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Solving Queue Related problems with new weapons
Amunari
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I was putting some thought into the serious issue we are having with people queuing as heal or tank to do the role of damage. My initial thought was to create hybrid roles but i was worried that this may be against the design philosophy of the game and then i got to realizing that its really in harmony with it in many ways (since it really advocates for "do what you want" sort of (loose) class design).
So first before i suggest the two new weapons (or potentially more) i have to say a few things need to be changed (as the new weapons do not invalidate the current ones).
Restoration heals will now apply 10% base max health bonus's to healing, which will lost for 8 seconds across its current spells with heal over times, and the heal over time effects of restoration have been removed. Further, morphs which currently yield heal over time effects will now be converted to applying more +max health modifiers.
Ice staff will no longer taunt its target, and its heavy attack will now apply a 5% of hp absorb effect to the mage, which will stack up to 3 times and will last 30 seconds. Additionally destruction based spells that are ice in nature will now apply stronger slow effects. This change was to bring about the new "earth staff" which will be much better suited for tanking due to its mechanics.
Lute
This is a new ranged weapon, similar to a bow shooting a ranged physical attack, but also doing a secondary action. this new weapon will come with its own tree.
Light: deals damage and heals for 15% of the damage
Heavy: heals near by allies for 30% of the damage
Spell One will damage the target , plus a direct heal to up to 3 other allies
Spell Two will damage the target, and a all (crit, phy, mag) resistance buff for 8 seconds to 3 allies
m1: increases the duration to 15 seconds
m2: increases the value of resist significantly
Spell Three will heal, and apply a movement speed buff (30% base) to 3 allies
m1: adds another ally and increases the radius by 10 yards (to 30yards)
m2: increases speed to 50%
Spell Four will apply Damage, and a critical strike buff to 3 allies
m1: adds + 15% damage to allies
m2: increases damage
Spell 5 will apply damage and stun the target, and regenerate 10% more resource for all allies for 4 seconds
m1: increases regen to 15%
m2: increases stun and damage
ultimate: players magical song enchanting nearby targets (in 20 yards, around caster) putting them in a stunned for 3 seconds, and dealing 7000 damage.
m1: increases stun duration to 5 seconds, but reduces its damage significantly
m2: instead of damaging near by enemies it heals near by allies for the value
Earth Staff
a new staff weapon with earth (rock) like animations (yellow, brown) which is designed purely for tanking purposes (unlike how frost is now to do both damage and tank).
Light: taunts the target for 5 seconds, and deals damage
Heavy: taunts all targets near that target for 12 seconds
Earth staff will use destruction staff tree's, but its skills will be dedicated to providing resistance to allies standing in them, and applying absorbs to both the caster, and allies in those effects while damaging enemies.
So first before i suggest the two new weapons (or potentially more) i have to say a few things need to be changed (as the new weapons do not invalidate the current ones).
Restoration heals will now apply 10% base max health bonus's to healing, which will lost for 8 seconds across its current spells with heal over times, and the heal over time effects of restoration have been removed. Further, morphs which currently yield heal over time effects will now be converted to applying more +max health modifiers.
Ice staff will no longer taunt its target, and its heavy attack will now apply a 5% of hp absorb effect to the mage, which will stack up to 3 times and will last 30 seconds. Additionally destruction based spells that are ice in nature will now apply stronger slow effects. This change was to bring about the new "earth staff" which will be much better suited for tanking due to its mechanics.
Lute
This is a new ranged weapon, similar to a bow shooting a ranged physical attack, but also doing a secondary action. this new weapon will come with its own tree.
Light: deals damage and heals for 15% of the damage
Heavy: heals near by allies for 30% of the damage
Spell One will damage the target , plus a direct heal to up to 3 other allies
Spell Two will damage the target, and a all (crit, phy, mag) resistance buff for 8 seconds to 3 allies
m1: increases the duration to 15 seconds
m2: increases the value of resist significantly
Spell Three will heal, and apply a movement speed buff (30% base) to 3 allies
m1: adds another ally and increases the radius by 10 yards (to 30yards)
m2: increases speed to 50%
Spell Four will apply Damage, and a critical strike buff to 3 allies
m1: adds + 15% damage to allies
m2: increases damage
Spell 5 will apply damage and stun the target, and regenerate 10% more resource for all allies for 4 seconds
m1: increases regen to 15%
m2: increases stun and damage
ultimate: players magical song enchanting nearby targets (in 20 yards, around caster) putting them in a stunned for 3 seconds, and dealing 7000 damage.
m1: increases stun duration to 5 seconds, but reduces its damage significantly
m2: instead of damaging near by enemies it heals near by allies for the value
Earth Staff
a new staff weapon with earth (rock) like animations (yellow, brown) which is designed purely for tanking purposes (unlike how frost is now to do both damage and tank).
Light: taunts the target for 5 seconds, and deals damage
Heavy: taunts all targets near that target for 12 seconds
Earth staff will use destruction staff tree's, but its skills will be dedicated to providing resistance to allies standing in them, and applying absorbs to both the caster, and allies in those effects while damaging enemies.
