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The increase cost of non vampire abilities is too extreme
Shadowasrial
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At stage 3 and 4 the 15-20 % increase to non vampire abilities is way too extreme. Let’s forget about the fact that a great deal of the population runs new moon which also increases by 5% making at stage 3 your at 20% and stage 4 your at 25%. Vampires on live servers have increased stam and mag recovery this has been stripped by the new vampire and now you want to increase the cost of non vampire abilities? The new vampire abilities aren’t that powerful that you are able to run only vampire abilities for pvp. As a stamblade my cloak already costs 3900 mag and if this new change goes live my cloak will cost 4600. That makes it so you can only use cloak basicly twice before your out of stamina. Can we please remove the cost of non vamp abilities if you are going to further limit our sustain?
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MincVinyl✭✭✭✭✭Ever wonder why they just introduced tri-cost reduction glyphs? If you look at how the math works with cost reductions you wont be disappointed.2 -
Cellentel✭✭✭✭Note that the cost increase applies to ultimates as well.
At the very least, we should be able to remove the cost increase by going to vamp stage 1, like we can the vampire penalties on live today.3 -
llBlack_Heartll✭✭✭✭15-20% is massive.
I can imagine it would be enough to deter people to not run as a Vamp, on top of that limited health regen and extra fire damage, way too many cons.8 -
MartiniDaniels✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Sit in stage 1 without undeath, what's the problem. It is long overdue to make vampire to have downsides other then meeting with magDK (and few fire bosses in PVE).6 -
llBlack_Heartll✭✭✭✭MartiniDaniels wrote: »Sit in stage 1 without undeath, what's the problem. It is long overdue to make vampire to have downsides other then meeting with magDK (and few fire bosses in PVE).
It already had down sides.5 -
Kurat✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭So basically we have to choose, being a vamp and using only vamp skills at max stage or dont be vamp at all. And vamp skills alone are not even near as strong as other skills, so being vamp is just for RP.
If you think you can stay at stage 1 then you just gimping yourself and at higher stages you can't sustain, so what's the point.8 -
Shadowasrial✭✭✭✭✭
✭I don’t feel forced to Play vampire but I don’t want to be forced to use all their abilities in pvp. I like my class abilities and that much increase cost makes using your class abilities very difficult4 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MartiniDaniels wrote: »Sit in stage 1 without undeath, what's the problem. It is long overdue to make vampire to have downsides other then meeting with magDK (and few fire bosses in PVE).
There are some pretty serious fire damage bosses in PVE. vAS and vHoF come to mind as the fire damage in both of those fights cover a huge area. Get out and experience more trials.5 -
Cuddler✭✭✭You do not have to be at stage 3 or 4. You can use all active vampire abilities at stage 1.
3 and 4 are intended for players who use active abilities a lot. Their overall magicka drain should not increase as they would benefit substantially from the -30%/-40% vampire cost reduction.2 -
MartiniDaniels✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MartiniDaniels wrote: »Sit in stage 1 without undeath, what's the problem. It is long overdue to make vampire to have downsides other then meeting with magDK (and few fire bosses in PVE).
There are some pretty serious fire damage bosses in PVE. vAS and vHoF come to mind as the fire damage in both of those fights cover a huge area. Get out and experience more trials.
I wrote "few fire bosses in PVE" - how that is different from what you wrote?llBlack_Heartll wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »Sit in stage 1 without undeath, what's the problem. It is long overdue to make vampire to have downsides other then meeting with magDK (and few fire bosses in PVE).
It already had down sides.
All my PVP toons are vampires. Notable downside is meeting with good magDK, what others? Sieges?3 -
Akinos✭✭✭✭✭
✭MartiniDaniels wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »Sit in stage 1 without undeath, what's the problem. It is long overdue to make vampire to have downsides other then meeting with magDK (and few fire bosses in PVE).
There are some pretty serious fire damage bosses in PVE. vAS and vHoF come to mind as the fire damage in both of those fights cover a huge area. Get out and experience more trials.
I wrote "few fire bosses in PVE" - how that is different from what you wrote?llBlack_Heartll wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »Sit in stage 1 without undeath, what's the problem. It is long overdue to make vampire to have downsides other then meeting with magDK (and few fire bosses in PVE).
It already had down sides.
