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Another reason Stam is stronger in PvP: Asymmetrical Resistance Bonuses

RiskyChalice863
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It is undeniable that stamina classes are stronger than magicka classes right now—at least for solo play and things like BGs.

There’s certainly multiple reasons for that, but I just want to highlight one that I’ve not seen people talk about: The asymmetry in the amount of spell resistance and physical resistance people have.

Most sources of resistances add to both spell resistance and physical resistance. But the ones that don’t apply to both essentially all are buffs to spell resistance and not physical resistance. This creates an asymmetry, where a good portion of players are running around with significantly higher spell resistance than physical resistance. This is true for all Templars and Dragonknights, as well as all Bretons. Moreover, players get additional spell resistance for each piece of light armor they wear, which means a large portion magicka characters will also have significantly higher spell resistance than physical resistance, and virtually everyone has at least a slight bit more. Overall, the result is that almost every player has higher spell resistances than physical resistances, and probably about two-thirds of players have quite a bit more spell resistance than physical resistance.

And the differences here can actually be pretty massive. For example, a Breton MagDK wearing five pieces of light armor will have 7425 more spell resistance than physical resistance, and 9735 more if they’re burning, chilled, or concussed. Those are huge differences. Even without the burning, chilled, or concussed status effect, you’d need the spell penetration provided by Spinners + Sharpened 2H weapon + the 4-piece bonus of New Moon Acolyte JUST to be at the same spot in terms of penetration as a stamina build that had zero penetration at all. And even if you’re instead attacking something like a Stamplar with only 1 light armor piece, you’re still looking at so much extra spell resistance compared to physical resistance that even a Sharpened trait or penetration mundus stone can’t make up for it.

The retort may be to point out that light armor gets a bunch of additional spell penetration. But that’s not really a valid counterpoint, because it ignores that medium armor get a 15% weapon damage boost that light armor doesn’t get. Light armor’s extra spell penetration isn’t making up for the higher spell resistances many players tend to have—rather, it is the alternative buff to the weapon damage buff medium armor gets.
  • madman65
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    If your a Magicka user then you can run and rolldodge without cost, Stamina users have to deal with the cost of fighting, roldDodge and running. That`s something to consider.
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  • Charon_on_Vacation
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    madman65 wrote: »
    If your a Magicka user then you can run and rolldodge without cost, Stamina users have to deal with the cost of fighting, roldDodge and running. That`s something to consider.

    would you say a stamina user that is able to use his magicka for useful stuff, for example to get major mending, is also something to consider?
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  • RiskyChalice863
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    madman65 wrote: »
    If your a Magicka user then you can run and rolldodge without cost, Stamina users have to deal with the cost of fighting, roldDodge and running. That`s something to consider.

    It’s not really without cost. Stamina resource management can actually be very difficult on a magicka character in PvP, particularly in no-CP. If you can’t break free, roll dodge, or block at the appropriate times, you will die. So you have to have the stamina resources to do that a lot.

    In any event, that’s the justification for the fact that stamina abilities cost less than magicka ones (compare costs of magicka and stamina morphs of the same ability). I don’t really think that justification makes sense, since magicka characters need to build in extra stamina resources into their build to deal with those things too. So it’s not like stamina characters have more total resource demands to sustain than magicka characters. Yet they get cheaper abilities.

    I think it’s basically something that was done with PvE in mind, where roll dodging and whatnot is essentially free since you don’t need to do it quite enough for stamina resource management to get difficult.
    Edited by RiskyChalice863 on April 12, 2020 7:29AM
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  • Kadoin
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    madman65 wrote: »
    If your a Magicka user then you can run and rolldodge without cost, Stamina users have to deal with the cost of fighting, roldDodge and running. That`s something to consider.

    Completely false. You have to still build enough stam for it which affects damage and sustain. Don't forget you sometimes need to break free two-three-four times; how much stamina is that? Also there is no real way to replenish a stam pool unless you run stam weapons or certain skills and sets - all which affect mag damage and sustain. This is even more true in noCP because there is no roll and block cost reduction CP.

    It's advantageous to use one stat pool for everything. The only mag builds that can do as you claim are closer to hybrids. And hybrids take a damage cut and/or sustain cut somewhere in their builds.

    Don't believe me? Try it yourself.

    Also nothing stops you from running mag skills on stam - literally nothing does. On mag, what stops you is either a small stam pool that is shared for stam skills and roll + blocking with no real way to regen it besides a tripotion, running stam weapons, certain sets, etc. - which is far worse than a stam build running stam skills, or even a stam build running mag skills.

