CP = Less viable builds, less kiss-curse (or meaningful choices), more error forgiveness

Nerhesi · April 2020

idk wrote: »

From what I have read of OP's comments they are saying that defensive CP is calculated before offensive CP so this makes us tankier which OP is also saying CP makes us less viable.

Since being tankier would increase our survival it seems that is not an issue with being viable. Granted, I am not saying OP is right or wrong but that their logic seems flawed.

I dont draw the same conclusion as you, hence why I would be of the view that your logic is flawed. Making you tankier is what is making builds less viable. It's literally rewarding you for doing nothing or making the opposite choice.

Because when you make that Super DPS build, more tanky and sustainable and defensive... then you're removing the innate weakness that person made due to their choices. CPs, should focus you more on your role/style of play - rather than generically grant people blanket % bonuses and reductions, which ultimately then result in covering up the weaknesses.

idk wrote: »

Further, everyone has the same CP so the "viability" issue is equal though we know some players do not spend their CP wisely as Zos has told us this much. I will say that CP makes us more specialized but that would mean our builds would be more viable for how we make them.

That the fallacy that wouldn't be - if CP really did make you more specialized. It doesnt - it rewards the opposite.

A-) The Same points spent on CP offensively and defensively, result in more defense (because you reduce after you increase).
B-) There are also CPs spent that do not have any counter offensively - example, Cheaper Dodge, Break Free, Increased Sustain (none of these help Offense. Even offensive sustain is a "trick" as it doesnt increase burst DPS, which ofcourse defensive sustain does counter).
C-) You're actually literally rewarded for the first few points you spend in a CP category rather than the more you spend. That is the literal opposite of specialization

The above 3 points very simply provide you with net mathematical improvements to defense with near-zero options or variance between builds.

MartiniDaniels · April 2020

My opinion over this is to make some or all CP perks (Unchained, Exploiter etc) available to any player right from the start no matter if he has CPs or not. Make those skills which scale only with max magicka, scalable with SD too.

As for the resource drain builds... imo this builds are cancerous/unskilled and one of the reasons of tank meta and they shouldn't be empowered in any way. Technically this builds either force you to PVP around resource tower/rock or run more sustain then you need against meta builds effectively turning you into another player with infinite sustain, who can't kill anybody if game won't lag heavily and can't be killed either.

Nerhesi · April 2020

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

As for the resource drain builds... imo this builds are cancerous/unskilled and one of the reasons of tank meta and they shouldn't be empowered in any way. Technically this builds either force you to PVP around resource tower/rock or run more sustain then you need against meta builds effectively turning you into another player with infinite sustain, who can't kill anybody if game won't lag heavily and can't be killed either.

I'm not going to disagree with you here but I can't agree.

Logically - it is equally "cancerous" if I die to someone using burst, or pressing buttons - They are all equally unskilled/skilled as that is subjective.. It is equally valid to say " Skill derives from choices I make strategically, and not just skill-less muscle memory weaving".

However, you can subjectively say it's supremely annoying to be denied the use of your ability - but this is a very common argument in game design (in any competitive game, from PC to boardgames). It is not limited to resource drain, but also to heavy CC, or "countering" builds and so on (in games in general). But objectively, I can say it is just as annoying that you're healing yourself and not just dying... or so annoying that you have huge burst as that just removes skill from the game - just go play counter strike! etc etc..

Again - I completely understand what you're saying. I would think that a healthy meta would allow most/many builds. What it should not allow is builds without much counters other than themselves.

So you could allow resource drain/denial/whatever builds for example.. but then they can't be tanky or bursty. So I wouldn't mind if the meta had a build, that wasn't bursty, took 2-3 minutes to kill you in a 1v1. But this made it a very bad choice in Cyrodil and nearly useless in BGs. It'd be almost like old school EQ Necro, Classic WoW Warlock, Pre ToA Cabalist in DaoC, etc etc... Niche and good in few scenarios if people enjoying playing that, and it may counter some top builds, but generally not effective in 80% of the PvP scenarios in game.

But I want to be clear - I dont want to replace bursty/cc/sustaining/defensive narrow meta with resource-drain/tanky meta. The idea is to actually expand the viable meta.

Xologamer · April 2020

mav1234 wrote: »

Nord_Raseri wrote: »

Because of cp, my pve nord stamsorc dps IS viable. Not optimal, but viable. So I'd say that "CP=Less viable builds" is absolutely wrong.

nord is a great choice as a stam or mag dps in no-cp pvp precisely because no-cp has so many tradeoffs. getting tht huge a resist buff helps a ton in no cp.

cp definitely limits the meta. no-cp forces players to account for sustain in their builds in ways that cp builds do not need to.

you wrote it yourself
no cp forces player in build with e.g. mroie sustain which makes less build viable and cp does the opposite

Foxic · April 2020

I've been saying for quite some time now that the only thing cp has done for eso is shoehorn players damage types.

katorga · April 2020

The best idea I've heard is reward you for spending more points instead of punishing you with diminishing returns. Then you get true differentation of builds if you have to dedicate 100 points in a few stars rather than an even spread everywhere.

