People shy away from vet content because of players

zantarizb14_ESO · April 2020

Just as a side note, I'm sometimes amused by the loudest of the elitist players are those who stand in the fire and expect to be healed through it. If they die, it's your fault and you don't belong.

I actually prefer normal mode anyway because there is allowance for players to make mistakes. If I'm the one who makes a mistake and doesn't move out of the danger zone fast enough and ends up having to have somebody rez me instead of doing their job, I don't have to worry that the imminent wipe is solely due to my death.

zantarizb14_ESO · April 2020

Anyway, I feel like it's worth saying that, despite the toxic players that are out there, I still love the game and they don't really bother me all that much (especially the elitist since I don't really do top tier content). I know how to use the /ignore feature and it's a good hammer for the whack a mole game.

Wlnamp · April 2020

Blynjubitr wrote: »

For a long time i was wondering why it is so rare that you actually see a let alone vet trial group in zone chat a vet dungeon group. And after having some conversation with some people who are over 810 CP and stilll haven't done many vet content, they always point out it is not because they are not interested in the stuff but they are not interested in people who are doing the stuff. [snip]

I have 2 dedicated PvE guilds rn and when i have low CP players in my group i always try to help them instead of instantly kicking them, same goes for high CP low dps or low exp. Because even if you cannot clear the contet you can help people see their limits and make them realize they can improve in some areas instead of pushing them away from it.

So please be helpfull not toxic. Otherwise we are doomed to play this game alone.

Edit: I should add this because a lot of people misunderstood my point, i am not saying run vet content with complete low CP group. But having few of them around and making them see for themselves they are not ready for the content doesn't really hurt the progress of the content(because usually they are dead most of the time and at the end of the run they understand if they are ready or not.). For example if i have few low cp players in my group, i always invite some guildies that i trust so we can compansate for them. If dps is so undoable you can politely point out to related parties they should work out o certain areas so they can run the place successfully. But i have seen some ugly conversations against new players that i would rather never see again, because it is disgusting.

[edited for baiting/bashing]

better to be evil and toxic. What is wrong with being bad?
Lying and misleading other people is good, why did you get the idea that this is bad?
You’re just misleading yourself that helping people is good, actually it’s not

zantarizb14_ESO · April 2020

Wlnamp wrote: »

better to be evil and toxic. What is wrong with being bad?
Lying and misleading other people is good, why did you get the idea that this is bad?
You’re just misleading yourself that helping people is good, actually it’s not

I don't think it's ALWAYS a good thing to be helpful. I once played another game with a friend of mine who was max level and me being a new player, he ran through the content and I couldn't even keep up with them to get a hit in. That is no fun at all. This was something pointed out by another person in this thread. You don't want to be so helpful as to ruin someones gaming experience. But it is good to generally be helpful when other players ask for help. It's a pay it forward type of thing.

newtinmpls · April 2020

zantarizb14_ESO wrote: »

I don't think it's ALWAYS a good thing to be helpful. I once played another game with a friend of mine who was max level and me being a new player, he ran through the content and I couldn't even keep up with them to get a hit in. That is no fun at all.

I would not call that "helpful" at all. I would call it being a jerk, but that's me.

pelle412 · April 2020

Ok, I have seen the issue OP brings up over and over, but mostly on the forums. The reality is, if you want to do veteran trials but are worried if you will be criticized, you need to take the initiative to evaluate yourself, seek out assistance, and build a network of friends. Nobody is going to come knock on your door and offer to carry you to the achievements you are interested in. It's on you to make it happen. There's a wide variety of personalities in ESO. Most (I say most but not all) play ESO for fun and that usually means completing content in a "reasonable" time. Having something take much longer than they expect can ruffle feathers. Everyone will face that one time or another, and it's on you (or anyone really) to take someone's "reaction" with a grain of salt, and do some self-reflection on ways to improve. Being passive aggressive and calling people toxic elitists are just as toxic.

EDIT: Most people are willing to offer advice and assistance if you show the initiative. That I am 100% sure of.