    When stam needs mag to roll dodge that's when it will be equivalent, until then stop joking around with such a silly statement.
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  • JumpmanLane
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    It is undeniable that stamina classes are stronger than magicka classes right now—at least for solo play and things like BGs.

    There’s certainly multiple reasons for that, but I just want to highlight one that I’ve not seen people talk about: The asymmetry in the amount of spell resistance and physical resistance people have.

    Most sources of resistances add to both spell resistance and physical resistance. But the ones that don’t apply to both essentially all are buffs to spell resistance and not physical resistance. This creates an asymmetry, where a good portion of players are running around with significantly higher spell resistance than physical resistance. This is true for all Templars and Dragonknights, as well as all Bretons. Moreover, players get additional spell resistance for each piece of light armor they wear, which means a large portion magicka characters will also have significantly higher spell resistance than physical resistance, and virtually everyone has at least a slight bit more. Overall, the result is that almost every player has higher spell resistances than physical resistances, and probably about two-thirds of players have quite a bit more spell resistance than physical resistance.

    And the differences here can actually be pretty massive. For example, a Breton MagDK wearing five pieces of light armor will have 7425 more spell resistance than physical resistance, and 9735 more if they’re burning, chilled, or concussed. Those are huge differences. Even without the burning, chilled, or concussed status effect, you’d need the spell penetration provided by Spinners + Sharpened 2H weapon + the 4-piece bonus of New Moon Acolyte JUST to be at the same spot in terms of penetration as a stamina build that had zero penetration at all. And even if you’re instead attacking something like a Stamplar with only 1 light armor piece, you’re still looking at so much extra spell resistance compared to physical resistance that even a Sharpened trait or penetration mundus stone can’t make up for it.

    The retort may be to point out that light armor gets a bunch of additional spell penetration. But that’s not really a valid counterpoint, because it ignores that medium armor get a 15% weapon damage boost that light armor doesn’t get. Light armor’s extra spell penetration isn’t making up for the higher spell resistances many players tend to have—rather, it is the alternative buff to the weapon damage buff medium armor gets.

    Well, maybe if you’re low cp or playing no cp because cp can even it out within a few percent. Doesn’t even take much in it either.

    In the end. 50% mitigation is all you can get at resistance cap. Spell resistance and physical resistance not being equal down to the last percent is not that big of a deal, particularly when you consider the role of percentage based damage reduction (for example Minor Protection, or gear like Potentates) plays in combat calculations. Plus in the end there’s heals.

    To say “everyone” is running around with more spell resistance than physical resistance on a mag toon is just not true. Noobs might be. Lowbies might be. Folks in BG’s could be. No-Cp possibly. If they are, then part of their build has to compensate for the differences in resistance.

    In CP PvP compensating is easy enough...with CP LOL.

    Also, you may or may not of noticed how a lot of sets have been changed to provide “armor” as opposed to either spell or physical resistance. They provide both. ZOS HAS considered your point though, apparently. It’s possible to build appropriately. In the end, or at high endgame your issue is not the issue you believe it to be.

    My MagDk runs spell and physical resistances within 1% of each other.


    Edited by JumpmanLane on April 12, 2020 11:11AM
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  • precambria
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    Another reason might be that spells need to actually go off when you cast them to work and if the combo doesn't happen it rarely does anything, stam just needs to hit dizzy swing to kill something and has much higher LA/HA damage so when the servers are this broken it basically nerfs all mag players to heck, it's rough to hit things with melee when there is desync but when you do they will likely die but you cannot play mag class that requires more than 1 ability to kill things.
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  • madman65
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    Many times I have been in trials and "when" it`s mostly made up of Magicka users, they are constantly running. I have 3 Magicka builds and 1 Stamina, I have ran out of Stamina because of that. I use the Werewolf passives just for the Stamina regeneration to stay in the fight. As far as my Magiacka builds being stunned, knockback or snared I just hang back and fight in the distance like I have seen other Magicka players. My warden actually uses Stamina "Cutting Dive " help`s with use of Magicka, I use it like a timer on my rotation. My Stam build is distant AOE then up close single target, I like it because it`s fun. Bottom line in my book, Stam builds needs the resistance because of the option of getting in close (if that`s the way you have it setup) to do the damage.
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  • Ri_Khan
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    Yeah about that range thing, how close do mag characters have to be to a target before they can dump huge damage on them???
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  • WilliamESO
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    Kadoin wrote: »
    madman65 wrote: »
    If your a Magicka user then you can run and rolldodge without cost, Stamina users have to deal with the cost of fighting, roldDodge and running. That`s something to consider.

