Mass agro skill for tank s ?

worrallj · April 2020

Nope don't bring that old school WoW philosophy to my ESO. Taunting is a more precision tool in ESO rather than a "automatically grab everything in sight." Makes tank have to focus more on making sure they've got the high priority targets, and makes the rest of the party spend a little bandwidth looking out for themselves.

I think an aoe taunt would make dungeons way less dynamic and more boring.

CMDR_Un1k0rn · April 2020

Major_Lag wrote: »

Wlnamp wrote: »

Coppes wrote: »

Wlnamp wrote: »

I propose adding mas agro skill for tanks to the shields section.
with two enchantments - one for max HP, the second for stamina / mana, whichever is greater.
+ 5 times increase the number of threats caused by damage under the role of "tank"

Unlike most MMOs, I don’t think ESO has a complex threat generation equation.

you need to try playing for a healer with random ones to see how bad it is

bad is a very soft word in this context.

If you are complaining that you keep running into bad tanks when you are playing as a healer - congratulations, you have experienced one of countless many "fake tanks" in ESO.

This is not a "lack of AoE taunt" problem, it's a "I don't want to wait in the huge DPS queue" problem.
No amount of taunt skills, or even AoE taunts, will help with that - because those players never intended to tank anything in the first place.

Usually, but not always, those players also do a very bad job at dealing damage, die very easily, and blame the healer or the DPS. Just kick that trash from the group.

This is why I only pug as a real tank.

Most groups I get are happy about this alone. And it means I get monster sets so frequently it's stupid.

Mr_Walker · April 2020

Major_Lag wrote: »

Wlnamp wrote: »

Major_Lag wrote: »

Your suggestion is so poorly worded that I have a hard time deciphering what it is that you actually want.

But if by "mass aggro" you mean an AoE taunt effect, then this will not happen - ZOS has previously stated that their design intent for tanks runs contrary to the existence of AoE taunts in general, and that this is not a direction they intend to take.

that is, the presence of the role "tank" is normal, and the lack of a mass taunt tank is also normal.
But local tanks still manage to mass aggro through aoe skills

If you mean grabbing the "initial aggro" from enemies, then yes. You can use any damaging AoE ability to do that. For example wall of elements, or caltrops.

But unless you individually taunt the enemies ASAP, they will quickly switch aggro to the DDs or healer.
This is intended - a tank is meant to use their taunt(s) to prioritize the most dangerous enemies, and not indiscriminately taunt everything in the room.

In any competent group, the DDs and healer can take the aggro from the less dangerous trashmobs without dying. So don't worry about taunting ALL of the trash.

The problem I'm having these days is there can be so much "flash" that I'm lucky if I can see the boss sometimes.

newtinmpls · April 2020

Wlnamp wrote: »

Major_Lag wrote: »

just pull them into a pile

how ?

"Pull" in this case is a specific type of action; you use an ability that grabs an enemy and drags him/her closer to you. DKs have chains, Fighter's guild has the "silver leash" morph of that crossbow ability, and I think there is also a monster helm (Mephala? Not sure) where if you are blocking a ranged attack, you spin a web and drag them to you.

Smart DPSs will pile on AoE attacks where the biggest pile of mobs are - and a good tank does the best they can to create such a mob/pile.

Start with a distance AoE as you rush forward - first 'hit' on anyone at least momentarily grabs their attention and aggro. Then use whatever kind of lockdown/taunts you have, the idea is to

1-get their attention
2-get them close to you
3-hold them there long enough for the DPSs to melt them (taunt and/or lockdown)

In a "no boss" situation, there's been plenty of times where I'm just slowly turning in place doing the "grab & pull, then taunt" to clear the room by bringing them to me, where the DPSs are just killing the heck out of them.

Dusk_Coven · April 2020

It's definitely different from other games so coming from those you would need to re-learn, not having AOE taunt.
BUT unlike many other games, adds are not necessarily lethal to DPS or Healers very quickly.
DPS who can't handle adds shouldn't pull first.

That said, I've aggroed a bunch of adds by just hitting one, and some of them immediately run far away to attack an idle group member nowhere near the adds...

Varana · April 2020

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

That said, I've aggroed a bunch of adds by just hitting one, and some of them immediately run far away to attack an idle group member nowhere near the adds...

That is normal behaviour: You didn't aggro them, you activated them. You only aggroed the one you hit. No ESO character is ugly enough to taunt enemies just by their looks.

I really recommend reading the post VaranisArano linked above, and the discussion following it.

Jeremy · April 2020

Artanisul wrote: »

I used the "gap closer" to describe the fastest way a tank can possibly enter the fray. I have 10 skill slots, all I have to do is minor self healing and taunt. pointing at a gap closer and claiming its a learn to play issue is laughable....