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Amunari✭✭✭We really should have a serious conversation about moving the weapon swapping itself as a mechanic (ie removing it) its really not that good. a second action bar may be a better move, or simply just expand the current one. It feels clunky to have the second bar and constantly swap back and forth, sort of like "walking up a hill" so i'll term is "walking up the hill mechanic".1
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robertthebard✭✭✭✭✭We really should have a serious conversation about moving the weapon swapping itself as a mechanic (ie removing it) its really not that good. a second action bar may be a better move, or simply just expand the current one. It feels clunky to have the second bar and constantly swap back and forth, sort of like "walking up a hill" so i'll term is "walking up the hill mechanic".
Oddly, I play a lot of MMOs where one can weapon swap, SP games as well. Why? Because sometimes your heavily ranged toon may need to go melee, or vice versa. GW 2 has some exceptions to this, Engineers/Elementalists can't swap in combat, for example, but by and large, weapon swapping is a thing for a reason, and it's not primarily, or only, because of how weapon skill lines work here. It's a factor, but it's not the only factor.0 -
Major_Lag✭✭✭✭✭
✭No amount of nerfing/buffing, or introducing new weapons, will ever fix the problem of fake tanks and fake healers. This is an issue rooted very deeply, but elsewhere.
Ultimately, this happens because there is an excessively long queue for DDs - because there's a shortage of tanks... because group finder DDs are quite awful on average, and the majority of good tanks don't want to waste their time with bad DDs.
Someone who's set out to "game the system" right from the start (queueing for a role they have 0 intention of fulfilling) won't be discouraged by the availability of fancy new dedicated tank/healer weapons, because they never intended to do any of that stuff in the first place.
Also, having an easily accessible AoE taunt would run contrary to the overall design intention behind ESO's group content, which has been designed with single-target taunts in mind right from the beginning.4 -
Amunari✭✭✭robertthebard wrote: »We really should have a serious conversation about moving the weapon swapping itself as a mechanic (ie removing it) its really not that good. a second action bar may be a better move, or simply just expand the current one. It feels clunky to have the second bar and constantly swap back and forth, sort of like "walking up a hill" so i'll term is "walking up the hill mechanic".
Oddly, I play a lot of MMOs where one can weapon swap, SP games as well. Why? Because sometimes your heavily ranged toon may need to go melee, or vice versa. GW 2 has some exceptions to this, Engineers/Elementalists can't swap in combat, for example, but by and large, weapon swapping is a thing for a reason, and it's not primarily, or only, because of how weapon skill lines work here. It's a factor, but it's not the only factor.
I'd like to know which other mmos have this mechanic, with the exception of GW2 (thats the only major mmo i know that has this mechanic), btw, that does not make it a good mechanic.0 -
Amunari✭✭✭Another major argument for removing the swap mechanic is that it enables people largely to change roles of game play. Forcing people to one weapon, would enable the ability to require roles to "have weapons of specific types" equipped to be a "role".
As long as that swap mechanic works, you can just que with a resto staff on, and swap to your dps weapon. we learn from this how abusive the system is and this is not including the constant waiting global to use abilities.Edited by Amunari on April 25, 2020 3:53PM0 -
Major_Lag✭✭✭✭✭
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Congratulations, your proposal would destroy PvP for many of the magicka classes, since classes without strong magicka selfheals rely on a resto staff backbar in PvP (or a SnB backbar for classes with strong class heals).Another major argument for removing the swap mechanic is that it enables people largely to change roles of game play. Forcing people to one weapon, would enable the ability to require roles to "have weapons of specific types" equipped to be a "role".
As long as that swap mechanic works, you can just que with a resto staff on, and swap to your dps weapon. we learn from this how abusive the system is and this is not including the constant waiting global to use abilities.
You would also screw over healers in PvE and PvP alike, who usually use a destro staff on one bar and a resto staff on the other. Same with PvE tanks, who normally use both SnB and a destro staff.5 -
Amunari✭✭✭
Congratulations, your proposal would destroy PvP for many of the magicka classes, since classes without strong magicka selfheals rely on a resto staff backbar in PvP (or a SnB backbar for classes with strong class heals).Another major argument for removing the swap mechanic is that it enables people largely to change roles of game play. Forcing people to one weapon, would enable the ability to require roles to "have weapons of specific types" equipped to be a "role".
As long as that swap mechanic works, you can just que with a resto staff on, and swap to your dps weapon. we learn from this how abusive the system is and this is not including the constant waiting global to use abilities.
You would also screw over healers in PvE and PvP alike, who usually use a destro staff on one bar and a resto staff on the other. Same with PvE tanks, who normally use both SnB and a destro staff.
Actually that is not the case at all.
You remove the Gear Scaling from pvp, just like the CP and the problem will go out the door. Also, i find this to be an argument for removing duel weapons on the bases that it would validate full heal ques for pvp.
The fact that everything can heal just means that having things that main heal are near useless. If your class is not having enough self-imposed sustainability then the defensive to the class can be changed, but this is an easy fix if we just modify the defensive of each armor type, since at least one of them is used.
