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New vamp is basically NB nerf
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Dr_Ganknstein✭✭✭✭✭
✭Also once you are invis you can pop elusive mist for the speed and it won't break stealth. I'm curious how sets like prisoner will work with this. You will basically have free sprint and major protection while sprinting lol.0 -
Aedaryl✭✭✭✭✭
✭Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »
Yep, on Vampire you have Dark Stalker passive:Finedaible wrote: »universal_wrath wrote: »Finedaible wrote: »Like I said in another post, other classes will be able to outperform Nightblades' current (and only) niche, which is 1v1 ganking. Nightblade can't even pre-buff with major brutality/sorcery without attacking an enemy or chugging potions.
2H, I can argue that it is the only class that can debuff targets pre-fight via mark. People like to complain about stamblades but they forget stamsorc exist. It exist but forgetten, only class without any debuffs and very few buffs to muster and use.
I'm getting to a point where I wish zos just remove classes and make all skills aviable for everyone to use and balance from that point, play how you want. Zos seems to greatly favor some classes over others, see magcro blastbone vs. Stamcro, stamden easy access to varies stuns vs. Magden .....etc
My point was that some other classes have access to major Brutality/Sorcery from their own class skill toolkit and can benefit from their class passives. Specifically speaking, Netch for Warden, Surge for Sorcs, and Igneous weapons for DKs. That makes 3 other classes which don't require weapon-specific setups for their ganking potential, while stamblade remains as bland as any other generic, two-handed user in pvp. Sure, two-hander has access to easy Major Brutality, but that has no synergy with Nightblade passives, and definitely does not help NB identity as the "rogue" or "shadow mage." It's a gimpy and weak playstyle for Stamblade with all the nerfs they've received to even be competitive anymore. Now, NB doesn't even have exclusive access to invisibility (not that is was worth much before all the counters, nerfs, and bugs received this last year).
Can you stop acting like Unatural movement allow you to set up a burst?
If you stop sprinting, you aren't invisible and when you sprint you cannot cast skill or LA, HA.
This is not a ganking tool but an escape one
My concern is currently if you crouch while sprinting you will go hidden. Of course if you re-tap the sprint button you will go out of stealth. Everyone will become a NB somewhat is what bothers me.
I tried to press my crouch button while sprinting yesterday and it didn't worked.
Can you please try again in case I missed something?
I do it and it works. I'm on Xbox using a controller.
Ignore the Movement Speed penalty of Sneak.
Decreases the time it takes to enter Sneak by 50%.[/i]
And it seems it stays as it is on new vampire re-worked skill line, so it will be pretty easy to do
You sprint, then stop sprinting for going to crouch as fast as possible so?
You don't go in crouch while sprinting right?
I still don't see the issue for 2 reasons :
1. If your goal is to sprint invisible then crouch then gank, you could do it in full croach already.
2. Since you cannot prepare a burst from the invisibility, which skills do you want to burst with?
It need to be an instant cast skill so you get a bit of surprise (you stop sprinting then invisible and immediately attack the enemy). So which one? You cannot dizzy, snipe, onslaught, Dawnbreaker, Heavy attack.
You also loose the stun part the from stealth part.
I see no concrete scenario where you could gank on a no NB class.0 -
Dr_Ganknstein✭✭✭✭✭
✭Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »
Yep, on Vampire you have Dark Stalker passive:Finedaible wrote: »universal_wrath wrote: »Finedaible wrote: »Like I said in another post, other classes will be able to outperform Nightblades' current (and only) niche, which is 1v1 ganking. Nightblade can't even pre-buff with major brutality/sorcery without attacking an enemy or chugging potions.
2H, I can argue that it is the only class that can debuff targets pre-fight via mark. People like to complain about stamblades but they forget stamsorc exist. It exist but forgetten, only class without any debuffs and very few buffs to muster and use.
I'm getting to a point where I wish zos just remove classes and make all skills aviable for everyone to use and balance from that point, play how you want. Zos seems to greatly favor some classes over others, see magcro blastbone vs. Stamcro, stamden easy access to varies stuns vs. Magden .....etc
My point was that some other classes have access to major Brutality/Sorcery from their own class skill toolkit and can benefit from their class passives. Specifically speaking, Netch for Warden, Surge for Sorcs, and Igneous weapons for DKs. That makes 3 other classes which don't require weapon-specific setups for their ganking potential, while stamblade remains as bland as any other generic, two-handed user in pvp. Sure, two-hander has access to easy Major Brutality, but that has no synergy with Nightblade passives, and definitely does not help NB identity as the "rogue" or "shadow mage." It's a gimpy and weak playstyle for Stamblade with all the nerfs they've received to even be competitive anymore. Now, NB doesn't even have exclusive access to invisibility (not that is was worth much before all the counters, nerfs, and bugs received this last year).
Can you stop acting like Unatural movement allow you to set up a burst?
If you stop sprinting, you aren't invisible and when you sprint you cannot cast skill or LA, HA.
This is not a ganking tool but an escape one
My concern is currently if you crouch while sprinting you will go hidden. Of course if you re-tap the sprint button you will go out of stealth. Everyone will become a NB somewhat is what bothers me.
I tried to press my crouch button while sprinting yesterday and it didn't worked.
Can you please try again in case I missed something?
I do it and it works. I'm on Xbox using a controller.
Ignore the Movement Speed penalty of Sneak.
Decreases the time it takes to enter Sneak by 50%.[/i]
And it seems it stays as it is on new vampire re-worked skill line, so it will be pretty easy to do
You sprint, then stop sprinting for going to crouch as fast as possible so?
You don't go in crouch while sprinting right?
I still don't see the issue for 2 reasons :
1. If your goal is to sprint invisible then crouch then gank, you could do it in full croach already.
2. Since you cannot prepare a burst from the invisibility, which skills do you want to burst with?
It need to be an instant cast skill so you get a bit of surprise (you stop sprinting then invisible and immediately attack the enemy). So which one? You cannot dizzy, snipe, onslaught, Dawnbreaker, Heavy attack.
You also loose the stun part the from stealth part.
