Counterpoint: There are a lot of extremely potent sets in the game, that most players don't understand how to use.

Example:

SupremeRissole wrote: »

Take New Moon Acolyte, we gained one new set, and deconned Julianos and Hundings.

NMA does not replace Juli and Hundings. It's distinct, and those sets still offer better sustain. Additionally, you can stack Juli or Hundings with NMA if you're so inclined.

The community is far too happy to declare something BiS, and everything else trash.

I can think of several dozen, "irrelevant," sets that would become brokenly powerful if they were even slightly buffed.

justaquickword wrote: »

You can't blame the developers for a large percentage of the playerbase following builds like sheep.

justaquickword wrote: »

You can't blame the developers for a large percentage of the playerbase following builds like sheep.

But you can blame the players for wanting to play something outside of roleplaying and overland content realm? Or you know... be competetive? Because that's a sin I suppose by your standarts?

They seriously need to take this approach rather than killing every fun, unique, or powerful build. Their version of “balance” has often been nerfing whatever’s best at the time for years now and it’s seriously a massive killjoy. Take the asylum inferno: DK finally gets a unique build and they destroy it. Why couldn’t you just give wardens something that synergizes with ice passives? NB something to synergize with their passives? Sorc and shock? Etc. A cool interaction between class and gear/skills, and boom, they crush it for no good reason. DK hit highest on dummy, but NBs are still the dps class setting all the records.. And THEN they have the audacity to add insanely high damage stuff right after claiming they want to close the power gap. Sorry, once I got started I just couldn’t stop my thumbs lol

starkerealm wrote: »

Counterpoint: There are a lot of extremely potent sets in the game, that most players don't understand how to use.

Example:

SupremeRissole wrote: »

Take New Moon Acolyte, we gained one new set, and deconned Julianos and Hundings.

NMA does not replace Juli and Hundings. It's distinct, and those sets still offer better sustain. Additionally, you can stack Juli or Hundings with NMA if you're so inclined.

The community is far too happy to declare something BiS, and everything else trash.

I can think of several dozen, "irrelevant," sets that would become brokenly powerful if they were even slightly buffed.

"Several dozen?" I would LOVE to see that list.

You can make cheesy LA/HA builds out of the ~dozen sets that buff them plus being a DK or Overload Sorc but *opens eso-sets tab* I think that you would be very hard-pressed indeed to find worthwhile applications for many of the game's truly S-tier dumpster sets. Come to think of it, that would be a fun persistent thread for the forum if you could pull it off.

I don't dispute that the universe of "viable-ish" sets is larger than many give it credit for (mainly thanks to PvP) but at least for PvE the metric is always going to contributions to max (individual or team) DPS and for that there really is "the best" and then "the rest."

Unlike in PvP, where any set with a unique effect could be considered to be a potentially useful when viewed from some obscure angle, in PvE, sets that give you fewer overall stats or modifications are simply objectively weaker.

Take Wise Mage and Infallible Aether for example, where the one is simply a heavily nerfed version of the other despite coming from the same basic content. Why does Wise Mage even exist? It has no possible advantage over AA and it is not less difficult to obtain (strangely, it is actually harder to obtain given that Hel Ra is easier than Sanctum O). Outside of an intentional self-nerf, there is no scenario that you would ever choose Wise Mage over AA, which is textbook bad design and itemization.

You would think that given this state of affairs, that it would be more fruitful for ZOS to concern themselves first with buffing useless sets such as Wise Mage to at least have an arguable claim to being BiS... at something... but instead we get this endless parade of wild and reckless nerfs. What possible "power budget" scheme could they be using to have decided that Wise Mage and AA are of equivalent 5-piece utility (answer: there isn't one)?

I think that nearly everyone can agree with the essence of the OP's point (even if you disagree about the precise number of sets that fall into this category): that ZOS should first busy themselves with buffing into usefulness the game's many useless sets and then and only then resume the Bloodroot Forge sacrificing of sets to the cruel Reachmen nerf god.

With 6 classes and 2 sub-class playstyles in Vampire and Werewolf, now is the perfect time to visit alll sets and create more thematic to class identity and synergies. There are so many sets, and a lot of them already tied to specific class lore of bosses.

2-4 piece mix of resource, crit, pen, power
5 even more of same boring stat you get in 2-4 or maybe slight off chance of an interesting proc, but probably just a gimmick way of getting more of 2-4.

After all these years it's just incredibly stale and they have to break other sets or make new ones too strong just to make people want them.

