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Stuhn's Favor a bit much

  • wylievc
    wylievc
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    I'm not testing on the PTS myself, but just going to chime in on the math. I built myself a calculator to compare the "Mundus Power" equivalent of sets, based on the Mundus stone stat "conversion rates" (i.e. wep/spell dmg, stam/mag recovery, resistances, penetration, health, stam/mag, crit chance, crit dmg %, healing %, excluding The Steed). I understand that different stats scale differently on different classes/builds, but this is a way to obtain the baseline "power" of set bonuses, as long as they can be approximated into the stats given by Mundus Stones. Most sets seem to be balanced around providing an equivalent bonus of 2.89 Mundus stones worth of bonus stats.

    Actually it seems like most flat-bonus sets are balanced very closely to 2.89 "Mundus Power". For example, Hunding's Rage = 2.89, Spriggan's Thorn = 2.88, Fortified Brass (current) = 2.88, Ancient Dragon Guard (>50% | <50% life) = 2.89 | 2.88.

    Other proc-based sets seem to be balanced similarly. For example, Briarheart (no proc | proc | proc on cooldown, ignores healing) = 1.63 | 3.52 | 2.89, Warrior's Fury (no proc | full proc | avg proc ) = 1.62 | 4.14 | 2.88.

    Then you have trade-off sets that provide you a bonus at a cost, these usually scale higher in "Mundus Power" but their trade-offs are usually mathematically intangible or hard to approximate. For example, New Moon Acolyte (normal | adjusted for 5% cost increase ~-175? recovery) = 3.65 | 2.91, Bone Pirate's Tatters (forced to use drinks) = 3.24, Shackle Breaker (value only 1 resource | value both resources) = 2.07 | 3.60, Strength of the Automaton (physical damage bonus doesn't apply to healing) = 3.31, Essence Thief (no proc | proc - regen & 10% dmg approximation at 600 wep dmg) = 1.62 | 7.42(!).

    Now, Armor of Truth, which is somewhat similar to Stuhn's Favor, IMO is kind of a mix of a proc-based and trade-off set. The proc, obviously, is the off-balance proc, where trade off is that the cooldown for the set is very large, and you can't environmentally control when and where off-balanced enemies occur, within reason. Armor of Truth (no proc | proc | proc on cooldown) = 1.63 | 3.56 | 3.12. Proccing on cooldown for Armor of Truth is 17/22 seconds, due to 10 sec buff applied at beginning and end of 7 sec off-balance window, with 22 sec off-balance cooldown

    Okay so, Stuhn's Favor (no proc | proc | proc on cooldown) = 1.62 | 6.48 | 3.17. Proccing on cooldown is based on bonus during 7 sec of 22 sec off-balance cooldown. Compared to Armor of Truth, the off proc conditions of these sets are basically equivalent. The on proc condition for Stuhn's is 82% greater than Truth, but its duration is 41%. The average condition, based on 7 sec of 22 sec, is more or less similar to Truth, and no greater than other "trade-off" sets. Also note, penetration doesn't scale healing like wep dmg does.

    So mathematically, it checks out. But practically speaking, especially in PvP, you aren't in a DPS parse while comparing these sets. The reality is you will be getting this bonus after the first time you Dizzying Swing any enemy and for the following 7 seconds, at which you have vastly superior power, and as such, the fight won't last longer than those 7 seconds due to that. So you are getting a reliably massively powerful set bonus with the trade-off being if you suck too much to seal the deal in 7 seconds you are weak for the next 22 seconds unless you simply swap targets. Seems pretty powerful, but also niche/one-trick pony.

    One way to tune or "dampen" the set is to tone down the penetration value, but in doing so you would need to increase the duration. Maybe similar to Truth, but 5sec, and by reducing the penetration to 7800 from 13355. If this were the case Stun's Favor (no proc | proc | proc on cooldown) = 1.62 | 4.46 | 3.17. Same no proc and avg, with reduced peak power.