I see no concrete scenario where you could gank on a no NB class.
You can dizzy, snipe, onslaught from stealth. I've seen necros sneak up to a group of enemies while hidden and ultimate bomb them. I have it clipped. I'm saying how it sounds is that people assume after you stop sprinting you will reappear but I'm thinking if you crouch you will remain hidden and be able to reposition and re-engage like a NB does just not as fluid without cloak.1 -
Aedaryl✭✭✭✭✭
✭Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »
Yep, on Vampire you have Dark Stalker passive:Finedaible wrote: »universal_wrath wrote: »Finedaible wrote: »Like I said in another post, other classes will be able to outperform Nightblades' current (and only) niche, which is 1v1 ganking. Nightblade can't even pre-buff with major brutality/sorcery without attacking an enemy or chugging potions.
2H, I can argue that it is the only class that can debuff targets pre-fight via mark. People like to complain about stamblades but they forget stamsorc exist. It exist but forgetten, only class without any debuffs and very few buffs to muster and use.
I'm getting to a point where I wish zos just remove classes and make all skills aviable for everyone to use and balance from that point, play how you want. Zos seems to greatly favor some classes over others, see magcro blastbone vs. Stamcro, stamden easy access to varies stuns vs. Magden .....etc
My point was that some other classes have access to major Brutality/Sorcery from their own class skill toolkit and can benefit from their class passives. Specifically speaking, Netch for Warden, Surge for Sorcs, and Igneous weapons for DKs. That makes 3 other classes which don't require weapon-specific setups for their ganking potential, while stamblade remains as bland as any other generic, two-handed user in pvp. Sure, two-hander has access to easy Major Brutality, but that has no synergy with Nightblade passives, and definitely does not help NB identity as the "rogue" or "shadow mage." It's a gimpy and weak playstyle for Stamblade with all the nerfs they've received to even be competitive anymore. Now, NB doesn't even have exclusive access to invisibility (not that is was worth much before all the counters, nerfs, and bugs received this last year).
Can you stop acting like Unatural movement allow you to set up a burst?
If you stop sprinting, you aren't invisible and when you sprint you cannot cast skill or LA, HA.
This is not a ganking tool but an escape one
My concern is currently if you crouch while sprinting you will go hidden. Of course if you re-tap the sprint button you will go out of stealth. Everyone will become a NB somewhat is what bothers me.
I tried to press my crouch button while sprinting yesterday and it didn't worked.
Can you please try again in case I missed something?
I do it and it works. I'm on Xbox using a controller.
Ignore the Movement Speed penalty of Sneak.
Decreases the time it takes to enter Sneak by 50%.[/i]
And it seems it stays as it is on new vampire re-worked skill line, so it will be pretty easy to do
You sprint, then stop sprinting for going to crouch as fast as possible so?
You don't go in crouch while sprinting right?
I still don't see the issue for 2 reasons :
1. If your goal is to sprint invisible then crouch then gank, you could do it in full croach already.
2. Since you cannot prepare a burst from the invisibility, which skills do you want to burst with?
It need to be an instant cast skill so you get a bit of surprise (you stop sprinting then invisible and immediately attack the enemy). So which one? You cannot dizzy, snipe, onslaught, Dawnbreaker, Heavy attack.
You also loose the stun part the from stealth part.
I see no concrete scenario where you could gank on a no NB class.
You can dizzy, snipe, onslaught from stealth. I've seen necros sneak up to a group of enemies while hidden and ultimate bomb them. I have it clipped. I'm saying how it sounds is that people assume after you stop sprinting you will reappear but I'm thinking if you crouch you will remain hidden and be able to reposition and re-engage like a NB does just not as fluid without cloak.
If you can already do it from crouch, then it doesn't change it.
If you are able to stand in a melee range from crouch, then why going invisible without being able to cast skills?
As I said, this is not an offensive tool.
You will not do offensives things better, but be able to escape better from an already in crouch gank so.
You guys say other people will do better than NB at ganking.
Explain the scenario from I see a target that I wanna gank to I finish my gank and I am safe. Explain what you do and with which skills on your non NB class. Then explain why is it better than the NB with your superior non NB tools.1 -
Dr_Ganknstein✭✭✭✭✭
✭Escape and then do what? Like mist for right? Its all about fire and maneuver with emphasis on maneuver.0 -
universal_wrath✭✭✭✭✭Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »
Yep, on Vampire you have Dark Stalker passive:Finedaible wrote: »universal_wrath wrote: »Finedaible wrote: »Like I said in another post, other classes will be able to outperform Nightblades' current (and only) niche, which is 1v1 ganking. Nightblade can't even pre-buff with major brutality/sorcery without attacking an enemy or chugging potions.
2H, I can argue that it is the only class that can debuff targets pre-fight via mark. People like to complain about stamblades but they forget stamsorc exist. It exist but forgetten, only class without any debuffs and very few buffs to muster and use.
I'm getting to a point where I wish zos just remove classes and make all skills aviable for everyone to use and balance from that point, play how you want. Zos seems to greatly favor some classes over others, see magcro blastbone vs. Stamcro, stamden easy access to varies stuns vs. Magden .....etc
My point was that some other classes have access to major Brutality/Sorcery from their own class skill toolkit and can benefit from their class passives. Specifically speaking, Netch for Warden, Surge for Sorcs, and Igneous weapons for DKs. That makes 3 other classes which don't require weapon-specific setups for their ganking potential, while stamblade remains as bland as any other generic, two-handed user in pvp. Sure, two-hander has access to easy Major Brutality, but that has no synergy with Nightblade passives, and definitely does not help NB identity as the "rogue" or "shadow mage." It's a gimpy and weak playstyle for Stamblade with all the nerfs they've received to even be competitive anymore. Now, NB doesn't even have exclusive access to invisibility (not that is was worth much before all the counters, nerfs, and bugs received this last year).
Can you stop acting like Unatural movement allow you to set up a burst?
If you stop sprinting, you aren't invisible and when you sprint you cannot cast skill or LA, HA.
