of Vampire Skills.
20% increase in Cost of Non-Vampire Skills
So, lose 5% fire damage taken. Yay.
But gain 25% Hp recovery reduction while they simultaneously remove the Passive that lessened it's effect. Boo.
19% increase to the Vampire Skill reduction cost. Yay? But they're adding more skills! Yay!
Oh, but all of those skills basically have 0 synergy and seem to have been made to be cherry picked just like people claim is being done now for Vampire passives? Boo.
All your other skills will cost 20% more, basically making anyone that uses abilities outside the Vampire tree dryer than the Gobi Desert. BOO.
The fundamental argument taking place is:
The new Skill Line as it is - offers very little bang, for a HUGE buy in. Other than maybe Oblivion that caused you actual SUN DAMAGE from being outside, I haven't seen such huge negatives for a Vampire.
Even in Skyrim you only lost your recovery in the daylight. Not just ALL THE TIME.
They appear to be skewing the Vampires to basically be the Magicka answer for Werewolves - with 0 thought on how to do that properly.
And it wouldn't be bad - if they weren't revamping the BASE skill line like this. If this was like the Dawnguard quests in Skyrim to become a Vampire Lord, that would be different.
But no, this is retroactively taking out the Vampirism that people have been using for years upon years. And with essentially 0 thought on how to respectfully make the change, just ripping the rug out from under it and replacing it with something that has more FLAVOR but less SUBSTANCE.
Edited by RavemasterCrow on April 26, 2020 4:16AM16 -
Glurin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭robertthebard wrote: »
If players refuse to adapt and keep advancing to rank 4 on builds that it is obviously not intended for, that is just... well, I"ll be polite and say silly. Especially since there is no logical reason to do this. So it's not about me eating my cake and being happy It's about recognizing the need to adapt to changes instead of stubbornly and pointlessly ruining my build for no reason.
There you have it folks. This is all about his build. The rest of us can just go pound sand. The vampire skill line should be exclusively built for his vision and if you don't like it, well you don't have to use it so what's the problem?
So I've been following this debate for the last couple of pages, and I have a serious question:
Why is it ok to ridicule one poster for protecting their build whilst attempting to protect your own?
I mean, I get it, I do; "but I took Vampire so I could be OP w/out a lot of consequences, and now that's going away, so I'm mad", but the argument, at it's base, is exactly the same for both sides of this little debate: You're both looking at your own build, and naysaying the other behind what each one of you wants for it. I mean, from my standpoint, the consequences of vampirism should have applied from the very beginning, not late, and should have gotten worse as a character progressed. We're not talking Staff vs Daggers here, after all, we're talking fundamental changes to the character itself. Of course, that may have meant that vampire wouldn't be all that popular, and thus ZoS threw all the would be vamps a bone...
I'm not. In fact I want vampires to have a wide variety of builds available to them because on a fundamental level that's what they are and what they always have been. An altered state of being. Not a specific build. In fact it was never about the build at all. @Jeremy, on the other hand, seems to think vampires should completely deviate from their root concept and become extremely limited, ultimately being left with essentially one option. Furthermore, if that change doesn't appeal to you, his solution is for you to abandon it and not use it. Which is particularly vexing because this is the time where it is especially important to directly address these kind of concerns rather than avoid them."He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster...when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss also gazes into you..."6 -
Lintashi✭✭✭✭✭Ofc, I could still somehow manage to be healer if I just keep forever on stage 1, but what some people here do not understand, that ALL roles are nerfed in current vampire build. Healers and tanks get 5-20% weaker, and dps, who decide to go full stage 4, will not be able to have better rotation, than nonvamp skills allow you to have now. Even if you go stage 4 with only vampiric abilities, you will be weaker than average men or mer. Werewolfs can make a decent rotation with their limited amount of skills, vampire currently can't. If it stays, up to 90% of vamps will get a cure. And no, I do not play vampire because of passives! I play vampire, because it is integral part of my character, just as his role as healer. I just do not want to be weaker than every other healer, just because I am also vampire. It makes no sense.4 -
robertthebard✭✭✭✭✭robertthebard wrote: »
If players refuse to adapt and keep advancing to rank 4 on builds that it is obviously not intended for, that is just... well, I"ll be polite and say silly. Especially since there is no logical reason to do this. So it's not about me eating my cake and being happy It's about recognizing the need to adapt to changes instead of stubbornly and pointlessly ruining my build for no reason.