I think your argument here is more or less just that you have some broken build and dont want to adapt.Edited by Amunari on April 25, 2020 4:06PM0 -
Major_Lag✭✭✭✭✭
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It's clear you don't PvP (or PvE, for that matter) in ESO at any kind of high level, or you would not be putting forward such nonsense.
Congratulations, your proposal would destroy PvP for many of the magicka classes, since classes without strong magicka selfheals rely on a resto staff backbar in PvP (or a SnB backbar for classes with strong class heals).Another major argument for removing the swap mechanic is that it enables people largely to change roles of game play. Forcing people to one weapon, would enable the ability to require roles to "have weapons of specific types" equipped to be a "role".
As long as that swap mechanic works, you can just que with a resto staff on, and swap to your dps weapon. we learn from this how abusive the system is and this is not including the constant waiting global to use abilities.
You would also screw over healers in PvE and PvP alike, who usually use a destro staff on one bar and a resto staff on the other. Same with PvE tanks, who normally use both SnB and a destro staff.
Actually that is not the case at all.
You remove the Gear Scaling from pvp, just like the CP and the problem will go out the door. Also, i find this to be an argument for removing duel weapons on the bases that it would validate full heal ques for pvp.
The fact that everything can heal just means that having things that main heal are near useless. If your class is not having enough self-imposed sustainability then the defensive to the class can be changed, but this is an easy fix if we just modify the defensive of each armor type, since at least one of them is used.
I think your argument here is more or less just that you have some broken build and dont want to adapt.
It's not a matter of "having a broken build", because that's the basic design of magicka DPS solo/smallscale builds for PvP: destro/resto.
ESO was designed right from the outset with its barswap mechanic in mind, it's a bit late to be removing that in a 6 year old game.
A lot of the game's content (PvE and PvP) relies on having access to different types of weapons on either bar.
If you dislike the barswap mechanic, then maybe ESO isn't the game for you.5 -
Amunari✭✭✭Wait, your argument is that my argument is invalid because i do, or do not do a form of content? [snip] I have multi-rank 1 experience in multiple mmo's, for multiple expansions, I just started eso two weeks ago. This has nothing to do with "me", and has everything to do with abusive mechanics in the game (like queuing as heals to dps runs). It's bad design.
Lets fast forward toIt's not a matter of "having a broken build", because that's the basic design of magicka DPS solo/smallscale builds for PvP: destro/resto.
So what. Change it to being more about self-defensive. Its not rocket science. The solution to this is far more balanced (in terms of role distribution) game play, which massively improves the pve dugeon/raid and pvp experience. Another strong argument that supports that is because of predictability of comps (Tank, Heal, Two damage vs the current Tank, 3 Damage) You can more easily balance content and tune it to skill (by having more accurate number distribution).
if you are to slow to understand it ill make it easier for youMagicka DPS does not need resto staff to have sustainability, it has plenty of class related sustain. Example Warden has heals, Sorc has shields. Etc.ESO was designed right from the outset with its barswap mechanic in mind, it's a bit late to be removing that in a 6 year old game.
This "its been around for a while, it cant change:" argument demonstrates out right ignorance of design. WE REVAMP SYSTEMS ALL OF THE TIME TO IMPROVE THEM. ALL OF THE TIME.
this argument is put into the dust on that bases alone.A lot of the game's content (PvE and PvP) relies on having access to different types of weapons on either bar.
Broken record. No it does not. You do not need two weapons. You can have 8 buttons (or what ever the equiv is with two) and your two ultimate on one bar. It will be perfectly fine, actually it will enhance the concept of builds for specific activities. To many classes have access to healing. as this point you might as well remove tank and heal and just stick everything into Two categories Just like guild wars 2 does (Damage, Hybrid).
While we are on this point by the way it never worked out for them. The damage just ended up being half the tank, and half the damage, or half the damage and half the heals. Ultimately it did absolutely nothing to change the fact that the game still have the "holy trinity".
[edited for baiting]Edited by ZOS_Lunar on April 25, 2020 5:29PM0 -
Major_Lag✭✭✭✭✭
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If you don't participate in a form of content, you have no business - and no right - asking for nerfs/buffs/changes to that content.Wait, your argument is that my argument is invalid because i do, or do not do a form of content?
Quit trying to mess with things you clearly don't understand, and trying to change them without first understanding why they are the way they are, and without understanding any of the implications of your suggested "changes".
ZOS tried that recently with the LA/HA changes on PTS (which were FAR less impactful than the nonsense you are proposing), and just look how well that went over with the playerbase.ESO was designed right from the outset with its barswap mechanic in mind, it's a bit late to be removing that in a 6 year old game.
This "its been around for a while, it cant change:" argument demonstrates out right ignorance of design. WE REVAMP SYSTEMS ALL OF THE TIME TO IMPROVE THEM. ALL OF THE TIME.
this argument is put into the dust on that bases alone.
Even ZOS is not so dumb as to completely gut their game by deleting one of its core mechanics it was built on as part of its very foundation.
Also, who are "we"? You are not part of the ZOS dev team.
Lol, you clearly don't understand how ESO PvP works.It's not a matter of "having a broken build", because that's the basic design of magicka DPS solo/smallscale builds for PvP: destro/resto.