This is not a ganking tool but an escape one
My concern is currently if you crouch while sprinting you will go hidden. Of course if you re-tap the sprint button you will go out of stealth. Everyone will become a NB somewhat is what bothers me.
I tried to press my crouch button while sprinting yesterday and it didn't worked.
Can you please try again in case I missed something?
I do it and it works. I'm on Xbox using a controller.
Ignore the Movement Speed penalty of Sneak.
Decreases the time it takes to enter Sneak by 50%.[/i]
And it seems it stays as it is on new vampire re-worked skill line, so it will be pretty easy to do
You sprint, then stop sprinting for going to crouch as fast as possible so?
You don't go in crouch while sprinting right?
I still don't see the issue for 2 reasons :
1. If your goal is to sprint invisible then crouch then gank, you could do it in full croach already.
2. Since you cannot prepare a burst from the invisibility, which skills do you want to burst with?
It need to be an instant cast skill so you get a bit of surprise (you stop sprinting then invisible and immediately attack the enemy). So which one? You cannot dizzy, snipe, onslaught, Dawnbreaker, Heavy attack.
You also loose the stun part the from stealth part.
I see no concrete scenario where you could gank on a no NB class.
You can dizzy, snipe, onslaught from stealth. I've seen necros sneak up to a group of enemies while hidden and ultimate bomb them. I have it clipped. I'm saying how it sounds is that people assume after you stop sprinting you will reappear but I'm thinking if you crouch you will remain hidden and be able to reposition and re-engage like a NB does just not as fluid without cloak.
If you can already do it from crouch, then it doesn't change it.
If you are able to stand in a melee range from crouch, then why going invisible without being able to cast skills?
As I said, this is not an offensive tool.
You will not do offensives things better, but be able to escape better from an already in crouch gank so.
You guys say other people will do better than NB at ganking.
Explain the scenario from I see a target that I wanna gank to I finish my gank and I am safe. Explain what you do and with which skills on your non NB class. Then explain why is it better than the NB with your superior non NB tools.
Oh, I can't wait to play my stamsorc with semi cloak. I don't care if I can't cast anything. I find escapong with cloak is much easier and successful and streaking on stam sorc. You can only streak 2-3 times and everyone can see you and they have access to major expdition and some sort of gap closer. I can't count how many times I sprinted to streaking sorcs and killed them before they get to recover from spaming streak. I'm already on speed cap but eveyone even tanks are able to keep up with my speed via roots, gap closers or range attacks. Going invisble will be a great help, being able to sprint while invisble is game changer for sure espacialy for hit and run playstyle like myself.
IMO, streak on stam sorc as escape tool is joke unless you have atleast 15k+ magicka and pots ready to use. It is more of an offensive skill to be used for CC or gap closing, that is of course if it did not bug out.
0 -
Chrlynsch✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Stage 4 vamps better be ready for super expensive non-vamp skills, extra fire damage, and 0 health recovery.
I say let it play out and watch the QQ threads commence as players cant play their vamp class anymore.
Stage four vamps will be much like a transformed werewolf, niche builds and set ups will have some success but not without having to try and build around their new weaknesses.Caius
Pack Leader of Scourge Alliance- First Fang of Hircine, The Beast of Bruma
PC NA5 -
katorga✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Stage 4 vamps better be ready for super expensive non-vamp skills, extra fire damage, and 0 health recovery.
I say let it play out and watch the QQ threads commence as players cant play their vamp class anymore.
Stage four vamps will be much like a transformed werewolf, niche builds and set ups will have some success but not without having to try and build around their new weaknesses.
NB's lose their minds when anything remotely resembles their class identity.
But this post gets it. Almost every new vamp skill is kiss/curse, speed + invis, but you can't cast. Damage buff but costs health and negates your healer. Damage reduction and speed but no heals and magicka regen. On top of that you get a general curse of increase costs, no health regen, increased fire damage that applies all the time, not just when you use skills.
It will be fun to play around with, but 3 months later everyone will be back to the same boring meta sets and builds that have been used for years.
1 -
Letho2469✭✭✭✭Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »[...]
NB is already the "underdog" class, underperforming in pretty much all type of content. [...]
Yeeeeeees, totally underdog, esp. in PvE:
https://www.esologs.com/zone/statistics/8#metric=dps&dataset=95
https://www.esologs.com/zone/statistics/7#metric=dps&aggregate=amount&dataset=95
https://www.esologs.com/zone/statistics/6#metric=dps&dataset=95&difficulty=121
https://www.esologs.com/zone/statistics/12#metric=dps&dataset=95
Which applies to nearly all DDs that are neither the FOTM DD class (MagDK, Stamplar), Necro or MagSorc.Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »[...]
This new incoming changes will make them simply put - obsolete. Class is doomed without a rework. It has no identity left and nothing what other class can alredy offer in a better form (in other word, NB brings nothing to the table).Trial Progression:
vAA: Hardmode
vHRC: Hardmode
vSO: Hardmode
vMoL: Hardmode + dro-m'Athra-Destroyer
vHoF: Hardmode + Tick Tock Tormentor
vAS: Hardmode + Immortal Redeemer
vCR: Hardmode + Gryphon Heart
vSS: Hardmode0 -
Letho2469✭✭✭✭This forum needs an edit function...Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »[...] NB is already the "underdog" class, underperforming in pretty much all type of content. [...]
Yeeeeeees, totally underdog, esp. in PvE:
https://www.esologs.com/zone/statistics/8#metric=dps&dataset=95
https://www.esologs.com/zone/statistics/7#metric=dps&aggregate=amount&dataset=95
https://www.esologs.com/zone/statistics/6#metric=dps&dataset=95&difficulty=121
https://www.esologs.com/zone/statistics/12#metric=dps&dataset=95
Which applies to nearly all DDs that are neither the FOTM DD class (MagDK, Stamplar), Necro or MagSorc.Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »[...] This new incoming changes will make them simply put - obsolete. Class is doomed without a rework. It has no identity left and nothing what other class can alredy offer in a better form (in other word, NB brings nothing to the table).