There you have it folks. This is all about his build. The rest of us can just go pound sand. The vampire skill line should be exclusively built for his vision and if you don't like it, well you don't have to use it so what's the problem?
So I've been following this debate for the last couple of pages, and I have a serious question:
Why is it ok to ridicule one poster for protecting their build whilst attempting to protect your own?
I mean, I get it, I do; "but I took Vampire so I could be OP w/out a lot of consequences, and now that's going away, so I'm mad", but the argument, at it's base, is exactly the same for both sides of this little debate: You're both looking at your own build, and naysaying the other behind what each one of you wants for it. I mean, from my standpoint, the consequences of vampirism should have applied from the very beginning, not late, and should have gotten worse as a character progressed. We're not talking Staff vs Daggers here, after all, we're talking fundamental changes to the character itself. Of course, that may have meant that vampire wouldn't be all that popular, and thus ZoS threw all the would be vamps a bone...
I'm not. In fact I want vampires to have a wide variety of builds available to them because on a fundamental level that's what they are and what they always have been. An altered state of being. Not a specific build. In fact it was never about the build at all. @Jeremy, on the other hand, seems to think vampires should completely deviate from their root concept and become extremely limited, ultimately being left with essentially one option. Furthermore, if that change doesn't appeal to you, his solution is for you to abandon it and not use it. Which is particularly vexing because this is the time where it is especially important to directly address these kind of concerns rather than avoid them.
From what I'm reading, what they've been mostly is exploited for some passives. I get wanting to be a full on x with the vampire passives, which is what most of these threads are about. Evidently, they've decided that want a vamp to actually be a vamp, instead of x with some passives, and this is how they've chosen to go about it. Is it steep? I don't know, I don't know just how abused this has been, but it's apparently struck more than a few nerves in the "but my build" community.1 -
Glurin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭robertthebard wrote: »From what I'm reading, what they've been mostly is exploited for some passives. I get wanting to be a full on x with the vampire passives, which is what most of these threads are about. Evidently, they've decided that want a vamp to actually be a vamp, instead of x with some passives, and this is how they've chosen to go about it. Is it steep? I don't know, I don't know just how abused this has been, but it's apparently struck more than a few nerves in the "but my build" community.
I don't know that "exploited" is quite the right word. The passives were just kind of, there. The cost of being a vampire was very easy to ignore and they didn't have much in the way of active abilities. And as far as those abilities were concerned, they weren't exactly go to skills either. Not to mention feeding was a non-issue since all that did was take away all the benefits of being a vampire, so avoiding it was more common than not. The only time it came up was if you were facing a particularly dangerous fire based enemy, in which case you just down a double bloody mara and that was that.
The entire design really just felt more like a token nod to the idea than anything. There wasn't really much substance behind it. The new version is a step in the right direction, but what we want to avoid is the whole "magicka werewolf" nonsense. If the ultimate went and changed your bar to all vampire abilities, that would be one thing. It's a vampire lord transformation, or scion if you want to argue semantics. But creating a situation where the only viable abilities at higher stages are those vampire abilities undermines the concept of vampirism as a whole. It's a corruption of the person infected by it. Not a complete transformation.
