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Please Reconsider the Grundwulf Nerf
YandereGirlfriend
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I was frankly shocked and scandalized to see this set come in for a nerf.
This set comes from a relatively difficult DLC dungeon and it is literally the only DPS-focused sustain set available in the entirety of the game.
Despite that, I never see it mentioned in popular builds or, more importantly, complained about on the forums: by literally anyone.
How is a titanic 30% nerf to a niche set in any way justified? Especially when BiS sets like Selene's are getting buffed? What possible logic is being applied to this process?
Balancing via spreadsheet is a mistake . The mistake compounds itself when the ratios of value between different stats are errant to begin with. The combat team has a perpetual blind spot for the weakness of regeneration as a stat: we see this in the weakness of the Khajiit racial bonuses, in the Invigorating trait, and now we see it on display with Grundwulf.
Flat out: regeneration is not as valuable a stat as pure Damage or Crit or Penetration. The spreadsheet ratio for it is incorrectand it precipitates weakness to any set or ability that is reliant upon it. Please fix the ratio and revert the Grundwulf nerf.
This set comes from a relatively difficult DLC dungeon and it is literally the only DPS-focused sustain set available in the entirety of the game.
Despite that, I never see it mentioned in popular builds or, more importantly, complained about on the forums: by literally anyone.
How is a titanic 30% nerf to a niche set in any way justified? Especially when BiS sets like Selene's are getting buffed? What possible logic is being applied to this process?
Balancing via spreadsheet is a mistake . The mistake compounds itself when the ratios of value between different stats are errant to begin with. The combat team has a perpetual blind spot for the weakness of regeneration as a stat: we see this in the weakness of the Khajiit racial bonuses, in the Invigorating trait, and now we see it on display with Grundwulf.
Flat out: regeneration is not as valuable a stat as pure Damage or Crit or Penetration. The spreadsheet ratio for it is incorrectand it precipitates weakness to any set or ability that is reliant upon it. Please fix the ratio and revert the Grundwulf nerf.
17
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Vet DLC content is too difficult for new players so the Monster sets dropped from them will be dragged down to the standard of easier dungeons so to nobody misses out.1 -
MaxJrFTW✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭There's nothing to reconsider. First of all moongrave fane is a very easy DLC dungeon, one of the easiest in the game. I'd go as far as saying it is under-tuned. The set was giving 400 recovery for your main resource and 200 for the other one. It was too strong.
People that knew about the set were crutching on it, and people that didn't...well rip because you missed out on a very strong set."I don't know you, and I don't care to know you."
―Ulrich Leland, 3E 4330 -
llBlack_Heartll✭✭✭✭Who was using this over any other set though? I don’t know anyone, who ran this.4
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xaraan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭This set as it was is barely worth using over a damage set. Now there is no question not to use it.
Definitely should not have been nerfed, especially as much as it has.-- @xaraan --
nightblade: Xaraan • templar: Xaraan-dar • dragon-knight: Xaraanosaurus • necromancer: Xaraan-qa • warden: Xaraanodon • sorcerer: Xaraan-ra
AD • NA • PC6 -
YandereGirlfriend✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭There's nothing to reconsider. First of all moongrave fane is a very easy DLC dungeon, one of the easiest in the game. I'd go as far as saying it is under-tuned. The set was giving 400 recovery for your main resource and 200 for the other one. It was too strong.
People that knew about the set were crutching on it, and people that didn't...well rip because you missed out on a very strong set.
[snip]
If the set was truly so amazing and the dungeon was truly so easy then why were so few actually using the set? Why haven't we been living in the Grundwulf meta ever since Scalebreaker rather than with the continued domination of Zaan and Selene?
Regarding "crutches", I can only assume that this is some secret list of sets that you maintain for the benefit of the rest of us? If it is simply a synonym for "popular" then why aren't ubiquitous sets such as Selene's (or Relequen *cough*) ever mentioned as a crutch? Especially when they are quite literally free damage to pad your DPS.
[edited for baiting]Edited by ZOS_Lunar on April 22, 2020 2:02PM2 -
John_Falstaff✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭llBlack_Heartll wrote: »Who was using this over any other set though? I don’t know anyone, who ran this.
I did sometimes. First, there are pug runs where you hardly get any resources, there are 3DD runs where it complemented Symphony on tank, there are places where you're far away from healer like vSS portals so if you have troubles sustaining on your own or running the (freshly deceased) Master Architect instead of PFG, you put on Grundwulf, and so on and so forth.1 -
llBlack_Heartll✭✭✭✭John_Falstaff wrote: »llBlack_Heartll wrote: »Who was using this over any other set though? I don’t know anyone, who ran this.
I did sometimes. First, there are pug runs where you hardly get any resources, there are 3DD runs where it complemented Symphony on tank, there are places where you're far away from healer like vSS portals so if you have troubles sustaining on your own or running the (freshly deceased) Master Architect instead of PFG, you put on Grundwulf, and so on and so forth.
So very niche situations....