    Completely false. You have to still build enough stam for it which affects damage and sustain. Don't forget you sometimes need to break free two-three-four times; how much stamina is that? Also there is no real way to replenish a stam pool unless you run stam weapons or certain skills and sets - all which affect mag damage and sustain. This is even more true in noCP because there is no roll and block cost reduction CP.

    It's advantageous to use one stat pool for everything. The only mag builds that can do as you claim are closer to hybrids. And hybrids take a damage cut and/or sustain cut somewhere in their builds.

    Don't believe me? Try it yourself.

    Also nothing stops you from running mag skills on stam - literally nothing does. On mag, what stops you is either a small stam pool that is shared for stam skills and roll + blocking with no real way to regen it besides a tripotion, running stam weapons, certain sets, etc. - which is far worse than a stam build running stam skills, or even a stam build running mag skills.

    When stam needs mag to roll dodge that's when it will be equivalent, until then stop joking around with such a silly statement.

    Completely false good mag players use innamovable pots so they can run Block and dodge...
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  • Dracane
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    Finally someone mentions this. I wanted to say it all along, but people would have just ignored me again.
    It's a massive problem that spell resistence is so much easier to gain and there is no reason for it. Magic damage already is lower in magnitude that physical.

    Light armor gets penetration, which is mostly negated by certain classes or Bretons. So in the end, light armor has significantly worse damage than medium armor + way less ressources.

    Considering light armor looses several % of damage mitigation to all damage, it should have slightly more sustain and damage than medium to counter the fact that everything tears you apart. Or Spell Warding should be changed. Instead of granting a meager 1,8k spell resistence, it could actually follow the intended light armor playstyle of granting 1 or 2% of damage mitigation while you have a damage shield active, per piece of light armor.
    Auri-El is my lord,
    Trinimac is my shield,
    Magnus is my mind.

    My debut album on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@Gleandra/videos
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  • AMeanOne
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    madman65 wrote: »
    If your a Magicka user then you can run and rolldodge without cost, Stamina users have to deal with the cost of fighting, roldDodge and running. That`s something to consider.

    What lol? Have you ever tried pvp
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  • madman65
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    "What lol? Have you ever tried pvp'

    Does run and rolldodge cost Magicka?
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  • ku5h
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    madman65 wrote: »
    If your a Magicka user then you can run and rolldodge without cost, Stamina users have to deal with the cost of fighting, roldDodge and running. That`s something to consider.

    In general magicka classes have to invest more into stamina, then stam classes into magicka.
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  • Kali_Despoine
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    madman65 wrote: »
    "What lol? Have you ever tried pvp'

    Does run and rolldodge cost Magicka?

    no it cost stam something most of my mag toons are missing.
    rolldodge 3 times thats it
    break free 2 times in a row thats it
    no way to regen stam as we don't use dual swords any more thanks to the staff now being 2 slots

    It's why mag toons used shields, shield up and eat the damage
    then they nerf shields again and again and now they are not even tied to max mag
    want a big shield be a tank for some reason tanks need shields while they hold one in their hand

    as for (OP) yes my Breton Sorc has way more than needed spell resistance (tank like), I don't use it in PvP since I have other better stam builds for that
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  • madman65
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    I will agree with that, Magicka is difficult but if you know what you`re doing it can be achieved. It comes down to the "how you fight" scenario. I started out with Alcast builds and found that it was not for me. Gave me ideas though, in the long run I was using about 2/3rd`s of what Alcast was suggesting.
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  • Rave the Histborn
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    madman65 wrote: »
    If your a Magicka user then you can run and rolldodge without cost, Stamina users have to deal with the cost of fighting, roldDodge and running. That`s something to consider.

    Not really with such a larger pool of stamina and significantly higher regen
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  • Starlock
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    Just to remember, in a PvE context magicka-based abilities from bosses and mobs often hit harder than physical (but not always). So before we go suggesting changes again that screw up the majority of the game for PvP, consider how a fix would be implemented that leaves PvE out of it (oh wait... the devs refuse to do that).
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  • Suligost
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    Nope, its fine now, beside new vamp conist only of magicka skills that can buff them rlllly. Leave it as it is.
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  • relentless_turnip
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    I am just as good on my magdk as I am on my Stamcro. I am not as good on my stamden and magplar. The reason is simply I enjoy playing the first two more and as such have got used to playing with them a lot. This means over time I have evolved the builds of both and skills and combos have become muscle memory.