So, again, the question before us is whether or not that non-vampire skill cost increase is too much. Are we in a situation as it currently stands on PTS where you are outright forced to use only vampire abilities, or is it something that one can adapt to. Truly adapt to. Not just avoid altogether by staying stage one or skipping vampirism entirely."He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster...when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss also gazes into you..."0 -
Opalblade✭✭✭I thought this update was supposed to make vampires want to feed instead of starving themselves like on live. Now unless you run one of a few niche builds with these changes, you'll just end up gimping yourself any time you drink blood. How is it a good thing to punish vampires this severely just for acting like vampires?8 -
Nemesis7884✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭xxthir13enxx wrote: »Only ESO can release new vampire content that leads to vast amount of players hitting the Undo button on vampirism they’ve had for years...
I know right..
I've been out of the loop with the latest eso info regarding the new stuff recently. So I've been withholding my opinion. But after reading here it seems I may have to cure my main character's vampirism because he is a pet sorc who uses no vamp skills. I just wanted the passives for my build and for role play purposes with the improved sneak. The huge skill increase cost would see me out of resources after a few rotations I would imagine.
So for my personal situation as a player who was excited for a revamp of the vamps and bought the expansion specifically for that, it's going to force me to cure myself and not be a vampire on my main like I've always been.
Add this to the vma grind they expect us to do and I'm really not feeling too happy or enthusiastic about the new expansion.
thats a very positive thing for me because it means people no longer just are vampires for a passive without giving 2 cents about being and playing a vampire...2 -
Vetixio✭✭✭✭Yes it will stop people from being a Vampire for the regen, but not everyone was a Vampire anyway and you could complete all content not being a Vampire sometimes it was easier by taking less fire damage etc. The cost increase bit is just nonsensical tho Vampires in lore are gifted Mages, Warriors and Rogues. Yet they certainly wont be if this goes through.Pìerre - Breton Vampire Templar, Grand Overlord. Erádàn - Bosmer Templar, Warlord. Vyríc - Imperial Vampire Necromancer, Centurion. Sybìl - Breton Sorcerer, Centurion. Erìch - Nord Vampire Nightblade, Corporal. Njàll - Nord Templar, Lieutenant. Elánnà - Bosmer Warden, Veteran. Laquì - Redguard Vampire Nightblade, Corporal. Noveni Dres - Dunmer Sorcerer, Lieutenant. Marìnus - Imperial Warden, Veteran. Arvyn Indoril - Dunmer Templar, Sergeant. Rósalyn - Breton Sorcerer, Corporal. Emelîn - Bosmer Dragonknight, Corporal. Astaroth Indoril - Dunmer Sorcerer.2
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Langeston✭✭✭✭✭
✭Attention everyone in this thread that's unhappy about the people that got vampirism for the regen bonus:
Stop what you're doing and go to a Shrine of Stendarr immediately!
Once there, delete your Undaunted Mettle passive. (Unless you're "playing as an Undaunted," of course. But since we all know you're not, go ahead and get rid of it.
While you're at it, delete all Fighters Guild passives on your magicka toons (no more free extra ultimate for you!)
Also, delete any armor passives from skill lines where you are not using 5 pieces of that armor weight. If you're wearing 5 light, you're not "playing as" a medium/heavy armor user, so you shouldn't get the passives.
In the spirit of being thorough, maybe you should just go ahead and also delete any & all weapon passives unless you're actually using at least one weapon skill from that skill line. I dunno.
I'm sure I missed some, so if anyone else has any more arbitrary rules about what skill lines other people should and should not be using based on your own personal tastes and playstyle, please feel free to let me know. Maybe I'll make a post outlining them all — "Rules for how other people that I've never met should play this game."Edited by Langeston on April 26, 2020 1:31PM14 -
kongkim✭✭✭✭✭I like the new changes, it will do so not everyone has to be a vamp, for det extra regen.2
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Erelah✭✭✭✭Because you can't just ignore them. Not only is there an ever present cost to being a vampire, but those passives define the vampire as such.