All my PVP toons are vampires. Notable downside is meeting with good magDK, what others? Sieges?
Dawnbreaker? Silver shards?(Yes shards can do damage.)PC NA | @AkinosPvP 1vX/Small Scaler, Raid Leader, Youtuber and Twitch.tv Streamer.MAGICKA MELEE IS LIFE!Magplar, MagDK, Magden, Magblade, Magsorc & Magcro PvP/Build videos & moretwitch.tv/akinospvp7 -
Kurat✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭You do not have to be at stage 3 or 4. You can use all active vampire abilities at stage 1.
3 and 4 are intended for players who use active abilities a lot. Their overall magicka drain should not increase as they would benefit substantially from the -30%/-40% vampire cost reduction.
If you stay at stage 1, you not gonna get the passives, but you will get cost increase for other abilities. So you are gimping yourself.
I see only 2 options here. Dont be vamp at all and use your class abilities or be vamp and be at stage 4 and use only vamp abilities. So vamp is for RP now.7 -
MartiniDaniels✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MartiniDaniels wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »Sit in stage 1 without undeath, what's the problem. It is long overdue to make vampire to have downsides other then meeting with magDK (and few fire bosses in PVE).
There are some pretty serious fire damage bosses in PVE. vAS and vHoF come to mind as the fire damage in both of those fights cover a huge area. Get out and experience more trials.
I wrote "few fire bosses in PVE" - how that is different from what you wrote?llBlack_Heartll wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »Sit in stage 1 without undeath, what's the problem. It is long overdue to make vampire to have downsides other then meeting with magDK (and few fire bosses in PVE).
It already had down sides.
All my PVP toons are vampires. Notable downside is meeting with good magDK, what others? Sieges?
Dawnbreaker? Silver shards?(Yes shards can do damage.)
If you calculate bonus damage from dawnbreaker and then compare it to damage of entire burst and then account undeath, you'll see that undeath fully compensates for that. Onslaught is way more deadly then dawnbreaker, even against vampire.1 -
Cuddler✭✭✭If you stay at stage 1, you not gonna get the passives, but you will get cost increase for other abilities. So you are gimping yourself.
I see only 2 options here. Dont be vamp at all and use your class abilities or be vamp and be at stage 4 and use only vamp abilities. So vamp is for RP now.
Stage 3 and 4 passives are extremely powerful and should come with big downsides.
Stage 1 gives you full access to all vamp abilities for a measly +5% to non-vamp costs. A fair price to pay.
The changes are good. Vampire is finally becoming a choice.
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Akinos✭✭✭✭✭
✭MartiniDaniels wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »Sit in stage 1 without undeath, what's the problem. It is long overdue to make vampire to have downsides other then meeting with magDK (and few fire bosses in PVE).
There are some pretty serious fire damage bosses in PVE. vAS and vHoF come to mind as the fire damage in both of those fights cover a huge area. Get out and experience more trials.
I wrote "few fire bosses in PVE" - how that is different from what you wrote?llBlack_Heartll wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »Sit in stage 1 without undeath, what's the problem. It is long overdue to make vampire to have downsides other then meeting with magDK (and few fire bosses in PVE).
It already had down sides.
All my PVP toons are vampires. Notable downside is meeting with good magDK, what others? Sieges?
Dawnbreaker? Silver shards?(Yes shards can do damage.)
If you calculate bonus damage from dawnbreaker and then compare it to damage of entire burst and then account undeath, you'll see that undeath fully compensates for that. Onslaught is way more deadly then dawnbreaker, even against vampire.
No it's not. You can never tell when the dawnbreaker is coming. However onslaught is useless if it hits you and they can't follow up. Avoiding their follow up damage after onslaught is easy to do because they only get 5 seconds to do damage. Dawnbreaker happens all at once and is a bigger and longer aoe radius also. That 20% bonus damage is no joke either, i've been hit for 7k-9k+ dawnbreakers while having 23-30%+ damage mitigation.
