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CP = Less viable builds, less kiss-curse (or meaningful choices), more error forgiveness
Nerhesi
✭✭✭✭
Good morning!
I wanted to bring up an opinion here that I've noticed over some extensive PVP in many different environments (CP Cyrodil, Non-CP Cyrodil, BGs, Duels, etc...). I am hoping these issues get addressed with the supposed CP replacement/rework that is coming up at some point.
Some of you may have noticed that some builds work in no-CP but dont work in CP environments. This is especially true in PvP where the following is true because of CP:
1) Defensive CPs being calculated after offensive CPs means that the same amount of bonuses still mean overall better defense. The best way to think of this (simplistically) is that 10k damage +30% then -30% actually ends up 9100 damage (not 10k).
2) 3k extra primary stats - Just a freebie safety net for dodge rolling, breakfree, and resources.
3) The CP defensive bonuses with very little/no offensive equivalent. This is most clearly felt as cost reductions for dodge rolling, break free, and primary stat regen bonuses.
The above factors all contribute to the following:
A-) Meaningful choices become less prevalent in CP. Because your CP provides you with more defense, more regen, more break free, etc... So go ahead and make that 40k+ primary stat build because you dont have to worry. You can dodge roll and break free half a dozen times as long as you have 12k Stamina (3k bonus, great cost reductions etc)
B-) Attrition/sustained damage builds are gone. Due to the above reasons, the only way to actually kill someone is that stun-burst-DD combo. This makes for a sad state of affairs in a fantasy RPG where there is basically only 1 meta to kill someone.
I'm not saying the idea of CP is bad. I'm saying the current iteration is. I would think that overall, to support the play the way you want, you want CP to provide you more viable focused direction. So you would have to make the choice between +20% to DD and +20% to defence (not just get both); or a +5% to DoTs for every DoT slotted (but then you dont get that +20% DDs, so you're not spamming something as effectively as the guy who chose to focus on DD). Or perhaps you decide to go more defensive and you get that +20% overall healing, and +25% more regen on magicka and stamina... but then you also dont get to pack the +20% damage reduction and +20% damage done on top!
Ideally, CP shouldn't result in almost cookie-cutter templates across almost all roles (as it does today). There will always be a best of template - but that template should be one of 5-10 that vary depending on the role/build, and has you making meaningful choices.
Thoughts?
Edited by Nerhesi on April 16, 2020 5:29PM I wanted to bring up an opinion here that I've noticed over some extensive PVP in many different environments (CP Cyrodil, Non-CP Cyrodil, BGs, Duels, etc...). I am hoping these issues get addressed with the supposed CP replacement/rework that is coming up at some point.
Some of you may have noticed that some builds work in no-CP but dont work in CP environments. This is especially true in PvP where the following is true because of CP:
1) Defensive CPs being calculated after offensive CPs means that the same amount of bonuses still mean overall better defense. The best way to think of this (simplistically) is that 10k damage +30% then -30% actually ends up 9100 damage (not 10k).
2) 3k extra primary stats - Just a freebie safety net for dodge rolling, breakfree, and resources.
3) The CP defensive bonuses with very little/no offensive equivalent. This is most clearly felt as cost reductions for dodge rolling, break free, and primary stat regen bonuses.
The above factors all contribute to the following:
A-) Meaningful choices become less prevalent in CP. Because your CP provides you with more defense, more regen, more break free, etc... So go ahead and make that 40k+ primary stat build because you dont have to worry. You can dodge roll and break free half a dozen times as long as you have 12k Stamina (3k bonus, great cost reductions etc)
B-) Attrition/sustained damage builds are gone. Due to the above reasons, the only way to actually kill someone is that stun-burst-DD combo. This makes for a sad state of affairs in a fantasy RPG where there is basically only 1 meta to kill someone.
I'm not saying the idea of CP is bad. I'm saying the current iteration is. I would think that overall, to support the play the way you want, you want CP to provide you more viable focused direction. So you would have to make the choice between +20% to DD and +20% to defence (not just get both); or a +5% to DoTs for every DoT slotted (but then you dont get that +20% DDs, so you're not spamming something as effectively as the guy who chose to focus on DD). Or perhaps you decide to go more defensive and you get that +20% overall healing, and +25% more regen on magicka and stamina... but then you also dont get to pack the +20% damage reduction and +20% damage done on top!
