High Health Stage 3 Vampire Thrassian Magcro

RiskyChalice863
RiskyChalice863
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Assuming that Thrassian Stranglers actually works and isn’t artificially difficult to keep the stacks up on, then in PvP I will be running a Stage 3 Vampire Magcro, who runs Thrassian Stranglers and stacks a good deal of health.

Why stack health?

The concept here would be that Thrassian Stranglers and the Vampire toggle and passive can provide an absolute boatload of spell damage. The issue would be the 40% extra damage taken. If facing sustained damage, I don’t think that would actually be a huge problem, since the extra spell damage will make your heals be so high that you could essentially heal through the same stuff you’d be able to heal through without Thrassian. So the bigger issue is burst damage—which you’d obviously be very susceptible to when using Thrassian. But I think you can stack >40% extra health pretty easily to mitigate this (whereas it’d actually be difficult to stack 40% *extra* damage resistance into a build). If you’ve got >40% more max health than a normal build, then you won’t actually be easier to burst down.

Why Stage 3 Vampire?

Beyond the spell damage from the Vampire toggle and passive, a big reason to go Vampire here is that Undeath actually *will* mitigate the extra damage from Thrassian when you are low health. And since you’re a high-health build, there actually will still be a lot of health to work with when that happens. With massive heals due to Thrassian and the extra damage mitigation essentially eliminating the extra damage taken, you’ll be very hard to kill if someone got you low. And it’d be a dangerous game to get you low and fail to kill you, since you could use the Vampire spammable to output extremely high damage. Similarly, Mist Form will more than mitigate the extra damage taken.

Why Necromancer?

There are several reasons that Necromancer fits this build the best. The biggest one is that Necros are hit the least by the 20% cost increase from being a Vampire. Blastbones, Skeletal Mage, and Mender are very cheap due to the Reusable Parts passive and Summoner’s Armor, so a 15% cost increase isn’t actually a big deal. Meanwhile, the Tethers and Bitter Harvest are free anyways. Obviously, there will still be some abilities where the 15% cost increase hurts, but if you’re using the Vampire spammable and stun and mist form, then the decrease in Vampire skill cost actually probably will leave your sustain in a really good place overall, as a ton of your abilities will be really cheap. Meanwhile, Necros are also good for this because the 10% damage mitigation from Mender will help a lot.

Potential Build Details

This is more of a general concept, and less tied to very specific gear sets (besides Thrassian), but you could do something like this with the gear:

5x Plague Doctor
5x Warrior-Poet (or Vampire Cloak, depending on whether you use Psijiic ult)
1x Thrassian Stranglers
1x Stonekeeper (or Domihaus or whatever other 1pc bonus you want)

And the skills might look like this:

Front Bar:

Arterial Burst
Stalking Blastbones
Hypnosis
Sated Fury
Inner Light OR Elemental Drain OR Degeneration (if not wanting to use spell power potions)
Swarming Scion

Back Bar:

Summoner’s Armor
Mortal Coil
Elusive Mist
Spirit Guardian
Healing Ward OR Resistant Flesh
Temporal Guard

I’m on console so I can’t use the PTS, but just fiddling around on UESP build editor, I believe this would result in huge damage to the point of over 8300 spell damage and over 30,000 magicka, in no-CP. This would result in things like a roughly 20k damage tooltip on Blastbones in no-CP. Meanwhile, your health would be over 35k, meaning that even not taking into account the damage mitigation sources you have, that’s the effective equivalent of over 25k health in no-CP, for the purposes of how easy you would be to burst down. Which is actually quite a lot in no-CP, particularly when you take into account the pretty high resistances (over 23k each in no-CP) and multiple sources of damage mitigation. And, in terms of healing, you could have things like an almost 20k Resistant Flesh tooltip, an almost 30k tooltip on Tether, and/or a Healing Ward that could potentially give you an over 12.5k damage shield in PvP. The sustain wouldn’t too be bad either, I don’t think. In the build I quickly put together, you’d be looking at a little over 1400 magicka recovery in no-CP, but that’s while wearing heavy armor (i.e. you’d have the Constitution passive), and a boatload of your abilities would either cost only around 1000-1400 magicka or be entirely free. Elemental Drain could be used if it was an issue. And stamina sustain would be pretty good too, since you’d effectively have almost 1000 stamina recovery in no-CP counting Mortal Coil, as well as the Constitution passive.