Back on topic, the cost increase should be no more then 5 or 6% on regular skills. I don't see very many people going vamp if it stays at 20%. Besides the dozens of werewolf and vampire RP guilds.Edited by Akinos on April 21, 2020 2:50AMPC NA | @AkinosPvP 1vX/Small Scaler, Raid Leader, Youtuber and Twitch.tv Streamer.MAGICKA MELEE IS LIFE!Magplar, MagDK, Magden, Magblade, Magsorc & Magcro PvP/Build videos & moretwitch.tv/akinospvp1 -
Akinos✭✭✭✭✭
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Yeah you could use glpyhs to negate some of the cost, but then you lose damage also or whatever other glyph you could of put there instead of being forced to use reduction glpyhs.PC NA | @AkinosPvP 1vX/Small Scaler, Raid Leader, Youtuber and Twitch.tv Streamer.MAGICKA MELEE IS LIFE!Magplar, MagDK, Magden, Magblade, Magsorc & Magcro PvP/Build videos & moretwitch.tv/akinospvp3 -
Kurat✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭If you stay at stage 1, you not gonna get the passives, but you will get cost increase for other abilities. So you are gimping yourself.
I see only 2 options here. Dont be vamp at all and use your class abilities or be vamp and be at stage 4 and use only vamp abilities. So vamp is for RP now.
Stage 3 and 4 passives are extremely powerful and should come with big downsides.
Stage 1 gives you full access to all vamp abilities for a measly +5% to non-vamp costs. A fair price to pay.
The changes are good. Vampire is finally becoming a choice.
Lmao. Being a vamp was always a choice, an obvious one. Currently on live all my toons are vamps coz of the passives. If you're not then you're missing out. Next patch I'm gonna have to kiss them goodbye because of huge cost penalty to class abilities. We are basically forced to choose between sustain and vamp passives. And I personally cant sustain with 20% cost increase. Not without loosing dps anyway.4 -
Kurat✭✭✭✭✭
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Yeah you could use glpyhs to negate some of the cost, but then you lose damage also or whatever other glyph you could of put there instead of being forced to use reduction glpyhs.
Excactly.
Being a vamp = dps loss now
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MincVinyl✭✭✭✭✭
Yeah you could use glpyhs to negate some of the cost, but then you lose damage also or whatever other glyph you could of put there instead of being forced to use reduction glpyhs.
Right, but then ideally your vamp costs and normal costs would go down by alot. I have to continue testing when I have time, but I believe the tri reduction might work on the toggle health per sec cost for damage. How vamp is set up right now, going stage 4 is a large difference than stage 1. Which is nice in a way since your build can really dig in to be vamp focused. Not every build will/should be vamp 4, there should be a spread.0 -
MartiniDaniels✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MartiniDaniels wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »Sit in stage 1 without undeath, what's the problem. It is long overdue to make vampire to have downsides other then meeting with magDK (and few fire bosses in PVE).
There are some pretty serious fire damage bosses in PVE. vAS and vHoF come to mind as the fire damage in both of those fights cover a huge area. Get out and experience more trials.
I wrote "few fire bosses in PVE" - how that is different from what you wrote?llBlack_Heartll wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »Sit in stage 1 without undeath, what's the problem. It is long overdue to make vampire to have downsides other then meeting with magDK (and few fire bosses in PVE).
It already had down sides.
All my PVP toons are vampires. Notable downside is meeting with good magDK, what others? Sieges?
Dawnbreaker? Silver shards?(Yes shards can do damage.)
If you calculate bonus damage from dawnbreaker and then compare it to damage of entire burst and then account undeath, you'll see that undeath fully compensates for that. Onslaught is way more deadly then dawnbreaker, even against vampire.
No it's not. You can never tell when the dawnbreaker is coming. However onslaught is useless if it hits you and they can't follow up. Avoiding their follow up damage after onslaught is easy to do because they only get 5 seconds to do damage. Dawnbreaker happens all at once and is a bigger and longer aoe radius also. That 20% bonus damage is no joke either, i've been hit for 7k-9k+ dawnbreakers while having 23-30%+ damage mitigation.
Back on topic, the cost increase should be no more then 5 or 6% on regular skills. I don't see very many people going vamp if it stays at 20%. Besides the dozens of werewolf and vampire RP guilds.