Ideally, CP shouldn't result in almost cookie-cutter templates across almost all roles (as it does today). There will always be a best of template - but that template should be one of 5-10 that vary depending on the role/build, and has you making meaningful choices.
Thoughts?
5
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Aznox✭✭✭✭✭Maybe players could be forced to choose one of the three champion trees ?
You either go Defense, Sustain or Offense, with each patch bringing subtle changes to preserve balance and thus adding more depth to character building, for both PVE and PVP.
Aznox
PC EU
Khajiit Orc Bosmer Stamina Sorcerer and Werewolf Stage 3 Vampire
I live in Battlegrounds
Theorycrafting enthusiast
Official Cheese Lord
CP1500+ club1 -
Nord_Raseri✭✭✭✭✭
✭Because of cp, my pve nord stamsorc dps IS viable. Not optimal, but viable. So I'd say that "CP=Less viable builds" is absolutely wrong.Veit ég aðég hékk vindga meiði á nætr allar níu, geiri undaðr og gefinn Oðni, sjálfr sjálfum mér, á þeim meiði er manngi veit hvers hann af rótum rennr.5 -
Aedaryl✭✭✭✭✭
✭Except magplar, no CP *** hard magicka builds.
The sustain is just too horrible. Both Stam and mag.
A stamboi just need to heavy attack a bit more and their sustain is fine.
Magicka need to invest further into Magicka regen because heavy attack with staff is ***. And you need to invest into Stam sustain as well because break free and dodge cost far too much.
Theze sustain issue kill the possibilities to build outside the box for Magicka.
This is why I never play no CP, most of my mag builds aren't sustainable.1 -
Nerhesi✭✭✭✭Nord_Raseri wrote: »Because of cp, my pve nord stamsorc dps IS viable. Not optimal, but viable. So I'd say that "CP=Less viable builds" is absolutely wrong.
I think this proves my point - also Im talking about PvP. But:
A build that is nearly completely unsupported - becomes viable through CP. This is actually a very good example of why my point is correct. You provided a great example (granted PVE) of how CP literally shores up the weakness.
Meanwhile, what it is doing to PvP End game, is allowing you survive well with builds that are hyper damage focused, without penalising you because it still lets you break free, dodge roll, reduce damage and so on.5 -
Nerhesi✭✭✭✭Except magplar, no CP *** hard magicka builds.
The sustain is just too horrible. Both Stam and mag.
A stamboi just need to heavy attack a bit more and their sustain is fine.
Magicka need to invest further into Magicka regen because heavy attack with staff is ***. And you need to invest into Stam sustain as well because break free and dodge cost far too much.
Theze sustain issue kill the possibilities to build outside the box for Magicka.
This is why I never play no CP, most of my mag builds aren't sustainable.
The vast majority of my no-CP builds have been Mag and I totally agree with you. This another great example of the point:
If you're not building in a sustain set... you should be having trouble sustaining. The reality is that in CP enabled settings though, I can survive just fine with Elemental Drain and around 900-gear based sustain.
You're absolutely right about the Stamboi - but until he actually bothers to take those 2 seconds to heavy attach, and not just Weave/Spamm a crapton of damage, he may actually find himself without stamina for a break free or a dodge roll. Right now, in CP, I find my stamina tunes much more optimal because i'm a rolly/polly break-free, bashing, spamming beast. Take a look at those of us doing high end duels... and you'll see non-stop BF/Rolling for stam builds.I would like to imagine a time when my stamblade/plar would actually have to worry about end usage!
2 -
Nerhesi✭✭✭✭Maybe players could be forced to choose one of the three champion trees ?
You either go Defense, Sustain or Offense, with each patch bringing subtle changes to preserve balance and thus adding more depth to character building, for both PVE and PVP.
This is probably the easiest/best - zero effort fix
a) Flip the diminishing returns. Reward people for focusing rather than for the first 20 points or so in particular CP category.
b) Group the points together so people actually have to make a choice about where to put their points.
c) Simplify some of the points to avoid double dipping silly-math.
I personally wouldn't want this because it is the clunky quick fix. I would think a much more thought out approach to the trees and less "100s" of points, with more "few select choices" is a better approach. The approach of 100s of points and plus 1/2 a percent here and there is really dated and less meaningful than you get this DD! or this new attack, or hell.. even you just get a flat 20% for picking this option.
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Aedaryl✭✭✭✭✭
✭Except magplar, no CP *** hard magicka builds.