So what. Change it to being more about self-defensive. Its not rocket science. The solution to this is far more balanced (in terms of role distribution) game play, which massively improves the pve dugeon/raid and pvp experience. Another strong argument that supports that is because of predictability of comps (Tank, Heal, Two damage vs the current Tank, 3 Damage) You can more easily balance content and tune it to skill (by having more accurate number distribution).
if you are to slow to understand it ill make it easier for youMagicka DPS does not need resto staff to have sustainability, it has plenty of class related sustain. Example Warden has heals, Sorc has shields. Etc.
Try that on, say, a Nightblade - who has one of the worst class heals in the game, and magNB is totally non-viable without a resto backbar.
OTOH, classes such as Templar or Warden can easily dispense with a resto backbar in PvP, since they have excellent class heals.
Sorc shields are a special case, it's not a heal and it is not meant to be used in the same way as burst heals are normally used.
One word: Consoles.
No, you can't have 10+2 abilities on 1 bar, and it will not be fine - because controllers are a thing, and you can't fit that kind of control scheme on a controller.4 -
Amunari✭✭✭ZOS tried that recently with the LA/HA changes on PTS (which were FAR less impactful than the nonsense you are proposing), and just look how well that went over with the playerbase.
The purposed changes are bad, because the charge mechanic itself is bad. It stops casting of other spells or forces weave play and out side of that there is really not an intellectual choice about how to apply heavies.
Iv heard arguments about this from streamers, and their point is that "zos is doing this to make it easier for new player but its just worst on them".
Imo, it would be far better to convert some weapons to always having heavy, and some light and giving them individual benefits (like faster attack for light, ie more generation / larger burst and burst resource gen for heavy) Or creating some sort of "power up" bar that after you do so many lights you can push a button to go "berseker mode" doing so many heavy attacks at extremely high damage (think of it like light weapon builds "charge" and then you push X key to make your weapon an ult). then apply a drain effect while its active.
This would feel far better, and make the choice of when to pop that special weapon-ult and if to weave it or not.Even ZOS is not so dumb as to completely gut their game by deleting one of its core mechanics it was built on as part of its very foundation.
Do you have some magical power that the rest of us dont have knowing for sure that this change would be bad?Also, who are "we"? You are not part of the ZOS dev team.
No, I am not part of ZoS. We here is us "game developers" (in the general sense).Try that on, say, a Nightblade - who has one of the worst class heals in the game, and magNB is totally non-viable without a resto backbar.
Nightblade already has heals and it still dies in pvp, so your argument is already void but even if we go s astrep further i already covered the stupidity of "no because a class needs heals to live". No they dont, they need defensive or some advantage to offset the loss of the heals.
Nightblade getting better protection vs dots will validate it better, it does not need heals to validate it. changing one of its passives to heal for damage it deals, would help it. There are many possibilities to fix it, and none of them involve the requirement to have a second weapon.One word: Consoles.
No, you can't have 10+2 abilities on 1 bar, and it will not be fine - because controllers are a thing, and you can't fit that kind of control scheme on a controller.
this one word demonstrated the fact that you dont know that the controllers on ps4 have up to 21 binds. (9 face buttons, plus 8 directional on the two controller sticks, 4 triggers)
So yes, the game can definitely support it on council this way.
So obviously mr one word, you dont play on console.0 -
Major_Lag✭✭✭✭✭
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It really shows your extremely limited understanding of the game, if you even need to pose such a question to begin with.
If you want ESO to be more like WoW/GW2/(insert another MMO here)... then you should just go and play that MMO, instead of trying to overhaul ESO to be identical to another game and losing its unique identity.
Or if you feel like there's no MMO on the market that's suitable for you... start up your own, then?
Right, because NB heals are trash compared to other classes', and NB class in general has been repeatedly nerfed into Oblivion far too many times to count.Nightblade already has heals and it still dies in pvp
That's not how ESO PvP works, heals are an absolute requirement unless you are bombing or ganking.but even if we go s astrep further i already covered the stupidity of "no because a class needs heals to live". No they dont, they need defensive or some advantage to offset the loss of the heals.
Making everyone much more tanky and strongly reducing heals would just turn PvP into a pillow fight fest, where everyone would waste a lot of time trying to whittle down the huge effective health pools - while at the same time making outnumbered fights more or less impossible.
No, I don't play on console, although I sometimes use a controller on the PC.this one word demonstrated the fact that you dont know that the controllers on ps4 have up to 21 binds. (9 face buttons, plus 8 directional on the two controller sticks, 4 triggers)
So yes, the game can definitely support it on council this way.
So obviously mr one word, you dont play on console.
But LOL, good luck trying to weave abilities while having to press multiple buttons for a keybind
And since you are an obviously hopeless case, I'll just leave you with this:G. K. Chesterton wrote:In the matter of reforming things, as distinct from deforming them, there is one plain and simple principle; a principle which will probably be called a paradox.
There exists in such a case a certain institution or law; let us say, for the sake of simplicity, a fence or gate erected across a road.
The more modern type of reformer goes gaily up to it and says, "I don't see the use of this; let us clear it away."