Plus you're being rather flippant about it when you tell people to just stay at stage one. It's on PTS right now because the devs want feedback on, among other things, whether or not the cost is too severe.
You can just ignore them. Not everyone has to be a stage four Vampire to get all the passives. Players can choose which stage is best for them. And this idea you have that 3 passives define the Vampire sounds kind of silly to me. I would suggest that if anything "defines" the Vampire, it is their active skills.
There is also nothing disrespectful about me suggesting players remain at stage 1 if they plan on making liberal use of their regular abilities. That's called good advice. Stage 4 Vampires are meant to be wholly corrupted and no longer human, so their entire fighting style changes from their previous form. That's what it looks like to me that the developers are aiming for. They don't want a Stage 4 Vampire fighting the same way a Stage 1 Vampire does (who is only slightly corrupted). It's an interesting concept. Nor does me suggesting players stay at Stage 1 if they want to retain much of their regular fighting style prevent anyone from giving feed back. So I don't know what that particular criticism is suppose to mean.
My intention is to counter this false argument that says the new Vampire sucks (no pun intended) because at stage 4 the cost increase is too high for them to use their regular abilities. Because there is a perfectly viable option for them to create a hybrid Vampire/Class build. And that option is called Stage 1. So try it before you knock it. You may be surprised at how little you need those three passives to make good use of the new Vampire abilities.
Your opinion on Vampires is not supported by Zenimax. Vampire Stage 5 as is called in the game with Blood Scion morph has 0 penalties to skills. So when a vampire is the most vampire one can ever become they have no penalties to fire, no health regenation problems, and class skills, cost the same as they used to before they nerfed just to add a vampire stage five to remove all penalties.
Edit: Quote marks was ended at the wrong spot.
Edited by Erelah on April 26, 2020 2:23PM3 -
oregonrob✭✭✭There is a compromise here. Create two vampire families. The first one would have the current vampire skills, and the second one would have the proposed new skills. Run it for a year and then see which one prevails in terms of being selected.2 -
Lord-Otto✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Blah blah blah... Yeah right, if some of you don't care about cloak then why go stage 4?
Because right now if your answer to the question of whether or not the penalty is too great is to stay at stage one, then the answer is yes, the penalty is too great and needs to be altered so it's less severe. And this goes for @Jeremy as well. The question is not how to get around the penalty. The question is about the penalty itself.
I tried to explain this to you earlier. Whether the stage 4 penalty is "too great" or not wasn't the point of my comments. I was trying to end all the rampant misinformation out there that it's impossible for a vampire to coexist with their regular abilities due to the ability cost increase. Because that's simply not the case.
Obviously it is if your "solution" is to remain at stage one. You're just undermining your own argument now.
No, that is the solution. There is a reason there are different stages of Vampire. If everyone was suppose to just become stage 4 then what is even the point of having different stages in the first place?
They are there because vampires are supposed to get more powerful as they feed. Not so they become identical drones who don't remember how to cast a damn fireball.
The game says they become more corrupted as they feed. You have to get it out of your head that all builds are suppose to become more powerful by advancing to stage 4. That is not how it works.
You don't seem to understand the concept. You're stuck on this idea that they should essentially be the werewolf's ugly twin brother who's transformed all the time. That is NOT how vampires work. That is NOT how vampires have ever worked. And it is NOT how vampires should work in the future. Tying their hands and forcing them to use specific skills is something that should be locked behind the ultimate transformation. Outside of doing that, the various stages have their own independent effect on the character, but do not and should not limit them to a specific, narrowly defined playstyle.
I suggest you review how vampirism works in Skyrim. Maybe that will get through to you.
Well if you have a problem with how Vampires work you'll have to take that up with the developers. It's their game, so they decide how Vampires work (not me or you).
I'm just trying to understand why it is so important for you to advance to stage 4. And thus far, I haven't gotten a good answer to that. Because that's how it works in Skyrim isn't what I would consider a compelling reason to your ruin your build.