Trial Progression:
vAA: Hardmode
vHRC: Hardmode
vSO: Hardmode
vMoL: Hardmode + dro-m'Athra-Destroyer
vHoF: Hardmode + Tick Tock Tormentor
vAS: Hardmode + Immortal Redeemer
vCR: Hardmode + Gryphon Heart
vSS: Hardmode0 -
Tommy_The_Gun✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
Dude, do you think that Trials is the only type of content ? Besides, If Trials are the only place where certain class is competitive, it should really have good results, right ? But NB is still vastly outperformed by others. On average, on the graphs you have linked, it is more or less in the middle, or even lower lol.This forum needs an edit function...Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »[...] NB is already the "underdog" class, underperforming in pretty much all type of content. [...]
Yeeeeeees, totally underdog, esp. in PvE:
https://www.esologs.com/zone/statistics/8#metric=dps&dataset=95
https://www.esologs.com/zone/statistics/7#metric=dps&aggregate=amount&dataset=95
https://www.esologs.com/zone/statistics/6#metric=dps&dataset=95&difficulty=121
https://www.esologs.com/zone/statistics/12#metric=dps&dataset=95
Which applies to nearly all DDs that are neither the FOTM DD class (MagDK, Stamplar), Necro or MagSorc.Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »[...] This new incoming changes will make them simply put - obsolete. Class is doomed without a rework. It has no identity left and nothing what other class can alredy offer in a better form (in other word, NB brings nothing to the table).
Also, just a side note - how many ppl actually do trials and how many ppl use this 3rd party website ? I always thought that this website is primally use to "show-off" - you know, post best results to boast about your accomplishments. You won't see an Average Joe there for sure.
Anyway, Just watch "any" ESO content creator that knows the game. Every time they make a tier-list, NB is always placed at the bottom, both mag & stam. Coincidence ? ? ?
Class comparisment - Harrowstorm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gI2SO2vA3TQ
Class comparisment - Dragonhold
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8q-W0BsD6s Edited by Tommy_The_Gun on April 12, 2020 8:56AM1 -
Letho2469✭✭✭✭
Nope, I don't, but here's what you wrote:Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »Dude, do you think that Trials is the only type of content ?
So "pretty much" excluded PvE endgame, one of the two pillars that balancing is mostly focused on in MMOs? Aight, got it.Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »NB is already the "underdog" class, underperforming in pretty much all type of content
So you think your favorite class deserves no less than standing at the top or bust? Best unchallenged? Aight, I see, thank you for confirming my suspicion.Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »Besides, If Trials are the only place where certain class is competitive, it should really have good results, right ? But NB is still vastly outperformed by others. On average, on the graphs you have linked, it is more or less in the middle, or even lower lol.
The number of ppl using that site is absolutely of no relevance to the point. It provides unbiased statistics of class performance that are directly taken from the game's combat log, so it's the only tool that is available to us that is 100% accurate (few exceptions where the party gets split like portal mechanics, etc.).Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »Also, just a side note - how many ppl actually do trials and how many ppl use this 3rd party website ? I always thought that this website is primally use to "show-off" - you know, post best results to boast about your accomplishments.
Two options when balancing a game:Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »You won't see an Average Joe there for sure.
1. Balancing it with "Average Joe" in mind and making competetive endgame activities a totlly unbalanced mess.
2. Balanging it with the statistically best performance in mind and giving "Average Joe" an option/incentive to get good.
Btw. "Average Joe" has no reason to play a class competetively since he is no min-maxer. So your point of NB not being valuable enough comes from the endgame gamers' camp which should actually indicate that you are NOT "Average Joe".
Both links you provided are PvP only. So my conclusion is: Our interests cannot be consolidated as of now since I am a PvE player and you seem to be a pvp player. This will only become possible if ZoS finally decided to separate every ability tooltips into "... against players" and "... against NPCs" which will probably never happen.Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »Anyway, Just watch "any" ESO content creator that knows the game. Every time they make a tier-list, NB is always placed at the bottom, both mag & stam. Coincidence ? ? ?
Trial Progression:
vAA: Hardmode
vHRC: Hardmode
vSO: Hardmode
vMoL: Hardmode + dro-m'Athra-Destroyer
vHoF: Hardmode + Tick Tock Tormentor
vAS: Hardmode + Immortal Redeemer
vCR: Hardmode + Gryphon Heart
vSS: Hardmode3 -
OWLTHEMAD✭✭✭✭Fact of the matter is though that nightblade DOES NOT bring anything unique to the table in endgame pve. If you can push the numbers guilds will let you in, but its incredibly difficult to push those numbers on a nightblade vs other classes (im sorry but the other class rotations in my experience are far easier, save dragonknight which i havent tried so cannot speak on) and in endgame pve there is little reason in a coordinated group to bring a nightblade except as a tank. Other classes have better group utility with better dps numbers.
And there is no reason that the assasin class' best role should be tanking.
Should we be at the top of the charts? No. Not necessarily, but with harder rotations there should at least be better numbers. Should we have better group utility?
Absolutely. At this point in the game all classes should have group utility and they should have utility that you cant get any where else or at least is best used by that class.
So far id say every class has that, except nightblade. Put dps aside, the class isnt bringing anything to the table. In theory you could, but not without gimping your damage beyond tolerable levels. We used to by bring a lot of cross healing for example. Veil of blades used to be worth slotting, we used to be good at keeping ourselves and allies alive in a pinch with major expedition and damage hots. Thats all gone now. Nerfed to unusability.
I get why the nerfs happened and agree with many of them. But the hammer came down far too hard. Repeatedly.
Anyone who routinely uses nightblade knows we are in a bad place. No one wants to be better than everyone else by merit of class alone, but us nightblade mains want to at least be back on the same field.
And regardless of how you feel about the new invisibility in vampire, at the end of the day its a kick in the shin to every nightblade purist who has watched every unique ability and mechanic we have made publicly accessible to literally everybody else.
