GMs getting social banned for no reason

BansheeVT · April 2020

Hey all,
apparently 2 or even more GMs incl. me got social banned. What we did? Nothing. Except sending mails to our guildmembers.

There are Addons like Shissu or Godsend for it, so we can send important mails to all members without spending 2 hours with sending it to each member one by one. I used to do this to remind about 50-100 people on fridays that they haven't reached the weekly minimum sales requirement yet and 95% of the members are thankful for these reminders. I also do it to announce important changes or give updates on something all guild members should be aware of like requirements or events.

On Monday I did this again, informed my guild members and the members of the guild where I am an officer about important changes. Played a bit after it, played a bit on tuesday and suddenly I can't access any guildstore. I never even heard about what happens if you get a ban so my first idea was that the traders are bugged.. nope. After some experiementing with my friends I noticed I can't access any store nor guildbank, I can't whisper, send messages to groupchat, trade with people or mail them. As a GM/officer that's about 95% of my activites in ESO.

And the best part, no info that I got banned, why or how long. Only after talking to another GM today I found out that it had to be the guildmails. I understand that there might be systems who auto-ban people for sending a huge amount of mails and even though I'm pretty sure I did the mails to approx. 1000 people before I understand that it might have looked like spam. I also understand that the support is getting flooded with tickets right now. But please.. the other GM, me and possibly others are waiting for responses from support for at least 2 to 3 days now. There was no vicious intent in what we did, we just sent guild info to 2 guilds we are affiliated with instead of 1 like we usually do. This ban for sending mails has been known for so long and there's still no way to prevent that or at least receive help in lets say 24 hours?

I can't do anything for my guild members now. I can't respond to the mails with questions I receive from them, even put myself in offline mode so I don't receive any whispers that I have no way of answering, I can't give them stuff from guildbank, I can't place any bids, I can't put my gold in guildbank to help out with my affiliated guilds bids, I can't make any sales to get gold for our bids and so on.

Really makes me lose the fun in ESO when I can't do anything for 2+ days and don't even know when this will end.
Hope no other GMs got affected by this.

daemonios · April 2020

Alarmist title is alarmist. I understand it may have been unintended, but you're not banned as such. You can still log in. What has become known as "social ban" is a whole different beast.

As to your problem, I'd suggest sending a ticket and following up with CS until it's solved. I don't think other players or community reps/forum mods can do much about it.

BansheeVT · April 2020

Changed title to social banned

But like I said, I can't do 95% of the activities I usually do, no reason for me to log in.
I already sent a ticket, also updated it and still nothing after 2 days, same for other GM. Just wanted to get this out here to make everyone aware that this stuff still exists and that it sucks.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO · April 2020

BansheeVT wrote: »

Hey all,
apparently 2 or even more GMs incl. me got social banned. What we did? Nothing. Except sending mails to our guildmembers.

There are Addons like Shissu or Godsend for it, so we can send important mails to all members without spending 2 hours with sending it to each member one by one. I used to do this to remind about 50-100 people on fridays that they haven't reached the weekly minimum sales requirement yet and 95% of the members are thankful for these reminders. I also do it to announce important changes or give updates on something all guild members should be aware of like requirements or events.

On Monday I did this again, informed my guild members and the members of the guild where I am an officer about important changes. Played a bit after it, played a bit on tuesday and suddenly I can't access any guildstore. I never even heard about what happens if you get a ban so my first idea was that the traders are bugged.. nope. After some experiementing with my friends I noticed I can't access any store nor guildbank, I can't whisper, send messages to groupchat, trade with people or mail them. As a GM/officer that's about 95% of my activites in ESO.