And vampires are not limited to specific narrowly defined play styles. It's you who are limiting your Vampire to narrowly defined play styles by insisting to advance to rank 4 because that's what you did on Skyrim.
It is NOT ZOS' game. They are shaping a heritage passed down by Bethesda and given life by the players. Bethesda and the players would slap ZOS if they were to retcon Mehrunes Dagon into a random Breton merchant, for example. There are established rules in the Elder Scrolls universe and even ZOS cannot overstep them or this universe loses its form and stops being itself.
Stage 4 vampire is the most vampiric version. Simple. If you wanna play a vampire, you probably wanna get the most vampire out of it.
Speaking of, vampires in TES used to be about the passives. And they did give you increased recovery in previous games. Never did they subtract from your sustain. Of course ZOS' new direction is bound to upset a lot of people who chose vampirism for those passives - in ESO or previous games.
Now, the exception to that was, of course, the famous Vampire Lord. And this is where ZOS went wrong. The Lord with its abilities was restricted to the transformed form. Outside, you were a normal, passive vampire. ZOS have it reversed. Vampires now should use the unique vampire skills, while the Scion only provides passive boni. It is fundamentally different and actually exactly the opposite of "Oh, you wanna be a vampire? Now be a vampire through and through!". Because of this reversal, every single vampire player has the absolute right to be critical of this change.
I have spoken, mortal.4 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Blah blah blah... Yeah right, if some of you don't care about cloak then why go stage 4?
Because right now if your answer to the question of whether or not the penalty is too great is to stay at stage one, then the answer is yes, the penalty is too great and needs to be altered so it's less severe. And this goes for @Jeremy as well. The question is not how to get around the penalty. The question is about the penalty itself.
I tried to explain this to you earlier. Whether the stage 4 penalty is "too great" or not wasn't the point of my comments. I was trying to end all the rampant misinformation out there that it's impossible for a vampire to coexist with their regular abilities due to the ability cost increase. Because that's simply not the case.
Obviously it is if your "solution" is to remain at stage one. You're just undermining your own argument now.
No, that is the solution. There is a reason there are different stages of Vampire. If everyone was suppose to just become stage 4 then what is even the point of having different stages in the first place?
They are there because vampires are supposed to get more powerful as they feed. Not so they become identical drones who don't remember how to cast a damn fireball.
The game says they become more corrupted as they feed. You have to get it out of your head that all builds are suppose to become more powerful by advancing to stage 4. That is not how it works.
You don't seem to understand the concept. You're stuck on this idea that they should essentially be the werewolf's ugly twin brother who's transformed all the time. That is NOT how vampires work. That is NOT how vampires have ever worked. And it is NOT how vampires should work in the future. Tying their hands and forcing them to use specific skills is something that should be locked behind the ultimate transformation. Outside of doing that, the various stages have their own independent effect on the character, but do not and should not limit them to a specific, narrowly defined playstyle.
I suggest you review how vampirism works in Skyrim. Maybe that will get through to you.
Well if you have a problem with how Vampires work you'll have to take that up with the developers. It's their game, so they decide how Vampires work (not me or you).
I'm just trying to understand why it is so important for you to advance to stage 4. And thus far, I haven't gotten a good answer to that. Because that's how it works in Skyrim isn't what I would consider a compelling reason to your ruin your build.
And vampires are not limited to specific narrowly defined play styles. It's you who are limiting your Vampire to narrowly defined play styles by insisting to advance to rank 4 because that's what you did on Skyrim.
It is NOT ZOS' game. They are shaping a heritage passed down by Bethesda and given life by the players. Bethesda and the players would slap ZOS if they were to retcon Mehrunes Dagon into a random Breton merchant, for example. There are established rules in the Elder Scrolls universe and even ZOS cannot overstep them or this universe loses its form and stops being itself.