I think this would be really strong, as long as Thrassian isn’t glitchy. I suspect it wouldn’t work in BG’s, since you probably lose the stacks you have when you load into the BG, and it would be quite difficult to quickly get those stacks up. But in Cyrodiil and Imperial City, it would probably work—particularly with the NPCs you could farm. That said, if the ability falls off when you do things like enter/exit keeps or something, then it might not be viable.

EDIT: I made some changes in recognition of the point that this wouldn’t synergize well with the Stage 4 invisibility passive. Seems likely this should instead be Stage 3.
Edited by RiskyChalice863 on April 23, 2020 1:23AM
  • RedReign
    RedReign
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    Just to chime in, you lose all stacks with Thrassian Stranglers when you move from one area to another.
  • Vevvev
    Vevvev
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    RedReign wrote: »
    Just to chime in, you lose all stacks with Thrassian Stranglers when you move from one area to another.

    Also when you sneak or go invisible the stacks go away to. The vampire stage 4 passive would not be ideal for OP's strategy. Imagine having to stop running every 2 seconds just so you don't get steamrolled by a zerg because you're trying to preserve your stacks.
    PC NA - Ceyanna Ashton - Breton Vampire MagDK
  • RedReign
    RedReign
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    Vevvev wrote: »
    RedReign wrote: »
    Just to chime in, you lose all stacks with Thrassian Stranglers when you move from one area to another.

    Also when you sneak or go invisible the stacks go away to. The vampire stage 4 passive would not be ideal for OP's strategy. Imagine having to stop running every 2 seconds just so you don't get steamrolled by a zerg because you're trying to preserve your stacks.

    Just mount instead of sprinting
  • Vevvev
    Vevvev
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    RedReign wrote: »

    Just mount instead of sprinting

    Can't if you're in combat :wink:
    PC NA - Ceyanna Ashton - Breton Vampire MagDK
  • RiskyChalice863
    RiskyChalice863
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    Vevvev wrote: »
    RedReign wrote: »
    Just to chime in, you lose all stacks with Thrassian Stranglers when you move from one area to another.

    Also when you sneak or go invisible the stacks go away to. The vampire stage 4 passive would not be ideal for OP's strategy. Imagine having to stop running every 2 seconds just so you don't get steamrolled by a zerg because you're trying to preserve your stacks.

    That’s a very good point. I was thinking the cheaper sprint would be nice, but yeah that definitely would mean you shouldn’t go Stage 4 with this. Or at least, if you went stage 4, you wouldn’t want that passive. There’d probably be little reason to be stage 4 without the passive though. It’d make a bunch of the vampire abilities cheaper, but the downsides of level 4 probably outweigh that.

    RedReign wrote: »
    Just to chime in, you lose all stacks with Thrassian Stranglers when you move from one area to another.

    I’d read that but I’m curious what counts as moving to another area for these purposes. Like, if you get a random load screen briefly in Cyrodiil, do you lose the stacks? Do you lose them if you enter a keep? Or are we just talking like losing the stacks when you do something like travel from Grahtwood to Greenshade? If it stays stacked throughout all of Cyrodiil and only really resets when go between the Imperial City and the Imperial City Sewers, then it should be relatively functional for all PvP besides BGs. It’d be a bit of a grind if you died (which I assume removes the stacks) to kill 20 NPCs, but I doubt it’s TOO bad, not to mention that the build would still be good even without being at the full 20 stacks. You could be at 10 stacks and it’d still be good. You’d still do solid damage, and you’d be tankier.
    Edited by RiskyChalice863 on April 23, 2020 12:51AM
  • Luckylancer
    Luckylancer
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    40% increased damage is no joke. I think anyone that wants to use this needs a guard user next to it.
  • XomRhoK
    XomRhoK
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    40% increased damage is no joke. I think anyone that wants to use this needs a guard user next to it.
    You just need be a sniper and have Major Expedition skill.