    I don't agree this mag Vs Stam argument. I believe too often people would rather make it an issue than work on the solution. Which is playing and getting better.
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  • BejaProphet
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    It is undeniable that stamina classes are stronger than magicka classes right now—at least for solo play and things like BGs.

    There’s certainly multiple reasons for that, but I just want to highlight one that I’ve not seen people talk about: The asymmetry in the amount of spell resistance and physical resistance people have.

    Most sources of resistances add to both spell resistance and physical resistance. But the ones that don’t apply to both essentially all are buffs to spell resistance and not physical resistance. This creates an asymmetry, where a good portion of players are running around with significantly higher spell resistance than physical resistance. This is true for all Templars and Dragonknights, as well as all Bretons. Moreover, players get additional spell resistance for each piece of light armor they wear, which means a large portion magicka characters will also have significantly higher spell resistance than physical resistance, and virtually everyone has at least a slight bit more. Overall, the result is that almost every player has higher spell resistances than physical resistances, and probably about two-thirds of players have quite a bit more spell resistance than physical resistance.

    And the differences here can actually be pretty massive. For example, a Breton MagDK wearing five pieces of light armor will have 7425 more spell resistance than physical resistance, and 9735 more if they’re burning, chilled, or concussed. Those are huge differences. Even without the burning, chilled, or concussed status effect, you’d need the spell penetration provided by Spinners + Sharpened 2H weapon + the 4-piece bonus of New Moon Acolyte JUST to be at the same spot in terms of penetration as a stamina build that had zero penetration at all. And even if you’re instead attacking something like a Stamplar with only 1 light armor piece, you’re still looking at so much extra spell resistance compared to physical resistance that even a Sharpened trait or penetration mundus stone can’t make up for it.

    The retort may be to point out that light armor gets a bunch of additional spell penetration. But that’s not really a valid counterpoint, because it ignores that medium armor get a 15% weapon damage boost that light armor doesn’t get. Light armor’s extra spell penetration isn’t making up for the higher spell resistances many players tend to have—rather, it is the alternative buff to the weapon damage buff medium armor gets.

    Great post. Well thought out, substantiated with numbers, and avoided hyperbolic statements.

    I hope the right people consider your post.
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  • RiskyChalice863
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    It is undeniable that stamina classes are stronger than magicka classes right now—at least for solo play and things like BGs.

    There’s certainly multiple reasons for that, but I just want to highlight one that I’ve not seen people talk about: The asymmetry in the amount of spell resistance and physical resistance people have.

    Most sources of resistances add to both spell resistance and physical resistance. But the ones that don’t apply to both essentially all are buffs to spell resistance and not physical resistance. This creates an asymmetry, where a good portion of players are running around with significantly higher spell resistance than physical resistance. This is true for all Templars and Dragonknights, as well as all Bretons. Moreover, players get additional spell resistance for each piece of light armor they wear, which means a large portion magicka characters will also have significantly higher spell resistance than physical resistance, and virtually everyone has at least a slight bit more. Overall, the result is that almost every player has higher spell resistances than physical resistances, and probably about two-thirds of players have quite a bit more spell resistance than physical resistance.

    And the differences here can actually be pretty massive. For example, a Breton MagDK wearing five pieces of light armor will have 7425 more spell resistance than physical resistance, and 9735 more if they’re burning, chilled, or concussed. Those are huge differences. Even without the burning, chilled, or concussed status effect, you’d need the spell penetration provided by Spinners + Sharpened 2H weapon + the 4-piece bonus of New Moon Acolyte JUST to be at the same spot in terms of penetration as a stamina build that had zero penetration at all. And even if you’re instead attacking something like a Stamplar with only 1 light armor piece, you’re still looking at so much extra spell resistance compared to physical resistance that even a Sharpened trait or penetration mundus stone can’t make up for it.

    The retort may be to point out that light armor gets a bunch of additional spell penetration. But that’s not really a valid counterpoint, because it ignores that medium armor get a 15% weapon damage boost that light armor doesn’t get. Light armor’s extra spell penetration isn’t making up for the higher spell resistances many players tend to have—rather, it is the alternative buff to the weapon damage buff medium armor gets.

    Well, maybe if you’re low cp or playing no cp because cp can even it out within a few percent. Doesn’t even take much in it either.

    In the end. 50% mitigation is all you can get at resistance cap. Spell resistance and physical resistance not being equal down to the last percent is not that big of a deal, particularly when you consider the role of percentage based damage reduction (for example Minor Protection, or gear like Potentates) plays in combat calculations. Plus in the end there’s heals.