To which the more intelligent type of reformer will do well to answer: "If you don't see the use of it, I certainly won't let you clear it away. Go away and think. Then, when you can come back and tell me that you do see the use of it, I may allow you to destroy it."3 -
Amunari✭✭✭No amount of nerfing/buffing, or introducing new weapons, will ever fix the problem of fake tanks and fake healers. This is an issue rooted very deeply, but elsewhere.
Ultimately, this happens because there is an excessively long queue for DDs - because there's a shortage of tanks... because group finder DDs are quite awful on average, and the majority of good tanks don't want to waste their time with bad DDs.
Someone who's set out to "game the system" right from the start (queueing for a role they have 0 intention of fulfilling) won't be discouraged by the availability of fancy new dedicated tank/healer weapons, because they never intended to do any of that stuff in the first place.
Also, having an easily accessible AoE taunt would run contrary to the overall design intention behind ESO's group content, which has been designed with single-target taunts in mind right from the beginning.
Some times you have to force players to play a specific way. You can keep their loyalty to that way with rewards and benefits (not including the faster ques).
in essence your saying we should leave the system like it is because you dont want to make some minor adjustment to classes, instead you want everything to lean on one crutch, and the truth is that classes will always be half-good or bad because of that very crutch you advocate to lean on. the classes will be unique until they are given the ability to stand alone and do that. this is not against the concept of loose (build your own) class design, its just saying that the native class abilities (like warden having heals) should be strong enough to counter the fact that they dont have a healing specific skill line.
in other words, Nightblade should not be forced to carry a resto staff to be competitive.
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robertthebard✭✭✭✭✭robertthebard wrote: »We really should have a serious conversation about moving the weapon swapping itself as a mechanic (ie removing it) its really not that good. a second action bar may be a better move, or simply just expand the current one. It feels clunky to have the second bar and constantly swap back and forth, sort of like "walking up a hill" so i'll term is "walking up the hill mechanic".
Oddly, I play a lot of MMOs where one can weapon swap, SP games as well. Why? Because sometimes your heavily ranged toon may need to go melee, or vice versa. GW 2 has some exceptions to this, Engineers/Elementalists can't swap in combat, for example, but by and large, weapon swapping is a thing for a reason, and it's not primarily, or only, because of how weapon skill lines work here. It's a factor, but it's not the only factor.
I'd like to know which other mmos have this mechanic, with the exception of GW2 (thats the only major mmo i know that has this mechanic), btw, that does not make it a good mechanic.
I can line a 12 space bar with nothing but weapons to swap to in DDO, right off the top of my head. More, if they're not sets of weapons, like dual weapons or S&B. I'm sorry that you're confused about why some styles may want different weapons for different situations, but this isn't a poor design choice. Giving players options is never not a good thing.1 -
Amunari✭✭✭robertthebard wrote: »robertthebard wrote: »We really should have a serious conversation about moving the weapon swapping itself as a mechanic (ie removing it) its really not that good. a second action bar may be a better move, or simply just expand the current one. It feels clunky to have the second bar and constantly swap back and forth, sort of like "walking up a hill" so i'll term is "walking up the hill mechanic".
Oddly, I play a lot of MMOs where one can weapon swap, SP games as well. Why? Because sometimes your heavily ranged toon may need to go melee, or vice versa. GW 2 has some exceptions to this, Engineers/Elementalists can't swap in combat, for example, but by and large, weapon swapping is a thing for a reason, and it's not primarily, or only, because of how weapon skill lines work here. It's a factor, but it's not the only factor.
I'd like to know which other mmos have this mechanic, with the exception of GW2 (thats the only major mmo i know that has this mechanic), btw, that does not make it a good mechanic.
I can line a 12 space bar with nothing but weapons to swap to in DDO, right off the top of my head. More, if they're not sets of weapons, like dual weapons or S&B. I'm sorry that you're confused about why some styles may want different weapons for different situations, but this isn't a poor design choice. Giving players options is never not a good thing.
This is not about options, and Yes, There is situations where giving people options is NOT a good thing.
There is a reason why the majority of senior studios do not use loose class design, it is in fact because that concept "giving players options" is never a good idea when it comes to class design, but these are things for us designers to decide and really come down to if we want to trade balance for that expressive content (ie ability to flex on builds).
This is not the issue however, the problem is not that the game has loose class design, the problem is that like multiguild systems weapon swapping has never really done anything significantly impactful to a game that could not be done without it.
the very concept of forcing people to have weapons to be viable with a class itself is restricting personal build. Any build should be competitive, no matter what is on their weapon slots, and that is simply not the case in many cases, especially for nightblade.0 -
SickleCider✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭We really should have a serious conversation about moving the weapon swapping itself as a mechanic (ie removing it) its really not that good. a second action bar may be a better move, or simply just expand the current one. It feels clunky to have the second bar and constantly swap back and forth, sort of like "walking up a hill" so i'll term is "walking up the hill mechanic".
