Nerf != Balance

Tethalion · April 2020

Nerfs are synonymous with MMOs, true, but it doesn't necessarily mean it's always an effective balancing method.

Balancing is the smoothing of over/under/unexpected performance regarding newly introduced element into an, otherwise, stable environment. However, impactful changes (both nerfs and buffs) of long-standing elements will have the opposite effect, especially during a time when many new elements are introduced.

Using the proposed changes to the Bloodspawn Monster-set as an example, this item-set has been a well accepted, functioning element in the game for a long time. Thus, if changes must be made (and I don't believe it should), it shouldn't be at a time when an entire chapter of "new" is about to be introduced. To gauge the added-value of change to a well-established element, that change should be isolated for a time when performance and feedback can be independent. Furthermore, ZoS will receive much more effective feedback from the player-base if testers can focus on new things, rather than the upheaval caused by nerfs and buffs.

I strongly recommend holding off on some of the changes to existing assets and mechanics, and I believe the game will experience much smoother release cycles if it differentiated between new element balancing and existing performance adjustments.

Firstmep · April 2020

Tethalion wrote: »

Nerfs are synonymous with MMOs, true, but it doesn't necessarily mean it's always an effective balancing method.

Balancing is the smoothing of over/under/unexpected performance regarding newly introduced element into an, otherwise, stable environment. However, impactful changes (both nerfs and buffs) of long-standing elements will have the opposite effect, especially during a time when many new elements are introduced.

Using the proposed changes to the Bloodspawn Monster-set as an example, this item-set has been a well accepted, functioning element in the game for a long time. Thus, if changes must be made (and I don't believe it should), it shouldn't be at a time when an entire chapter of "new" is about to be introduced. To gauge the added-value of change to a well-established element, that change should be isolated for a time when performance and feedback can be independent. Furthermore, ZoS will receive much more effective feedback from the player-base if testers can focus on new things, rather than the upheaval caused by nerfs and buffs.

I strongly recommend holding off on some of the changes to existing assets and mechanics, and I believe the game will experience much smoother release cycles if it differentiated between new element balancing and existing performance adjustments.

Actually when it comes to balance all factors should be considered, as opposed to just one thing or the other in isolation.

Bloodspawn is a great set in isolation, but when you start comparing to other choices(in pvp ofc), there really arent very many alternatives, if any.
Most damage procsets have some kind of delay, ulitity based ones usually too gimmicky etc.

Bloodspawn on live, basically passively rewards you for taking damage , one of the easiest proc conditions to meet.

For the last few years now, at least for stamina, when making a build and looking at what monster set to run, i always went back to BS, its no fuss, easy proc, great value, dont have to think about it, its just there.

The nerf hurts, sure, but it may force us to consider other options, which is imho a good thing.

TLDR: When looking at BS nerf, you have consider all the other monster sets, and then you will realise it was well deserved, maybe to not this extent, though.

Still quite a few weeks of PTS to go, so it might some of its power back, we will see, too early to tell.

Blynjubitr · April 2020

ZOS is not good using small numbers for balancing. SO if something is too powerful that thing literally gets removed from game by getting nerfed into oblivion, something too weak ? wait few patches it will be BiS.

Urzigurumash · April 2020

You make good points. Nerfs and balance seem largely inextricable to me. As for Bloodspawn, perhaps this point has been made today, and I could be wrong about all this, but from my memory, the sequence of nerfs/balances which culminated in the nerf to Bloodspawn was that Damage Shields began to be affected by Resistances - a change ostensibly made to promote the use of damage shields by PvE tanks - which compelled PvP Mag to start using the Protective Trait on jewels. Protective was, in every calculable way, unbalanced, so when it was reduced to a value in line with other jewelry traits, PvP Mag players started using Bloodspawn. It was one thing that for years PvP Stam were mostly in Bloodspawn or Troll King, but when Bloodspawn became the dominant set for both Mag and Stam, it was finally nerfed.

I still have no informed opinion on whether Damage Shields being affected by Resistances has led to overall balance. Class balance is probably at its best in years for PvP, in my experience, but now nearly every defensive monster set is likely to end up in the same gutter Protective is now in.

From my point of view, for some encouragement to those mourning the loss of Bloodspawn, I used Troll King almost exclusively for years, enduring the derision of using a "carry set", but when the HoT was removed from Forward Momentum, and TK thus lost its most efficient and convenient proc, I turned to damage monster sets, and my gameplay has continually improved. In this way, the nerf to Forward Momentum raised the ceiling of my gameplay, although quite indirectly, and I suspect I was not the only StamDK to experience this very thing, indirectly leading to the elevation of StamDK as an offfensive force in PvP, and to better class balance.

Ectheliontnacil · April 2020

Firstmep wrote: »

Tethalion wrote: »

Nerfs are synonymous with MMOs, true, but it doesn't necessarily mean it's always an effective balancing method.

Balancing is the smoothing of over/under/unexpected performance regarding newly introduced element into an, otherwise, stable environment. However, impactful changes (both nerfs and buffs) of long-standing elements will have the opposite effect, especially during a time when many new elements are introduced.

Using the proposed changes to the Bloodspawn Monster-set as an example, this item-set has been a well accepted, functioning element in the game for a long time. Thus, if changes must be made (and I don't believe it should), it shouldn't be at a time when an entire chapter of "new" is about to be introduced. To gauge the added-value of change to a well-established element, that change should be isolated for a time when performance and feedback can be independent. Furthermore, ZoS will receive much more effective feedback from the player-base if testers can focus on new things, rather than the upheaval caused by nerfs and buffs.

I strongly recommend holding off on some of the changes to existing assets and mechanics, and I believe the game will experience much smoother release cycles if it differentiated between new element balancing and existing performance adjustments.

Actually when it comes to balance all factors should be considered, as opposed to just one thing or the other in isolation.

Bloodspawn is a great set in isolation, but when you start comparing to other choices(in pvp ofc), there really arent very many alternatives, if any.
Most damage procsets have some kind of delay, ulitity based ones usually too gimmicky etc.

Bloodspawn on live, basically passively rewards you for taking damage , one of the easiest proc conditions to meet.

For the last few years now, at least for stamina, when making a build and looking at what monster set to run, i always went back to BS, its no fuss, easy proc, great value, dont have to think about it, its just there.

The nerf hurts, sure, but it may force us to consider other options, which is imho a good thing.

TLDR: When looking at BS nerf, you have consider all the other monster sets, and then you will realise it was well deserved, maybe to not this extent, though.

Still quite a few weeks of PTS to go, so it might some of its power back, we will see, too early to tell.

I don't think the problem is bloodspawn being overpowered. It's just that most other monster sets have a 2pc that's completely useless.

Selene's is easily dodgeable, veli never hits, only dk can really run skoria anymore since nb's aren't using reach & cripple anymore (and other classes can't effectively time their burst with the proc).
Trollking is really uncomfortable to proc (under 50% hp is dangerous), earthgore just for healers, etc.
Most of the other sets are so ridiculously bad they aren't even worth mentioning.

The only things that see any use really are BS, engine (personally really dislike rng sustain but some sorcs use it) and zaan.
Not because they are overpowered, simply because the 2pc actually adds some value to your build.
Now all of them were nerfed, probs zaan still ok but less burst.
It will most likely be better to just run 1pc domihaus and a mythic ring or something at this point.