SupremeRissole wrote: »

There are so many sets in this game and from a PvP or endgame PvE perspective, 90% of them are pretty much useless. When ZOS adds new sets, we don't get more options like you would expect, in some cases we get less.
Take for example stuhns fury.
ZOS added one set, and at a bare minimum, have removed two sets from viability, Spriggans and Spinners. Why on earth would I use those sets when I now can just craft Stuhns.
Take New Moon Acolyte, we gained one new set, and deconned Julianos and Hundings.
And while I understand they have to sell chapters and DLCs by manipulating the meta (e.g morrowind - war machine/master architect meta, summerset - rele/siroria meta, elswyer - necro, lokke/false gods meta), the whole "play how you want" lie just gets worse every year.
There will always be a meta, people don't want to gimp themseves by wearing non-optimal gear, that won't change.
But instead of nerfing the only good sets into oblivion (I agree on tank meta needing a change, I agree BS needed a nerf but not as bad as it did recieve) and then adding new OP sets for us to flock to, can you please for once buff sets we never use so that we have some sort of diversity. ZOS have proven its possible, look at the buff to elfbane combined with the vAS staff. All of a sudden we have a unique build using old gear and it's fun, well at least for one patch I guess.

I like the direction they're taking, to kill metas and make other sets more viable. Especially liked the baseline crit resistance. This game needs more build diversity, especially in PvP.

Elusiin wrote: »

SupremeRissole wrote: »

There are so many sets in this game and from a PvP or endgame PvE perspective, 90% of them are pretty much useless. When ZOS adds new sets, we don't get more options like you would expect, in some cases we get less.
Take for example stuhns fury.
ZOS added one set, and at a bare minimum, have removed two sets from viability, Spriggans and Spinners. Why on earth would I use those sets when I now can just craft Stuhns.
Take New Moon Acolyte, we gained one new set, and deconned Julianos and Hundings.
And while I understand they have to sell chapters and DLCs by manipulating the meta (e.g morrowind - war machine/master architect meta, summerset - rele/siroria meta, elswyer - necro, lokke/false gods meta), the whole "play how you want" lie just gets worse every year.
There will always be a meta, people don't want to gimp themseves by wearing non-optimal gear, that won't change.
But instead of nerfing the only good sets into oblivion (I agree on tank meta needing a change, I agree BS needed a nerf but not as bad as it did recieve) and then adding new OP sets for us to flock to, can you please for once buff sets we never use so that we have some sort of diversity. ZOS have proven its possible, look at the buff to elfbane combined with the vAS staff. All of a sudden we have a unique build using old gear and it's fun, well at least for one patch I guess.

I like the direction they're taking, to kill metas and make other sets more viable. Especially liked the baseline crit resistance. This game needs more build diversity, especially in PvP.

My point is their direction makes less sets viable. It would be nice if by adding 10 sets to the game we'd get 8 or so ADDITIONS to the small list of viable sets to use, but they are REPLACEMENTS. My first example was spriggans and spinners, why on earth would I elect to run one of those sets when I can get nearly three times the penetration, screw the proc condition it doesnt make a difference. Open up ESO-sets and go through the whole list of sets you would honestly think would work against good players. I'd say less than 20.

Buff Dro'Zakars claws again, the post PTS nerf was entierly un-needed and completely killed the set. It could have been an amazingly fun new build for the game.

I agree with the sentiment, heck id rather see old sets reworked and buffed over new sets being added a lot of the time tbh.

Jayroo wrote: »

if you buff under-performing stuff that'll make the game too easy!! /s

By most things having viable option, you give more tools to the player.

If X sets is a favored set, then you might build Y to counter all those people doing it. Especially the sheep that have to be told what to use.

If Y is super weak and can't ever really counter X, then X sits there until ZOS arbitrarily changes things. This is horrible development. There should be many good sets that change play style up, and counter other potential styles. But unfortunately the devs of this game aren't very bright when it comes to these metas, so they can't properly provide this constant shifting metas and things get locked until they break it.

I''m sure it has a lot to do with their super unimaginative way of making sets as well.

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Counterpoint: There are a lot of extremely potent sets in the game, that most players don't understand how to use.

Example:

SupremeRissole wrote: »

Take New Moon Acolyte, we gained one new set, and deconned Julianos and Hundings.

NMA does not replace Juli and Hundings. It's distinct, and those sets still offer better sustain. Additionally, you can stack Juli or Hundings with NMA if you're so inclined.

The community is far too happy to declare something BiS, and everything else trash.

I can think of several dozen, "irrelevant," sets that would become brokenly powerful if they were even slightly buffed.

"Several dozen?" I would LOVE to see that list.