    So I can't really comment on the set, as I haven't tested it myself but hopefully some math will shed some light on the set.
    Edited by wylievc on April 23, 2020 9:56PM
  • Giljabrar
    Giljabrar
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    wylievc wrote: »
    I'm not testing on the PTS myself, but just going to chime in on the math. I built myself a calculator to compare the "Mundus Power" equivalent of sets, based on the Mundus stone stat "conversion rates" (i.e. wep/spell dmg, stam/mag recovery, resistances, penetration, health, stam/mag, crit chance, crit dmg %, healing %, excluding The Steed). I understand that different stats scale differently on different classes/builds, but this is a way to obtain the baseline "power" of set bonuses, as long as they can be approximated into the stats given by Mundus Stones. Most sets seem to be balanced around providing an equivalent bonus of 2.89 Mundus stones worth of bonus stats.

    Actually it seems like most flat-bonus sets are balanced very closely to 2.89 "Mundus Power". For example, Hunding's Rage = 2.89, Spriggan's Thorn = 2.88, Fortified Brass (current) = 2.88, Ancient Dragon Guard (>50% | <50% life) = 2.89 | 2.88.

    Other proc-based sets seem to be balanced similarly. For example, Briarheart (no proc | proc | proc on cooldown, ignores healing) = 1.63 | 3.52 | 2.89, Warrior's Fury (no proc | full proc | avg proc ) = 1.62 | 4.14 | 2.88.

    Then you have trade-off sets that provide you a bonus at a cost, these usually scale higher in "Mundus Power" but their trade-offs are usually mathematically intangible or hard to approximate. For example, New Moon Acolyte (normal | adjusted for 5% cost increase ~-175? recovery) = 3.65 | 2.91, Bone Pirate's Tatters (forced to use drinks) = 3.24, Shackle Breaker (value only 1 resource | value both resources) = 2.07 | 3.60, Strength of the Automaton (physical damage bonus doesn't apply to healing) = 3.31, Essence Thief (no proc | proc - regen & 10% dmg approximation at 600 wep dmg) = 1.62 | 7.42(!).

    Now, Armor of Truth, which is somewhat similar to Stuhn's Favor, IMO is kind of a mix of a proc-based and trade-off set. The proc, obviously, is the off-balance proc, where trade off is that the cooldown for the set is very large, and you can't environmentally control when and where off-balanced enemies occur, within reason. Armor of Truth (no proc | proc | proc on cooldown) = 1.63 | 3.56 | 3.12. Proccing on cooldown for Armor of Truth is 17/22 seconds, due to 10 sec buff applied at beginning and end of 7 sec off-balance window, with 22 sec off-balance cooldown

    Okay so, Stuhn's Favor (no proc | proc | proc on cooldown) = 1.62 | 6.48 | 3.17. Proccing on cooldown is based on bonus during 7 sec of 22 sec off-balance cooldown. Compared to Armor of Truth, the off proc conditions of these sets are basically equivalent. The on proc condition for Stuhn's is 82% greater than Truth, but its duration is 41%. The average condition, based on 7 sec of 22 sec, is more or less similar to Truth, and no greater than other "trade-off" sets. Also note, penetration doesn't scale healing like wep dmg does.

    So mathematically, it checks out. But practically speaking, especially in PvP, you aren't in a DPS parse while comparing these sets. The reality is you will be getting this bonus after the first time you Dizzying Swing any enemy and for the following 7 seconds, at which you have vastly superior power, and as such, the fight won't last longer than those 7 seconds due to that. So you are getting a reliably massively powerful set bonus with the trade-off being if you stuck too much to seal the deal you are weak for the next 22 seconds unless you simply swap targets. Seems pretty powerful, but also niche/one-trick pony.

    So I can't really comment on the set, as I haven't tested it myself but hopefully some math will shed some light on the set.

    I really appreciate this. It does add some perspective.

    As someone who's fought against this set for hours on the PTS, I find it to just be too overwhelming.

    If you don't dogeroll for basically 7 seconds straight, you, are, dead.

    I was seeing damage numbers on my death recap that made me feel like a PvE trash mob.