Tigerseye · April 2020

zantarizb14_ESO wrote: »

Just as a side note, I'm sometimes amused by the loudest of the elitist players are those who stand in the fire and expect to be healed through it. If they die, it's your fault and you don't belong.

I actually prefer normal mode anyway because there is allowance for players to make mistakes. If I'm the one who makes a mistake and doesn't move out of the danger zone fast enough and ends up having to have somebody rez me instead of doing their job, I don't have to worry that the imminent wipe is solely due to my death.

The problem is that normal mode, unless it's a harder dungeon, is often too easy, even if you prefer a bit of leeway.

Then you have vet mode, which is often (in the case of the harder dungeons) too hard for the average group that joins it.

So, you either need a higher min CP for these harder vets (for PUG groups), or you need some kind of a middle level, in between, as a stepping stone between the two.

Tigerseye · April 2020

pelle412 wrote: »

Being passive aggressive and calling people toxic elitists are just as toxic.

Well, presumably, the OP is only calling people, who are toxic and elitist, "toxic elitists"?

They're not saying that everyone, who just happens to have reached a certain CP level, is toxic, or in fact elitist, because that would be inaccurate.

I don't really know why anyone, who doesn't already regard themselves as both elite and toxic, would get offended by a reference to "toxic elitists"?

We all have a tether and we all reach the end of that tether, sooner or later - it's not referring to that.

The word "elitist" refers solely to people who regard themselves as better than others, just because they have reached a certain level/CP/gear level, or have certain achievements, in a game, or even just because they believe in looking up tactics, in detail, rather than just trying to learn as they go.

The word "toxic" then refers to people who express that elitism (snobbery, really) in a particularly toxic way.

I guess I'm just so used to the term being used, totally accurately, in games like WoW, that it doesn't bother me at all when people use it, now.

If it doesn't apply to you, why worry?

xaraan · April 2020

zantarizb14_ESO wrote: »

Just as a side note, I'm sometimes amused by the loudest of the elitist players are those who stand in the fire and expect to be healed through it. If they die, it's your fault and you don't belong.

Agreed. And that actually makes me think of something from my observations.

Most of the toxic 'end-game' players I've run into are not really 'end-game' players. I know a lot of guys from different guilds at end game and most are pretty chill and down to earth. I almost wonder if the ones that come off so toxic are that way b/c they are compensating and trying to be what they are not - like they are more worried about projecting how awesome they are than just being awesome.

pelle412 · April 2020

Tigerseye wrote: »

pelle412 wrote: »

Being passive aggressive and calling people toxic elitists are just as toxic.

If it doesn't apply to you, why worry?

My comment wasn't intended for the OP. It was intended for the silent crowd, avoiding participation and progress because they assume they'll be yelled at by toxic elitists. Propagating this is passive aggressive. My point was, if that fits someone, they can do something about it.

Cadbury · April 2020

pelle412 wrote: »

Tigerseye wrote: »

pelle412 wrote: »

Being passive aggressive and calling people toxic elitists are just as toxic.

If it doesn't apply to you, why worry?

My comment wasn't intended for the OP. It was intended for the silent crowd, avoiding participation and progress because they assume they'll be yelled at by toxic elitists. Propagating this is passive aggressive. My point was, if that fits someone, they can do something about it.

Sort of like "If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem"?

pelle412 · April 2020

Cadbury wrote: »

Sort of like "If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem"?

No. Since I haven't been able to clearly communicate my point (or maybe I have and this is trolling). The clearest analogy I can give you is, if you want something, go get it. It's not going to come fall in your lap. Fretting about it not happening and painting the world as elitist because nobody is coming to save you is passive aggressive.

Sylvermynx · April 2020

pelle412 wrote: »

Cadbury wrote: »

Sort of like "If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem"?

No. Since I haven't been able to clearly communicate my point (or maybe I have and this is trolling). The clearest analogy I can give you is, if you want something, go get it. It's not going to come fall in your lap. Fretting about it not happening and painting the world as elitist because nobody is coming to save you is passive aggressive.

