Vampire Cost is Counter Intuitive for Vampire Game Play...
I like the Vampire changes over all, with the exclusion of the Ability Cost.
It discourages playing Vampire characters and discourages using the "Feed" ability.
Shouldn't it work in reverse?
Level 1 Vampire should have 25% Increased costs of all abilities... Vampire level 4 should have 0 Increased Cost (decreasing Vampire abilities should be baked in with decreasing all ability costs...)
This way Vampire characters will be encouraged to actually Feed and maintain their Vampire level at 4, but also make it harder to walk around and interact with NPC's (maybe make that harder overall at level 4)
The change itself is counter intuitive now to wanting people to actually Feed and play as their elected Class. Alternatively making the Vampire essentially a new DPS Sub-class could also work, but would require buffing the current Vampire Abilities...
It discourages playing Vampire characters and discourages using the "Feed" ability.
Shouldn't it work in reverse?
Level 1 Vampire should have 25% Increased costs of all abilities... Vampire level 4 should have 0 Increased Cost (decreasing Vampire abilities should be baked in with decreasing all ability costs...)
This way Vampire characters will be encouraged to actually Feed and maintain their Vampire level at 4, but also make it harder to walk around and interact with NPC's (maybe make that harder overall at level 4)
The change itself is counter intuitive now to wanting people to actually Feed and play as their elected Class. Alternatively making the Vampire essentially a new DPS Sub-class could also work, but would require buffing the current Vampire Abilities...
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Note that it should scale down from 25% + Cost at level 1, 20% at 2, 10% at Level 3, 0% at Level 4, and with the Ultimate if you go to level 5, Minus 5% Cost to all abilities, etc...
Also make it harder to interact with NPC's at level 4 all around...0 -
Paradisius✭✭✭✭I think the only reason the ability cost is there, is to have noticeable detriments for increasing your stage. The devs believe (and rightfully so) that -75% health recovery and +25% flame damage at stage 4 was just easily mitigated, causing people to recommend vampire for any and all builds. This change while it does make people who want to use their current build not feed, as to lower the cost, those who desire the passives and want to use vampiric abilities at a lower cost will feed. Is it the perfect work around? no, but it does work, a way to further enforce this while having some leniency on cost is to change to the stage progression to 0/5/10/15, making people who dont want ability costs to have access to all the abilities but none of the passives, and increasing their stage should they desire more of the passives or should they desire cheaper vampiric abilities.3 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I suspect they designed it so you are incentivized to play as a vampire, similar to how Skyrim's vampire lord form worked or to ESO's werewolf. You aren't locked into the vampire skills, but its harder to use your non-vamp skills.
Now, sure, that's going to make vampire less desirable to players who care about the meta, but it's an interesting design choice nonetheless.1 -
Paradisius wrote: »I think the only reason the ability cost is there, is to have noticeable detriments for increasing your stage. The devs believe (and rightfully so) that -75% health recovery and +25% flame damage at stage 4 was just easily mitigated, causing people to recommend vampire for any and all builds. This change while it does make people who want to use their current build not feed, as to lower the cost, those who desire the passives and want to use vampiric abilities at a lower cost will feed. Is it the perfect work around? no, but it does work, a way to further enforce this while having some leniency on cost is to change to the stage progression to 0/5/10/15, making people who dont want ability costs to have access to all the abilities but none of the passives, and increasing their stage should they desire more of the passives or should they desire cheaper vampiric abilities.
Well, there are offsets... they made the Health Regen 100% no regen at 4 now...
And they could elevate the Flame damage to 50%... But the cost increase just makes it something you wouldn't want to use at all if you intend to play your class... As a healer, for instance +20% cost to all spells will not work... the Vampire would basically just become a RP tree line... with people feeding out of when doing groups... Unless they DPS, but even then the abilities are sub par for it being a pure DPS spec...
If they want to make it intuitive, making you more powerful as you feed, but more vulnerable to fire, no regen, etc, and NPC's fearing you would make more sense... Feeding to get pretty sub-par DPS skills (when compared to other DPS skills) does not make much sense... unless they purely just want a RP type theme...1 -
VaranisArano wrote: »I suspect they designed it so you are incentivized to play as a vampire, similar to how Skyrim's vampire lord form worked or to ESO's werewolf. You aren't locked into the vampire skills, but its harder to use your non-vamp skills.
Now, sure, that's going to make vampire less desirable to players who care about the meta, but it's an interesting design choice nonetheless.
I agree if they made the Vampire damage actually on par with other damage abilities.... if it became its own unique DPS Class, etc, then these changes would make sense...0 -
Paradisius✭✭✭✭skypantherb14_ESO wrote: »Well, there are offsets... they made the Health Regen 100% no regen at 4 now...
And they could elevate the Flame damage to 50%... But the cost increase just makes it something you wouldn't want to use at all if you intend to play your class... As a healer, for instance +20% cost to all spells will not work... the Vampire would basically just become a RP tree line... with people feeding out of when doing groups... Unless they DPS, but even then the abilities are sub par for it being a pure DPS spec...