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Runefang✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I don't get it either. It was really only useful for the unoptimised groups, so why the nerf? With all this standardisation why did it come out over tuned to need such a large nerf to begin with?
For me it was only used in dungeon pug runs because the healers rarely seem to use ele drain, there was virtually nowhere else it was helpful.4 -
Casul✭✭✭✭✭
✭I ran it for a bit, after a day or two I went back to stormfist. And oh look! stormfist got a buff.PvP needs more love.1 -
John_Falstaff✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭llBlack_Heartll wrote: »John_Falstaff wrote: »llBlack_Heartll wrote: »Who was using this over any other set though? I don’t know anyone, who ran this.
I did sometimes. First, there are pug runs where you hardly get any resources, there are 3DD runs where it complemented Symphony on tank, there are places where you're far away from healer like vSS portals so if you have troubles sustaining on your own or running the (freshly deceased) Master Architect instead of PFG, you put on Grundwulf, and so on and so forth.
So very niche situations....
Niche != useless. Instead of having fewer choices, we best have more choices, even if many sets are situational.0 -
Ezhh✭✭✭✭✭
✭Most mag DDs are already using False God, a recovery set, and for me Grundwulf only gets added to that in groups where supports are not providing me with any sustain. I certainly prefer to use a set that gives damage instead, because the more I'm forced into building for recovery, the worse my potential damage becomes. Having 2/3 of my sets be sustain sets isn't something I ever want, but I don't play a breton so I accept sometimes I will need to.
What hits a bit hard is losing value from this set on top of losing the vamp recovery passive which has also felt quite necessary to have, especially on a non-breton mag DD. This change in turn will make Grundwulf more likely to be needed... And now it will do less.
I haven't done much PTS testing of things at all yet (it keeps crashing for me), but adding things up, it feels like sustain could well be getting worse again...1 -
John_Falstaff✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭It's not about recovery sets, just, do you want PFG to be end-all be-all solution for magicka? But I have to admit, that now that Roaring Opportunist basically brutalized my last reason to run Master Architect - the only group buff magblades were still able to bring to the table - I don't have that excuse not to run PFG. Much choice. Wow diversity.0 -
YandereGirlfriend✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭John_Falstaff wrote: »Niche != useless. Instead of having fewer choices, we best have more choices, even if many sets are situational.
I second you here.
My idea of balance is to have many options that are strong at niche things rather than having a smaller of number of viable sets that have universal application.
This ill-conceived nerf simply adds Grundwulf to the brimming refuse heap of sets labeled: "Too weak to use in any situation" which is quite a shame indeed.
@ZOS_GinaBruno1 -
llBlack_Heartll✭✭✭✭John_Falstaff wrote: »llBlack_Heartll wrote: »John_Falstaff wrote: »llBlack_Heartll wrote: »Who was using this over any other set though? I don’t know anyone, who ran this.
I did sometimes. First, there are pug runs where you hardly get any resources, there are 3DD runs where it complemented Symphony on tank, there are places where you're far away from healer like vSS portals so if you have troubles sustaining on your own or running the (freshly deceased) Master Architect instead of PFG, you put on Grundwulf, and so on and so forth.
So very niche situations....
Niche != useless. Instead of having fewer choices, we best have more choices, even if many sets are situational.
Yeah, so it didn’t need a nerf. Because it is situational.
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Solariken✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Agreed. I've only used this set on one build ever, and it's of course for PvP. I only used it because I thought the dual resource restore was kinda neat. You barely feel it though over using Bloodspawn etc.1 -
Vaoh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Perfect example of why people say they don’t play their own game. They balance on a spreadsheet and call it a day.
Here’s Grundwulf for a Magicka DPS ( opposite max stats for a Stamina DPS)....
• LIVE: Grundwulf gives 1000 Magicka and 500 Stamina on critical hit. 5 second cooldown.
*Max* Gain: 200 Mag+100 Stam per second
• GREYMOOR: Grundwulf gives 700 Magicka and 350 Stamina on critical hit. 5 second cooldown.
*Max* Gain: 140 Mag+70 Stam per second
Those are pure gains. Not Regen (which is increased by % buffs). Meaning you’ll now gain the same or maybe even more sustain through slotting a 1-piece Mag Regen bonus instead of using Grundwulf.
It was barely a usable set. In PvE, dps use:
• Full damage set like Zaan, Slimecraw, etc
• 2x Spell Crit bonuses
• OR, occasionally, Grundwulf if sustain might hurt, effectively trading 1x Spell Crit for this set bonus.
If I missed something feel free to correct me. Going by all of this though it should become just another trash set due to these nerfs.
Edited by Vaoh on April 21, 2020 12:57AM11 -
Kolzki✭✭✭✭✭Perfect example of why people say they don’t play their own game. They balance on a spreadsheet and call it a day.
Here’s Grundwulf for a Magicka DPS ( opposite max stats for a Stamina DPS)....
• LIVE: Grundwulf gives 1000 Magicka and 500 Stamina on critical hit. 5 second cooldown.