After this we are nothing but a knock off hybrid of sorcs and templars with a shadow theme2 -
Joosef_Kivikilpi✭✭✭✭Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »
Yep, on Vampire you have Dark Stalker passive:Finedaible wrote: »universal_wrath wrote: »Finedaible wrote: »Like I said in another post, other classes will be able to outperform Nightblades' current (and only) niche, which is 1v1 ganking. Nightblade can't even pre-buff with major brutality/sorcery without attacking an enemy or chugging potions.
2H, I can argue that it is the only class that can debuff targets pre-fight via mark. People like to complain about stamblades but they forget stamsorc exist. It exist but forgetten, only class without any debuffs and very few buffs to muster and use.
I'm getting to a point where I wish zos just remove classes and make all skills aviable for everyone to use and balance from that point, play how you want. Zos seems to greatly favor some classes over others, see magcro blastbone vs. Stamcro, stamden easy access to varies stuns vs. Magden .....etc
My point was that some other classes have access to major Brutality/Sorcery from their own class skill toolkit and can benefit from their class passives. Specifically speaking, Netch for Warden, Surge for Sorcs, and Igneous weapons for DKs. That makes 3 other classes which don't require weapon-specific setups for their ganking potential, while stamblade remains as bland as any other generic, two-handed user in pvp. Sure, two-hander has access to easy Major Brutality, but that has no synergy with Nightblade passives, and definitely does not help NB identity as the "rogue" or "shadow mage." It's a gimpy and weak playstyle for Stamblade with all the nerfs they've received to even be competitive anymore. Now, NB doesn't even have exclusive access to invisibility (not that is was worth much before all the counters, nerfs, and bugs received this last year).
Can you stop acting like Unatural movement allow you to set up a burst?
If you stop sprinting, you aren't invisible and when you sprint you cannot cast skill or LA, HA.
This is not a ganking tool but an escape one
My concern is currently if you crouch while sprinting you will go hidden. Of course if you re-tap the sprint button you will go out of stealth. Everyone will become a NB somewhat is what bothers me.
I tried to press my crouch button while sprinting yesterday and it didn't worked.
Can you please try again in case I missed something?
I do it and it works. I'm on Xbox using a controller.
Ignore the Movement Speed penalty of Sneak.
Decreases the time it takes to enter Sneak by 50%.[/i]
And it seems it stays as it is on new vampire re-worked skill line, so it will be pretty easy to do
You sprint, then stop sprinting for going to crouch as fast as possible so?
You don't go in crouch while sprinting right?
I still don't see the issue for 2 reasons :
1. If your goal is to sprint invisible then crouch then gank, you could do it in full croach already.
2. Since you cannot prepare a burst from the invisibility, which skills do you want to burst with?
It need to be an instant cast skill so you get a bit of surprise (you stop sprinting then invisible and immediately attack the enemy). So which one? You cannot dizzy, snipe, onslaught, Dawnbreaker, Heavy attack.
You also loose the stun part the from stealth part.
I see no concrete scenario where you could gank on a no NB class.
You can dizzy, snipe, onslaught from stealth. I've seen necros sneak up to a group of enemies while hidden and ultimate bomb them. I have it clipped. I'm saying how it sounds is that people assume after you stop sprinting you will reappear but I'm thinking if you crouch you will remain hidden and be able to reposition and re-engage like a NB does just not as fluid without cloak.
If you can already do it from crouch, then it doesn't change it.
If you are able to stand in a melee range from crouch, then why going invisible without being able to cast skills?
As I said, this is not an offensive tool.
You will not do offensives things better, but be able to escape better from an already in crouch gank so.
You guys say other people will do better than NB at ganking.
Explain the scenario from I see a target that I wanna gank to I finish my gank and I am safe. Explain what you do and with which skills on your non NB class. Then explain why is it better than the NB with your superior non NB tools.
Guess you've never seen an invisible Harmony gank group before? Lolz this vampire change is going to make it even easier to pull off. Ever been hit by a 40k Gravity Crush synergy, then 20k Boneyard synergy, from complete invisibility? Yeah, I haven't either... but the people who I killed have been hit by it. Marauder's Haste, Swift Jewellery, Mist Form, Darloc Brae. My group of Templar, Necromancer, Dragonknight, then myself as a Mageblade to activate synergies, all stealthing permanently at 185%+ move speed. Now this new change to Vampires with just having to sprint??? And you don't see the offensive burst capabilities to it?
Also, how any class would do better than a Nightblade with such ease of access to invisibility while Sprinting: Think of a Stamina Templar burst... But not seeing them until they're right on top of you with a Dizzy Swing + Crescent Sweep (that has no cast time), followed by incoming death because you were caught off guard. Sure, its defensive capabilities will be ridiculous, but it carries great initial burst lineup if carefully executed. The thing is... Most players who don't main Nightblade don't think like a Nightblade in how to use stealth to their utmost advantage. You open the door to all the classes with that ease of use though... That mentality is going to start creating some utterly stupid broken things you'll rue the for. Can't wait for Frost to make a comeback like in the good ol' Icy Storm constant immobilization of all caught inside days when a Warden rocks up with his invis group and a permafrost 70% snare from nowhere, followed by shalks, and everything else your Mom told you to be careful of in Cyrodiil.
Good night and good luck to us normal plebs who die hard won't play Vampires.
Edited by Joosef_Kivikilpi on April 14, 2020 6:05AM0 -
Joosef_Kivikilpi✭✭✭✭Fact of the matter is though that nightblade DOES NOT bring anything unique to the table in endgame pve. If you can push the numbers guilds will let you in, but its incredibly difficult to push those numbers on a nightblade vs other classes (im sorry but the other class rotations in my experience are far easier, save dragonknight which i havent tried so cannot speak on) and in endgame pve there is little reason in a coordinated group to bring a nightblade except as a tank. Other classes have better group utility with better dps numbers.
And there is no reason that the assasin class' best role should be tanking.
Should we be at the top of the charts? No. Not necessarily, but with harder rotations there should at least be better numbers. Should we have better group utility?
Absolutely. At this point in the game all classes should have group utility and they should have utility that you cant get any where else or at least is best used by that class.