And the best part, no info that I got banned, why or how long. Only after talking to another GM today I found out that it had to be the guildmails. I understand that there might be systems who auto-ban people for sending a huge amount of mails and even though I'm pretty sure I did the mails to approx. 1000 people before I understand that it might have looked like spam. I also understand that the support is getting flooded with tickets right now. But please.. the other GM, me and possibly others are waiting for responses from support for at least 2 to 3 days now. There was no vicious intent in what we did, we just sent guild info to 2 guilds we are affiliated with instead of 1 like we usually do. This ban for sending mails has been known for so long and there's still no way to prevent that or at least receive help in lets say 24 hours?

I can't do anything for my guild members now. I can't respond to the mails with questions I receive from them, even put myself in offline mode so I don't receive any whispers that I have no way of answering, I can't give them stuff from guildbank, I can't place any bids, I can't put my gold in guildbank to help out with my affiliated guilds bids, I can't make any sales to get gold for our bids and so on.

Really makes me lose the fun in ESO when I can't do anything for 2+ days and don't even know when this will end.
Hope no other GMs got affected by this.

You should contact support on the portal and keep replying to the automated emails until you get to a person.
The difficulty is that your activity (such as mass mailing etc..) is also very similar to bot / goldseller activity as such there are likely things which trigger an automated ban.

Its also generally the same with mass reporting.

Lysette · April 2020

I guess you will have to wait until support gets back to you. Meanwhile think about other ways to inform your members, like using the message of the day or eventually create a discord for your guild or something outside of the game itself. Otherwise it is very likely this will happen to you again.

BansheeVT · April 2020

Yes, I know, thank you @Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO and @Lysette
After my first very detailed report I got a standard message about how to set myself on online cause other players can't whisper me when offline, answered to that, explained everything again and still waiting just like the other GM afaik

I also understand that it looks similar to a bot and I don't blame ZOS for having these systems to detect it but it sucks that I'm not able to do anything and that there's no "Hey you got banned for mass mailing for 72 hours" kinda thing or a person in support 24 hours after saying no, that isn't my issue, please help me.

Just hoping to make other GMs aware that they shouldn't mass mail from their main account and hoping that someone like @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_RachelM can help, prioritize or at least give info about how long I will have to deal with this

We also have a discord but I won't reach every member with this and we use the MotD for stuff like Events etc, no way we can also fit all other important changes there and that people will read it ^^ I will probably never use my main account again to send more than 500 messages so yes I hope it doesn't happen again

Iluvrien · April 2020

BansheeVT wrote: »

I used to do this to remind about 50-100 people on fridays that they haven't reached the weekly minimum sales requirement yet and 95% of the members are thankful for these reminders. I also do it to announce important changes or give updates on something all guild members should be aware of like requirements or events.

I, for one, definitely appreciate the mails. Usually, because it has been a slow week and I need to remember to donate.

Thanks again for all your hard work, @BansheeVT! I wouldn't want to leave VT for all of the Mazte in Morrowind.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO · April 2020

BansheeVT wrote: »

Yes, I know, thank you @Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO and @Lysette
After my first very detailed report I got a standard message about how to set myself on online cause other players can't whisper me when offline, answered to that, explained everything again and still waiting just like the other GM afaik

I also understand that it looks similar to a bot and I don't blame ZOS for having these systems to detect it but it sucks that I'm not able to do anything and that there's no "Hey you got banned for mass mailing for 72 hours" kinda thing or a person in support 24 hours after saying no, that isn't my issue, please help me.

Just hoping to make other GMs aware that they shouldn't mass mail from their main account and hoping that someone like @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_RachelM can help, prioritize or at least give info about how long I will have to deal with this

We also have a discord but I won't reach every member with this and we use the MotD for stuff like Events etc, no way we can also fit all other important changes there and that people will read it ^^ I will probably never use my main account again to send more than 500 messages so yes I hope it doesn't happen again

@BansheeVT The one thing i've learned with ESO support is that you have to treat them like they have absolutely no understanding of the game. Explain everything very slowly like you would to a child.

For example i once asked them to move my character out of cyrodiil without logging in because I didn't want to get faction locked (when there was a bug where it would auto faction lock you when you logged in). (a simple request i thought).