Stage 4 vampire is the most vampiric version. Simple. If you wanna play a vampire, you probably wanna get the most vampire out of it.
Speaking of, vampires in TES used to be about the passives. And they did give you increased recovery in previous games. Never did they subtract from your sustain. Of course ZOS' new direction is bound to upset a lot of people who chose vampirism for those passives - in ESO or previous games.
Now, the exception to that was, of course, the famous Vampire Lord. And this is where ZOS went wrong. The Lord with its abilities was restricted to the transformed form. Outside, you were a normal, passive vampire. ZOS have it reversed. Vampires now should use the unique vampire skills, while the Scion only provides passive boni. It is fundamentally different and actually exactly the opposite of "Oh, you wanna be a vampire? Now be a vampire through and through!". Because of this reversal, every single vampire player has the absolute right to be critical of this change.
I have spoken, mortal.
I don't have the energy for this silly debate anymore. So I'm just going to make a general rebuttal then be done with it.
These changes to Vampire are awesome for players who are willing to adapt to them. If you do that, then Greymoor is nothing but a boon for players who play as a Vampire. But for those who want to pointlessly advance to stage 4 on builds that use a lot of regular skills it's not designed for... then yeah, it's probably going to suck for them. But I'm not sympathetic, because there is no reason to do this other than to purposely gimp your build for no reason what-so-ever. So those players can go right on ahead and destroy their builds just because it's so important for them to have a number 4 next to their vampire stage for what ever silly reason (and yes, the reasons given in this thread for doing so have been infinitely silly).
I choose to adapt to these changes instead, and my Vampire build is going to be stronger because of it when Greymoor goes live - as will every other Vampire build prior to Greymoor providing the player makes wise decisions about which stage to select. So I would caution everyone reading this thread to wait until you actually try these changes out for yourselves before judging them. They aren't nearly as bad as many on this board are making out. They are - in fact - a very nice buff to Vampires generally - providing you are prepared to work within the new system instead of cling to your own personal beliefs of how it should work instead of how it actually does work.
And to those who became Vampires just for the 10% regen buff.. you can now cure yourself and don't have to worry about becoming something you never wanted to play in the first place. Vampires are now designed for players who actually want to play as Vampires (as it should be). It's not just a passive you have to look "ugly" for.Edited by Jeremy on April 26, 2020 3:34PM2 -
Lintashi✭✭✭✭✭And to those who became Vampires just for the 10% regen buff.. you can now cure yourself and don't have to worry about becoming something you never wanted to play in the first place. Vampires are now designed for players who actually want to play as Vampires (as it should be). It's not just a passive you have to look "ugly" for. [/quote]
Do you even read what people write here? I want to play vampire. I always liked it. I do not care about 10% regen buff. I like my vampiric appearance. I also want to play as healer. I cannot be a good healer, because I am weaker even at stage 1. Is this simple enough? According to you, can vampires play as healers or tanks? Or only damage dealers+stealth? Have you tested damage of vampire stage 4 with only vampire skills on pts, compared to average damage dealing build rotation? Can you please show your results, to prove, that vampire are indeed getting some kind of buff, even if in damage dealing only?12 -
Lord-Otto✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Oh, Jerry... where to even begin...
This debate is indeed silly. Vampires in the whole franchise used to have one characteristic and now it's reversed. No matter how you see it - people will be annoyed and rightly so. How do you think people would react when one day stamina dragonknights woke up to see their class had now the skills of a magicka nightblade? Yes, they could adapt, but this isn't the point. They did not sign up for that, THAT is the point. And it can't be denied.
Your super secret uber build is... yeah, I don't give a crab. If you think a magicka melee spammable and a CC that doesn't work on running people make you OP, well, godspeed. Don't get me wrong, I see the benefits, but you're vastly overestimating them.
But your true colors shine through near the end. You criticize people for choosing vampires for their benefits, the passives. They CHOSE vampires for their unique traits.
