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Magicka Necromancer and the burden of standardization

BohnT2
BohnT2
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Magicka Necromancer in PvP is probably the worst spec out there for solo and small-scale play and this is highly tied to standardization and how the class (and warden before) has been designed.

With the necromancer class you get 3 skill lines one for each playstyle.
This is where the issues begin, with 5 skills and 1 offensive ultimate you can never manage to satisfy all offensive needs a class has to perform well in PvP and PvE and in different situations there be it dueling, solo play, small-scale, or running with a big group.
Those 5 skills are further thinned out in terms of viability for pvp as things like the skulls are exceptionally bad to begin with, a 300/350ms minimum traveltime means you will never ever hit someone even if you stun them in the gcd before (if you had a viable stun to begin with).
Not only that but it also deals only mediocre damage and has no proper secondary effect that would help it, a 20% damage increase doesn't help as you can't play around it, you can't just stop using your spammable because you want to keep the damage buff for when you want to burst someone, because then you will never be able to damage them beforehand which is mandatory with health pools being way too high.

The trend becomes worse when even more skills fail to perform at all in PvP, your dedicated "dot" in the form of the mage fails from the get go. If your target is running away it won't attack it, if you run around your mage will teleport to you and not deal any damage, if you'd like to focus someone who's not the closest target you're SOL with the mage and don't forget the dot has no secondary effect at all.

Now to the skill which gets hit the most by standardization, ofc we're talking about the tether.
In a game that wants to balance PvE and PvP together you will never be able to balance a skill like this as it's either useless in PvP or completely overperforming in PvE.
If you increased the damage enough to make it worthwhile for the effort you have to put in to hit an enemy player even once you'd easily had a skill that would outparse any other spec alone.
As of right now the tether deals disgustingly low damage, even if someone would stay in it for the whole duration he wouldn't even notice the damage as health regen would simply outheal it.

This leaves magicka necromancer with 2 class skills to use in PvP to deal damage and those are blastbones and graveyard.

Stalking Blastbones as we all know have no secondary effect apart from dealing 10% more damage because either they jump instantly or they never go off. Due to this behavior playing a burst combo around them is impossible, you don't want to play russian Roulette when fighting someone with an Assault rifle.

Now we have a single last skill to save magicka necromancers offensive presence in PvP and it actually does that somewhat, it's an unique skill that lets you activate the own synergy for great damage, but ofc there's a catch, putting it down on a player and hoping that he stays in it for you to activate that skill while you burst him is again reliant on your target to be a target dummy and not a player who will do anything not to stay in there. And if you miss it you have to wait 20 seconds in order to get a new chance.

All of this comes down to magicka necromancers offensive presence being cycling any spammable except your class one (last patch it was master destro but rip that or asylum force pulse) and blastbones and then you hope your enemy is grateful enough to just die to it and not simply heal back to full health in between your blastbones coming in.

Now some people might say, but you have a really strong ult that applies major vulnerability and deals a lot of damage.
But that's not the whole story in order for those 30% extra damage to make a difference you have to have damage to begin with and not a single soul stands in the colossus for more than one hit which reduces its damage immensely and makes your 225 ultimate into a glorified spammable hit which applied an overtuned debuff for 8 seconds. The issue here is, your target just got the message "hey i got 8 seconds to kill you, if you survive those I'll never be able to kill you" and they will just play defensive and there is nothing you can do about because you don't have a stun or meaningful damage outside of blastbones.


What makes things even worse is that there are 10 more skills in the necromancers toolkit and none of them will help it kill anything.

This puts necromancer into the odd situation of being completely over saturated in the healing and tanking department when it's absolutely not needed as both of those playstyles can be more than satisfied by a few morphs without taking out whole skills for the offensive playstyle. There's a reason we have 8 DDs and 4 support specs in raids and not vice versa. The same thing is true for skills.


That is why the necromancer class and also the warden class have to be freed from the bad corset of 1 Damage 1 Healing and 1 Tank skill line but be adapted to how the old classes work, they are what made the game and combat great and interesting.
  • Taleof2Cities
    Taleof2Cities
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    Nice post, @BohnT2, but your ideas really should be in the Combat & Character Mechanics section and not PTS.

    PTS is for players and ZOS to evaluate actual changes proposed by ZOS on the test server ... not player ideas that may or may not be in a future patch.

    Though your post is pretty mild-mannered, some players can be rude ... making it that more difficult to view real feedback on the upcoming patch.