My Aoe is an imob. It draws very little attention compared to the storm the DPS is capable of. This game is not a first come first serve agro. The first one to damage the targets is not the only one to be attacked. We wouldnt need a taunt if that was the case.

My stamina tank also is not able to use magic to taunt the enmies. I never could sustain that with the other buffs I must put up. Puncture is the name of that game....inner fire is for the wackos that tank with a staff.

I guess I'm a wacko.

Ice Staves are actually pretty good at tanking now with all the changes. In my opinion. I've tanked all the Vet DLC dungeons with one except for Harrowstorm I believe. So they can definitely work.

Scarkii · April 2020

if you guys really want a aoe taunt run tormentor set with a gap closer it will taunt everything nearby(i think) havent used it myself since i never had a issue with stacking everything

Jim_Pipp · April 2020

Scarkii wrote: »

if you guys really want a aoe taunt run tormentor set with a gap closer it will taunt everything nearby(i think) havent used it myself since i never had a issue with stacking everything

Tormentor set only applies to the initial damage, not the AoE DoT's of charge abilities like stampede or lotus fan - so it is still a single target taunt that requires a gap closer and costs a gear set...

However, there is a rumour that it does set up an AoE taunt on the Templar explosive charge ability. I will check it today... Unfortunately Templars don't have the major resistance debuffs, so they will still have to use puncture, so not much of an advantage.

alainjbrennanb16_ESO · April 2020

the real issue is not letting the tank go first aoe damage can act as a taunt, tank putting down calatrops to slow them, also other cc's before dd's rush in

Artanisul · April 2020

This was....painful....

I was incredibly mistaken. Totally wrong. Sadly, and this is the painful part, smugly arrogant that I understood how this all works because " I have tanked to hell and back for 20 years!"

Tanking/agro works so different in this game. Thank you to VaranisArano for that link. It explains so much. Thank you to all of you who patiently listened to my wrongness and politely corrected me.

The innerFire morph was a reality check that I was NOT doing my homework and was thinking I already knew all I needed.
Sheesh what a fool I feel.

Mr_Walker · April 2020

Yes, and no. If it were to be in game it should be an undaunted ulti. Undaunted needs an ulti. Wouldn't be a bad "hail mary" play.

Mettaricana · April 2020

Im all for maybe a conal aoe taunt like the range of brawler, or the necro scythe just taunt all enemies in a cone infront of player. Its make managing adds much easier rather than casting puncture 20 times not even a point of skill good tank bad tank just a flat out quality of life and role addition. Can't honestly expect anyone to say the most fun they had was trying to poke each axe in vet AA or banished cells 2 daedroths was the most fun they ever had..

Jim_Pipp · April 2020

Jim_Pipp wrote: »

Scarkii wrote: »

if you guys really want a aoe taunt run tormentor set with a gap closer it will taunt everything nearby(i think) havent used it myself since i never had a issue with stacking everything

However, there is a rumour that it does set up an AoE taunt on the Templar explosive charge ability. I will check it today... Unfortunately Templars don't have the major resistance debuffs, so they will still have to use puncture, so not much of an advantage.

UPDATE - there 100% is an AoE taunt, by using the Tormenter set and the Templar explosive charge ability. Tested and confirmed on groups of at least 6 mobs.

Is it useful? Probably not, except in a co-ordinated group.

Templar tank charges in, and a necromancer covers the area in unnerving boneyard, applying major breech AND a synergy for Alkosh set... That's a really good start to a fight.

I thought this would just be a gimmicky mechanic to get an AoE taunt on a class that is a questionable tank, but I can see some powerful synergies in a co-ordinated group...

Major_Lag · April 2020

Artanisul wrote: »

My stamina tank also is not able to use magic to taunt the enmies. I never could sustain that with the other buffs I must put up. Puncture is the name of that game....inner fire is for the wackos that tank with a staff.

There is no such thing as a "stamina tank" or "magicka tank" in ESO:

A typical tank build for veteran content will have a roughly equal stamina and magicka pool - some players even like to use a setup where they have more stamina on frontbar and more magicka on backbar, so that they can choose which resource to restore from orbs/shards.

Typical numbers would be on the order of 15k stamina and magicka and >35k health, although there is considerable variation depending on the class and the content being tanked.

Most tanks use 1H+S frontbar, because it is in many ways superior to frost staff: 1H+S taunt is not as clunky as frost heavy, it also debuffs target, Heroic Slash for ulti generation, better mobility while blocking... the list goes on.
But frost staff is perfectly viable for a lot of content, especially if you understand and build around its limitations.