    I really don't understand what ZOS doing, many players say that overland content is too easy, that mechanics in dungeons can be bypassed by huge DPS, that people don't like being one shot sniped in PvP and after that ZOS continue to introduce things like Thrassian Stranglers, Blood Frenzy, Strike From The Shadows passive. Almost 4k weapon and spell damage out of nowhere... Seems they are incapable to introduce interesting mechanics and interactions, all they capable is to introduce numbers.

    Do they really don't understand, that DPS and Healing, in their game, scaling from same stats and if you raise Damage you also raise Healing output, and all "dangerous drawbacks" will be simply bypassed by increased healing capabilities...
    Edited by XomRhoK on April 23, 2020 9:48AM
  • cheemers
    cheemers
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    Sorry to burst your bubble but Thrassian won't be PvP relevant. You lose the bonus when you die or transitus and have to build it back up. If you want your cyrodiil experience to consist of:

    30% killing overland wolves
    65% riding your horse to look for fights
    4% getting one shot by a snipe
    1% overkilling some poor enemy low CP

    Then by all means use Thrassian.
    Youtube channel: https://youtube.com/channel/UCDQ7FrJ0AjMt2auffLEf_Pw

    PS4 EU - 18 characters, all DC
  • RiskyChalice863
    RiskyChalice863
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    cheemers wrote: »
    Sorry to burst your bubble but Thrassian won't be PvP relevant. You lose the bonus when you die or transitus and have to build it back up. If you want your cyrodiil experience to consist of:

    30% killing overland wolves
    65% riding your horse to look for fights
    4% getting one shot by a snipe
    1% overkilling some poor enemy low CP

    Then by all means use Thrassian.

    Haha, in theory the “4% getting one shot by a snipe” wouldn’t happen, unless it already would happen now—because you’d have more than 40% extra health compared to a normal build. With the above build, you’d actually be harder to one-shot than with a normal build. For instance, in the above build I very quickly put together, you’d have about 40.8k health in Cyrodiil. So, even with the 40% extra damage taken, it’s basically the equivalent to over 29k health for the purposes of being one-shot.

    And, also, in theory, if it’s really good, then you wouldn’t die.

    That said, it’s true that practically speaking it could be a bit frustrating to essentially not be able to use transitus without losing your stacks. That said, the build would still be good even with a somewhat lower number of stacks—for instance, 1500 extra spell damage would still be a lot and would come with lower extra damage taken. So, it may be true that you could use transitus a bit still and just kill some NPCs you find along the way.

    I’m also curious about Imperial City. Specifically, I’m wondering if you lose the Thrassian stacks when you use a door in the Imperial City or the Sewers. I assume you’d lose the stacks if you traveled between the Imperial City itself and the Sewers, but what I’m wondering about is the doors between areas within those. So, for instance, do you lose the stacks when you go from the Arena District to the Arboretum District? If you don’t lose the stacks when you do something like that, then Thrassian would be pretty easy to maintain in the IC. If you do lose them, then it’d be a bit more of a pain—though there’s so many NPCs everywhere in IC/Sewers that it’d still probably be workable.
  • RiskyChalice863
    RiskyChalice863
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    I think you could also do a good version of this without Vampire.

    Vampire would definitely be good. The extra damage mitigation at low health would synergize really well with a high-health Thrassian build. The vampire spammable would hit really hard. You’d get an AOE stun. And you’d get access to even more spell damage. So, Vampire could in theory output more damage and be tankier.

    That said, one concern I realized with the Vampire version of this build is just that you’d need to be in melee range, and at least for the Necromancer version of the build, you wouldn’t have much of any mobility outside of Mist Form and you are lacking in snares unless you use some kind of snare poison. So it may be hard to stay on top of people. You could potentially slot something like Race Against Time (maybe in place of Inner Light or the Vampire toggle). But anything you slot to try to gap close would be really expensive because of Vampire.