    To say “everyone” is running around with more spell resistance than physical resistance on a mag toon is just not true. Noobs might be. Lowbies might be. Folks in BG’s could be. No-Cp possibly. If they are, then part of their build has to compensate for the differences in resistance.

    In CP PvP compensating is easy enough...with CP LOL.

    Also, you may or may not of noticed how a lot of sets have been changed to provide “armor” as opposed to either spell or physical resistance. They provide both. ZOS HAS considered your point though, apparently. It’s possible to build appropriately. In the end, or at high endgame your issue is not the issue you believe it to be.

    My MagDk runs spell and physical resistances within 1% of each other.


    It is true that people might not have higher spell resistance than physical resistance if they’ve used their CP to equal them out. Just anecdotally, from the many build videos I’ve watched, I don’t think many people actually do that though. As in, if you look at CP PvP build videos for stuff like DKs or Templars, they almost always have higher spell resistance than physical resistance.

    It maybe has to do with the diminishing returns you’d get on the CP points as you raise spell resistance. If there’s a several thousand difference between your spell and physical resistance without CP, then the CP investment you’ll need to make to equal them out is pretty inefficient.

    For example, a non-Breton MagDK in 5 light armor pieces would need to put 83 points into Light Armor Focus to even out the resistances. That is a very inefficient use of CP. And even that’s assuming they didn’t put any points into Spell Shield. If they put even 2 points into Spell Shield, then it would be impossible for their resistances to even out, even if they put 100 points into Light Armor Focus. Even for a non-Breton Magplar in 5 light armor pieces, it’d take 61 points into Light Armor Focus to even out the resistances. And if that Magplar put even 8 points into Spell Shield, it’d be impossible for their resistances to even out.

    There are even situations where it is not even possible to use CP to even them out. If you’ve got 5 light armor pieces with a Breton Templar or Breton DK, then it is literally not possible to use CP to even the resistances out.

    So yes, the effect of this is mitigated a bit by the fact that many people with higher innate spell resistance will perhaps put a little more CP into physical resistance. But in a large portion of the relevant cases (i.e. Templars, DKs, Bretons, and/or people in light armor), they’re quite unlikely to actually even out the resistances. In fact, it’s realistically likely that they won’t get even close to evening out the resistances, due to the diminishing marginal returns on CP.

    It is possible to try to further even it out by putting more points into Hardy than into Elemental Defender, but again the diminishing marginal returns make this a bit inefficient. In the end, if someone were really dedicated to making their Templar, DK, Breton and/or light-armor wearing character be equally vulnerable to physical and spell damage, then they could do it. But I think it’s pretty uncommon, since doing so requires some pretty inefficient CP usage.

    I’ll also note that lots of people—me included—mostly play no-CP PvP (particularly when Cyrodiil basically doesn’t work right now).
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  • RiskyChalice863
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    I am just as good on my magdk as I am on my Stamcro. I am not as good on my stamden and magplar. The reason is simply I enjoy playing the first two more and as such have got used to playing with them a lot. This means over time I have evolved the builds of both and skills and combos have become muscle memory.

    I don't agree this mag Vs Stam argument. I believe too often people would rather make it an issue than work on the solution. Which is playing and getting better.

    Well, I’m essentially trying to lead to a conclusion. I think Templar and DK should have their resistance passives apply to both spell and physical resistance. If one thinks that’ll make the classes themselves OP, then maybe lower the resistances provided slightly. And I think the light armor passive should maybe be a damage resistance bonus instead of a spell resistance one. Maybe something like 0.5% damage resistance per piece of light armor. That’d actually be a slight nerf to light armor defense against spell damage, but would mitigate damage from everyone as opposed to just magicka characters.

    Either that or magicka characters should get higher damage elsewhere to make up for this. I think that’s a less ideal solution, though, because it might unbalance PvE and could also make magicka characters hit too hard in PvP against people who don’t have higher spell resistance than physical resistance.

    Another option would be to rework something somewhere so that certain classes or races actually get a bonus to physical resistance and not to spell resistance. This would allow Templars, DKs, and Bretons to retain their flavor of being more resistant to spells, while being more balanced from an overall standpoint, as there’d be characters that stamina players would hit less hard against too.