The sustain is just too horrible. Both Stam and mag.
A stamboi just need to heavy attack a bit more and their sustain is fine.
Magicka need to invest further into Magicka regen because heavy attack with staff is ***. And you need to invest into Stam sustain as well because break free and dodge cost far too much.
Theze sustain issue kill the possibilities to build outside the box for Magicka.
This is why I never play no CP, most of my mag builds aren't sustainable.
The vast majority of my no-CP builds have been Mag and I totally agree with you. This another great example of the point:
If you're not building in a sustain set... you should be having trouble sustaining. The reality is that in CP enabled settings though, I can survive just fine with Elemental Drain and around 900-gear based sustain.
You're absolutely right about the Stamboi - but until he actually bothers to take those 2 seconds to heavy attach, and not just Weave/Spamm a crapton of damage, he may actually find himself without stamina for a break free or a dodge roll. Right now, in CP, I find my stamina tunes much more optimal because i'm a rolly/polly break-free, bashing, spamming beast. Take a look at those of us doing high end duels... and you'll see non-stop BF/Rolling for stam builds.I would like to imagine a time when my stamblade/plar would actually have to worry about end usage!
Magsorc already run a Magicka sustain set in CP and you still cannot sustain without dark exchange, Magblade is almost unstainable if you aren't a ganker. In no CP it's even worse.
In both CP and no CP, heavy armor bloospawn fury + damage set sustain very well even by going full damage.
All of that because stamina is able to do heavy attacks in fight for unlimited sustain while Magicka will be dead by the time heavy attack end because it take too much time to do.
No way I will bring my Magicka toon who need to invest to sustain in a place where stamina still go almost full damage without any trouble.0 -
EtTuBrutus✭✭✭✭✭Except magplar, no CP *** hard magicka builds.
The sustain is just too horrible. Both Stam and mag.
A stamboi just need to heavy attack a bit more and their sustain is fine.
Magicka need to invest further into Magicka regen because heavy attack with staff is ***. And you need to invest into Stam sustain as well because break free and dodge cost far too much.
Theze sustain issue kill the possibilities to build outside the box for Magicka.
This is why I never play no CP, most of my mag builds aren't sustainable.
The vast majority of my no-CP builds have been Mag and I totally agree with you. This another great example of the point:
If you're not building in a sustain set... you should be having trouble sustaining. The reality is that in CP enabled settings though, I can survive just fine with Elemental Drain and around 900-gear based sustain.
You're absolutely right about the Stamboi - but until he actually bothers to take those 2 seconds to heavy attach, and not just Weave/Spamm a crapton of damage, he may actually find himself without stamina for a break free or a dodge roll. Right now, in CP, I find my stamina tunes much more optimal because i'm a rolly/polly break-free, bashing, spamming beast. Take a look at those of us doing high end duels... and you'll see non-stop BF/Rolling for stam builds.I would like to imagine a time when my stamblade/plar would actually have to worry about end usage!
What magicka class are you that survives on 900 mag regen and elemental drain? At 1 cast per second you're lying. Or by gear based sustain do you mean on top of base sustain?Edited by EtTuBrutus on April 16, 2020 5:32PM0 -
Aedaryl✭✭✭✭✭
✭EtTuBrutus wrote: »Except magplar, no CP *** hard magicka builds.
The sustain is just too horrible. Both Stam and mag.
A stamboi just need to heavy attack a bit more and their sustain is fine.
Magicka need to invest further into Magicka regen because heavy attack with staff is ***. And you need to invest into Stam sustain as well because break free and dodge cost far too much.
Theze sustain issue kill the possibilities to build outside the box for Magicka.
This is why I never play no CP, most of my mag builds aren't sustainable.
The vast majority of my no-CP builds have been Mag and I totally agree with you. This another great example of the point:
If you're not building in a sustain set... you should be having trouble sustaining. The reality is that in CP enabled settings though, I can survive just fine with Elemental Drain and around 900-gear based sustain.
You're absolutely right about the Stamboi - but until he actually bothers to take those 2 seconds to heavy attach, and not just Weave/Spamm a crapton of damage, he may actually find himself without stamina for a break free or a dodge roll. Right now, in CP, I find my stamina tunes much more optimal because i'm a rolly/polly break-free, bashing, spamming beast. Take a look at those of us doing high end duels... and you'll see non-stop BF/Rolling for stam builds.I would like to imagine a time when my stamblade/plar would actually have to worry about end usage!