But regardless of the preferred weapon type(s), a good tank will use both magicka and stamina costing abilities, to make the best possible use of their limited resource recoveries - especially since blocking stops the recovery of one resource
Because of that, on a 1H+S tank you will want to build forconsiderably higher magicka recovery than stamina recovery, and use a lot of abilities which cost magicka.

Wlnamp · April 2020

ok, I agree to a simple increase a THREAT from a player with the role of a tank 5 times from any outgoing damage).

Royaji · April 2020

Wlnamp wrote: »

ok, I agree to a simple increase a THREAT from a player with the role of a tank 5 times from any outgoing damage).

But... there is no "threat" in ESO. Like, at all.

Wlnamp · April 2020

if no threat why mobs are re aggro on dps ?

Thokri · April 2020

Of course there is threat as it part of npc AI to target players but unlike on for example wow there is no increased threat for tanks so it is purely based on damage you do or time of exposure.
ESO has no built-in increase for specific role as most have so it could be interpret as "no threat"

Threat is a bit wrong term in case of ESO, more correct would be targeting parameters I guess, but is used because anyone not living in barrel and at least played some active combat videogames understand it.

Anyway, how many of these "I want wow clone"-threads are you going to make?

Wlnamp · April 2020

Thokri wrote: »

Of course there is threat as it part of npc AI to target players but unlike on for example wow there is no increased threat for tanks so it is purely based on damage you do or time of exposure.
ESO has no built-in increase for specific role as most have so it could be interpret as "no threat"

Anyway, how many of these "I want wow clone"-threads are you going to make?

You got access to api adons. You do not mind that there is the same language on which the interface is written as in вов. You are not confused that 90% of adons are copied from other games. Why do not you trumpet about it at every step?
Do you know why ? because convenience doesn’t belong to any particular game

why don’t you start screaming that adons are in wow and other games, we don’t need adons ?. We do not need to know how many DPS we have so that there is no one to blame for the wipe ?

Mettaricana · April 2020

Wlnamp wrote: »

if no threat why mobs are re aggro on dps ?

Adds and bosses are just adhd they pick targets at random and even sporadically will target a dude who just popped up from a res or pick a fight with a non aggro generating pet like a warden bear or twilight

VaranisArano · April 2020

Wlnamp wrote: »

if no threat why mobs are re aggro on dps ?

There is no threat in the way you are asking for. Without taunting, no one player generates any more threat than another. Without a taunt, Aggro works purely off of who hit the target last with damage or healing, after a set time. Since the DDs and Healer are usually reapplying AOE effects on a constant basis, they tend to pick up mob aggro when it resets after that time. The same thing can be seen when there's a fake tank - often the healer picks up boss aggro because they have to heal-spam.

If you didn't read this earlier, you should: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/391895/a-guide-to-aggro/p1

This is working as intended, because ZOS didn't design dungeons for tanks to be able to hold aggro on everything indefinitely, whether via "threat" or reapplying taunts. They intended for DDs and healers to have to take some hits from both mobs and bosses. This is readily apparent in the lack of a mass taunt, lack of role-based "threat", and the presence of a large number of boss mechanics that specifically target players other than the tank.

ZOS is extremely unlikely to change how aggro works to give the tank role more passive threat. If they did, they would have to rework dungeons entirely to keep them interesting - for one thing, any mob the tank didn't pick up would probably become much more dangerous to the other party members. But let's be realistic here - what's the chance that ZOS is going to completely overhaul all the group content in ESO?

Wlnamp · April 2020

Thokri wrote: »

Wlnamp wrote: »

text

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We absolutely need clear signs of who is good and who is bad in order to have good progress on harder difficulty.

***. Previously, you could not determine who is good and who is bad, who has blue blood and who has red, and they played like that.

VaranisArano · April 2020

Wlnamp wrote: »

Thokri wrote: »

Wlnamp wrote: »

text

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We absolutely need clear signs of who is good and who is bad in order to have good progress on harder difficulty.

***. Previously, you could not determine who is good and who is bad, who has blue blood and who has red, and they played like that.

On Console, you have to rely on paying attention to how players are doing during the fights.

On PC, while you can often tell who's struggling, we've got Combat Metrics and ESO Logs to help with progression.

I'm not sure what this all has to do with asking for an AOE taunt, though, except as sort of an aside about how its okay to ask for additional functionality. In which case I'm just going to point out that there's a big difference between the API add-ons that build on the functions the game devs allow us to access and asking the Devs to fundamentally rework how they intended aggro and group content to work in ESO. An AOE taunt isn't something additional that just changes the UI. Its a huge change in group content gameplay.

Olupajmibanan · April 2020

Explosive Charge + Tormentor set is what you are asking for.