If your a Magicka user then you can run and rolldodge without cost, Stamina users have to deal with the cost of fighting, roldDodge and running. That`s something to consider.

madman65 wrote: »

If your a Magicka user then you can run and rolldodge without cost, Stamina users have to deal with the cost of fighting, roldDodge and running. That`s something to consider.

It’s not really without cost. Stamina resource management can actually be very difficult on a magicka character in PvP, particularly in no-CP. If you can’t break free, roll dodge, or block at the appropriate times, you will die. So you have to have the stamina resources to do that a lot.

In any event, that’s the justification for the fact that stamina abilities cost less than magicka ones (compare costs of magicka and stamina morphs of the same ability). I don’t really think that justification makes sense, since magicka characters need to build in extra stamina resources into their build to deal with those things too. So it’s not like stamina characters have more total resource demands to sustain than magicka characters. Yet they get cheaper abilities.

I think it’s basically something that was done with PvE in mind, where roll dodging and whatnot is essentially free since you don’t need to do it quite enough for stamina resource management to get difficult.

Many times I have been in trials and "when" it`s mostly made up of Magicka users, they are constantly running. I have 3 Magicka builds and 1 Stamina, I have ran out of Stamina because of that. I use the Werewolf passives just for the Stamina regeneration to stay in the fight. As far as my Magiacka builds being stunned, knockback or snared I just hang back and fight in the distance like I have seen other Magicka players. My warden actually uses Stamina "Cutting Dive " help`s with use of Magicka, I use it like a timer on my rotation. My Stam build is distant AOE then up close single target, I like it because it`s fun. Bottom line in my book, Stam builds needs the resistance because of the option of getting in close (if that`s the way you have it setup) to do the damage.

I will agree with that, Magicka is difficult but if you know what you`re doing it can be achieved. It comes down to the "how you fight" scenario. I started out with Alcast builds and found that it was not for me. Gave me ideas though, in the long run I was using about 2/3rd`s of what Alcast was suggesting.

JumpmanLane wrote: »

RiskyChalice863 wrote: »

It is undeniable that stamina classes are stronger than magicka classes right now—at least for solo play and things like BGs.

There’s certainly multiple reasons for that, but I just want to highlight one that I’ve not seen people talk about: The asymmetry in the amount of spell resistance and physical resistance people have.

Most sources of resistances add to both spell resistance and physical resistance. But the ones that don’t apply to both essentially all are buffs to spell resistance and not physical resistance. This creates an asymmetry, where a good portion of players are running around with significantly higher spell resistance than physical resistance. This is true for all Templars and Dragonknights, as well as all Bretons. Moreover, players get additional spell resistance for each piece of light armor they wear, which means a large portion magicka characters will also have significantly higher spell resistance than physical resistance, and virtually everyone has at least a slight bit more. Overall, the result is that almost every player has higher spell resistances than physical resistances, and probably about two-thirds of players have quite a bit more spell resistance than physical resistance.

And the differences here can actually be pretty massive. For example, a Breton MagDK wearing five pieces of light armor will have 7425 more spell resistance than physical resistance, and 9735 more if they’re burning, chilled, or concussed. Those are huge differences. Even without the burning, chilled, or concussed status effect, you’d need the spell penetration provided by Spinners + Sharpened 2H weapon + the 4-piece bonus of New Moon Acolyte JUST to be at the same spot in terms of penetration as a stamina build that had zero penetration at all. And even if you’re instead attacking something like a Stamplar with only 1 light armor piece, you’re still looking at so much extra spell resistance compared to physical resistance that even a Sharpened trait or penetration mundus stone can’t make up for it.

The retort may be to point out that light armor gets a bunch of additional spell penetration. But that’s not really a valid counterpoint, because it ignores that medium armor get a 15% weapon damage boost that light armor doesn’t get. Light armor’s extra spell penetration isn’t making up for the higher spell resistances many players tend to have—rather, it is the alternative buff to the weapon damage buff medium armor gets.

Well, maybe if you’re low cp or playing no cp because cp can even it out within a few percent. Doesn’t even take much in it either.

In the end. 50% mitigation is all you can get at resistance cap. Spell resistance and physical resistance not being equal down to the last percent is not that big of a deal, particularly when you consider the role of percentage based damage reduction (for example Minor Protection, or gear like Potentates) plays in combat calculations. Plus in the end there’s heals.