What magicka class are you that survives on 900 mag regen and elemental drain? At 1 cast per second you're lying. Or by gear based sustain do you mean on top of base sustain?
Only a magplar could do it, but with major intellect, Light armor I don't see how you can still be that low.0 -
Solariken✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭EtTuBrutus wrote: »Except magplar, no CP *** hard magicka builds.
The sustain is just too horrible. Both Stam and mag.
A stamboi just need to heavy attack a bit more and their sustain is fine.
Magicka need to invest further into Magicka regen because heavy attack with staff is ***. And you need to invest into Stam sustain as well because break free and dodge cost far too much.
Theze sustain issue kill the possibilities to build outside the box for Magicka.
This is why I never play no CP, most of my mag builds aren't sustainable.
The vast majority of my no-CP builds have been Mag and I totally agree with you. This another great example of the point:
If you're not building in a sustain set... you should be having trouble sustaining. The reality is that in CP enabled settings though, I can survive just fine with Elemental Drain and around 900-gear based sustain.
You're absolutely right about the Stamboi - but until he actually bothers to take those 2 seconds to heavy attach, and not just Weave/Spamm a crapton of damage, he may actually find himself without stamina for a break free or a dodge roll. Right now, in CP, I find my stamina tunes much more optimal because i'm a rolly/polly break-free, bashing, spamming beast. Take a look at those of us doing high end duels... and you'll see non-stop BF/Rolling for stam builds.I would like to imagine a time when my stamblade/plar would actually have to worry about end usage!
What magicka class are you that survives on 900 mag regen and elemental drain? At 1 cast per second you're lying. Or by gear based sustain do you mean on top of base sustain?
He's not lying. I have a couple NoCP BG mag builds that have less than 1k regen and I sustain just fine. In CP it's almost impossible to run out of resources.1 -
EtTuBrutus✭✭✭✭✭EtTuBrutus wrote: »Except magplar, no CP *** hard magicka builds.
The sustain is just too horrible. Both Stam and mag.
A stamboi just need to heavy attack a bit more and their sustain is fine.
Magicka need to invest further into Magicka regen because heavy attack with staff is ***. And you need to invest into Stam sustain as well because break free and dodge cost far too much.
Theze sustain issue kill the possibilities to build outside the box for Magicka.
This is why I never play no CP, most of my mag builds aren't sustainable.
The vast majority of my no-CP builds have been Mag and I totally agree with you. This another great example of the point:
If you're not building in a sustain set... you should be having trouble sustaining. The reality is that in CP enabled settings though, I can survive just fine with Elemental Drain and around 900-gear based sustain.
You're absolutely right about the Stamboi - but until he actually bothers to take those 2 seconds to heavy attach, and not just Weave/Spamm a crapton of damage, he may actually find himself without stamina for a break free or a dodge roll. Right now, in CP, I find my stamina tunes much more optimal because i'm a rolly/polly break-free, bashing, spamming beast. Take a look at those of us doing high end duels... and you'll see non-stop BF/Rolling for stam builds.I would like to imagine a time when my stamblade/plar would actually have to worry about end usage!
What magicka class are you that survives on 900 mag regen and elemental drain? At 1 cast per second you're lying. Or by gear based sustain do you mean on top of base sustain?
Only a magplar could do it, but with major intellect, Light armor I don't see how you can still be that low.
I think he means in addition to base. 1600 is actually pretty typical and i wouldnt consider that a small investment.0 -
Aedaryl✭✭✭✭✭
✭EtTuBrutus wrote: »Except magplar, no CP *** hard magicka builds.
The sustain is just too horrible. Both Stam and mag.
A stamboi just need to heavy attack a bit more and their sustain is fine.
Magicka need to invest further into Magicka regen because heavy attack with staff is ***. And you need to invest into Stam sustain as well because break free and dodge cost far too much.
Theze sustain issue kill the possibilities to build outside the box for Magicka.
This is why I never play no CP, most of my mag builds aren't sustainable.
The vast majority of my no-CP builds have been Mag and I totally agree with you. This another great example of the point:
If you're not building in a sustain set... you should be having trouble sustaining. The reality is that in CP enabled settings though, I can survive just fine with Elemental Drain and around 900-gear based sustain.