    So, one other option is to forego Vampire and go with a ranged build.

    For example, you could stay as a Magcro, and go with something like 5x Warrior-Poet, 5x Mark of the Pariah, 1x Thrassian Stranglers, and 1x Domihaus—and then use a skill loadout like this:

    Front Bar:

    Crushing Shock OR Ricochet Skull
    Stalking Blastbones
    Flame Clench
    Elemental Drain
    Inner Light OR Degeneration
    Glacial Colossus

    Back Bar:

    Summoner’s Armor
    Intensive Mender OR Spirit Guardian
    Radiating Regeneration OR Mortal Coil
    Resistant Flesh OR Healing Ward
    Deaden Pain OR Hexproof OR Expunge & Modify
    Ravenous Goliath OR Temporal Guard. OR Life Giver

    You could also replace something on the front bar—probably Inner Light or Elemental Drain—with Avid Boneyard and do a harmony build with it.

    The overall point, though, is that you can pretty easily get a build that has the following attributes, in no-CP:

    1. About 31k health, and over 28k resistances even with Pariah at its lowest value, as well as potential access to major protection, minor protection, 10% extra mitigation, 15% damage mitigation against DoTs, about 8k more resistances from Pariah when low health, some minor maim uptime from Crushing Shock, and potentially very high additional resistances from Resistant Flesh. So this build would be tough to burst down, even with the 40% extra damage taken. At least for me, it’d be harder to burst down than builds I currently play on live.

    2. The healing numbers could be astronomical. For example, with just Radiating Regeneration, Intensive Mender, and Deaden Pain, we’re talking about roughly 6k+ self-healing per second in no-CP, even with the PvP healing nerf (and that’s assuming the only conditional passive affecting healing that is triggered is the one for having negative effects on you). Meanwhile, if you actually are low health, a Resistant Flesh crit could heal you for like half your health bar.

    3. Over 9k spell power, as per UESP build editor—which means, for example, about 10k tooltip damage on Crushing Shock, along with around 17k tooltip damage on Blastbones (again, in no-CP), almost a 12k per-hit tooltip on Colossus, and well over 6k damage per light attack. And all of that can be done at range.

    4. I believe solid magicka sustain. We’re only talking about somewhere just above 1400 magicka recovery and about 30k or so magicka (in no-CP). Not bad, but not super high either. But you’ll have lots of recovery from Constitution and Elemental Drain, and about half of your abilities will either not cost any magicka at all (Elemental Drain, Mortal Coil, Deaden Pain, Hexproof/Expunge & Modify), cost an incredibly small amount of magicka (Blastbones and Intensive Mender/Spirit Guardian), or be an ability you never use (Inner Light). And the ones that aren’t named there are all still pretty cheap except for Resistant Flesh/Healing Ward—which won’t be an ability you’ll spam. Expunge & Modify could add a ton to sustain if need be as well. You also will do most of your damage with destruction staff abilities or light attacks, which means you’ll get lots of sustain from kills. And you’ll also have access to resto staff heavy attacks that are buffed by heavy armor. I suspect magicka sustain wouldn’t really be an issue here.

    5. Good stamina sustain as well, due to the Necromancer recovery passive and Constitution, as well as potentially Mortal Coil and/or Expunge & Modify, and potentially the High Elf passive.

    Overall, I just think it’d be very strong. And it actually wouldn’t be that big of a deal if you lost your Thrassian stacks IMO. The build would basically just function differently depending on the number of stacks. It’d function as a tank build with no Thrassian stacks (maybe with a bit of a different skill loadout). All that potential mitigation combined with high health would make for a good tank. The more NPCs/players you kill, the more the build’s damage would ramp up and its tankiness ramp down. For instance, at 10 kills, it’d actually be a pretty good damaging build (7000-7500 spell power in no-CP), but actually be quite tanky. And as described above, at 20 kills, it’d hit really hard and still not be a glass cannon.
    Edited by RiskyChalice863 on April 29, 2020 12:08PM
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