This would not work for consoles. A big benefit of the current design is that it accommodates controllers.✨🐦✨ Blackfeather Court Commission ✨🐦✨2 -
robertthebard✭✭✭✭✭robertthebard wrote: »robertthebard wrote: »We really should have a serious conversation about moving the weapon swapping itself as a mechanic (ie removing it) its really not that good. a second action bar may be a better move, or simply just expand the current one. It feels clunky to have the second bar and constantly swap back and forth, sort of like "walking up a hill" so i'll term is "walking up the hill mechanic".
Oddly, I play a lot of MMOs where one can weapon swap, SP games as well. Why? Because sometimes your heavily ranged toon may need to go melee, or vice versa. GW 2 has some exceptions to this, Engineers/Elementalists can't swap in combat, for example, but by and large, weapon swapping is a thing for a reason, and it's not primarily, or only, because of how weapon skill lines work here. It's a factor, but it's not the only factor.
I'd like to know which other mmos have this mechanic, with the exception of GW2 (thats the only major mmo i know that has this mechanic), btw, that does not make it a good mechanic.
I can line a 12 space bar with nothing but weapons to swap to in DDO, right off the top of my head. More, if they're not sets of weapons, like dual weapons or S&B. I'm sorry that you're confused about why some styles may want different weapons for different situations, but this isn't a poor design choice. Giving players options is never not a good thing.
This is not about options, and Yes, There is situations where giving people options is NOT a good thing.
There is a reason why the majority of senior studios do not use loose class design, it is in fact because that concept "giving players options" is never a good idea when it comes to class design, but these are things for us designers to decide and really come down to if we want to trade balance for that expressive content (ie ability to flex on builds).
This is not the issue however, the problem is not that the game has loose class design, the problem is that like multiguild systems weapon swapping has never really done anything significantly impactful to a game that could not be done without it.
the very concept of forcing people to have weapons to be viable with a class itself is restricting personal build. Any build should be competitive, no matter what is on their weapon slots, and that is simply not the case in many cases, especially for nightblade.
Nope. I can swap between melee and ranged, and have an impact, even on a NB. Of course, I didn't go to the FotM school of character building, and therefore I'm not limited by what someone else found that works, and I've never had anyone complain about my DPS, or my play in general. It's even funnier when one considers the build guides floating around the internet for NBs in particular that have 3 completely different setups based on Mag/Stam/Bow. Just looking at the distinctions indicates that the weapons are, in fact, having an impact, and the assorted skills associated with said weapons will also have an impact. The bow skill line is different from both the melee and magicka based skill lines, even though the base class features remain the same. Even in the class skills there's a point where you can keep it running Mag or swap it to Stam, depending on how you want to play, which can include weapon choices for front and back bars. Seems pretty impactful to me.1 -
Amunari✭✭✭Those are class related issues, not weapon swapping related issues. Archery could of been one of the nb skill lines.0
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robertthebard✭✭✭✭✭Those are class related issues, not weapon swapping related issues. Archery could of been one of the nb skill lines.
Instead, it's available to anyone that wants to build into it, and they can do so w/out having to split their builds overmuch. Seems like it adds more than it takes away from where I'm sitting.3 -
TheShadowScout✭✭✭✭✭
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...which is an issue those suggestions won't fix. Since at its core, its an issue with peoples honesty, and dishonesty to gain an advantage...I was putting some thought into the serious issue we are having with people queuing as heal or tank to do the role of damage...
A better way would be to just dish out the rewards to people according to fulfilling their choosen role.
Like... queue as "tank", and get no rewards or expees for doing the damage, only for taking and blocking it. Go there as "healer" and get nothing for the damage you do, only for the heals you spew. And only if you properly queue as DPS, then you get the rewards for doing the damage.
And in the end... if you go as "fake" you get nothing from it even if your team carries you through it somehow. Even the daily could have a addendum of "must do minimum damage/tanking/healing to clear quest".
Not that new weapons would be a bad thing!
But I would say that, would I not, considering I posted earth staves as option for warding staves in:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/371862/additional-weapon-skill-ideas-mk-ii/p1
...and a bardic skill line complete with "lute" (and other musical instruments) weapon options in:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/387560/additional-guild-ideas-mk-ii
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Amunari✭✭✭Your approach is to discourage people from doing said action (ie queuing for roles they are not actively doing). This is a bad approach because it leaves room for people to find ways around the fix, which means the fix is in itself a waste of development resources (in short the dev teams time and effort).
By only being able to queue(as tank or heals) with one specific weapon (and potentially set amount of skills from that weapon), you force a specific role to be played in its intended manner.
Definitely the addition of other weapons that have damage-Heal, or Damage-buff effects would be a benefit to the game to a degree, however this also comes at the cost of blurring the lines of class design further invalidating what it means to be one specific class or another. For example warden is a damage-heal based class, as its skill likes naturally give them that direction, where sorcerer does not have a healing-related skill line (not as directly as warden anyways). Think about the impact that such weapons would have on them. The class itself would become "less valid" as a healer/hybrid role.