*Max* Gain: 200 Mag+100 Stam per second
• GREYMOOR: Grundwulf gives 700 Magicka and 350 Stamina on critical hit. 5 second cooldown.
*Max* Gain: 140 Mag+70 Stam per second
Those are pure gains. Not Regen (which is increased by % buffs). Meaning you’ll now gain the same or maybe even more sustain through slotting a 1-piece Mag Regen bonus instead of using Grundwulf.
It was barely a usable set. In PvE, dps use:
• Full damage set like Zaan, Slimecraw, etc
• 2x Spell Crit bonuses
• OR, occasionally, Grundwulf if sustain might hurt, effectively trading 1x Spell Crit for this set bonus.
If I missed something feel free to correct me. Going by all of this though it should become just another trash set due to these nerfs.
I think you missed the standard regen return ticking every 2 seconds not every 1 second.
The live version gives 200 per second which is the same as a +333 regen bonus before scaling it by the 20% regen buff (333 base x 1.2 = 400 regen = 200 per second).
The pts version gives 140 per second which is the same as a +233 regen bonus before scaling it by the 20% regen buff (233 base x 1.2 = 280 regen after buffs = 140 per second).
The live version is about the same as running dubious camoran. Maybe slightly worse after proc delays.
Was it worth running before? Rarely. Maybe useful if running solo or if you really wanted to run max health + max stat food but couldn't quite sustain it (and lose dps by doing it). At least we can run the one piece on a double crit mag setup.
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YandereGirlfriend✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭At least we can run the one piece on a double crit mag setup.
Now this is powerful evidence of a balance-pass failure.
But seriously, if the best thing to be said about the set is that it can be used as a one-piece, then it's clear that the patch version is a mistake and that the changes must be reverted.Edited by YandereGirlfriend on April 21, 2020 1:55AM5 -
Sluggy✭✭✭✭✭
✭Yeah, I'll put in a vote for 'unnecessary nerf' too. It's fine like it is on live. As a person that runs a hybrid in pvp, this set and engine guardian are two of the three options for hybrid sustain sets and neither provides an overwhelmingly powerful sustain option.
Outside of combat I have literally no way of recovering resources with this set and inside of combat I'm still required to engage with an enemy (i.e. spend resources) to get anything out of it.
While we're at it, the nerf to Engine Guardian wasn't really called for either. Yeah it gave a massive amount of regen to one stat but the random nature of it is what makes it a trade-off.3 -
ne.ga.kurai_ESO✭✭✭I've been running this set on/off for months on a noCP solo stamNB. I actually thought it needed a serious buff. I would never consider slotting the 2pc again.2
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Thal✭✭✭I honestly thought that this was going to be in the category of buffed sets versus nerfed. Honestly shocked... crazy to nerf something that sees such limited, situational use (and more often just for its one piece). With as unique as it is, it could be something really fun to use in certain situations... but now it goes into the dustbin1
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MartiniDaniels✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭It was nice set for magicka dunmer dps, when zaan is not applicable. Not that I used it often but sometimes it was good.. RIP.2 -
MartiniDaniels✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭It's like a nerf to empowering chains (gap closer morph)... I don't remember when I last saw anybody used it, but I bet there is guy with some suboptimal non-meta build who struggles to play "the way you want"... gotcha, catch a nerf bro, just because somebody nerfs DK each patch a bit just for lulz.1 -
JinxxND✭✭✭✭There's nothing to reconsider. First of all moongrave fane is a very easy DLC dungeon, one of the easiest in the game. I'd go as far as saying it is under-tuned. The set was giving 400 recovery for your main resource and 200 for the other one. It was too strong.
People that knew about the set were crutching on it, and people that didn't...well rip because you missed out on a very strong set.
LOL what in the world are you talking aboutPC NA -
'Jinxx - Nightblade
'Jinxx X Necromancer1 -
JinxxND✭✭✭✭This set wasn't used in PvE content because it netted a dps loss and in PvP where it has more applications was mainly used for the off stat sustain which needed a buff anyways hence why rarely anyone used it. As for the main stat it would better supported by a raw value that is affected by % modifiers which is why people used sets such as bloodspawn (RIP)PC NA -
'Jinxx - Nightblade
'Jinxx X Necromancer1 -
JinxxND✭✭✭✭I could only see this set being used in PvP and mainly for off stat sustain which doesn't scale and is only if it crits off CD usually which would require high crit nothing close to any PvE type numbers also running dots which have been nerfed into the ground further gimping your build to proc something for off stat sustain.
Overall the set needed buffs but we have people saying it was OP and abused when even from any mathematical standpoint in a perfect scenario with it proc'd off cd that doesn't make sense.
It was a niche very suboptimal set albeit unique and different, and now for whatever reason it is being gutted to uselessness along with every stat monster set (balorgh looking to be the exception), outside healing and proc dmg ones probably to make room for the new mythic items seeing their ways in builds over most monster sets now.Edited by JinxxND on April 22, 2020 11:22AMPC NA -
'Jinxx - Nightblade
'Jinxx X Necromancer1
