Vampire Debuffs Are WAY Too Heavy Handed

Tyrobag · April 2020

The cost increase in particular is just insane, especially considering that it's doing the exact opposite of what it does on live. This makes no sense for the vampire power fantasy either, vampires are supposed to be skilled with magic, but you're making it harder for them to cast spells. This needs to not apply to ultimates, and cap at 15% max (0%/5%/10%/15%).

The 100% health regen debuff, while not as bad as the cost increase, is also too much. It needs to cap a 75% (0%/25%/50%/75%).

Notice a trend here, stage 1 should have few to no debuffs (besides weakness to fire) so you can bring yourself down to stage 1 for situations where you need to be almost mortal (also so RPers can still be allowed to be vampires without being excessively punished for it). Likewise stage 1 should get no vampire skill cost reduction. This way you get to make a choice, either embrace your vampirisum and become more powerful, at a cost. Or don't feed and keep more of your mortality, without shooting yourself in the foot.

Blood frenzy is unusable for anyone without huge constant self heals. Templar will likely be able to run this at close to 100% up time, while necromancers will be unable to use it at all. This needs to reduce all healing received by 50% instead, reduce the cost, and probably lower the amount of spell damage added to even it out of course. As is it will be an overbuff to high self heal classes, while providing nothing to those without strong heal-as-you-go mechanics. Not to mention the frustration that the current state of the ability will bring to healers, with people completely blocking out their heals while massively damaging themselves. If I were to rework this ability myself I'd put it around 50% reduction to all incoming heals, 200 spell damage, 500 health cost per second, and add maj prophecy while slotted to make up for reducing the spell damage so much. That may not be how ZoS would do it, but either way it needs to be done better than it is now

And as a side note, using vampire feeding is way too difficult if you also have the blade of woe passive. We need a way to toggle BoW off so its not getting in the way.

I realize that they intended to emphasize the "blessing and a curse" mentality, but the curse vs. blessing ratio is just too far off.

With the current state of vampire on the PTS, I won't be running it next patch. And its not from some "power fantasy" based decision because its a "blessing and a curse", its because it does nothing but heavily debuff me.

TheInfernalRage · April 2020

I don't have any reason to go beyond Stage 1.

Paradisius · April 2020

I like your ideas, I think an ability cost scaling such as that would be a good middle ground for what the players are having issues with, and the direction the devs wanted to take vampirism. However the buff skill is rather easy to uphold, surprisingly so, at stage 4 as a magicka necro, I was using simmering frenzy (the morph that increases cost) and my spirit guardian kept me up entirely for it. Of course this was for pve, I cannot recommend this morph in cyrodiil, id say the other morph that heals you for 33% of the health lost when you toggle it off would be a better choice. And I agree 100% with the mix of feed and blade of woe, I wish it was just on a separate keybind.

cabgold · April 2020

Yeah, I was hoping for more of a complete self-contained vampire build vs a few highly situational skills that have such horrible downsides that it doesn't make it worth it. I will be curing vampirism from all my characters if this goes live. Such a disappointment. Vampire has such potential and this rework seems wasted. I would rather you pull the rework and try again vs put this live and make minor tweaks over time. I am curious, do others think this reword is awesome or just meh to bad?

Dracane · April 2020

Even 15% is way too much. I would say 10% maximum if at all.
I would prefer some other debuff. Because a pure vampire build is not really working and not effective.
I am a bit underwhelmed by vampire now. I had expected a bit more potency for these hefty debuffs.

kalunte · April 2020

did anyone tested if the blood frenzy goes through shields? in pvp this skill could put healer and offhealer builds severly on top of any other with a simple +660WD/SP (+10%/20%/30% from major/minor sorcery/brutality which is HUGE) with barely no cost since some build have constant self-over-healings.

i'm thinking of some sorcs i know who will just blow anyone if they turn into vamp stage 1, slot this skill and then leave us down to cry xD

Vevvev · April 2020

I theorized this would happen with what we saw on the pre-pts. With these current changes people who play vampire would stay at stage 1 since the sneak speed passive is decoupled from stage 4 like it is on live. The only scenario I see people feeding is to get to stage 3 for the passive damage reduction, but stage 4 is just way too detrimental for the invisibility while sprinting to be very helpful.

This combination creates the exact opposite scenario ZOS was trying to avoid with these changes. Very few people will feed and It'll make them more powerful than someone who does. Stage 4 having -100% health regeneration already is causing problems in the most hilarious of ways. Like when you fall off a cliff now you must heal yourself which is very inconvenient.