To say “everyone” is running around with more spell resistance than physical resistance on a mag toon is just not true. Noobs might be. Lowbies might be. Folks in BG’s could be. No-Cp possibly. If they are, then part of their build has to compensate for the differences in resistance.

In CP PvP compensating is easy enough...with CP LOL.

Also, you may or may not of noticed how a lot of sets have been changed to provide “armor” as opposed to either spell or physical resistance. They provide both. ZOS HAS considered your point though, apparently. It’s possible to build appropriately. In the end, or at high endgame your issue is not the issue you believe it to be.

My MagDk runs spell and physical resistances within 1% of each other.

It is true that people might not have higher spell resistance than physical resistance if they’ve used their CP to equal them out. Just anecdotally, from the many build videos I’ve watched, I don’t think many people actually do that though. As in, if you look at CP PvP build videos for stuff like DKs or Templars, they almost always have higher spell resistance than physical resistance.

It maybe has to do with the diminishing returns you’d get on the CP points as you raise spell resistance. If there’s a several thousand difference between your spell and physical resistance without CP, then the CP investment you’ll need to make to equal them out is pretty inefficient.

For example, a non-Breton MagDK in 5 light armor pieces would need to put 83 points into Light Armor Focus to even out the resistances. That is a very inefficient use of CP. And even that’s assuming they didn’t put any points into Spell Shield. If they put even 2 points into Spell Shield, then it would be impossible for their resistances to even out, even if they put 100 points into Light Armor Focus. Even for a non-Breton Magplar in 5 light armor pieces, it’d take 61 points into Light Armor Focus to even out the resistances. And if that Magplar put even 8 points into Spell Shield, it’d be impossible for their resistances to even out.

There are even situations where it is not even possible to use CP to even them out. If you’ve got 5 light armor pieces with a Breton Templar or Breton DK, then it is literally not possible to use CP to even the resistances out.

So yes, the effect of this is mitigated a bit by the fact that many people with higher innate spell resistance will perhaps put a little more CP into physical resistance. But in a large portion of the relevant cases (i.e. Templars, DKs, Bretons, and/or people in light armor), they’re quite unlikely to actually even out the resistances. In fact, it’s realistically likely that they won’t get even close to evening out the resistances, due to the diminishing marginal returns on CP.

It is possible to try to further even it out by putting more points into Hardy than into Elemental Defender, but again the diminishing marginal returns make this a bit inefficient. In the end, if someone were really dedicated to making their Templar, DK, Breton and/or light-armor wearing character be equally vulnerable to physical and spell damage, then they could do it. But I think it’s pretty uncommon, since doing so requires some pretty inefficient CP usage.

I’ll also note that lots of people—me included—mostly play no-CP PvP (particularly when Cyrodiil basically doesn’t work right now).

JumpmanLane wrote: »

RiskyChalice863 wrote: »

JumpmanLane wrote: »

RiskyChalice863 wrote: »

It is undeniable that stamina classes are stronger than magicka classes right now—at least for solo play and things like BGs.

There’s certainly multiple reasons for that, but I just want to highlight one that I’ve not seen people talk about: The asymmetry in the amount of spell resistance and physical resistance people have.

Most sources of resistances add to both spell resistance and physical resistance. But the ones that don’t apply to both essentially all are buffs to spell resistance and not physical resistance. This creates an asymmetry, where a good portion of players are running around with significantly higher spell resistance than physical resistance. This is true for all Templars and Dragonknights, as well as all Bretons. Moreover, players get additional spell resistance for each piece of light armor they wear, which means a large portion magicka characters will also have significantly higher spell resistance than physical resistance, and virtually everyone has at least a slight bit more. Overall, the result is that almost every player has higher spell resistances than physical resistances, and probably about two-thirds of players have quite a bit more spell resistance than physical resistance.

And the differences here can actually be pretty massive. For example, a Breton MagDK wearing five pieces of light armor will have 7425 more spell resistance than physical resistance, and 9735 more if they’re burning, chilled, or concussed. Those are huge differences. Even without the burning, chilled, or concussed status effect, you’d need the spell penetration provided by Spinners + Sharpened 2H weapon + the 4-piece bonus of New Moon Acolyte JUST to be at the same spot in terms of penetration as a stamina build that had zero penetration at all. And even if you’re instead attacking something like a Stamplar with only 1 light armor piece, you’re still looking at so much extra spell resistance compared to physical resistance that even a Sharpened trait or penetration mundus stone can’t make up for it.