You're absolutely right about the Stamboi - but until he actually bothers to take those 2 seconds to heavy attach, and not just Weave/Spamm a crapton of damage, he may actually find himself without stamina for a break free or a dodge roll. Right now, in CP, I find my stamina tunes much more optimal because i'm a rolly/polly break-free, bashing, spamming beast. Take a look at those of us doing high end duels... and you'll see non-stop BF/Rolling for stam builds.I would like to imagine a time when my stamblade/plar would actually have to worry about end usage!
What magicka class are you that survives on 900 mag regen and elemental drain? At 1 cast per second you're lying. Or by gear based sustain do you mean on top of base sustain?
He's not lying. I have a couple NoCP BG mag builds that have less than 1k regen and I sustain just fine. In CP it's almost impossible to run out of resources.
I doubt it.
Which classes?0 -
Nerhesi✭✭✭✭Magsorc already run a Magicka sustain set in CP and you still cannot sustain without dark exchange, Magblade is almost unstainable if you aren't a ganker. In no CP it's even worse.
Correct - because as a MagSorc with a DPS and sustain set, spamming Frags and weaving Force shock - you're DPS monster!. Perhaps you shouldn't have great sustain when you're one of the (if not the) top dog when it comes to bust damage?
The only sustain you have from the above is bloodspawn. So mathematically, you have a massive sustain difference in CP than you do in non-CP. While your regen may only by 20% higher of a small value - You probably have 20% less cost on dodge roll and break free, with an extra 3k stamina.In both CP and no CP, heavy armor bloospawn fury + damage set sustain very well even by going full damage.
So a perfect example of how CP literally makes you significantly more defensive when you're running almost purely offensive set (Bloodspawn is a mix because we all know you need the ult MOST of the time to secure the kill).All of that because stamina is able to do heavy attacks in fight for unlimited sustain while Magicka will be dead by the time heavy attack end because it take too much time to do.
No way I will bring my Magicka toon who need to invest to sustain in a place where stamina still go almost full damage without any trouble.
My experience in high end BGs and no-CP duels (granted, 3k more stats), is that gap is much closer. Stamina isn't BFing/Dodging your attacks for peanuts anymore. Stamina doesnt take less damage from your burst as they would in CP due to the lack of inherent defenses from CP.
Are you saying that non-CP tips the scale further in favour of DPS/Offensive stam builds?0 -
Nerhesi✭✭✭✭He's not lying. I have a couple NoCP BG mag builds that have less than 1k regen and I sustain just fine. In CP it's almost impossible to run out of resources.
Thank you - and yes, I'm not lying.
Both Sorc and Magcro. If I'm running low regen, I'm putting out some ridiculous DPS, and my sustain still allows me to constantly put that DPS out for almost a minute. It's not a target dummy... I'm not being ignored for a minute.
If I am, then I shouldn't be needing 1 minute to kill anyone either with a build that has low regen because it's packing something like Necro and Spinners (for example).
Edited by Nerhesi on April 16, 2020 5:45PM0 -
Aedaryl✭✭✭✭✭
✭Magsorc already run a Magicka sustain set in CP and you still cannot sustain without dark exchange, Magblade is almost unstainable if you aren't a ganker. In no CP it's even worse.
Correct - because as a MagSorc with a DPS and sustain set, spamming Frags and weaving Force shock - you're DPS monster!. Perhaps you shouldn't have great sustain when you're one of the (if not the) top dog when it comes to bust damage?
The only sustain you have from the above is bloodspawn. So mathematically, you have a massive sustain difference in CP than you do in non-CP. While your regen may only by 20% higher of a small value - You probably have 20% less cost on dodge roll and break free, with an extra 3k stamina.In both CP and no CP, heavy armor bloospawn fury + damage set sustain very well even by going full damage.
So a perfect example of how CP literally makes you significantly more defensive when you're running almost purely offensive set (Bloodspawn is a mix because we all know you need the ult MOST of the time to secure the kill).All of that because stamina is able to do heavy attacks in fight for unlimited sustain while Magicka will be dead by the time heavy attack end because it take too much time to do.
No way I will bring my Magicka toon who need to invest to sustain in a place where stamina still go almost full damage without any trouble.
My experience in high end BGs and no-CP duels (granted, 3k more stats), is that gap is much closer. Stamina isn't BFing/Dodging your attacks for peanuts anymore. Stamina doesnt take less damage from your burst as they would in CP due to the lack of inherent defenses from CP.