Dracane · April 2020

kalunte wrote: »

did anyone tested if the blood frenzy goes through shields? in pvp this skill could put healer and offhealer builds severly on top of any other with a simple +660WD/SP (+10%/20%/30% from major/minor sorcery/brutality which is HUGE) with barely no cost since some build have constant self-over-healings.

i'm thinking of some sorcs i know who will just blow anyone if they turn into vamp stage 1, slot this skill and then leave us down to cry xD

Blood Frenzy is self health removal. It does ignore damage reduction and shields. It always drains your health.

The morph you are talking about is easy to maintain. But the other morph is very hard to maintain in pvp at least. Even my 40k regeneration tooltip is not enough.

The other morph is certainly easy, but also not all that rewarding since you loose 1 slot. And at stage 1, even the cost of this morph will be significant enough in pvp.

kalunte · April 2020

i wasnt aiming for a particular morph sorry, i think the morph that increase wont be healthy and cost way too much anyway (and be deadly OP if some build manage to handle it).

the morph that restores life on the other hand stacks infinit-ly, this mean, with a tanky enough build you'll have a full life healing on top of the huge bonus for emergencies (i've had a 75.000 heal earlier today since it also stacks out of combat... .)

some duration should be added to it. the simple toggle "on/off" while goodlooking could also lead to completely broken situations... so i guess 20s max duration should be enugh on top of the possibility to toggle it "on/off". this would lead to some 6k non-crit heal in pvp at 20s and vamp stage 1.

the duration could increase with higher vamp stages too, to keep high heal return, less refresh needed...

Mortiis13 · April 2020

Debuffs are to high, but as a developer it makes sense. Everyone will be happy then u go from 5/10/15/20 cost increase to 3/6/9/15. Vise versa isn't a smart choice

JinMori · April 2020

Right now vampire is for glorified roleplaying.

TX12001rwb17_ESO · April 2020

Feeding is just too hard now in general, before you could cloak or pop an invisibility potion and it would let you feed but now the conditions are the same as the Blade of Woe so you cannot feed on anyone who knows your there, which means you cannot bite other players.

Alucardo · April 2020

5.2k to cast steadfast ward... on a Breton in light armor. That's nuts man.

Finedaible · April 2020

Phase 1: Introduce skill line unlocks for $$$.

Phase 2: Nerf Werewolf to oblivion.

Phase 3: Over-hype upcoming Vampire rework. Most players cure mangy mutt syndrome and turn to Vampirism.

Phase 4: Nerf vampire and buff Werewolf to godhood.

Phase 5: ???

Phase 6: PROFIT!!!

Bonus: Repeat ad nauseam

Vercingetorix · April 2020

Traditional magicka dps setups will not work with Vampire and they are not meant to. Vampire’s Stage 4 is meant to give magicka-based tanks a dps option much like how WW gives stamina-based tanks a dps option. Abilities like Blood Frenzy are for tanks, not squishy dps.

If you don’t like it, cure yourself. If you want the sneak bonuses, sets like Shadow Dancer, Darloc Brae, and Night’s Silence can assist. Vampire is a choice with a cost - it’s not for everyone anymore.

Vevvev · April 2020

Vercingetorix wrote: »

Traditional magicka dps setups will not work with Vampire and they are not meant to. Vampire’s Stage 4 is meant to give magicka-based tanks a dps option much like how WW gives stamina-based tanks a dps option. Abilities like Blood Frenzy are for tanks, not squishy dps.

If you don’t like it, cure yourself. If you want the sneak bonuses, sets like Shadow Dancer, Darloc Brae, and Night’s Silence can assist. Vampire is a choice with a cost - it’s not for everyone anymore.

You do understand stage 4 doesn't give you a DPS option, right? Only stage 2 does since it gives you that boost in damage when you leave mist form, invisibility, and sneak. Stage 3 gives you the tanking passive that makes it harder for you to die, and Stage 4 gives you the Unnatural Movement passive that lets you turn invisible after running for 3 seconds.

You gain access to all the vampire abilities for just being one which means you can just stay at Stage 1-2 for this damage.

Vercingetorix · April 2020

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Feeding is just too hard now in general, before you could cloak or pop an invisibility potion and it would let you feed but now the conditions are the same as the Blade of Woe so you cannot feed on anyone who knows your there, which means you cannot bite other players.