Nah, I'd say that's playing the "victim card". Passive-aggressive is a very different kettle of fish.

zyk · April 2020

I think there's just a massive gap between types of players that most seem unable to even see.

I'll use myself as an example. I've been into hardcore gaming for decades. I'm older now, so can't play as often, but when I do, I only enjoy going all out -- by my reduced standards, at least. I need to feel I am pushing *my* limits and constantly improving. I only enjoy playing among like-minded gamers. I've been a member of successful clans and guilds in which few were friends outside of our organized gaming structure. If someone didn't meet our standards, they didn't play with us no matter what. We tolerated a lot of jerks because we didn't have to like each other. We weren't there to make friends.

I've only had a handful of RL friends and family members who enjoy games like that. Most people I know in real life can't fathom putting that much effort into gaming.

That's not a surprise though. I bet a lot here watch basketball, but how many of you are willing to put the work into an actual organized recreational team? I would bet 99.9% of basketball fans don't know the rules well enough to play a game without a lot of help. I like eating, but I can't prepare 5 star cuisine. It's normal. We all have things we prefer to try hard with and things we don't care so much about.

Basically, ZOS throws Iron Chefs and people who can barely fry an egg in the same kitchen and expects them to get along. It's not going to happen. From the Iron Chef's perspective, the other guy is a lazy slacker who is wasting his time and barely fry an egg guy feels that the Iron Chef is rude, takes food preparation way too seriously -- 'like who the f cares how I chop a carrot lol' -- and is probably not a lot of fun at parties. In a different environment, perhaps the life of the Iron Chef is saved by the medical expertise of the can't fry an egg guy, so it's not about merit, but rather how we like to enjoy this product.

I've always thought ESO needs separate enthusiast and casual queues because its playerbase is so broad. It's going to be toxic to someone when the time urgent hardcore gamer who is grinding is grouped with the super casual guy playing his way who wants to watch the cutscenes.

Nanfoodle · April 2020

Been MMOing for 22 years and I have never had a harder go with a community as I have with ESO. Been playing ESO for 9.5 months and the comments I have gotten and the number of times I have been kicked from group before we killed a single mob has floored me. Most are unforgiving. But I have found a really good guild.

MMOing has always been about community building. Helping new player succeed so end game players can thrive. Making new players unwelcome quickly kills a game. I'm 694CP and I still have people giving me a hard time that my CP is not high enough. (((eye roll))) And that just one of many problems new players face.

Nanfoodle · April 2020

Chicharron wrote: »

it's like in real life, there are good people and bad people, you can't expect everyone to be good.

It is a human being who is behind the screen, being anonymous they are not afraid to show how pathetic they are.

This is the common internet mentality. Forums, comment sections of YouTube videos has people saying things they never would to someone's face. Fact is, ESO has one of the largest learning curves of any MMO I have played. I remember watching dottz gaming newb video, it's 3hr long and it didn't scratch the surface of things I wished I had known starting this game. Lots in this community are chasing off new players and then asking why they can't find people to do end game content.

zyk · April 2020

Nanfoodle wrote: »

Been MMOing for 22 years and I have never had a harder go with a community as I have with ESO. Been playing ESO for 9.5 months and the comments I have gotten and the number of times I have been kicked from group before we killed a single mob has floored me. Most are unforgiving. But I have found a really good guild.

Did you play Everquest? I played for about 3 years from launch. Through SoV, EQ servers usually had amazing communities. What made EQ communities amazing was the incredible interdependence. Even midgame dungeons usually required groups. Only a couple of classes could solo effectively. In order to be considered for a pick up group, you had to have a good rep on the server. Or at least not a bad rep. That kept players in line.

The thing is, even though it was an amazing community, you still had to know how to do your job. Sometimes you would get players who would get to levels 40-50(max level) by soloing or duoing overland content, and then would be HUGE detriments to groups. EQ was very punishing, so one mistake by an ill-prepared group member could cost the group hours in corpse recoveries, lost gear and lost experience.