Yet, you go ahead and claim they NOW had to choose. No. No, they already did.
It's your remark about the new active abilities that reveals it. You explicitly said vampires SHOULD be defined by active abilities. No. Not in this franchise, buddy. Vampires have always been about the passives. If you like the upcoming changes, that is YOUR opinion. And you are as subjective on the matter as you accuse the current vamp players to be.
But our subjectivity is objectively right. Because this is how vamps have always worked. ZOS are changing the rules and changing what vampires are. That is NOT "how it should be". As I compared to Mehrunes Dagon - ZOS cannot just go ahead and replace Altmer magicka racials with weapon/stamina ones and change them from the best spellcasters to the best warriors because they feel this to be "how it should be". There are rules to make a created world believable and work. Every good writer knows that. So no, ZOS shouldn't tamper with this and this is not "how it should be".8 -
robertthebard✭✭✭✭✭There is a compromise here. Create two vampire families. The first one would have the current vampire skills, and the second one would have the proposed new skills. Run it for a year and then see which one prevails in terms of being selected.
The one that would reap the most rewards with the least actual cost to the player.0 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭And to those who became Vampires just for the 10% regen buff.. you can now cure yourself and don't have to worry about becoming something you never wanted to play in the first place. Vampires are now designed for players who actually want to play as Vampires (as it should be). It's not just a passive you have to look "ugly" for.
Do you even read what people write here? I want to play vampire. I always liked it. I do not care about 10% regen buff. I like my vampiric appearance. I also want to play as healer. I cannot be a good healer, because I am weaker even at stage 1. Is this simple enough? According to you, can vampires play as healers or tanks? Or only damage dealers+stealth? Have you tested damage of vampire stage 4 with only vampire skills on pts, compared to average damage dealing build rotation? Can you please show your results, to prove, that vampire are indeed getting some kind of buff, even if in damage dealing only?[/quote]
I would ask you the same, do you even read what people write here? Because in that quote I was directly talking to people who did become Vampires for just the 10% regen buff.
Just because you didn't, that doesn't mean others did not (and a lot of others did). I know, because I have talked to many of them. So why on earth you thought I was referring to you in that comment is anyone's guess.
And just how is your Vampire healer weaker at stage 1 under these new changes? If you didn't care about the 10% regen the only changes to your healer at stage 1 is you can now use all of your Vampire abilities as much as you want without having to worry about taking massive amounts of fire damage. How is that anything but a buff?
Edited by Jeremy on April 26, 2020 7:27PM2 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Oh, Jerry... where to even begin...
This debate is indeed silly. Vampires in the whole franchise used to have one characteristic and now it's reversed. No matter how you see it - people will be annoyed and rightly so. How do you think people would react when one day stamina dragonknights woke up to see their class had now the skills of a magicka nightblade? Yes, they could adapt, but this isn't the point. They did not sign up for that, THAT is the point. And it can't be denied.
Your super secret uber build is... yeah, I don't give a crab. If you think a magicka melee spammable and a CC that doesn't work on running people make you OP, well, godspeed. Don't get me wrong, I see the benefits, but you're vastly overestimating them.
But your true colors shine through near the end. You criticize people for choosing vampires for their benefits, the passives. They CHOSE vampires for their unique traits.
Yet, you go ahead and claim they NOW had to choose. No. No, they already did.
It's your remark about the new active abilities that reveals it. You explicitly said vampires SHOULD be defined by active abilities. No. Not in this franchise, buddy. Vampires have always been about the passives. If you like the upcoming changes, that is YOUR opinion. And you are as subjective on the matter as you accuse the current vamp players to be.
But our subjectivity is objectively right. Because this is how vamps have always worked. ZOS are changing the rules and changing what vampires are. That is NOT "how it should be". As I compared to Mehrunes Dagon - ZOS cannot just go ahead and replace Altmer magicka racials with weapon/stamina ones and change them from the best spellcasters to the best warriors because they feel this to be "how it should be". There are rules to make a created world believable and work. Every good writer knows that. So no, ZOS shouldn't tamper with this and this is not "how it should be".