Feeding in the open public has risks, but there are other ways to change your vampire stage. Mara drinks work differently and there are 2 new furnishings: a fountain that lets you manually downgrade your stage and a test dummy that also functions as a reuseable thrall to feed on, all from the comfort of your home.

Vercingetorix · April 2020

Vevvev wrote: »

Vercingetorix wrote: »

Traditional magicka dps setups will not work with Vampire and they are not meant to. Vampire’s Stage 4 is meant to give magicka-based tanks a dps option much like how WW gives stamina-based tanks a dps option. Abilities like Blood Frenzy are for tanks, not squishy dps.

If you don’t like it, cure yourself. If you want the sneak bonuses, sets like Shadow Dancer, Darloc Brae, and Night’s Silence can assist. Vampire is a choice with a cost - it’s not for everyone anymore.

You do understand stage 4 doesn't give you a DPS option, right? Only stage 2 does since it gives you that boost in damage when you leave mist form, invisibility, and sneak. Stage 3 gives you the tanking passive that makes it harder for you to die, and Stage 4 gives you the Unnatural Movement passive that lets you turn invisible after running for 3 seconds.

You gain access to all the vampire abilities for just being one which means you can just stay at Stage 1-2 for this damage.

Wrong, stage 4 IS a dps option for tanks by drastically lowering vampire costs for a tank despite being in heavy armor. Blood Frenzy can be easily maintained with a tanky hp bar and the damage increase brings tank SD closer to a traditional dps SD value. I have found that a heavy attack build focusing on channels and ultimate regeneration works really well in VMA.

Vevvev · April 2020

Vercingetorix wrote: »

Wrong, stage 4 IS a dps option for tanks by drastically lowering vampire costs for a tank despite being in heavy armor. Blood Frenzy can be easily maintained with a tanky hp bar and the damage increase brings tank SD closer to a traditional dps SD value. I have found that a heavy attack build focusing on channels and ultimate regeneration works really well in VMA.

I'm thinking in terms of PVP though. Good luck tanking with a ability biting away at your health, 0 health regeneration, all your other skills costing 20% more, and your vampire drain getting you bashed in the face. Channels can be interrupted quite easily at close range and ranged abilities like Crushing Shock are going to make vampiric drain less appetizing to use.

Edit:
Oh also not to mention the extra flame damage you'll be taking, the Fighter's guild abilities going to wreck your day, and the fact healing is reduced by 50%. The devs are making that 60% so good luck keeping Blood Frenzy up.

wheem_ESO · April 2020

Vercingetorix wrote: »

Traditional magicka dps setups will not work with Vampire and they are not meant to. Vampire’s Stage 4 is meant to give magicka-based tanks a dps option much like how WW gives stamina-based tanks a dps option. Abilities like Blood Frenzy are for tanks, not squishy dps.

If you don’t like it, cure yourself. If you want the sneak bonuses, sets like Shadow Dancer, Darloc Brae, and Night’s Silence can assist. Vampire is a choice with a cost - it’s not for everyone anymore.

PvP is a thing, and Vampire has been meaningful for that, to varying degrees, for a very long time. It doesn't need to be turned into some RP-only and/or PvE-only nonsense.

Vercingetorix · April 2020

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Vercingetorix wrote: »

Traditional magicka dps setups will not work with Vampire and they are not meant to. Vampire’s Stage 4 is meant to give magicka-based tanks a dps option much like how WW gives stamina-based tanks a dps option. Abilities like Blood Frenzy are for tanks, not squishy dps.

If you don’t like it, cure yourself. If you want the sneak bonuses, sets like Shadow Dancer, Darloc Brae, and Night’s Silence can assist. Vampire is a choice with a cost - it’s not for everyone anymore.

PvP is a thing, and Vampire has been meaningful for that, to varying degrees, for a very long time. It doesn't need to be turned into some RP-only and/or PvE-only nonsense.

Hate to break it to you but PvP in ESO has always been side-dish content. PvE IS the game. Despite that, vampire changes are good for the game as people before weren’t actually doing anything as vampires other than having a few passives. You can still access those effects via gear sets like Night Silence. You have options - your unwillingness to use those options doesn’t constitute a need on ZoS’ part to make changes to the game.

Vevvev · April 2020

Vercingetorix wrote: »

Hate to break it to you but PvP in ESO has always been side-dish content. PvE IS the game. Despite that, vampire changes are good for the game as people before weren’t actually doing anything as vampires other than having a few passives. You can still access those effects via gear sets like Night Silence. You have options - your unwillingness to use those options doesn’t constitute a need on ZoS’ part to make changes to the game.