So yeah, EQ had an amazing community, but not just because players were nice and helpful. But aslo because of community ethics that enforced honesty, role expertise, reliability and preparedness. If the average ESO player tried to pug it in lower guk in 1999, they would have probably thought it to be incredibly toxic because they would be so bad at it.

Nanfoodle · April 2020

zyk wrote: »

Nanfoodle wrote: »

Been MMOing for 22 years and I have never had a harder go with a community as I have with ESO. Been playing ESO for 9.5 months and the comments I have gotten and the number of times I have been kicked from group before we killed a single mob has floored me. Most are unforgiving. But I have found a really good guild.

Did you play Everquest? I played for about 3 years from launch. Through SoV, EQ servers usually had amazing communities. What made EQ communities amazing was the incredible interdependence. Even midgame dungeons usually required groups. Only a couple of classes could solo effectively. In order to be considered for a pick up group, you had to have a good rep on the server. Or at least not a bad rep. That kept players in line.

The thing is, even though it was an amazing community, you still had to know how to do your job. Sometimes you would get players who would get to levels 40-50(max level) by soloing or duoing overland content, and then would be HUGE detriments to groups. EQ was very punishing, so one mistake by an ill-prepared group member could cost the group hours in corpse recoveries, lost gear and lost experience.

So yeah, EQ had an amazing community, but not just because players were nice and helpful. But aslo because of community ethics that enforced honesty, role expertise, reliability and preparedness. If the average ESO player tried to pug it in lower guk in 1999, they would have probably thought it to be incredibly toxic because they would be so bad at it.

Yes, I played EQ at launch in 1999. I can't count how many players I helped with teaching the game. People taking 15 min before each boss fight to type out each boss fight mechanics. Spending weeks helping new players get the gear they needed in lower end raids so they could join us. If 40% of the ESO community acted like that, end game would have way more active players. In 9.5 months, outside of my guild, only 2 players have stopped to be kind and help my wife and I. Chapter House has saved this game for my wife and I.

zyk · April 2020

Nanfoodle wrote: »

Yes, I played EQ at launch in 1999. I can't count how many players I helped with teaching the game. People taking 15 min before each boss fight to type out each boss fight mechanics. Spending weeks helping new players get the gear they needed in lower end raids so they could join us. If 40% of the ESO community acted like that, end game would have way more active players. In 9.5 months, outside of my guild, only 2 players have stopped to be kind and help my wife and I. Chapter House has saved this game for my wife and I.

ESO end game players are like that. With people who show up prepared to learn. I think almost everyone who played EQ to 50 in 1999 was hardcore by modern standards. You'd teach boss mechanics, but what about the healers that were meleeing instead of medding? The the tanks who couldn't hold agro -- which was more than pressing 1 button then. On Cazic, Lanys and Vazaelle, that would get you blacklisted from pickup groups and guilds pretty quickly.

But that's what we see in ESO dungeons because most players don't know the basics because they don't need to. Often everything about their build is wrong. There is too much to teach and because of the diversity of the community, you can't expect a rapport. Time urgent, competitive minded players should never be queued with very casual noobies. It's a recipe for disaster.

When ESO launched in 2014, levels 1-50 were so easy, I didn't learn how to play without realizing it. I didn't bother to learn how much things like break-free and bash cost, or even how to properly distribute attribute points. Like many ESO players, I ended up with a sort of hybrid. Then I hit vet content like a brick wall. Vet content at launch was far more difficult than today. It was nerfed a couple of months after launch. My character was useless. I got mad at the game. I raged to myself a little. I sent angry feedback. And then I looked in the mirror and realized I didn't actually understand the rules. I learned how to build characters, and I was easily able to complete vet content.

I think that happens to most ESO players. I think they get to CP 160 and assume they're pretty good at the game because they breezed through it. They may have some zip to their suboptimal routines that they feel great about, and then they hit a vet dlc dungeon... like a brick wall.