Everybody's experience may vary. Onslaught burst can kill me in 2 seconds (something like blastbones-medheavy stun-onslaught-executioner), while dawnbreaker can kill me only if it will cause double unbreakable cc glitch (if used like streak timed with DBoS).0 -
Noxavian✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Shadowasrial wrote: »At stage 3 and 4 the 15-20 % increase to non vampire abilities is way too extreme. Let’s forget about the fact that a great deal of the population runs new moon which also increases by 5% making at stage 3 your at 20% and stage 4 your at 25%. Vampires on live servers have increased stam and mag recovery this has been stripped by the new vampire and now you want to increase the cost of non vampire abilities? The new vampire abilities aren’t that powerful that you are able to run only vampire abilities for pvp. As a stamblade my cloak already costs 3900 mag and if this new change goes live my cloak will cost 4600. That makes it so you can only use cloak basicly twice before your out of stamina. Can we please remove the cost of non vamp abilities if you are going to further limit our sustain?
If they remove the mega penalties behind vamp then I want the Perfect Scion morph to be changed as atm the only way anyone will ever take it over Bats is to get rid of the added ability cost0 -
katorga✭✭✭✭✭
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Yeah you could use glpyhs to negate some of the cost, but then you lose damage also or whatever other glyph you could of put there instead of being forced to use reduction glpyhs.
Excactly.
Being a vamp = dps loss now
No. The glyphs reduce health costs too. So you use the damage toggle for massive weapon/spell damage with the glyph offsetting the running health cost of the toggle.
But yeah the cost increases are so extreme they will probably doom the entire skill line to obscurity. Way to roll out the signature feature of a new chapter.Edited by katorga on April 21, 2020 3:21AM5 -
TheSeraphim✭✭✭Unless the Vampire skill damage numbers are tuned to comical levels to justify having 90% of your build be Vampire, stage 4 will be unusable for anything resembling "endgame" content. Congratulations you went from everyone going stage 4 vampire to nobody but overland casual players going stage 4.5 -
thankyourat✭✭✭✭✭
✭MartiniDaniels wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »Sit in stage 1 without undeath, what's the problem. It is long overdue to make vampire to have downsides other then meeting with magDK (and few fire bosses in PVE).
There are some pretty serious fire damage bosses in PVE. vAS and vHoF come to mind as the fire damage in both of those fights cover a huge area. Get out and experience more trials.
I wrote "few fire bosses in PVE" - how that is different from what you wrote?llBlack_Heartll wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »Sit in stage 1 without undeath, what's the problem. It is long overdue to make vampire to have downsides other then meeting with magDK (and few fire bosses in PVE).
It already had down sides.
All my PVP toons are vampires. Notable downside is meeting with good magDK, what others? Sieges?
I got rid of vampire after the damage shield nerf a few years ago. It’s not just mag DKs. Fire staff light attacks were hitting me with over 4K crits. Anyone using a flame staff was applying was too much pressure on me. If I was fighting multiple people with flame staffs I would almost never get a chance to go offensive. So I dropped vampire and instantly noticed a huge improvement to survivability. The loss of health regen is also a big downside in PvP. It did have its downsides.7 -
MincVinyl✭✭✭✭✭
Yeah you could use glpyhs to negate some of the cost, but then you lose damage also or whatever other glyph you could of put there instead of being forced to use reduction glpyhs.
Excactly.
Being a vamp = dps loss now
No. The glyphs reduce health costs too. So you use the damage toggle for massive weapon/spell damage with the glyph offsetting the running health cost of the toggle.
But yeah the cost increases are so extreme they will probably doom the entire skill line to obscurity. Way to roll out the signature feature of a new chapter.
This guy gets it. Now it is key to note that the cost reduction glyphs will help and hurt you efficiency wise. Now this should be tested with the new vamp cost increases, but how alot of cost % increases work is it takes the cost of the ability applied after the glyph is factored in. This means your vamp ability cost reduction would be less efficient, but your normal abilities would be more efficient. This means if you dont want to run a lot of vamp abilities, but be at a higher state this trick will help you offset those nonvamp ability costs.
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Paradisius✭✭✭✭I feel like the debuff is more or less in line with their original intentions. 20% is high yes, id say move it down to 15% at least, however their intent is to make it to where not everyone is running around stage 4 Vampire, on live server you can let it go to stage 4, forget about it, and just keep in mind not to get hit. Worse case scenario people drop to stage 3 because they still want undeath. Now its less of a mandatory part of a build in order to be meta, and another build option to utilize and work around. If they drop the ability cost too low and dont add any other detriments, then it goes full circle where everyone just stays at 4 without really considering the detriments, because they dont matter as much.0