So far id say every class has that, except nightblade. Put dps aside, the class isnt bringing anything to the table. In theory you could, but not without gimping your damage beyond tolerable levels. We used to by bring a lot of cross healing for example. Veil of blades used to be worth slotting, we used to be good at keeping ourselves and allies alive in a pinch with major expedition and damage hots. Thats all gone now. Nerfed to unusability.
I get why the nerfs happened and agree with many of them. But the hammer came down far too hard. Repeatedly.
Anyone who routinely uses nightblade knows we are in a bad place. No one wants to be better than everyone else by merit of class alone, but us nightblade mains want to at least be back on the same field.
And regardless of how you feel about the new invisibility in vampire, at the end of the day its a kick in the shin to every nightblade purist who has watched every unique ability and mechanic we have made publicly accessible to literally everybody else.
After this we are nothing but a knock off hybrid of sorcs and templars with a shadow theme
F for Respect, my fellow Nightblade purist. Literally has been a burden logging in and thinking of doing anything besides being a Craftblade for my wife's home for me and my main and original Nightblade.1 -
Aedaryl✭✭✭✭✭
✭Joosef_Kivikilpi wrote: »Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »
Yep, on Vampire you have Dark Stalker passive:Finedaible wrote: »universal_wrath wrote: »Finedaible wrote: »Like I said in another post, other classes will be able to outperform Nightblades' current (and only) niche, which is 1v1 ganking. Nightblade can't even pre-buff with major brutality/sorcery without attacking an enemy or chugging potions.
2H, I can argue that it is the only class that can debuff targets pre-fight via mark. People like to complain about stamblades but they forget stamsorc exist. It exist but forgetten, only class without any debuffs and very few buffs to muster and use.
I'm getting to a point where I wish zos just remove classes and make all skills aviable for everyone to use and balance from that point, play how you want. Zos seems to greatly favor some classes over others, see magcro blastbone vs. Stamcro, stamden easy access to varies stuns vs. Magden .....etc
My point was that some other classes have access to major Brutality/Sorcery from their own class skill toolkit and can benefit from their class passives. Specifically speaking, Netch for Warden, Surge for Sorcs, and Igneous weapons for DKs. That makes 3 other classes which don't require weapon-specific setups for their ganking potential, while stamblade remains as bland as any other generic, two-handed user in pvp. Sure, two-hander has access to easy Major Brutality, but that has no synergy with Nightblade passives, and definitely does not help NB identity as the "rogue" or "shadow mage." It's a gimpy and weak playstyle for Stamblade with all the nerfs they've received to even be competitive anymore. Now, NB doesn't even have exclusive access to invisibility (not that is was worth much before all the counters, nerfs, and bugs received this last year).
Can you stop acting like Unatural movement allow you to set up a burst?
If you stop sprinting, you aren't invisible and when you sprint you cannot cast skill or LA, HA.
This is not a ganking tool but an escape one
My concern is currently if you crouch while sprinting you will go hidden. Of course if you re-tap the sprint button you will go out of stealth. Everyone will become a NB somewhat is what bothers me.
I tried to press my crouch button while sprinting yesterday and it didn't worked.
Can you please try again in case I missed something?
I do it and it works. I'm on Xbox using a controller.
Ignore the Movement Speed penalty of Sneak.
Decreases the time it takes to enter Sneak by 50%.[/i]
And it seems it stays as it is on new vampire re-worked skill line, so it will be pretty easy to do
You sprint, then stop sprinting for going to crouch as fast as possible so?
You don't go in crouch while sprinting right?
I still don't see the issue for 2 reasons :
1. If your goal is to sprint invisible then crouch then gank, you could do it in full croach already.
2. Since you cannot prepare a burst from the invisibility, which skills do you want to burst with?
It need to be an instant cast skill so you get a bit of surprise (you stop sprinting then invisible and immediately attack the enemy). So which one? You cannot dizzy, snipe, onslaught, Dawnbreaker, Heavy attack.
You also loose the stun part the from stealth part.
I see no concrete scenario where you could gank on a no NB class.
You can dizzy, snipe, onslaught from stealth. I've seen necros sneak up to a group of enemies while hidden and ultimate bomb them. I have it clipped. I'm saying how it sounds is that people assume after you stop sprinting you will reappear but I'm thinking if you crouch you will remain hidden and be able to reposition and re-engage like a NB does just not as fluid without cloak.
If you can already do it from crouch, then it doesn't change it.
If you are able to stand in a melee range from crouch, then why going invisible without being able to cast skills?
As I said, this is not an offensive tool.
You will not do offensives things better, but be able to escape better from an already in crouch gank so.
You guys say other people will do better than NB at ganking.
Explain the scenario from I see a target that I wanna gank to I finish my gank and I am safe. Explain what you do and with which skills on your non NB class. Then explain why is it better than the NB with your superior non NB tools.
Guess you've never seen an invisible Harmony gank group before? Lolz this vampire change is going to make it even easier to pull off. Ever been hit by a 40k Gravity Crush synergy, then 20k Boneyard synergy, from complete invisibility? Yeah, I haven't either... but the people who I killed have been hit by it. Marauder's Haste, Swift Jewellery, Mist Form, Darloc Brae. My group of Templar, Necromancer, Dragonknight, then myself as a Mageblade to activate synergies, all stealthing permanently at 185%+ move speed. Now this new change to Vampires with just having to sprint??? And you don't see the offensive burst capabilities to it?
Also, how any class would do better than a Nightblade with such ease of access to invisibility while Sprinting: Think of a Stamina Templar burst... But not seeing them until they're right on top of you with a Dizzy Swing + Crescent Sweep (that has no cast time), followed by incoming death because you were caught off guard. Sure, its defensive capabilities will be ridiculous, but it carries great initial burst lineup if carefully executed. The thing is... Most players who don't main Nightblade don't think like a Nightblade in how to use stealth to their utmost advantage. You open the door to all the classes with that ease of use though... That mentality is going to start creating some utterly stupid broken things you'll rue the for. Can't wait for Frost to make a comeback like in the good ol' Icy Storm constant immobilization of all caught inside days when a Warden rocks up with his invis group and a permafrost 70% snare from nowhere, followed by shalks, and everything else your Mom told you to be careful of in Cyrodiil.