No one in their pug is going to be able to hand hold them through that knowledge gap. Nor should they. Sure it's nice when someone wants to help, but that should not be an expectation. Thousands of hours into a game, I don't enjoy spoonfeeding someone who doesn't intuitively google the knowledge they're missing. That's not why I play games. Consider how many times a 5-10k hour player has completed some of these dungeons. It might be in the thousands. So no, they might not care anymore if someone wants to read the dialog.

Nanfoodle · April 2020

zyk wrote: »

Nanfoodle wrote: »

Yes, I played EQ at launch in 1999. I can't count how many players I helped with teaching the game. People taking 15 min before each boss fight to type out each boss fight mechanics. Spending weeks helping new players get the gear they needed in lower end raids so they could join us. If 40% of the ESO community acted like that, end game would have way more active players. In 9.5 months, outside of my guild, only 2 players have stopped to be kind and help my wife and I. Chapter House has saved this game for my wife and I.

ESO end game players are like that. With people who show up prepared to learn. I think almost everyone who played EQ to 50 in 1999 were hardcore by modern standards. You'd teach boss mechanics, but what about the healers that were meleeing instead of medding? The the tanks who couldn't hold agro -- which was more than pressing 1 button then. On Cazic, Lanys and Vazaelle, that would get you blacklisted from pickup groups and guilds pretty quickly.

But that's what we see in ESO dungeons because most players don't know the basics because they don't need to. Often everything about their build is wrong. There is too much to teach and because of the diversity of the community, you can't expect a rapport. Time urgent, competitive minded players should never be queued with very casual noobies. It's a recipe for disaster.

When ESO launched in 2014, levels 1-50 were so easy, I didn't learn how to play without realizing it. I didn't bother to learn how much things like break-free and bash cost, or even how to properly distribute attribute points. Like many ESO players, I ended up with a sort of hybrid. Then I hit vet content like a brick wall. Vet content at launch was far more difficult than today. It was nerfed a couple of months after launch. My character was useless. I got mad at the game. I raged to myself a little. I sent angry feedback. And then I looked in the mirror and realized I didn't actually understand the rules. I learned how to build characters, and even though I stuck with Stamina then, I was easily able to complete vet content.

I think that happens to most ESO players. I think they get to CP 160 and assume they're pretty good at the game because they breezed through it. They may have some zip to their suboptimal routines that they feel great about, and then they hit a vet dlc dungeon... like a wall.

No one in their pug is going to be able to hand hold them through that knowledge gap. Nor should they. Sure it's nice when someone wants to help, but that should not be an expectation. Thousands of hours into a game, I don't enjoy spoonfeeding someone who doesn't intuitively google the knowledge they're missing. That's not why I play games. Consider how many times a 5-10k hour player has completed some of these dungeons. It might be in the thousands. So no, they might not care if someone wants to read the dialog anymore.

It's funny, I have a very different perspective. Taking 30 seconds before a boss fight just to say, when you see a red circle following you in this fight, just block. Sure you may wipe first go with new players when they experience a fight for the first time. But I have made many new friends who have thanked me, friended me to team again. From chain wipe too seeing them become good players. Taking a few mins, most times is all it takes. Only twice has someone done that for me in 9.5 months I have played ESO. That's a broken community.

Tigerseye · April 2020

pelle412 wrote: »

Tigerseye wrote: »

pelle412 wrote: »

Being passive aggressive and calling people toxic elitists are just as toxic.

If it doesn't apply to you, why worry?

My comment wasn't intended for the OP. It was intended for the silent crowd, avoiding participation and progress because they assume they'll be yelled at by toxic elitists. Propagating this is passive aggressive. My point was, if that fits someone, they can do something about it.

pelle412 wrote: »

Cadbury wrote: »

Sort of like "If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem"?