    Right now, the difference is just really big in many situations. In terms of PvP, I primarily play no-CP PvP on magicka characters (mostly Magplar and a Breton MagDK, with a good bit of time on a light-armor wearing Magblade and light-armor wearing Magden as well). And I can tell you that it’s a huge difference. I basically don’t fear dying in BGs to other magicka characters. Sure, it can happen if someone is really good, or if a Mag Sorc gets lucky and gets a bunch of Frags up really quickly, or if I’m caught out of resources. But there are pretty regularly stamina players that I realize I just have to run away from if I see them because they will basically just delete me during one stun window if there’s any delay on breaking free (which there often is). I just don’t have that experience against other magicka players. Part of that is that there’s a little more innate burst in the stamina kit and part of it is also that I’m convinced Dizzying Swing creates desyncs (and I KNOW Snipe does, though I basically don’t fear Snipe spammers unless it does actually desync me). But a good bit of it is that my characters all have considerably more spell resistance than physical resistance, so a stamina character will kill me much quicker than an equally strong magicka character would.
    Edited by RiskyChalice863 on April 12, 2020 7:37PM
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  • JumpmanLane
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    It is undeniable that stamina classes are stronger than magicka classes right now—at least for solo play and things like BGs.

    There’s certainly multiple reasons for that, but I just want to highlight one that I’ve not seen people talk about: The asymmetry in the amount of spell resistance and physical resistance people have.

    Most sources of resistances add to both spell resistance and physical resistance. But the ones that don’t apply to both essentially all are buffs to spell resistance and not physical resistance. This creates an asymmetry, where a good portion of players are running around with significantly higher spell resistance than physical resistance. This is true for all Templars and Dragonknights, as well as all Bretons. Moreover, players get additional spell resistance for each piece of light armor they wear, which means a large portion magicka characters will also have significantly higher spell resistance than physical resistance, and virtually everyone has at least a slight bit more. Overall, the result is that almost every player has higher spell resistances than physical resistances, and probably about two-thirds of players have quite a bit more spell resistance than physical resistance.

    And the differences here can actually be pretty massive. For example, a Breton MagDK wearing five pieces of light armor will have 7425 more spell resistance than physical resistance, and 9735 more if they’re burning, chilled, or concussed. Those are huge differences. Even without the burning, chilled, or concussed status effect, you’d need the spell penetration provided by Spinners + Sharpened 2H weapon + the 4-piece bonus of New Moon Acolyte JUST to be at the same spot in terms of penetration as a stamina build that had zero penetration at all. And even if you’re instead attacking something like a Stamplar with only 1 light armor piece, you’re still looking at so much extra spell resistance compared to physical resistance that even a Sharpened trait or penetration mundus stone can’t make up for it.

    The retort may be to point out that light armor gets a bunch of additional spell penetration. But that’s not really a valid counterpoint, because it ignores that medium armor get a 15% weapon damage boost that light armor doesn’t get. Light armor’s extra spell penetration isn’t making up for the higher spell resistances many players tend to have—rather, it is the alternative buff to the weapon damage buff medium armor gets.

    Well, maybe if you’re low cp or playing no cp because cp can even it out within a few percent. Doesn’t even take much in it either.

    In the end. 50% mitigation is all you can get at resistance cap. Spell resistance and physical resistance not being equal down to the last percent is not that big of a deal, particularly when you consider the role of percentage based damage reduction (for example Minor Protection, or gear like Potentates) plays in combat calculations. Plus in the end there’s heals.

    To say “everyone” is running around with more spell resistance than physical resistance on a mag toon is just not true. Noobs might be. Lowbies might be. Folks in BG’s could be. No-Cp possibly. If they are, then part of their build has to compensate for the differences in resistance.

    In CP PvP compensating is easy enough...with CP LOL.

    Also, you may or may not of noticed how a lot of sets have been changed to provide “armor” as opposed to either spell or physical resistance. They provide both. ZOS HAS considered your point though, apparently. It’s possible to build appropriately. In the end, or at high endgame your issue is not the issue you believe it to be.

    My MagDk runs spell and physical resistances within 1% of each other.


    It is true that people might not have higher spell resistance than physical resistance if they’ve used their CP to equal them out. Just anecdotally, from the many build videos I’ve watched, I don’t think many people actually do that though. As in, if you look at CP PvP build videos for stuff like DKs or Templars, they almost always have higher spell resistance than physical resistance.

    It maybe has to do with the diminishing returns you’d get on the CP points as you raise spell resistance. If there’s a several thousand difference between your spell and physical resistance without CP, then the CP investment you’ll need to make to equal them out is pretty inefficient.