If they want to make it intuitive, making you more powerful as you feed, but more vulnerable to fire, no regen, etc, and NPC's fearing you would make more sense... Feeding to get pretty sub-par DPS skills (when compared to other DPS skills) does not make much sense... unless they purely just want a RP type theme...
I understand such concern, but thats really the intention here, its not meant to be used by everyone for everyone. Take WW for example, normally people dont reccomend WW to any type of player, even as a stam dps. Its only for people who want to build around the WW playstyle, and is also seen as sub par compared to the meta builds. Vampires will now be in that same boat, its meant for people who want to build around such a skill line. But since Vampires dont inherit the same detriments as WW (That being no normal abilities, no weapon passives) They had to think of a detriment that would make people consider whether or not to be it, this is one of those options. Again, I am in the boat for having it being changed to 0/5/10/15, that way in your example as a healer, if you wanted to be a vampire you could play at stage 1 and not have a cost detriment, but also not having access to the passives.
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VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭skypantherb14_ESO wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »I suspect they designed it so you are incentivized to play as a vampire, similar to how Skyrim's vampire lord form worked or to ESO's werewolf. You aren't locked into the vampire skills, but its harder to use your non-vamp skills.
Now, sure, that's going to make vampire less desirable to players who care about the meta, but it's an interesting design choice nonetheless.
I agree if they made the Vampire damage actually on par with other damage abilities.... if it became its own unique DPS Class, etc, then these changes would make sense...
The best comparison is werewolf, which is its own "Class", effectively. So the real question would be whether vampire+option to use skills is equivalent in effectiveness to werewolf. It certainly is more flexible, able fill any role in group content, unlike werewolf.
I suspect ZOS didn't want a repeat of what we've had for years - players just adding vamp on top of their current build with few downsides. At the same time, they seem to want to keep the current ability to use your other abilities, as opposed to making vamp a full transformation, which helps keep it distinct from werewolf mechanics.1 -
Finedaible✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭My problem is that, up until this rework, vampirism has always been a complementary skill line to players' builds. It was optional, but it was effective enough that it could benefit your stamina or magicka build in some small way. What they have done here with this hefty skill cost penalty is make Vampirism more of a self-contained, roleplaying skill-line, just like werewolves. In a way it's more of the generic standardization we've been seeing, just variations of the same formula. By "Self-contained" I mean that the cost increase no longer complement creative builds anymore, and only benefit the vampire role-play.3 -
Finedaible wrote: »My problem is that, up until this rework, vampirism has always been a complementary skill line to players' builds. It was optional, but it was effective enough that it could benefit your stamina or magicka build in some small way. What they have done here with this hefty skill cost penalty is make Vampirism more of a self-contained, roleplaying skill-line, just like werewolves. In a way it's more of the generic standardization we've been seeing, just variations of the same formula. By "Self-contained" I mean that the cost increase no longer complement creative builds anymore, and only benefit the vampire role-play.
As I suggested in the feedback thread, if they intend to have this be a synergistic template, it fails at that... I would never want to Feed on my Necro Healer... 20% Cost is too much, and there is no reason outside of RP that I would keep this skill line. And so status quo (no Feeding) remains.
If they intend to make this skill line its own DPS spec, it is underwhelming.
If they intend for less people to play Vampires overall, they succeeded at that... (but making the game less fun because Vampires were popular seems like a decision made by committee, in a meeting. It just means some people will also eventually stop playing altogether with these kinds of arbitrary play style changes).
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FakeFox✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I really like the 200 M/s mistform, not sure what you are on about.
EU/PC (GER) - Healermain since 2014 - 50305 Achievement Points - Youtube (PvE Healing Guides, Builds & Gameplay)1 -
TheSeraphim✭✭✭The only use I see for Stage 4 is Health stacking Tank meme *** with drain, unfortunately they have no HP scaling damage abilities like Warden, so you will just be a blob of health draining bosses with 2-5k dps.2 -
Michaelkeir✭✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »I suspect they designed it so you are incentivized to play as a vampire, similar to how Skyrim's vampire lord form worked or to ESO's werewolf. You aren't locked into the vampire skills, but its harder to use your non-vamp skills.
Now, sure, that's going to make vampire less desirable to players who care about the meta, but it's an interesting design choice nonetheless.
I never thought about it like that but that makes so much sense. Just like the Werewolf is set up, if you transform you can't use your class abilities and stuck using the Werewolf skills. You can fix that by simply turning back into your normal form and use your class abilities. Vampire is set up the same but slightly different. You are not locked into using your vampire skills but you are heavily punished for trying to use none vampire abilities. Which is to encourage you to use your vampire skills. Simply don't feed and you can get back to using your regular skills like normal.
Only thing I would change is that you deal increased damage using vampire abilities while in your scion form. As it is not it's simply a stat increase and nothing more.0