When it comes to fixing this problem it will definitely take a "forced" role, not an optional one. Forcing specific armor types on players for specific roles really go's against eso's loose class design and the concept of being able to que as a dps with plate. This means that you would further encourage the role if the player was in a situation where they que damage as tank (maybe its their tanking day off). also, this implies they do need gear, which is not always the case in vet runs. I have seen 1400 cp players in vets, so i am assuming they probably have the gear they need from higher levels of content.0 -
Amunari✭✭✭I had an interesting idea reflecting on this conversation this morning, and i think i have come up with an interesting solution that may be eso specific.
what if we make all the drops happen at the end of an instance, and require a set amount of healing, or damage taken (for tank, heal roles) to obtain any loot, experience, etc? We could set a tier system so that if you heal a low amount you get something marginal, as as you do more, you get more. this would ensure that people would heal when queuing heals, and would not out right require a rework of the combat system.
Additionally, i do not see significant ways to abuse this if it is set to role-specific game play.
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robertthebard✭✭✭✭✭You cannot fix player behavior. I have played games with clearly defined classes with clearly defined roles, and I don't mind them overmuch. However, that has to be a design goal from the start. I have played games that lack this trinity, or lack a clearly defined hierarchy for who does what role, and they are fun as well. The problem with your solution is that we have no clearly defined roles assigned to a specific class. One can build a tank/healer/dps with any of the classes in game, with the right investments in the right gear and skills, including weapon skills. Despite what you claim, this is not a bad thing.
This isn't a trinity based MMO, and it adds to it's uniqueness. In a market flooded with games, for better or worse, being unique can help a game stand out amongst it's peers, which will draw at least a niche following for the game. In that, you will always have players that want it to be more like (insert other MMO here). The 2nd closed beta forum for Aion was full of "If you don't make it more like WoW, it's going to fail" posts. Then it's "It's just another WoW clone". If a game can grab onto something unique, it needs to hold on to that, because ultimately, that's what defines the game in the eyes of the loyal players, defined here as players that like what the game has presented as it's "identity" and want that to remain.
Nothing in any of your suggestions will work in a game that doesn't have clearly defined roles, and since the lack of these clearly defined roles is part of this game's identity, it's not something you change because "well, this player hit the queue as a tank, and sucked at it". A player that wants to tank can absolutely have a weapon swap to do more dps. If they're out in the open world questing, they may even want to have it, I know my DK has a two hander back bar to go with her S&B front bar, just so I can kill stuff a bit faster when I have to.1 -
Amunari✭✭✭You cannot fix player behavior.
Yes, Yes you absolutely can.
In the case of dungeons and dps queuing as heals to dps the problem is "dps queuing for the wrong role, and as a result group going a run with out heals".
If players queue as heals to dps, you can fix that by forcing them to heal. That is easily done in a mechanical way. Either they will q ue as heals and heal, or start queuing as dps. Problem is solve and now only people qued as healer will heal.
Its not rocket science here i do not understand why you make such a stupid statement. You can definitely solve these problems, its just you the player probably do it and dont want to be forced to heal, in which case i advocate for a faster change to stop this abuse.
This isn't a trinity based MMO, and it adds to it's uniqueness
You do realize that the queue system has literally 3 roles on top, right?
Heal, Tank, Damage. How do you make such a clearly wrong statement?
In a market flooded with games, for better or worse, being unique can help a game stand out among it's peers
no such thing as being unique in any mmo. Literally everyone has builds that are copied by the masses. It is literally impossible for you to be unique in a game of millions of players with only hundreds of skills. IMPOSSIBLE.
Nothing in any of your suggestions will work in a game that doesn't have clearly defined roles, and since the lack of these clearly defined roles is part of this game's identity, it's not something you change because "well, this player hit the queue as a tank, and sucked at it".
The problem is i am clearly advocating that weapons are sorted into groups that have clearly defined roles, so this entire argument go's out the door. I am literally saying that weapons should fall into three categories, Tank, Damage, Heals. and each should be paired with the role in group queue.
its not hard to get.0 -
robertthebard✭✭✭✭✭You cannot fix player behavior.
Yes, Yes you absolutely can.
In the case of dungeons and dps queuing as heals to dps the problem is "dps queuing for the wrong role, and as a result group going a run with out heals".
If players queue as heals to dps, you can fix that by forcing them to heal. That is easily done in a mechanical way. Either they will q ue as heals and heal, or start queuing as dps. Problem is solve and now only people qued as healer will heal.
Its not rocket science here i do not understand why you make such a stupid statement. You can definitely solve these problems, its just you the player probably do it and dont want to be forced to heal, in which case i advocate for a faster change to stop this abuse.
This isn't a trinity based MMO, and it adds to it's uniqueness
You do realize that the queue system has literally 3 roles on top, right?
Heal, Tank, Damage. How do you make such a clearly wrong statement?
In a market flooded with games, for better or worse, being unique can help a game stand out among it's peers
no such thing as being unique in any mmo. Literally everyone has builds that are copied by the masses. It is literally impossible for you to be unique in a game of millions of players with only hundreds of skills. IMPOSSIBLE.
Nothing in any of your suggestions will work in a game that doesn't have clearly defined roles, and since the lack of these clearly defined roles is part of this game's identity, it's not something you change because "well, this player hit the queue as a tank, and sucked at it".