The name is Jeremy... not Jerry.
I guess I'll respond since you won't let me end this and say you lose out on one passive you would have otherwise have had before Greymoor by staying at stage 1. And that's undeath. That's it. So to suggest losing access to that single passive is the end of Vampires as we knew it is absurd.
The other two passives are completely new and no build before Greymoor was reliant on having them. Nor was any vampire "defined" by them either, since again: they did not even exist. So this argument you are trying to make that being a Vampire is all about having these two new passives (again - neither of which even existed prior to Greymoor) is just baffling to me, especially considering all of the new active skills that are available to them.
But anyway...and like I said in my post... go ahead and advance your Vampire build that focuses on using regular abilities to stage 4 and suffer because of it. I'm not really "criticizing" you for it. I just think it's a silly and pointless thing to do,... since under the new system the higher stages are designed specifically for builds focused around using Vampiric abilities (not regular abilities). But by all means, ruin your build just because that's how you think it should be. lol
But for those who are not so rigid in their beliefs about what being a Vampire is suppose to be about, they are going to enjoy some substantial buffs to their previous Vampire builds. And MMORPGs "change" all the time. That's something I suggest you get to used to happening, buddy. Because it's not you or me who define how this "franchise" evolves. It's the developers, whether we like it or not. And from a writing perspective it makes perfect sense as to why a Vampire would become more focused on their Vampiric abilites rather than their regular abilities as they feed and become more "corrupted". So your criticism of these changes in that regard makes little sense to me either. The logic behind it is fine.Edited by Jeremy on April 26, 2020 7:21PM2 -
robertthebard✭✭✭✭✭Oh, Jerry... where to even begin...
This debate is indeed silly. Vampires in the whole franchise used to have one characteristic and now it's reversed. No matter how you see it - people will be annoyed and rightly so. How do you think people would react when one day stamina dragonknights woke up to see their class had now the skills of a magicka nightblade? Yes, they could adapt, but this isn't the point. They did not sign up for that, THAT is the point. And it can't be denied.
Your super secret uber build is... yeah, I don't give a crab. If you think a magicka melee spammable and a CC that doesn't work on running people make you OP, well, godspeed. Don't get me wrong, I see the benefits, but you're vastly overestimating them.
But your true colors shine through near the end. You criticize people for choosing vampires for their benefits, the passives. They CHOSE vampires for their unique traits.
Yet, you go ahead and claim they NOW had to choose. No. No, they already did.
It's your remark about the new active abilities that reveals it. You explicitly said vampires SHOULD be defined by active abilities. No. Not in this franchise, buddy. Vampires have always been about the passives. If you like the upcoming changes, that is YOUR opinion. And you are as subjective on the matter as you accuse the current vamp players to be.
But our subjectivity is objectively right. Because this is how vamps have always worked. ZOS are changing the rules and changing what vampires are. That is NOT "how it should be". As I compared to Mehrunes Dagon - ZOS cannot just go ahead and replace Altmer magicka racials with weapon/stamina ones and change them from the best spellcasters to the best warriors because they feel this to be "how it should be". There are rules to make a created world believable and work. Every good writer knows that. So no, ZOS shouldn't tamper with this and this is not "how it should be".
So there aren't a substantial number of vampires because of their traits, passive regen, etc, but they chose them for traits? Here's a subtle hint, this is directly contradictory, and it also contradicts everything I'm seeing complained about in all of these threads. The common theme is "I got it for the passives, because the actives were crap, and now I'm going to have to play as an actual vampire, or have my costs increased". So what people really did was take vamp to be the best (insert class that doesn't require vampire to play here) they could be? Something doesn't add up there, and I suspect that that's what ZoS is thinking too, maybe?1