The retort may be to point out that light armor gets a bunch of additional spell penetration. But that’s not really a valid counterpoint, because it ignores that medium armor get a 15% weapon damage boost that light armor doesn’t get. Light armor’s extra spell penetration isn’t making up for the higher spell resistances many players tend to have—rather, it is the alternative buff to the weapon damage buff medium armor gets.

Well, maybe if you’re low cp or playing no cp because cp can even it out within a few percent. Doesn’t even take much in it either.

In the end. 50% mitigation is all you can get at resistance cap. Spell resistance and physical resistance not being equal down to the last percent is not that big of a deal, particularly when you consider the role of percentage based damage reduction (for example Minor Protection, or gear like Potentates) plays in combat calculations. Plus in the end there’s heals.

To say “everyone” is running around with more spell resistance than physical resistance on a mag toon is just not true. Noobs might be. Lowbies might be. Folks in BG’s could be. No-Cp possibly. If they are, then part of their build has to compensate for the differences in resistance.

In CP PvP compensating is easy enough...with CP LOL.

Also, you may or may not of noticed how a lot of sets have been changed to provide “armor” as opposed to either spell or physical resistance. They provide both. ZOS HAS considered your point though, apparently. It’s possible to build appropriately. In the end, or at high endgame your issue is not the issue you believe it to be.

My MagDk runs spell and physical resistances within 1% of each other.

It is true that people might not have higher spell resistance than physical resistance if they’ve used their CP to equal them out. Just anecdotally, from the many build videos I’ve watched, I don’t think many people actually do that though. As in, if you look at CP PvP build videos for stuff like DKs or Templars, they almost always have higher spell resistance than physical resistance.

It maybe has to do with the diminishing returns you’d get on the CP points as you raise spell resistance. If there’s a several thousand difference between your spell and physical resistance without CP, then the CP investment you’ll need to make to equal them out is pretty inefficient.

For example, a non-Breton MagDK in 5 light armor pieces would need to put 83 points into Light Armor Focus to even out the resistances. That is a very inefficient use of CP. And even that’s assuming they didn’t put any points into Spell Shield. If they put even 2 points into Spell Shield, then it would be impossible for their resistances to even out, even if they put 100 points into Light Armor Focus. Even for a non-Breton Magplar in 5 light armor pieces, it’d take 61 points into Light Armor Focus to even out the resistances. And if that Magplar put even 8 points into Spell Shield, it’d be impossible for their resistances to even out.

There are even situations where it is not even possible to use CP to even them out. If you’ve got 5 light armor pieces with a Breton Templar or Breton DK, then it is literally not possible to use CP to even the resistances out.

So yes, the effect of this is mitigated a bit by the fact that many people with higher innate spell resistance will perhaps put a little more CP into physical resistance. But in a large portion of the relevant cases (i.e. Templars, DKs, Bretons, and/or people in light armor), they’re quite unlikely to actually even out the resistances. In fact, it’s realistically likely that they won’t get even close to evening out the resistances, due to the diminishing marginal returns on CP.

It is possible to try to further even it out by putting more points into Hardy than into Elemental Defender, but again the diminishing marginal returns make this a bit inefficient. In the end, if someone were really dedicated to making their Templar, DK, Breton and/or light-armor wearing character be equally vulnerable to physical and spell damage, then they could do it. But I think it’s pretty uncommon, since doing so requires some pretty inefficient CP usage.

I’ll also note that lots of people—me included—mostly play no-CP PvP (particularly when Cyrodiil basically doesn’t work right now).

Most builds you find online are trash. That aside, you’re right about diminishing returns in that ultimately all you’d mitigate is 50% at cap.

With relatively little allocation into Light Armor Focus (in light) or Heavy Armor Focus it’s possible go a Mag toon to lessen the gap between their spell and physical resistances to the point where it just doesn’t matter, the gap.

Let’s pick a number at random. Let’s say you can get the number to say 1800 (that is 1800 difference between spell and physical resistances). That would be like 2.7% difference in the amount one could mitigate.

This wouldn’t matter at all when you factor in all the other forms of lessening damage in combat: blocking, %damage reduction, heals even. Isolated and taken out of context, difference between spell and physical resistances just doesn’t matter that much the closer a toon’s resistances approach the cap. It really only matters for low resistance. And those folks are Squish to begin with.

I’d argue 1800 resistances is actually quite a big difference.

I realize 1800/660 = 2.7, but it’s really more than 2.7% in reality.