Everything in the game is scaled to CP being there. You can remove CP in PVP because it is a isolated environment (and even then they have to arbitrality change the rules with things like battle spirit). But the entire pve game is scaled to take CP into account. Removing or radically changing it will require retuning literally everything. You also have to take into account ZOS's coding skills....there is no telling what would just break.

MartiniDaniels · April 2020

Nerhesi wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

As for the resource drain builds... imo this builds are cancerous/unskilled and one of the reasons of tank meta and they shouldn't be empowered in any way. Technically this builds either force you to PVP around resource tower/rock or run more sustain then you need against meta builds effectively turning you into another player with infinite sustain, who can't kill anybody if game won't lag heavily and can't be killed either.

I'm not going to disagree with you here but I can't agree.

Logically - it is equally "cancerous" if I die to someone using burst, or pressing buttons - They are all equally unskilled/skilled as that is subjective.. It is equally valid to say " Skill derives from choices I make strategically, and not just skill-less muscle memory weaving".

However, you can subjectively say it's supremely annoying to be denied the use of your ability - but this is a very common argument in game design (in any competitive game, from PC to boardgames). It is not limited to resource drain, but also to heavy CC, or "countering" builds and so on (in games in general). But objectively, I can say it is just as annoying that you're healing yourself and not just dying... or so annoying that you have huge burst as that just removes skill from the game - just go play counter strike! etc etc..

Again - I completely understand what you're saying. I would think that a healthy meta would allow most/many builds. What it should not allow is builds without much counters other than themselves.

So you could allow resource drain/denial/whatever builds for example.. but then they can't be tanky or bursty. So I wouldn't mind if the meta had a build, that wasn't bursty, took 2-3 minutes to kill you in a 1v1. But this made it a very bad choice in Cyrodil and nearly useless in BGs. It'd be almost like old school EQ Necro, Classic WoW Warlock, Pre ToA Cabalist in DaoC, etc etc... Niche and good in few scenarios if people enjoying playing that, and it may counter some top builds, but generally not effective in 80% of the PvP scenarios in game.

But I want to be clear - I dont want to replace bursty/cc/sustaining/defensive narrow meta with resource-drain/tanky meta. The idea is to actually expand the viable meta.

Well, I agree with what you wrote. It's not like resource drain builds are cancerous overall in history of gaming, I meant current resource drains builds which exist within U24-U25. Those guys don't even try to burst you, they just keep using unblockable cc on cc-immunity cooldown, while spamming something and playing defensive. This leads to the situation where you either need to run to LOS conditions, or to adjust your build - i.e. more recovery glyphs instead of damage glyphs. This is not that notable in CP due to Unchained, reduced break free cost and other perks, but in no-CP this is real problem.

katorga · April 2020

daemonor wrote: »

Can you stop. Posting. About. Heavy. Armor. Meta. No one in their right mind uses heavy armor cause its trash, you get a laughable resistance bonus and 8% healing. No 15% free weapon damage, no cheaper sprint, no cheaper dodge roll. It's not heavy meta, its medium armor meta. Medium armor was crap for a long time and now it has it's time to shine. Fury jewelery chest+legs, bloodspawn, nma is the meta. Spriggans, essence thief is the meta. Either morph of shuffle is the meta.

Everyone who keeps crying about hurdur 30k resistance heavy armor meta is a salty mag player who never tried stamina. Go on youtube, check harrowstorm stam pvp builds. Which one of them have 30k resistances? How many of them stack 2 medium damage sets and bloodspawn? Do the math, don't use your imagination and sentiments.

I think people blame "tanky" for attacks just not registering due to lag, strange LOS behavior, changes to block/cancelling, and just plain missing. But medium/Bloodspawn plus BRP dual wield is way more mitigation than heavy.

Kidgangster101 · April 2020

katorga wrote: »

daemonor wrote: »

Can you stop. Posting. About. Heavy. Armor. Meta. No one in their right mind uses heavy armor cause its trash, you get a laughable resistance bonus and 8% healing. No 15% free weapon damage, no cheaper sprint, no cheaper dodge roll. It's not heavy meta, its medium armor meta. Medium armor was crap for a long time and now it has it's time to shine. Fury jewelery chest+legs, bloodspawn, nma is the meta. Spriggans, essence thief is the meta. Either morph of shuffle is the meta.

Everyone who keeps crying about hurdur 30k resistance heavy armor meta is a salty mag player who never tried stamina. Go on youtube, check harrowstorm stam pvp builds. Which one of them have 30k resistances? How many of them stack 2 medium damage sets and bloodspawn? Do the math, don't use your imagination and sentiments.

I think people blame "tanky" for attacks just not registering due to lag, strange LOS behavior, changes to block/cancelling, and just plain missing. But medium/Bloodspawn plus BRP dual wield is way more mitigation than heavy.

People just assume because they can't kill someone it's a heavy armor user, just like when BG allowed group ques every team that stayed together was a premade lol 🤣🤣🤣🤣.

BG que is solo only and now a lot of people are seeing it wasn't really PREMADES same with this, just check YouTube most people aren't using heavy armor and they are very tanky, very bursty, and have crazy vigor ticks like 7-9k a tick or something like that. Idk it maybe has something to do with 30k resistances and 6k+ weapon damage?