No. Since I haven't been able to clearly communicate my point (or maybe I have and this is trolling). The clearest analogy I can give you is, if you want something, go get it. It's not going to come fall in your lap. Fretting about it not happening and painting the world as elitist because nobody is coming to save you is passive aggressive.

I see what you're saying, but I don't think that is what is happening, here.

They're not saying every high CP player is a toxic elitist.

They're saying - or thinking, in the case of the "silent crowd" - that they know some are, so they would rather not risk bumping into any of them.

That isn't passive aggressive, that is just choosing to avoid a potentially unpleasant situation, after weighing up the pros and cons.

Bearing in mind, we are presumably mainly talking about random groups, here?

Not people they already know to be OK.

zyk · April 2020

Nanfoodle wrote: »

It's funny, I have a very different perspective. Taking 30 seconds before a boss fight just to say, when you see a red circle following you in this fight, just block. Sure you may wipe first go with new players when they experience a fight for the first time. But I have made many new friends who have thanked me, friended me to team again. From chain wipe too seeing them become good players. Taking a few mins, most times is all it takes. Only twice has someone done that for me in 9.5 months I have played ESO. That's a broken community.

I think it would be better if the game had something like mentor queues so experienced players can do that if they feel like it. You have to understand that for various reasons experienced players are incentivized to complete dungeons repeatedly for years. They have literally completed some of these dungeons thousands of times. For all you know, they were nice about it the first 1500 times before it got a bit old. Especially because the required skill gap between overland and vet dlc dungeons is so wide.

This community can only be broken. EQ was dominated by players from gen x. Half the people I played with also liked to listen to Ministry. ESO is played in large numbers by 3 generations and probably has more boomers than EQ. Gaming is also a lot more general now. The enthusiasm level of ESO players ranges from ultra casual to hardcore. I found it very difficult to find players I have a rapport with in ESO compared to hardcore games like Rust. Or even csgo and Valorant.

Game design needs to be more intelligent now. There was another thread recently about a training instance to train players for vet content. I think that would help a lot. But also, there should be queues for people who enjoy the game fast, slow and for mentorship.

aetherial_heavenn · April 2020

Nanfoodle wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

Nanfoodle wrote: »

Yes, I played EQ at launch in 1999. I can't count how many players I helped with teaching the game. People taking 15 min before each boss fight to type out each boss fight mechanics. Spending weeks helping new players get the gear they needed in lower end raids so they could join us. If 40% of the ESO community acted like that, end game would have way more active players. In 9.5 months, outside of my guild, only 2 players have stopped to be kind and help my wife and I. Chapter House has saved this game for my wife and I.

ESO end game players are like that. With people who show up prepared to learn. I think almost everyone who played EQ to 50 in 1999 were hardcore by modern standards. You'd teach boss mechanics, but what about the healers that were meleeing instead of medding? The the tanks who couldn't hold agro -- which was more than pressing 1 button then. On Cazic, Lanys and Vazaelle, that would get you blacklisted from pickup groups and guilds pretty quickly.

But that's what we see in ESO dungeons because most players don't know the basics because they don't need to. Often everything about their build is wrong. There is too much to teach and because of the diversity of the community, you can't expect a rapport. Time urgent, competitive minded players should never be queued with very casual noobies. It's a recipe for disaster.

When ESO launched in 2014, levels 1-50 were so easy, I didn't learn how to play without realizing it. I didn't bother to learn how much things like break-free and bash cost, or even how to properly distribute attribute points. Like many ESO players, I ended up with a sort of hybrid. Then I hit vet content like a brick wall. Vet content at launch was far more difficult than today. It was nerfed a couple of months after launch. My character was useless. I got mad at the game. I raged to myself a little. I sent angry feedback. And then I looked in the mirror and realized I didn't actually understand the rules. I learned how to build characters, and even though I stuck with Stamina then, I was easily able to complete vet content.

I think that happens to most ESO players. I think they get to CP 160 and assume they're pretty good at the game because they breezed through it. They may have some zip to their suboptimal routines that they feel great about, and then they hit a vet dlc dungeon... like a wall.