For instance, let’s say you have 26,000 physical resistance and 27,800 spell resistance. And let’s say you have minor protection, and you have an extra 10% mitigation of physical and magic damage from CP (i.e. Hardy and Elemental Defender). Now, let’s say you get hit by 20,000 base damage. If that were physical damage, you’d take 5,018 damage. But if that were magic damage, you’d take 4,792 damage. In other words, you’d take 4.72% more physical damage than magic damage, due to that 1800 resistance difference. The reason for this is that, while 1800/660 = 2.7, extra resistances are effectively additive. In other words, in effect, in this example, the physical resistances multiply all physical damage by 0.606–because ((26000/660)-100)/100 = 0.606)—while the spell resistances multiply all spell damage by 0.579–because ((27800/660)-100)/100 = 0.579. And 0.606/0.579 = 1.047.

And that’s not even taking into account the issue of net damage. The biggest reason buffs like Minor Berserk are such a big deal despite looking like relatively low damage increase numbers is that people’s healing essentially makes any percent damage increase higher than it looks in terms of net damage. Let’s take the above example. Let’s say you are actually doing 3,000 self-healing during that time period. That would mean that if the damage were physical damage, you’d end up losing a net of 2,018 health, while you’d lose only 1,792 health if it were magic damage. So, suddenly, when you take that healing into account, that 1800 resistance difference means you are taking 12.6% more net damage if the incoming damage is physical damage compared to if it’s spell damage. And that’s a big difference.

Of course, these numbers are merely illustrative. Just as you picked the 1800 resistance number at random (and it’s worth noting that for many people the difference is quite a bit higher than that), I picked the 26,000 physical resistance, 27,800 spell resistance, 20,000 base incoming damage, and 3,000 self-healing numbers at random. The overall point is just that any given difference in resistances increases the net damage you take by quite a lot more than one would conclude if you just divided the resistance number by 660.

Ratzkifal wrote: »

I wouldn't say that stamina is stronger in PvP by default. We have to consider things like range and additional effects.
When comparing Magplar and Stamplar for example, the Magplar gets healed from their jabs while the stamplar doesn't, so the stamplar needs to keep using vigor to make up for it, which is less global cooldowns spent dealing damage, thus making it even easier for the magplar to heal. Stamplar also only has a stun on their javelin while magplar has a proper knockback, which is more useful as you can knock people off of things.
So it comes down to who can make better use of the tools they are given instead of just trying to compare stats, even among players of equal skill.
But sticking with the stats, the most common source of exclusive spell resistance is from light armor passives and no stamina user wears light armor. Same goes for Breton. So the argument that spell resistance is so much more common than physical resistance doesn't hold up that well, because stamina users are not actually making use of it. So what you are actually complaining about is how well magicka faces off against itself.

Now if we were talking about sets and bonus effects from skills or PvE then we could compare and see that stamina have a better arsenal right now, but the specific point about resistance you are making here doesn't hold up.

First of all, you’re ignoring that Stamplars and StamDKs—both of which are very common in PvP right now—also have significantly higher spell resistance than physical resistance. So it’s not only magicka characters that have significantly higher spell resistance than physical resistance.

Also, the fact is that lots of people play magicka classes, so doing more damage against them is a serious benefit. To illustrate this a little, if Stam characters and Magicka characters do equal damage against Stamcros, Stamblades, Stamdens, and Stamsorcs, while Stam characters do significantly more damage than Magicka characters to Stamplars, StamDKs, Magcros, Magblades, Magdens, Magsorcs, Magplars, and MagDKs, then you will do more damage in general as a Stam character. And that’s basically the scenario here, because those are the classes that all will have significantly higher spell resistance than physical resistance (with the limited exception of Magcros, Magblades, Magdens, and Mag Sorcs who go heavy armor AND aren’t a Breton).

In a sense, you could turn that around and argue that Magicka classes and Stamplars and StamDKs simply get an extra defensive benefit that the other classes don’t get (i.e. higher spell resistance), and therefore they’re stronger defensively because they fare better against magicka classes. But Stamcros/Stamblades/Stamdens/Stamsorcs have plenty of defensive benefits at their disposal that make them definitely not be more squishy (whether it’s the natural additional resistances that medium/heavy armor has over light armor, or it’s Stam-specific defensive abilities like BRP DW). Those classes aren’t less tanky than the ones with spell resistance buffs. They just have different defensive benefits that happen to mitigate Stam and magicka damage equally.