    For example, a non-Breton MagDK in 5 light armor pieces would need to put 83 points into Light Armor Focus to even out the resistances. That is a very inefficient use of CP. And even that’s assuming they didn’t put any points into Spell Shield. If they put even 2 points into Spell Shield, then it would be impossible for their resistances to even out, even if they put 100 points into Light Armor Focus. Even for a non-Breton Magplar in 5 light armor pieces, it’d take 61 points into Light Armor Focus to even out the resistances. And if that Magplar put even 8 points into Spell Shield, it’d be impossible for their resistances to even out.

    There are even situations where it is not even possible to use CP to even them out. If you’ve got 5 light armor pieces with a Breton Templar or Breton DK, then it is literally not possible to use CP to even the resistances out.

    So yes, the effect of this is mitigated a bit by the fact that many people with higher innate spell resistance will perhaps put a little more CP into physical resistance. But in a large portion of the relevant cases (i.e. Templars, DKs, Bretons, and/or people in light armor), they’re quite unlikely to actually even out the resistances. In fact, it’s realistically likely that they won’t get even close to evening out the resistances, due to the diminishing marginal returns on CP.

    It is possible to try to further even it out by putting more points into Hardy than into Elemental Defender, but again the diminishing marginal returns make this a bit inefficient. In the end, if someone were really dedicated to making their Templar, DK, Breton and/or light-armor wearing character be equally vulnerable to physical and spell damage, then they could do it. But I think it’s pretty uncommon, since doing so requires some pretty inefficient CP usage.

    I’ll also note that lots of people—me included—mostly play no-CP PvP (particularly when Cyrodiil basically doesn’t work right now).

    Most builds you find online are trash. That aside, you’re right about diminishing returns in that ultimately all you’d mitigate is 50% at cap.

    With relatively little allocation into Light Armor Focus (in light) or Heavy Armor Focus it’s possible go a Mag toon to lessen the gap between their spell and physical resistances to the point where it just doesn’t matter, the gap.

    Let’s pick a number at random. Let’s say you can get the number to say 1800 (that is 1800 difference between spell and physical resistances). That would be like 2.7% difference in the amount one could mitigate.

    This wouldn’t matter at all when you factor in all the other forms of lessening damage in combat: blocking, %damage reduction, heals even. Isolated and taken out of context, difference between spell and physical resistances just doesn’t matter that much the closer a toon’s resistances approach the cap. It really only matters for low resistance. And those folks are Squish to begin with.

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  • WoppaBoem
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    Making builds now for over 2 years, I stopped making mag builds. On stam its so easy to get sustain and resources you need health and stam. To get good 3 resource pools for mag character mag, health and stam you are climbing a very tough up hill battle. Ether your sustain is bad or you damage is bad. On stam you have it all, good healing, tankiness, mobility, sustain and loads of damage, the inbalance for me as designed many builds is so big I stopped playing my characters all together. I still see magsorcs work due to streak and magwarden due to good sustain and minor beserk but thats about it.

    And yes loads of magplars and stuff, stamplars are better in the right hands, same for all the classes.
    Xbox EU & NA - PVP Only
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  • RiskyChalice863
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    It is undeniable that stamina classes are stronger than magicka classes right now—at least for solo play and things like BGs.

    There’s certainly multiple reasons for that, but I just want to highlight one that I’ve not seen people talk about: The asymmetry in the amount of spell resistance and physical resistance people have.

    Most sources of resistances add to both spell resistance and physical resistance. But the ones that don’t apply to both essentially all are buffs to spell resistance and not physical resistance. This creates an asymmetry, where a good portion of players are running around with significantly higher spell resistance than physical resistance. This is true for all Templars and Dragonknights, as well as all Bretons. Moreover, players get additional spell resistance for each piece of light armor they wear, which means a large portion magicka characters will also have significantly higher spell resistance than physical resistance, and virtually everyone has at least a slight bit more. Overall, the result is that almost every player has higher spell resistances than physical resistances, and probably about two-thirds of players have quite a bit more spell resistance than physical resistance.

    And the differences here can actually be pretty massive. For example, a Breton MagDK wearing five pieces of light armor will have 7425 more spell resistance than physical resistance, and 9735 more if they’re burning, chilled, or concussed. Those are huge differences. Even without the burning, chilled, or concussed status effect, you’d need the spell penetration provided by Spinners + Sharpened 2H weapon + the 4-piece bonus of New Moon Acolyte JUST to be at the same spot in terms of penetration as a stamina build that had zero penetration at all. And even if you’re instead attacking something like a Stamplar with only 1 light armor piece, you’re still looking at so much extra spell resistance compared to physical resistance that even a Sharpened trait or penetration mundus stone can’t make up for it.