It took 5 back and forth mails, about how faction locks were intended, I could raise a forum post etc.. how they cannot fix a character if it has been locked (the thing i was trying to avoid) etc etc.. with me finally stating "Character stuck, move safe area please" and then they finally did it...

wenchmore420b14_ESO · April 2020

BansheeVT wrote: »

Changed title to social banned
But like I said, I can't do 95% of the activities I usually do, no reason for me to log in.
I already sent a ticket, also updated it and still nothing after 2 days, same for other GM. Just wanted to get this out here to make everyone aware that this stuff still exists and that it sucks.

Sorry to hear this happened to you, but it isn't a new thing as it has happened for years.
There is a auto-flag feature that reacts to numerous mails sent out very fast. I use Godsend and in the settings is a time setting which default is, iirc, 1 sec. If you set this at 3 or 4 sec between mails it will , or did, by pass the auto flag.
Good luck working this out and hope this helps.
Huzzah!

BansheeVT · April 2020

You're too sweet @Iluvrien ! Thank you

And thanks again @Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO ^^ tried to do that after the standard message. But 5 back and forth mails is indeed a bit too much for a request that can then get solved by saying char stuck

BansheeVT · April 2020

wenchmore420b14_ESO wrote: »

I use Godsend and in the settings is a time setting which default is, iirc, 1 sec. If you set this at 3 or 4 sec between mails it will , or did, by pass the auto flag.
Good luck working this out and hope this helps.
Huzzah!

That helps indeed! Thank you, I will make sure to change that setting next time when I have to do it again.. and do it from my second account, just in case ^^

Reverb · April 2020

When a trade GM gets a social ban it can be devastating to guild operations, and may even lead to not having a trader the following week if no one else has been empowered to bid (because the GM won’t be able to adjust ranks and give anyone else the ability to bid).

But it’s not for no reason, and I suspect you know that. The social ban is for spamming, which is something GMs and Officers have been dealing with since launch. The addons increase the likelihood of getting a social ban because net make it easier to send mass communication and get caught in the anti spam/anti bot/anti gold seller filters.

These addons used to have warnings about this risk, and I would hope they still do. Those of us who have faced this situation in the past know to limit the number of mails sent In each batch (I personally do 25 at a time) and wait a minute or two between batches.

Good luck

Ri_Khan · April 2020

So there's an add-on that can get you auto-banned?! WTF?!

Dosuul · April 2020

Sure it isn't the current server lag / situation?

Did you get a message (mail / error / system message) or why do you think you are banned?

Jaensn · April 2020

Since I learned that this is a thing, I got a second (base game) account, just to send guild newsletters. I suggest you do the same (for less than 10 bucks) and don't worry about getting banned anymore. Given what work usually got done on a GM account (e.g. all set stations in the guild hall, etc.) a ban would be catostrophic.

daemonios · April 2020

Ri_Khan wrote: »

So there's an add-on that can get you auto-banned?! WTF?!

Nothing new, these stories crop up from time to time. Clown store is unaffected, though, so we're good.

BansheeVT · April 2020

To clarify this @Ri_Khan: social banned, not banned
And yes Mail Addons like Godsend can get you banned

There was no notification about getting social banned but I noticed it through this

BansheeVT wrote: »

Hey all,
After some experiementing with my friends I noticed I can't access any store nor guildbank, I can't whisper, send messages to groupchat, trade with people or mail them. As a GM/officer that's about 95% of my activites in ESO."

Support just came back to me btw

just to also stress the good things that happen
Only question is now if they will also get back to my friend with the ticket 200413-003129 who has been waiting for 1 day more than me

xaraan · April 2020

I agree that zos should figure out some ways to support the fact they created a game where you can create a 500 person guild. Whether it's building those tools into the game or figuring out a way their automated system doesn't flag someone using those add-ons (even if they aren't official items).