The problem is i am clearly advocating that weapons are sorted into groups that have clearly defined roles, so this entire argument go's out the door. I am literally saying that weapons should fall into three categories, Tank, Damage, Heals. and each should be paired with the role in group queue.
its not hard to get.
Nobody playing ESO is looking for a clearly defined trinity. If you believe that they are, you need to read the vampire threads for an example of how wrong you are about that. Maybe nobody is too broad, because it's obvious that you're trying to change the game to something it's not, and maybe you have a couple of friends that are reinforcing this ideology?4 -
TheShadowScout✭✭✭✭✭
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Just like form follows function, player behavoir is influenced by the options and limitations the game gives them. Change the limitations and you can affect player behavoir... though of course there will always be those who try to "dirty trick" themselves an advantage, and you need to be very careful to make up limitations and settings that make their efforts ineffective, or they WILL behave that way.robertthebard wrote: »You cannot fix player behavior.
Also won't force "tanks" to actually slot a taunt skill on their S&B, or "healers" to use their resto staff for more then heavy attack to recover MP for their DPS spells or... or... or...The problem is i am clearly advocating that weapons are sorted into groups that have clearly defined roles, so this entire argument go's out the door. I am literally saying that weapons should fall into three categories, Tank, Damage, Heals. and each should be paired with the role in group queue.
Like I said, its not a good idea to tie the "role" to weapons, not when in ESO people can pick their active skills as they like.
Like I also said, better to consider tying the -rewards- to actions taken for that role.
Then people trying to skip ahead in the queuse as "fake" tanke/healer will not gain anything from it if they don't actually tank or heal for the group, not even if their party somehow squeezes through the dungeon... I am guessing it would not take them long to adjust their behavoir... 1 -
bmnoble✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Don't really like any of the idea's in the OP.
As for getting rid of bar swap, that will end up making the problem your trying to fix worse not better.
Your claiming it will force people into their chosen role of healer tank etc.. That is all well and good you can run those roles purely as support "provided the DPS do their job" in most PUG groups I have tanked, I quickly discovered playing purely a tank becomes a test of patience due to how little damage they actually manage or how poorly they survive not all the time but enough to cause players to change their set ups because of it being so frequent.
And often getting either a fake healer who is just another DPS does not help since they don't fill the role of helping the DPS survive or when the tank gets in trouble.
Those kind of encounters resulted in me changing the way I tank, rather than running two bars with Sword and Shield now I will run either a Resto or Destruction staff on the back bar.
If the group gets a fake healer I set up a healing back bar and heal and tank most dungeons while providing resources when I can to the group.
If we get a real healer and its an easier dungeon I will run a fire staff on the back bar and lay down a lot of ground based attacks and damage over times, in between refreshing taunt.
If its a dungeon with a lot of strong ads in addition to the boss (usually DLC dungeons) I run a frost staff on the back bar to help with block sustain by switching from one bar to the the other while using similar skills to what I run on the fire staff as well when I can.
Not to mention the number of people that back bar an arena weapon.
At absolute most I would like more slots for skills on each bar other than that leave bar swap alone.
If they try to force people to stick with one bar, they may as well get rid of the group finder because every tank and healer will be looking for their groups in guild or zone chat rather then playing roulette with the group finder, with bar swap you can make up for a groups weakness to a certain extent, take that away and groups will disband a lot more often.0 -
zvavi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭What if the dungeon doesn't require dedicated healer? I run off heals and give resources to my dds on my tanks. In dungeons it works great (when dungeons actually work).
I mean, I get that you had an idea but as many said, 1. it is a problem for console and those who use controllers. No matter how much you ignore it, saying controllers have enough buttons, is silly. I already know someone that used controller for pc, but didn't bind block button. Yep. She didn't do it because she didn't find a button that is comfortable to do it. Also don't forget all the non combat buttons etc etc. I mean, maybe for you it won't be a problem getting all the skills on one controller, but that's one hell of a headache for a lot of other people.
2. Your idea requires redesign of the whole game (like a lot of your ideas...), which is as wasteful of resources as it gets. I mean, in 90% of the pve content you don't need a dedicated healer. And without changing the whole game dedicated healers will literally have almost the same value if they stand afk in the beginning of the dungeon (lol).
3. You mentioned it is easy to force players complete their roles. I agree. But even much simpler and better ideas than yours (tanks get 50% dmg done debuff healers get 33% debuff) can be debatable.
Now imagine this. There are 10 players willing to tank. 15 willing to heal. And 75 willing to deal damage. Making sure that those that willing to deal damage can't queue as tank nor heal will only hurt dd queue even farther.
It means the only way to actually fix anything is to change player mentality towards the roles. And this can only be done through the root.
Many tanks are unwilling to do dungeons because of bad dds. Or people that are ok with healing but afraid to do so because someone might die under their watch. <- to bring these guys in best option is one we already suggested, but never got an answer to it. Solo instances for dungeon certifications. Those solo instances will help higher the floor (which is in line with zos's aims) and lower a lot of toxicity from group finder (because on one hand the floor is higher, on the other hand each level content suddenly have it's own standards, which is introduced to all players and roles).Edited by zvavi on April 27, 2020 12:43AM1