    While yes this set is only a 1.62 off proc, the on proc is all that matters in this situation.

    People saying there's counter play to this setup, are either stacking HP and %resists, or haven't actually fought against this set on the PTS.

    If you could still purge off balance, at least there would be SOMETHING you can do against this set in its uptime. Most players could hold block, fully buffed with heals running, and still die to nearly any off balance combo attack. Typically in under 3-4 seconds lol
  • Yiko
    Yiko
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    wylievc wrote: »
    Okay so, Stuhn's Favor (no proc | proc | proc on cooldown) = 1.62 | 6.48 | 3.17. Proccing on cooldown is based on bonus during 7 sec of 22 sec off-balance cooldown. Compared to Armor of Truth, the off proc conditions of these sets are basically equivalent. The on proc condition for Stuhn's is 82% greater than Truth, but its duration is 41%. The average condition, based on 7 sec of 22 sec, is more or less similar to Truth, and no greater than other "trade-off" sets. Also note, penetration doesn't scale healing like wep dmg does.

    So mathematically, it checks out. But practically speaking, especially in PvP, you aren't in a DPS parse while comparing these sets. The reality is you will be getting this bonus after the first time you Dizzying Swing any enemy and for the following 7 seconds, at which you have vastly superior power, and as such, the fight won't last longer than those 7 seconds due to that. So you are getting a reliably massively powerful set bonus with the trade-off being if you suck too much to seal the deal in 7 seconds you are weak for the next 22 seconds unless you simply swap targets. Seems pretty powerful, but also niche/one-trick pony.
    @wylievc
    The proc isn't tied to your character - it's tied to a target. You can have 100% uptime on the 5 pc of Stuhn if you're rotating off balance on targets or finish off your first target and move on to the next..
    so not only does it not make sense in the "it has average of X value over time like other sets, so it's fine" (because spikes of burst damage are more valuable for securing kills in this game than average damage), it doesn't actually have to lose THAT much value in practice.

    Also I like your "mundus power" equivalency for evaluation. I use 2/3/4 set bonuses myself. Helps put things into perspective (and also makes you wonder about the reasoning, or lackthereof, behind a LOT of design decisions)
  • Giljabrar
    Giljabrar
    ✭✭✭✭
    Yiko wrote: »
    The proc isn't tied to your character - it's tied to a target. You can have 100% uptime on the 5 pc of Stuhn if you're rotating off balance on targets or finish off your first target and move on to the next..
    so not only does it not make sense in the "it has average of X value over time like other sets, so it's fine" (because spikes of burst damage are more valuable for securing kills in this game than average damage), it doesn't actually have to lose THAT much value in practice.

    That is an extremely valid point. And should heavily be considered when balancing/reworking this set in the PTS cycles.

    Edited by Giljabrar on April 23, 2020 10:58PM
  • Yiko
    Yiko
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    Giljabrar wrote: »
    Yiko wrote: »
    The proc isn't tied to your character - it's tied to a target. You can have 100% uptime on the 5 pc of Stuhn if you're rotating off balance on targets or finish off your first target and move on to the next..
    so not only does it not make sense in the "it has average of X value over time like other sets, so it's fine" (because spikes of burst damage are more valuable for securing kills in this game than average damage), it doesn't actually have to lose THAT much value in practice.

    That is an extremely valid point. And should heavily be considered when balancing/reworking this set in the PTS cycles.

    Definitely should be considered. I'd already mentioned it twice in this exact thread and once in another of the Stuhn threads among my other points, but people don't like to read through threads before posting :(
    This set is overtuned atm and has poorly conceived proc conditions. It also doesn't accomplish the goal I imagine they intended it to. It's an everyone-killer, not a tank killer specifically. Just like they're blanket nerfing healing by 20% instead of addressing certain abilities or mechanics that are deemed overperforming.
    Edited by Yiko on April 23, 2020 11:24PM
  • Giljabrar
    Giljabrar
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    @Yiko yeah they have a tendency to only read the first, and last post on a thread. That's why I made a poll based around the set, gives a faster look at the general opinions of the set.
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