Are you saying that non-CP tips the scale further in favour of DPS/Offensive stam builds?
You are not a DPS monster with a sustain set on Magsorc.
Just look Stam and magplar tooltips.
My point is that stamina only have to heavy attack more for getting still going full damage and sustain, while Magicka running already sustain set is forced to invest more into Magicka regen + stamina regen.
This sustain unbalance between mag and Stam (again magplar is an exception because the class has huge regen secondary effects on their skills) has an impact on the rest of your build as a Magicka toon while Stam don't have to lower more damage or defense.
Edited by Aedaryl on April 16, 2020 5:49PM0 -
Solariken✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭EtTuBrutus wrote: »Except magplar, no CP *** hard magicka builds.
The sustain is just too horrible. Both Stam and mag.
A stamboi just need to heavy attack a bit more and their sustain is fine.
Magicka need to invest further into Magicka regen because heavy attack with staff is ***. And you need to invest into Stam sustain as well because break free and dodge cost far too much.
Theze sustain issue kill the possibilities to build outside the box for Magicka.
This is why I never play no CP, most of my mag builds aren't sustainable.
The vast majority of my no-CP builds have been Mag and I totally agree with you. This another great example of the point:
If you're not building in a sustain set... you should be having trouble sustaining. The reality is that in CP enabled settings though, I can survive just fine with Elemental Drain and around 900-gear based sustain.
You're absolutely right about the Stamboi - but until he actually bothers to take those 2 seconds to heavy attach, and not just Weave/Spamm a crapton of damage, he may actually find himself without stamina for a break free or a dodge roll. Right now, in CP, I find my stamina tunes much more optimal because i'm a rolly/polly break-free, bashing, spamming beast. Take a look at those of us doing high end duels... and you'll see non-stop BF/Rolling for stam builds.I would like to imagine a time when my stamblade/plar would actually have to worry about end usage!
What magicka class are you that survives on 900 mag regen and elemental drain? At 1 cast per second you're lying. Or by gear based sustain do you mean on top of base sustain?
He's not lying. I have a couple NoCP BG mag builds that have less than 1k regen and I sustain just fine. In CP it's almost impossible to run out of resources.
I doubt it.
Which classes?
magSorc, magblade, and magplar.
The magplar might not count because I use Prisoner's. Other than that he only has base regen, literally nothing invested in regen stat.0 -
Nerhesi✭✭✭✭magSorc, magblade, and magplar.
The magplar might not count because I use Prisoner's. Other than that he only has base regen, literally nothing invested in regen stat.
Good to see other voices here.
We can always take a look at from an inverse perspective as well. Look at the ease of getting 2k+ magicka regen, with 2k+ spell power and 40k+ magicka. Also look at the equivalent Stambuilds rocking the same.
There is another simple test to do demonstrate the negative impact of CP due to the lack of meaningful choices within CP. Look at the general spend of CP at Champion level 810 - see how much commonality there is?
Again - I'm not against CP. I just dont think it's healthy for any game, to have a meta where your end-game build must have good sustain, healing, mitigation burst dps, pressure dps, and cc! It's a shame especially when you have a game like ESO with so so many end game options for gear/speccs... but really only very very very very few viable ones (more so in CP than non-CP).
0 -
oxygen_thief✭✭✭✭✭
✭Except magplar, no CP *** hard magicka builds.
The sustain is just too horrible. Both Stam and mag.
A stamboi just need to heavy attack a bit more and their sustain is fine.
Magicka need to invest further into Magicka regen because heavy attack with staff is ***. And you need to invest into Stam sustain as well because break free and dodge cost far too much.
Theze sustain issue kill the possibilities to build outside the box for Magicka.
This is why I never play no CP, most of my mag builds aren't sustainable.
i think its much harder to heavy attack with a 2h weapon than with a restoration staff. if you play with snb as magicka char you can at least restore your stamina as a stamina players do. personally i dont invest into magicka regen on my magsorc. i use 1 reduce cost and 1 stam regen glyph for dark conversion. i could drop stam regen but i have a bad habit to dodge when i can block or face damage so i need more stamina.1 -
Aedaryl✭✭✭✭✭
✭magSorc, magblade, and magplar.
The magplar might not count because I use Prisoner's. Other than that he only has base regen, literally nothing invested in regen stat.
Good to see other voices here.