Good night and good luck to us normal plebs who die hard won't play Vampires.
[snip]
If you you use dizzing swing + sweep you still have the cast time of dizzy when you are visible and you haven't stun your enemy, this is a bad gank.
A gank is a about :
- Gaining a global cooldown by charging your burst from stealth, like an heavy attack, any cast time ability.
- Gaining an other global cooldown by opening with stun from stealth which stun and hit the enemy at the same second than your charged burst.
- Getting the surprise effect + the stun at the first second to land an other attack by the time the noob break free (good player break free instantly and doest get hit after the stun).
This why gank can be effective.
Lets see about Unatural Mouvement :
- You cannot prebuff you with shorts duration buffs like elemental weapon.
-You cannot charge a burst or a cast time from stealth to gain a global cooldown
-You cannot gain the second global cooldown by stunning the ennemy while landing a pre buffed charged burst.
-You doesn't benefit from the surprise effect to gain other global cooldown if the the ennemy is bad enough because :
No one has access to :
An instant cast high damage skill that stun.
If you suddenly appear near your ennemy casting an Onslaught or a dizzy, it will not be as effective than appearing while already have deal huge damage while the enemy is stunned.
And for the harmony gank, you can already do it, so it doesn't change anything.
[edited for non-constructive/baiting comment]
Edited by ZOS_RogerJ on April 14, 2020 3:39PM3 -
Letho2469✭✭✭✭
That applies to all other DD classes aswell except Necro.Fact of the matter is though that nightblade DOES NOT bring anything unique to the table in endgame pve. [...] Other classes have better group utility with better dps numbers.
I'd say other DDs should get more complex rotations. But then casuals gonna cry even more and ZoS has proven to serve them first. If we followed your logic, everybody would be forced into playing NB again.And there is no reason that the assasin class' best role should be tanking. Should we be at the top of the charts? No. Not necessarily, but with harder rotations there should at least be better numbers.
Absolutely, yes. Especially the ridiculous "still must have" Necro ult is a big problem.Should we have better group utility? Absolutely. At this point in the game all classes should have group utility and they should have utility that you cant get any where else or at least is best used by that class.
Those were the days where everybody had not only to play nightblade during triples progression, but magicka nightblade - no thank you.We used to by bring a lot of cross healing for example. Veil of blades used to be worth slotting, we used to be good at keeping ourselves and allies alive in a pinch with major expedition and damage hots. Thats all gone now. Nerfed to unusability.
Nightblades still have the best burst in the game. It's just the encounter mechanics do not neccessarily serve that. In vSS you can easily bring two nightblades without suffering a loss of DPS.Anyone who routinely uses nightblade knows we are in a bad place. No one wants to be better than everyone else by merit of class alone, but us nightblade mains want to at least be back on the same field.
That is indeed ridiculous and a last nail to PvP's coffin.And regardless of how you feel about the new invisibility in vampire, at the end of the day its a kick in the shin to every nightblade purist who has watched every unique ability and mechanic we have made publicly accessible to literally everybody else.
Trial Progression:
vAA: Hardmode
vHRC: Hardmode
vSO: Hardmode
vMoL: Hardmode + dro-m'Athra-Destroyer
vHoF: Hardmode + Tick Tock Tormentor
vAS: Hardmode + Immortal Redeemer
vCR: Hardmode + Gryphon Heart
vSS: Hardmode0 -
Letho2469✭✭✭✭
That applies to all other DD classes aswell except Necro.Fact of the matter is though that nightblade DOES NOT bring anything unique to the table in endgame pve. [...] Other classes have better group utility with better dps numbers.
I'd say other DDs should get more complex rotations. But then casuals gonna cry even more and ZoS has proven to serve them first. If we followed your logic, everybody would be forced into playing NB again.And there is no reason that the assasin class' best role should be tanking. Should we be at the top of the charts? No. Not necessarily, but with harder rotations there should at least be better numbers.
Absolutely, yes. Especially the ridiculous "still must have" Necro ult is a big problem.Should we have better group utility? Absolutely. At this point in the game all classes should have group utility and they should have utility that you cant get any where else or at least is best used by that class.
Those were the days where everybody had not only to play nightblade during triples progression, but magicka nightblade - no thank you.We used to by bring a lot of cross healing for example. Veil of blades used to be worth slotting, we used to be good at keeping ourselves and allies alive in a pinch with major expedition and damage hots. Thats all gone now. Nerfed to unusability.
Nightblades still have the best burst in the game. It's just the encounter mechanics do not neccessarily serve that. In vSS you can easily bring two nightblades without suffering a loss of DPS.Anyone who routinely uses nightblade knows we are in a bad place. No one wants to be better than everyone else by merit of class alone, but us nightblade mains want to at least be back on the same field.
That is indeed ridiculous and a last nail to PvP's coffin.And regardless of how you feel about the new invisibility in vampire, at the end of the day its a kick in the shin to every nightblade purist who has watched every unique ability and mechanic we have made publicly accessible to literally everybody else.
Trial Progression:
vAA: Hardmode
vHRC: Hardmode
vSO: Hardmode
vMoL: Hardmode + dro-m'Athra-Destroyer
vHoF: Hardmode + Tick Tock Tormentor
vAS: Hardmode + Immortal Redeemer
vCR: Hardmode + Gryphon Heart
vSS: Hardmode0 -
juhislihis19✭✭✭✭juhislihis19 wrote: »Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »Not just any nerf. It is the final nail to the coffin for NB class (no pun intended, because you know, Vampires).
Since literally every patch done by new combat team, NB has seen only nerfs. Not a single buff. Even the last min-patch when they sneaked Incap silence replacing it with stun, their comment was basically, that it was causing some issues they could not fix, so they added stun back. Not because no one was using incap or because NB is underperforming.
Last year NB "lost" 3 of its major class identity features:
- Fear was casually added to fighters guild skill and right now this skill (Turn Evil) is basically night & day vs NB fear (Mass Hysteria). Skill is available for every class to use.