Well, here's a few off the top of my head:

Rattlecage/DKS. One small change would make these immediately mandatory: Removing the Major Brutality/Sorcery buffs, and changing them to unique buffs that did the same. Hell, you could even "nerf" them down to +10% and they'd still be broken powerful. Of course, a good illustration of how much impact that would have is looking back at the now, oft-forgotten, Sunderflame and NMG. Back when they had unique debuffs, they were group auto-includes. Calling them brokenly powerful might be overstating it a little, but they were a mandatory part of any group loadout.

Of course, DKS weapons and jewels used to have a special place for vMA runs, because the major expedition bonus would, functionally, be persistent. You'd never go more than 20 seconds without getting a kill, so you had increased movement from your 5pc bonus, and depending on your class, it took Major Brutality off the list of buffs you needed to manage.

Another one that would have a similar knock-on effect if you turned the Minor buff into an unnamed one is Slimecraw. +8% damage, and you can still stack Berserk on top of that? Yes please.

Now, I am being a little cheeky with this, because there are a lot of sets that have been blown off as irrelevant over the years that were hilariously powerful in the right circumstances. Let's look at Blooddrinker for a second. If you're sitting there thinking, "what the hell is Blooddrinker?" It's +20% bleed damage. Not a major/minor buff, just extra bleed. Why was this brokenly powerful? By itself, it wasn't, but back right after Wolfhunter, you could combo it with Savage Werewolf which added a stacking bleed effect to all your light and heavy attacks. Back then, bleed bypassed resists, so you'd stick a DoT on anything that moved. Again, so what? Bleed's basically irrelevant. Except, in PvP, it would let you put a resist bypassing DoT, without a visual callout, on your bow's light attack. And those bleeds would stack up fast. Restore bleeds to bypass resists (which doesn't even change the set directly), and Savage + Blooddrinker would be back to its old roflstompping self.

There's a lot of proc sets where if you deleted the word, "direct," from the prereqs things would get out of hand fast. Of course we all remember Scathing back in the day, but that's the tip of the iceberg.

To be fair, there's a lot of sets the community straight up overlooks. Oblivion's Edge is one of the rare sets with 5 bonuses. The basic bonuses aren't bad, (Weapon Crit, Stam Recovery, Weapon Damage x2), the 5pc bonus looks kinda trash, "fill a soul gem? So what," but the self heal on kills is nice in certain situations, and it doesn't even need an empty soul gem to heal you. I wouldn't pretend that it would become overpowered through minor alterations, but it is a "trash set," that delivers pretty nicely.

There's also set combos that are just downright broken. The doom of Za'an's Elf Bane is one of these. You've got a flame effect that scales up the longer the effect lasts, you have a set that extends the duration of flame effects, put these together and enjoy tagging someone for hilarious damage. The community rallies around this as BiS, because it is downright broken, and it only takes a very minor tweak (changing Elf Bane so it doesn't interact with channeled or ongoing abilities) to nullify that interaction. I realize this is demonstrating something by showing the inverse, but here we are.

So, yeah, there are a lot. When I said, "several dozen," I was being conservative. The margin between god tier (but not actually broken) and trash is shockingly narrow most of the time.

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Take Wise Mage and Infallible Aether...

No thanks, you can decon all the Wise Mage garbage you find.

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Why does Wise Mage even exist?

Wise Mage/IA, Celerity/VO, and Immortal Warrior/Eternal Warrior all appear to be a forerunners to the imperfect/perfected system. (Note that Immortal and Eternal had their effects radically altered, so they are now unique sets, where before, Immortal was just Eternal without the Ultimate generating effect.)

If I remember correctly, Wise Mage, Celerity, and Immortal were significantly more common (or they appeared in HRC, with IA, VO, and EW showing up in AA or SO originally.)

To be clear, Wise and Celerity are bad. The only viable use for Celerity is to stack the 8% discount with VO, and even that's less effective now than it was a year ago, because you don't even get the full 16% discount anymore.

Wise Mage is even more hilariously useless because you can apply minor vulnerability with any lightning proc. It's not even just inferior to IA, it's only signature effect is duplicated by one mag build with reasonable spell crit casting wall of zap.

Of course saying, "here's proof that garbage exists," is kinda non-constructive because, yes, there are sets that are completely unworkable. "Hey, you can't say some sets would be good, look, a wild Prayer Shawl appears!"

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

What possible "power budget" scheme could they be using to have decided that Wise Mage and AA are of equivalent 5-piece utility (answer: there isn't one)?

Again, Wise Mage (and Celerity) are vestigial sets. Why they still exist at all is a mystery for another day.