We can always take a look at from an inverse perspective as well. Look at the ease of getting 2k+ magicka regen, with 2k+ spell power and 40k+ magicka. Also look at the equivalent Stambuilds rocking the same.
There is another simple test to do demonstrate the negative impact of CP due to the lack of meaningful choices within CP. Look at the general spend of CP at Champion level 810 - see how much commonality there is?
Again - I'm not against CP. I just dont think it's healthy for any game, to have a meta where your end-game build must have good sustain, healing, mitigation burst dps, pressure dps, and cc! It's a shame especially when you have a game like ESO with so so many end game options for gear/speccs... but really only very very very very few viable ones (more so in CP than non-CP).
Well everything is the core of eso. Stam builds do it better in general.
I don't see how having significantly less sustain allow you to build on more open window instead that building full sustain to not dying OOM ou OOS.
I don't play no CP (for this reason) so I might be wrong but I would like to see these more open Magicka no CP builds. Especially the Sorcs one.
You are playing full damage builds and get your ressources back when the fight is over and ennemies respawn if I got it well?
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Nerhesi✭✭✭✭EtTuBrutus wrote: »What youre saying also doesn't limit build diversity. It allows it.
It limits build diversity by the simple fact that it only narrows the meta to ulta-burst-CC combos.
This is because of the added free defenses/mitigation due to CP, the only way you're going to be killing people is through a DD-Burst combo. CC is less meaningful because you always have enough stam for a BF, etc...
Without the free defense/mitigation/improved healing, we can already see viable builds in non-CP that are nowhere near the same level of effectiveness in CP environments.
Here is another way to put it, albeit in a very crass manner. Sub-optimal or niche builds, are even less effective in CP environments because the CP environment helps the ultra focused builds ignore their weaknesses. Think of it from a mathematical perspective:
You have the build doing 1000 dps and 700 healing per second.
The other guy has that 800 dps and 800 healing per second.
You deserve to win most of the time unless RNG or whatever gets in the way -- which should be rare enough.
Now enter CP:
You both get a 20% bonus to damage, to healing, and to mitigation.
The disparity is now increased through no addition of skill, or gear, or meaningful options. You've simply made it less enjoyable/attractive for someone to play that niche counter-meta build or theme build or whatever - because it reeaaaallly is sub optimal.
It's like forcing everyone to play a self-sustaining, healing, mitigating, burst-CC class. And CP is doubling down on that.
#BuildDiversity - lol2 -
daemonor✭✭✭✭Can you stop. Posting. About. Heavy. Armor. Meta. No one in their right mind uses heavy armor cause its trash, you get a laughable resistance bonus and 8% healing. No 15% free weapon damage, no cheaper sprint, no cheaper dodge roll. It's not heavy meta, its medium armor meta. Medium armor was crap for a long time and now it has it's time to shine. Fury jewelery chest+legs, bloodspawn, nma is the meta. Spriggans, essence thief is the meta. Either morph of shuffle is the meta.
Everyone who keeps crying about hurdur 30k resistance heavy armor meta is a salty mag player who never tried stamina. Go on youtube, check harrowstorm stam pvp builds. Which one of them have 30k resistances? How many of them stack 2 medium damage sets and bloodspawn? Do the math, don't use your imagination and sentiments.3 -
Xologamer✭✭✭✭Good morning!
2) 3k extra primary stats - Just a freebie safety net for dodge rolling, breakfree, and resources.
its not dlat 3k its 20% (as fasr as i know)
im the think that cp makes even more build viable e.g. u could build a build whic hdescrese the healing from ur opponent so muc hthat he will die over time throw the cp passive that healing debuff get buffed... and this was jsut 1 example... the fact that u get less dmg than no cp i cant relate- in cp are so many player dying from less than 4hits never so something like that in no cp (and i played long no cp before i swichted)0 -
katorga✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I worked to get the CP, I'd like to use them. Regardless of how they work or the effects are calculated, everyone has access to the exact same CP options and effects so it is 100% balanced. It is more balanced than race/class differences.
NoCP stacks balance in favor of stamina.2 -
mav1234✭✭✭✭✭Nord_Raseri wrote: »Because of cp, my pve nord stamsorc dps IS viable. Not optimal, but viable. So I'd say that "CP=Less viable builds" is absolutely wrong.
nord is a great choice as a stam or mag dps in no-cp pvp precisely because no-cp has so many tradeoffs. getting tht huge a resist buff helps a ton in no cp.
cp definitely limits the meta. no-cp forces players to account for sustain in their builds in ways that cp builds do not need to.3 -
Nerhesi✭✭✭✭Good morning!