So, I would add two things: maybe creating groups to send out mails to, like breaking your guild into 3-4 batches so you might have to send the same mail, but only a few times and it will knock the number of recipients down by 25%. But not sure how many create a flag in the system, so might need to experiment with the numbers.

And second is that if you put in a ticket in game, don't rely on that. The best responses I've gotten are putting in a help ticket through the website. I've put in dozens of in game help tickets that show still open and unanswered, but when using the site, get fast responses. (Again, I think it's something wacky about their automated system that organizing in game tickets poorly).

JN_Slevin · April 2020

Why is there no other option to write the guildees? We only have the mails, and the message of the day which noone reads...

It cant be good for the server to this with the help of add-ons.

They just shoot again way off target, with those bans.

idk · April 2020

BansheeVT wrote: »

Hey all,
apparently 2 or even more GMs incl. me got social banned. What we did? Nothing. Except sending mails to our guildmembers.

You did do something and event state what you did so you clearly understand why the social bans occurred.

Granted, Zos needs to add a means for a guild leader to send out letters to their guild in manners that the addons currently allow but not have a chance to bring about a social ban. Until then the MOTD is the best means to avoid a social ban and it is probably what Zos intended for communicating to the guild as a whole. Ok, not probably, it is.

Regardless, the risk is up to the user when they use those addons. Considering there are versions of both that have not been updated since 2018 one should expect get banned for using an addon that has not been updated since Zos changed the frequency addons can poll the servers.

The link below is a Shissu that was updated last month so it probably takes into account the changes Zos made to the frequency we can poll the servers. However, still use it at your own risk because the social ban OP refers to is legitimate.

https://www.esoui.com/downloads/info2440-ShissuGuildToolsDragonholdPatchV1.4.4.html

spartaxoxo · April 2020

Please understand that support will be replying much more slowly because of covid-19 on pretty much any website.

idk · April 2020

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Please understand that support will be replying much more slowly because of covid-19 on pretty much any website.

This is very true. If the social ban is only 3 days then support will probably not reply before then.

MrGhosty · April 2020

Seems to me that you could easily move over a lot of information sending out of the game via discord and require members use it. It also provides a much more stable environment to communicating via chat and has the added benefit of also supporting voice channels. I don't know many folks who don't already use discords for other stuff so they will most likely already have it open.

Yes we should have gotten better guild management controls, but at this point I don't see many resources being put towards it until bigger issues are resolved. Sorry to hear about your troubles though, it's never fun to suffer through bans of any kind.

JN_Slevin · April 2020

MrGhosty wrote: »

Seems to me that you could easily move over a lot of information sending out of the game via discord and require members use it. It also provides a much more stable environment to communicating via chat and has the added benefit of also supporting voice channels. I don't know many folks who don't already use discords for other stuff so they will most likely already have it open.

Yes we should have gotten better guild management controls, but at this point I don't see many resources being put towards it until bigger issues are resolved. Sorry to hear about your troubles though, it's never fun to suffer through bans of any kind.

The only problems with this is that some members dont want to use discord. You are right if everyone would be on discord that would be ideal. We can't expect people to use a third party software to use our guild...

idk · April 2020

Cani wrote: »

MrGhosty wrote: »

Seems to me that you could easily move over a lot of information sending out of the game via discord and require members use it. It also provides a much more stable environment to communicating via chat and has the added benefit of also supporting voice channels. I don't know many folks who don't already use discords for other stuff so they will most likely already have it open.

Yes we should have gotten better guild management controls, but at this point I don't see many resources being put towards it until bigger issues are resolved. Sorry to hear about your troubles though, it's never fun to suffer through bans of any kind.

The only problems with this is that some members dont want to use discord. You are right if everyone would be on discord that would be ideal. We can't expect people to use a third party software to use our guild...

again, MOTD which by name is a daily message. Ofc, if they do not want to read the MOTD then they probably will not read the letter.