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

I think that nearly everyone can agree with the essence of the OP's point (even if you disagree about the precise number of sets that fall into this category): that ZOS should first busy themselves with buffing into usefulness the game's many useless sets and then and only then resume the Bloodroot Forge sacrificing of sets to the cruel Reachmen nerf god.

This part is incorrect. Power creep trivializes content, and creates real problems in PvP. For a developer who doesn't address the power creep at its source, their only option is to continue dialing the content up to the point where players are dependent on the broken builds to progress. This creates a situation where you really do have fewer build options. Buffing other sets into line with broken sets doesn't fix the problem, it only further expands it. Because matching them will produce even more powerful, unplanned combos, meaning that content needs to be recalibrated even further, and further trivializing older content, at which point you need to dial everything up in order to keep it relevant.

Except, while this arms race is going on, you're locking newer players out of being able to get the gear they need to get started. So, you slam the door on new players, while existing players run out of control.

In PvP this becomes even worse, because you're now handing newbies to veteran players on a silver platter, and they have no defense.

So, no, the original point is flawed. It feels better in the moment from a purely sensational perspective, but it's very bad for the long term health of the game.

Major_Lag wrote: »

...the real problem is that over half of the sets in the game are so bad that they aren't even worth looking at, unless you are a RPer maybe.

If they aren't worth looking at, then you didn't look at them, and don't understand whether they're viable or not.

The problem in ESO has never been that there aren't enough viable sets, it's been people who glibly say, "oh, that's trash," because, "everyone knows," and don't bother actually checking.

It's kinda funny because I can think of at least one content creator who's spent a lot of time digging through the trash and found some downright broken combos. Even funnier, because ZOS has featured him on the front page. So, they clearly like what he's doing, at least to some extent.

Major_Lag wrote: »

Lol
In PvP, player skill >>> character gear.

You could take a bad player, give them all golded out BiS meta gear...

So this might be a surprise to you, but, in PvP a skilled player can wear good gear.

Another thing that might be news is that there really isn't such a thing as BiS in ESO's PvP. All you've got are players who see what the big kids are wearing and think, "they must be wearing it because it's teh bestist!" It's not, it's just gear that gets the job done. I realize you might be worshiping some idiot who preaches that their's is "the truth, the way, and the light," but especially in PvP, there is not a single path to turning your foes into paste, and anyone who tells you that, is either deluding themselves or trying to keep you from looking at what other players are doing when they turn you to paste.

Some of the most brutal combos I've taken into PvP were not on anyone's, BiS list. Anyone who preaches BiS is already, severely, limiting themselves.

Elusiin wrote: »

SupremeRissole wrote: »

There are so many sets in this game and from a PvP or endgame PvE perspective, 90% of them are pretty much useless. When ZOS adds new sets, we don't get more options like you would expect, in some cases we get less.
Take for example stuhns fury.
ZOS added one set, and at a bare minimum, have removed two sets from viability, Spriggans and Spinners. Why on earth would I use those sets when I now can just craft Stuhns.
Take New Moon Acolyte, we gained one new set, and deconned Julianos and Hundings.
And while I understand they have to sell chapters and DLCs by manipulating the meta (e.g morrowind - war machine/master architect meta, summerset - rele/siroria meta, elswyer - necro, lokke/false gods meta), the whole "play how you want" lie just gets worse every year.
There will always be a meta, people don't want to gimp themseves by wearing non-optimal gear, that won't change.
But instead of nerfing the only good sets into oblivion (I agree on tank meta needing a change, I agree BS needed a nerf but not as bad as it did recieve) and then adding new OP sets for us to flock to, can you please for once buff sets we never use so that we have some sort of diversity. ZOS have proven its possible, look at the buff to elfbane combined with the vAS staff. All of a sudden we have a unique build using old gear and it's fun, well at least for one patch I guess.

I like the direction they're taking, to kill metas and make other sets more viable. Especially liked the baseline crit resistance. This game needs more build diversity, especially in PvP.

Nerfing a good alternative to a garbage set doesn't make that garbage set any less garbage, it just removes a good alternative to it.

Agree. Nerf never gone well in this game. In my opinion the team should work on subpar skills/set/class etc, not nerf the good ones . 🥺

TheInfernalRage wrote: »

The reason why people are obsessed with BiS is that most of the efficient gameplay in endgame is designed to be one-dimensional: stack and burn...

No, the reason people are obsessed with BiS is because they're primed, from other games, to expect BiS. Stack & Burn is optimizing, that's a strategy that has nothing to do with your gear.

The problem is that we've got stuff that's overperforming to the point where you can stack and burn (virtually) anything, and at that point the actual encounter design becomes, like you said, stuff you did between stack and burns.