2) 3k extra primary stats - Just a freebie safety net for dodge rolling, breakfree, and resources.
its not dlat 3k its 20% (as fasr as i know)
im the think that cp makes even more build viable e.g. u could build a build whic hdescrese the healing from ur opponent so muc hthat he will die over time throw the cp passive that healing debuff get buffed... and this was jsut 1 example... the fact that u get less dmg than no cp i cant relate- in cp are so many player dying from less than 4hits never so something like that in no cp (and i played long no cp before i swichted)
Defense is multiplied after offence. So CP makes you more tanky unless you purposely avoid putting any points into defensive CPs. There are also CP benefits that dont have counters in offensive CP - such as reduced cost to roll dodge, break-free, etc...
If you want to run a quick test on the damage it is very very simple:
Duel someone who is high CP just like yourself. Both of you try some DD and dots on each other.
Both of you reset your CPs and dont put them in anything. Try again with the same DDs and dots.
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Nerhesi✭✭✭✭Nord_Raseri wrote: »Because of cp, my pve nord stamsorc dps IS viable. Not optimal, but viable. So I'd say that "CP=Less viable builds" is absolutely wrong.
nord is a great choice as a stam or mag dps in no-cp pvp precisely because no-cp has so many tradeoffs. getting tht huge a resist buff helps a ton in no cp.
cp definitely limits the meta. no-cp forces players to account for sustain in their builds in ways that cp builds do not need to.
This is exactly what I'm seeing - and therefore what I agree with.
You want to build super-hot burst DPS, in no-CP, you will definitely feel the impact of your choice due less free defense, mitigation and sustain. But just as well, you will hit your targets harder because they're not getting free defense, sustain, mitigation etc etc0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭From what I have read of OP's comments they are saying that defensive CP is calculated before offensive CP so this makes us tankier which OP is also saying CP makes us less viable.
Since being tankier would increase our survival it seems that is not an issue with being viable. Granted, I am not saying OP is right or wrong but that their logic seems flawed.
Further, everyone has the same CP so the "viability" issue is equal though we know some players do not spend their CP wisely as Zos has told us this much. I will say that CP makes us more specialized but that would mean our builds would be more viable for how we make them.1 -
Nord_Raseri✭✭✭✭✭
✭Nord_Raseri wrote: »Because of cp, my pve nord stamsorc dps IS viable. Not optimal, but viable. So I'd say that "CP=Less viable builds" is absolutely wrong.
I think this proves my point - also Im talking about PvP. But:
A build that is nearly completely unsupported - becomes viable through CP. This is actually a very good example of why my point is correct. You provided a great example (granted PVE) of how CP literally shores up the weakness.
Meanwhile, what it is doing to PvP End game, is allowing you survive well with builds that are hyper damage focused, without penalising you because it still lets you break free, dodge roll, reduce damage and so on.
Lol, you lost me at "let's you break free". Break free? In Cyrodiil? We're playing different games. Also, your OP says cp equals less viable build, I said it makes more, and that proves your point?! I'm gone.Veit ég aðég hékk vindga meiði á nætr allar níu, geiri undaðr og gefinn Oðni, sjálfr sjálfum mér, á þeim meiði er manngi veit hvers hann af rótum rennr.0 -
Nerhesi✭✭✭✭Nord_Raseri wrote: »Break free? In Cyrodiil? We're playing different games.
I'm sorry you got lost - Ill explain in hopefully simpler, clearer terms.
You get more break frees and dodge rolls with CP than you do without. This translates into more mitigation/defense than in no CP. This is not opinion - this is simple fact.Nord_Raseri wrote: »Also, your OP says cp equals less viable build, I said it makes more, and that proves your point?! I'm gone
No reason to be sensational. I think it's clear why there are less viable builds and people have provided actual simple numbers as to why this is the case. Simply put, CP makes it so you get punished less for your choices (because it gives more defense than offense - math, not opinion). That results in a narrower meta because you basically have CP providing you a crutch for builds that would normally have a glaring weakness.
The other clear indication of this is how cookie cutter 80-90% of the CP expenditures are, and how you have no real choice to make between trees (because they all have different points).
I understand some of you may feel otherwise - but there really isnt argument to be had here. T1