No one in their pug is going to be able to hand hold them through that knowledge gap. Nor should they. Sure it's nice when someone wants to help, but that should not be an expectation. Thousands of hours into a game, I don't enjoy spoonfeeding someone who doesn't intuitively google the knowledge they're missing. That's not why I play games. Consider how many times a 5-10k hour player has completed some of these dungeons. It might be in the thousands. So no, they might not care if someone wants to read the dialog anymore.

It's funny, I have a very different perspective. Taking 30 seconds before a boss fight just to say, when you see a red circle following you in this fight, just block. Sure you may wipe first go with new players when they experience a fight for the first time. But I have made many new friends who have thanked me, friended me to team again. From chain wipe too seeing them become good players. Taking a few mins, most times is all it takes. Only twice has someone done that for me in 9.5 months I have played ESO. That's a broken community.

Both these quotes are valid. Some people want to learn and listen and others simply can't or won't pay attention to typed instructions. I can link dungeon mechanics and type out how to's in a group struggling with DLC and one person clearly pays attention and changes how the play accordingly. One tries but still stuffs up the block or hiding from lazers (that latter is me LOL) but slowly improves. And one continues to do it the same and stuff it up over and over (usually DPSing the boss and not the adds and thus causing major issues:D)

But unless I am asked, I never make suggestions about build or skill choice anymore. I will insist on taking food from me if health is 11k. But that's it. I have learned any unasked for suggestion about play style or gear choice will be taken as toxic, elitist, or against the 'play how I want' ethos of this game by a large bunch of players, no matter how well intended the advice is or how gently it is expressed.

On Fanglorn on a fully built for vet trials healer, with only wall and ele drain on my bar I had been doing 28% of the group dps and 80% of the heals. So I suggested to a CP 600 DPS that as I was full heals(the role I queued for) that they really didn't need to have a resto bar full of heals on their sorc and did they want to take a moment to change some stuff before the boss fight? I won't repeat the answer they gave but suffice to say that was my last attempt at helping people without them asking. On the other hand I spent over an hour in a pug last week while we learned vMoS because they kept wanting to try again...and each time we got better. One joined my guild as a result and are very happy doing new to them dungeons daily, having their gear sorted and their questions answered. etc..

There is a very strong culture of not 'telling people how to play' in this game. For some people this means 'I don't teach'. For others it means 'I don't learn'. For others, 'teaching isn't telling, it's helping'. Finding your type in a pug is random. Hence joining a good guild where its norms and yours coincide is the best path for most people.

I tend to do random pugs when I'm learning to play with a new character so I am not being spoiled by guildie runs into thinking I am better than I am. Pugs are always going to be a mishmash....I have got vet hardmode speed runs in pugs that I haven't got done in guild runs. And I have met some a-holes who were toxic at extreme levels and incompetent simultaneously. In the main my sig-courtesy of Wrath of Innes- says it all

newtinmpls · April 2020

zyk wrote: »

I think that happens to most ESO players. I think they get to CP 160 and assume they're pretty good at the game because they breezed through it. They may have some zip to their suboptimal routines that they feel great about, and then they hit a vet dlc dungeon... like a brick wall.

Still happens today, and the skill/difficulty gap between non and vet is ... ridiculous.

I run with a group of four; we did Marselok a couple of times on non-vet to get the feel of what was going on.

Yesterday we tried it on vet.

First battle to subdue Selene totally mashed us. Tried again, trying to figure out what we were missing in terms of mechanics. Still problematic. Switched out one of our group, and did a bit better. Got to the point where the Spiders show up. Died a lot.

Ran it a few more times, and called it for dinner. Literally did not make it past the first Boss fight on vet.

It's not like we are noobs; we've run other vet content, and two of us are even darn decent in BG and PvP. But the "non-vet" version of this dungeon is in no way even an F-ing clue as to how hard the Vet version hits.

We will eventually get it....but it will take time, and unfortunately lost of watching various videos of how to do it.