Oh, and if they do not want to be on Discord, are they really interested in what the guild is doing. Discord is not intrusive as long as you manage notification, which is easy to do.

martinhpb16_ESO · April 2020

idk wrote: »

frequency we can poll the servers. However, still use it at your own risk because the social ban OP refers to is legitimate.

https://www.esoui.com/downloads/info2440-ShissuGuildToolsDragonholdPatchV1.4.4.html

Legitimate in what way?

Sending an occasional mail to the entire guild is completely legit especially for a trade guild. I have done it as a trade guild GM for 7 years.

There is limited space in MOD and any guild worth it's salt is using this to explain the guild TOC.

There are plenty of legit reasons why a GM may use ingame mail as a tool for communicating with the guild. Not every member uses or joins discord, but every member logging in uses mail.

- changing guild circumstances
- events and competitions
- well wishes
- reminders

Guild mail is standard in most MMOs and handing out social bans for legit addons is reckless incompetence.

JN_Slevin · April 2020

idk wrote: »

Cani wrote: »

MrGhosty wrote: »

Seems to me that you could easily move over a lot of information sending out of the game via discord and require members use it. It also provides a much more stable environment to communicating via chat and has the added benefit of also supporting voice channels. I don't know many folks who don't already use discords for other stuff so they will most likely already have it open.

Yes we should have gotten better guild management controls, but at this point I don't see many resources being put towards it until bigger issues are resolved. Sorry to hear about your troubles though, it's never fun to suffer through bans of any kind.

The only problems with this is that some members dont want to use discord. You are right if everyone would be on discord that would be ideal. We can't expect people to use a third party software to use our guild...

again, MOTD which by name is a daily message. Ofc, if they do not want to read the MOTD then they probably will not read the letter.

Oh, and if they do not want to be on Discord, are they really interested in what the guild is doing. Discord is not intrusive as long as you manage notification, which is easy to do.

Yeah, that'd be cool if we had enough space in the "about us" section to actually write rules and stuff in there, so the MotD doesnt need to be an "info" section...

Also you cant specifically write certain people. With mails you can. And its always beneficial to write a person specifically instead of "throwing it out there"!

BansheeVT · April 2020

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

idk wrote: »

frequency we can poll the servers. However, still use it at your own risk because the social ban OP refers to is legitimate.

https://www.esoui.com/downloads/info2440-ShissuGuildToolsDragonholdPatchV1.4.4.html

Legitimate in what way?

Sending an occasional mail to the entire guild is completely legit especially for a trade guild. I have done it as a trade guild GM for 7 years.

(...)

Guild mail is standard in most MMOs and handing out social bans for legit addons is reckless incompetence.

I wouldn't call it reckless incompetence but overall I agree and that's why I said I did nothing to deserve the ban. I understand the systems that are behind it and why I got banned in the first place but I wish there was a way for the system to detect if a ban is the right decision there or if it's just a GM like me trying to inform his members

martinhpb16_ESO · April 2020

BansheeVT wrote: »

I wouldn't call it reckless incompetence but overall I agree and that's why I said I did nothing to deserve the ban. I understand the systems that are behind it and why I got banned in the first place but I wish there was a way for the system to detect if a ban is the right decision there or if it's just a GM like me trying to inform his members

You are obviously a generous person

Whereas I am jaded by Zos' refusal to communicate with trade GMs in any meaningful way and this is just another example.

theyancey · April 2020

Not a GM but this happened to me a few times last year. My access to traders and guilds were just gone. I finally figured that I was buying too many motifs in too short a period of time. It tripped some fraud protection fuse. I would submit tix each time. Even offered to send them a pic of my DL proving who I was and where I was. I think that they finally realized that I was not some black hat and white listed me. I have had no problems with that since.

Dusk_Coven · April 2020

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

The one thing i've learned with ESO support is that you have to treat them like they have absolutely no understanding of the game. Explain everything very slowly like you would to a child.

That's when they finally actually read what you wrote.
I asked about Hirelings once. The person (not the automatic mail) cut and pasted me something about Cyrodiil AvA rewards.