    Edited by Taleof2Cities on April 22, 2020 1:39AM
  • BohnT2
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    Nice post, @BohnT2, but your ideas really should be in the Combat & Character Mechanics section and not PTS.

    PTS is for players and ZOS to evaluate actual changes proposed by ZOS on the test server ... not player ideas that may or may not be in a future patch.

    Though your post is pretty mild-mannered, some players can be rude ... making it that more difficult to view real feedback on the upcoming patch.

    I could probably just post it in Fiction and Role-playing as that's where Feedback and Bug reports generally end.
  • John_Falstaff
    John_Falstaff
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    Nice post, @BohnT2, but your ideas really should be in the Combat & Character Mechanics section and not PTS.

    PTS is for players and ZOS to evaluate actual changes proposed by ZOS on the test server ... not player ideas that may or may not be in a future patch.

    Though your post is pretty mild-mannered, some players can be rude ... making it that more difficult to view real feedback on the upcoming patch.

    [snip] If forum mods will consider those not answering the goals of PTS, they'll close the topic or move it. Without your help. What's certainly out of place on PTS forums are comments of the kind you tend to make. You're not providing feedback. You're not offering anything constructive (unlike the post above).[snip].

    [edited for rude and insulting comments]
    Edited by ZOS_FalcoYamaoka on April 22, 2020 1:53PM
  • YandereGirlfriend
    YandereGirlfriend
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    Tether would be interesting in PvP if it acted more like the lasers in Frostvault: that you could use it to physically divide space and control the movement of your opponent for either offense or defense.

    You could keep the DoT damage what it is currently for PvE purposes (though I wouldn't be opposed to a buff) and then condition a long hard CC if you actually crossed into the path of the beam. Getting CC'd would leave you eating the DoT and open to a subsequent combo.

    Like the Frostvault beams, you could of course dodge-roll through it to pass by without taking the stun.

    I think that would create interesting and unique movement mechanics and battles of position that involve more than simply LoS'ing and gap-closing.
  • BohnT2
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    Tether would be interesting in PvP if it acted more like the lasers in Frostvault: that you could use it to physically divide space and control the movement of your opponent for either offense or defense.

    You could keep the DoT damage what it is currently for PvE purposes (though I wouldn't be opposed to a buff) and then condition a long hard CC if you actually crossed into the path of the beam. Getting CC'd would leave you eating the DoT and open to a subsequent combo.

    Like the Frostvault beams, you could of course dodge-roll through it to pass by without taking the stun.

    I think that would create interesting and unique movement mechanics and battles of position that involve more than simply LoS'ing and gap-closing.

    That doesn't help in PvP at all, as you have no control over the CC along side with still not really having an Area denial mechanic as it simply doesn't stop people who can just dodge right through it.
    The only thing it will do is make necromancer better defensive wise which isn't needed at all.

    That's how they should change it:
    Make the damage tether stick to a target and implement the corpse consuming mechanic into it. That protects the movement part of the skill but doesn't make it useless in PvP.

    Detonating siphon would then explode up to 3 corpses during its duration when they get hit by the tether.
    By doing that you give blastbones extra damage and necro additional burst but only for people who keep up the tether and play around it.

    Mystic siphon turns the corpses into sustain fields that restore 300 mag and stam over 5 seconds (120 regen) for any friendly who walks into it (can't stack from different sources) this helps not only DDs but also healers while retaining some damage and thus frees up other skills of the necromancers toolkit to be damage focused rather than only benefiting healers
  • Lughlongarm
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    In my opinion, magicka necro is one of the best candidates to play with stage 4 vamp.
    I theory crafted this build, looks promising.

    Template concept build idea for vamp magicka necros.
    vamp skills really help to fill what magicka necros are missing also, some necro skills cost corpse other than resources, so the 20% penalty doesn't apply on these skills.

    https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=228907 (this is just a template, no minmax, no buffs, no cp), space for the new vamp skills didn't check the new glyphs yet. editor is not updated for the upcoming patch yet.

    The Idea of this build is basically to play around the vamp penalties by maximizing the potential of the ulti morph that gives stage 5.

    5- vemp lord set on the body.
    2 - Bloodspawn (nerfed, but still OK, we want the ult regen)
    1- ring that gives speed(the new one), works great with mist.
    1-will power ring
    1- Potentates amulet
    Willpower- Front bar weapon(whatever you like)
    Potentates -Backbar weapons(whatever you like)

    This combo will make the vamplord ulti cost 130(on back bar).
    With nord passive+bloodspawn+Necrotic potency+vamp leech skill - you can ramp that ulti regen extremely fast.

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