- Grim Focus was basically "copied" into sorc toolkit (Bound Armaments) so now Sorcs also have access to NB-unique mechanics of charging an attack by gathering stacks. The minor difference is animation and 4 projectile instead of one.
- Ambush also suffered similar fate. Flying Blade (Dual Wield skill) received identical "teleport" style gap-closer. All classes can use it.
I remember the time StamBlades were the top dogs of PVP. That was when Wrobel was still around.
I remember the nerf threads. If I recall right, most of the complaints were about Cloak. Mine was as well. Sacrificing your potions just to pull them out of their Cloak, seems too excessive. Spamming AoE's several times and you "might" succeed. Expedition + Cloak and the NB was already out of reach. Fight restarts.
So complains were about Cloak, majority of it. StamBlades deserved to be nerfed, and they could've started and finished with just Cloak. So what ZOS did? They literally changed EVERY other ability in their toolkit, except CLOAK. That pissed me off.
And look at the state of NB now, a huge mess. But the Cloak is still there, lol.
dude the nerfs to cloak were detect pots and now the fact that literally every class has a main ability to get a nb out of cloak. if that isnt enough for you there are very apparent l2p issues. the last viable stamblade build also utilized dark cloak partially for this reason. cloak is not overpowered in the slightest and does not at all define the nightblade class unless we are nerfed to the extend that we utterly depend upon it. every class has an ability like cloak, yet ours actually isnt outlawed in pvp guild duels like streak is for example. cloak is not op to anyone who understands how to play the game.
like based on your logic, fossilize on a magdk's bar is also op because sometimes you need a immovable bot to not be cc'd in the middle of your burst on them. i like the immovable pots with crit on them so when they spam their safety button in the middle of my burst heh. [snip] is a sorcs streak too op because despite its nerfs they can literally streak away and reset the fight? engine guardian proc/streak, streak streak. Fight restarts? I'm pretty sure there isn't a potion to counter streak though. Hmmm not really an ability either to stop it. cloak is not op. every class has an ability/mechanic that they play around that makes their class strong. this does not mean that ability needs to be nerfed or the class needs to be gutted. [snip]
[edited for baiting]
Ermmm, apparently Fossilize was too overpowered, as it had to be nerfed to the ground. Gave it a hefty 50% cost increase. No one really uses it anymore lol.
And Streak is overpowered, or at least overpacked.
Have you even tried these "main class" AoE's to get NB out of stealth? I guarantee you haven't. Because they rarely work. And if you get pulled out of Cloak because ie. Sub Assault or Noxiuos Breath, then you're just a potato.1 -
merevie✭✭✭✭✭The vampire rework will follow the same journey as the werewolf one did. So wouldn't worry about that being a class choice sort of thing for long.
Something has to be newer better brighter to make sales so it will too go the way of nerfdom.
At least light attacks were not destroyed. This time. We need to make sure that sort of blindsiding does not happen to the community again.
Edited by merevie on April 15, 2020 7:20AM2 -
Czekoludek✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Stamplar gives potl, magplar minor sorcery, ritual for all with healing and purge, stamdk stagger, magDK engulfing, standard and talon synergies, magsorc synergies (conduit and major berserk), healing from matriarch in 4 ppl content, minor intellect and prophecy, stamsorc (only Berserk synergy comes to mind), both necro synergies and ult, warden buffs but can be replaced by healer/tank if on group.
So most dds introduce something to the group utility0 -
Iskiab✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭/yawn
Enough speculation, it’s getting boring.
NB undertuned, we all know it
Vampire will either help or hurt, who knows. One day PTS will be up and we’ll find out:Looking for any guildies I used to play with:
Havoc Warhammer - Alair
LoC EQ2 - Mayi and Iskiab
PRX and Tabula Rasa - Rift - Iskiab
Or anyone else I used to play games with in guilds I’ve forgotten1 -
Zelos✭✭✭✭✭I've never gone vamp on stamina nightblade becuase it's awful for medium armor.Aeonhack - AD Stamina Nightblade - 5 Star General
CP1200
Creator and user of "Questionable" addons and game mechanics.0 -
josh.lackey_ESO✭✭✭✭✭Also once you are invis you can pop elusive mist for the speed and it won't break stealth. I'm curious how sets like prisoner will work with this. You will basically have free sprint and major protection while sprinting lol.
you can't sprint while in mist form. it would cancel the invis.1 -
evoniee✭✭✭✭stop beating dead horse, nb suck thats it, dont pretend, very other class can do well but nb already butchered the most0 -
Dr_Ganknstein✭✭✭✭✭
✭josh.lackey_ESO wrote: »Also once you are invis you can pop elusive mist for the speed and it won't break stealth. I'm curious how sets like prisoner will work with this. You will basically have free sprint and major protection while sprinting lol.
you can't sprint while in mist form. it would cancel the invis.
I know you can't but by then you won't need to. What I mean is sprint until you turn invis, make sure you crouch so you stay in is pop mist form, poof gone. I do this all the time with cloak. But aside from the invis stuff its going to make scroll running ridiculous with how easy it will be to have perma sprint with some of those sets. Sometimes I wish they would just leave the game alone when it comes to these major game altering changes.0 -
universal_wrath✭✭✭✭✭josh.lackey_ESO wrote: »Also once you are invis you can pop elusive mist for the speed and it won't break stealth. I'm curious how sets like prisoner will work with this. You will basically have free sprint and major protection while sprinting lol.
you can't sprint while in mist form. it would cancel the invis.
I know you can't but by then you won't need to. What I mean is sprint until you turn invis, make sure you crouch so you stay in is pop mist form, poof gone. I do this all the time with cloak. But aside from the invis stuff its going to make scroll running ridiculous with how easy it will be to have perma sprint with some of those sets. Sometimes I wish they would just leave the game alone when it comes to these major game altering changes.
I think they won't allow you to stealth whole carrying objects like scrolls. It is aplicable now in BGs, if you have flag you can not stealth or streak.1