The issue with what you have presented is the vampire sneak buff is available regardless of what stage you're at. You'll always enter sneak 25-50% faster and ignore the sneak penalty as a vampire. If that's what we are going for we can just stay at stage 1, never feed, get access to all the active powers, and never bother with anything else.

Why bother equipping Night's Silence at that point when we can equip a better set and gain a passive that's better? Sure I might have some minor debuffs but now I have a powerful AOE stun, and if I have the health according to you, blood frenzy. What's the point of feeding if its only going to hurt the vampire in question?

wheem_ESO · April 2020

Vercingetorix wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Vercingetorix wrote: »

Traditional magicka dps setups will not work with Vampire and they are not meant to. Vampire’s Stage 4 is meant to give magicka-based tanks a dps option much like how WW gives stamina-based tanks a dps option. Abilities like Blood Frenzy are for tanks, not squishy dps.

If you don’t like it, cure yourself. If you want the sneak bonuses, sets like Shadow Dancer, Darloc Brae, and Night’s Silence can assist. Vampire is a choice with a cost - it’s not for everyone anymore.

PvP is a thing, and Vampire has been meaningful for that, to varying degrees, for a very long time. It doesn't need to be turned into some RP-only and/or PvE-only nonsense.

Hate to break it to you but PvP in ESO has always been side-dish content. PvE IS the game. Despite that, vampire changes are good for the game as people before weren’t actually doing anything as vampires other than having a few passives. You can still access those effects via gear sets like Night Silence. You have options - your unwillingness to use those options doesn’t constitute a need on ZoS’ part to make changes to the game.

Cyrodiil frequently has terrible performance and is nearly as boring as PvE, but it has still been a major selling point for the entirety of the game's life. Same for Battlegrounds with the Morrowind Chapter (and now available to everyone), which is the only reason I came back to the game when it went into early access.

And no, not everyone used Vampire strictly for the passives. Maybe some PvE tanks or whatever did, but for some of us, it was our best (or only) source of PvP-mobility and/or crowd control, and the ultimate could be kinda decent at times. The latest iteration of Race Against Time + the inability to keep Mist Form's Major Expedition if you block or swap canceled it dealt a blow to Vampirism for PvP, as did the recent gutting of Vamp Drain. Many of us were hoping that this overhaul would bring it back into relevancy to help cover certain class-deficiencies, especially considering how vital CC is to actually being able to kill good players.

Dedicating the entire skill line, specific graphics and animations, etc...to something that's will only see occasional use by PvE tanks in certain situations seems like a giant waste, and I don't find your argument to be very convincing.

PS
It's not my "unwillingness" to use Night's Silence that's a problem. Instead, the problem is that Night's Silence is a trash set that my Magicka Necromancer would never be caught dead in. Cause if I did use it, that's exactly what would happen. I would be dead. Frequently. Without being useful during the time period between deaths.

ne.ga.kurai_ESO · April 2020

Vevvev wrote: »

...Sure I might have some minor debuffs but now I have a powerful AOE stun...

5% cost is huge in noCP. [snip]

[edited for bashing]

xaraan · April 2020

They do seem a bit too strong.

The vampire skill is neat but not so awesome that I'd love to be locked into only using those abilities. And part of the fun, especially on some classes like NB and Necro is the thematic mixing of vampire and class abilities that seem to go together.

This takes that fun away.
I'm not even a big vampire player person, just have one more for the sake of having one, I guess for RPishness than anything else. I was excited about Vampire meaning something more and feeling more like I was playing a Vampire and not just getting a couple neat passives, but now I'm not looking forward to dealing with being a vampire lol. Guess I'll keep my vamp as a vamp for that same RPishness, but probably leave him at level one most all the time.

In the end, as much as I want to see being a Vampire a more dedicated thing, I liked the feeling that I'd be a Vampire Nightblade or Vampire Sorc, or Vampire Necro (or whatever class someone wants to mix it with). And with such a heavy handed debuff to the class skills, it feels more like Vampire OR the class, not vampire AND the class.

kypranb14_ESO · April 2020

I actually like the 100% less Health Regen, it allows me to have 100% crit chance with the new Vampire melee spammable, all the time. lol

Step 1- Lower your health.
Step 2- Profit. As your health never regens, you will always crit while under 50% health.

Easily hitting over 20k constantly in a full regen setup. I can only imagine what it will be doing on a damage build.