    The retort may be to point out that light armor gets a bunch of additional spell penetration. But that’s not really a valid counterpoint, because it ignores that medium armor get a 15% weapon damage boost that light armor doesn’t get. Light armor’s extra spell penetration isn’t making up for the higher spell resistances many players tend to have—rather, it is the alternative buff to the weapon damage buff medium armor gets.

    Well, maybe if you’re low cp or playing no cp because cp can even it out within a few percent. Doesn’t even take much in it either.

    In the end. 50% mitigation is all you can get at resistance cap. Spell resistance and physical resistance not being equal down to the last percent is not that big of a deal, particularly when you consider the role of percentage based damage reduction (for example Minor Protection, or gear like Potentates) plays in combat calculations. Plus in the end there’s heals.

    To say “everyone” is running around with more spell resistance than physical resistance on a mag toon is just not true. Noobs might be. Lowbies might be. Folks in BG’s could be. No-Cp possibly. If they are, then part of their build has to compensate for the differences in resistance.

    In CP PvP compensating is easy enough...with CP LOL.

    Also, you may or may not of noticed how a lot of sets have been changed to provide “armor” as opposed to either spell or physical resistance. They provide both. ZOS HAS considered your point though, apparently. It’s possible to build appropriately. In the end, or at high endgame your issue is not the issue you believe it to be.

    My MagDk runs spell and physical resistances within 1% of each other.


    It is true that people might not have higher spell resistance than physical resistance if they’ve used their CP to equal them out. Just anecdotally, from the many build videos I’ve watched, I don’t think many people actually do that though. As in, if you look at CP PvP build videos for stuff like DKs or Templars, they almost always have higher spell resistance than physical resistance.

    It maybe has to do with the diminishing returns you’d get on the CP points as you raise spell resistance. If there’s a several thousand difference between your spell and physical resistance without CP, then the CP investment you’ll need to make to equal them out is pretty inefficient.

    For example, a non-Breton MagDK in 5 light armor pieces would need to put 83 points into Light Armor Focus to even out the resistances. That is a very inefficient use of CP. And even that’s assuming they didn’t put any points into Spell Shield. If they put even 2 points into Spell Shield, then it would be impossible for their resistances to even out, even if they put 100 points into Light Armor Focus. Even for a non-Breton Magplar in 5 light armor pieces, it’d take 61 points into Light Armor Focus to even out the resistances. And if that Magplar put even 8 points into Spell Shield, it’d be impossible for their resistances to even out.

    There are even situations where it is not even possible to use CP to even them out. If you’ve got 5 light armor pieces with a Breton Templar or Breton DK, then it is literally not possible to use CP to even the resistances out.

    So yes, the effect of this is mitigated a bit by the fact that many people with higher innate spell resistance will perhaps put a little more CP into physical resistance. But in a large portion of the relevant cases (i.e. Templars, DKs, Bretons, and/or people in light armor), they’re quite unlikely to actually even out the resistances. In fact, it’s realistically likely that they won’t get even close to evening out the resistances, due to the diminishing marginal returns on CP.

    It is possible to try to further even it out by putting more points into Hardy than into Elemental Defender, but again the diminishing marginal returns make this a bit inefficient. In the end, if someone were really dedicated to making their Templar, DK, Breton and/or light-armor wearing character be equally vulnerable to physical and spell damage, then they could do it. But I think it’s pretty uncommon, since doing so requires some pretty inefficient CP usage.

    I’ll also note that lots of people—me included—mostly play no-CP PvP (particularly when Cyrodiil basically doesn’t work right now).

    Most builds you find online are trash. That aside, you’re right about diminishing returns in that ultimately all you’d mitigate is 50% at cap.

    With relatively little allocation into Light Armor Focus (in light) or Heavy Armor Focus it’s possible go a Mag toon to lessen the gap between their spell and physical resistances to the point where it just doesn’t matter, the gap.

    Let’s pick a number at random. Let’s say you can get the number to say 1800 (that is 1800 difference between spell and physical resistances). That would be like 2.7% difference in the amount one could mitigate.

    This wouldn’t matter at all when you factor in all the other forms of lessening damage in combat: blocking, %damage reduction, heals even. Isolated and taken out of context, difference between spell and physical resistances just doesn’t matter that much the closer a toon’s resistances approach the cap. It really only matters for low resistance. And those folks are Squish to begin with.

    I’d argue 1800 resistances is actually quite a big difference.

    I realize 1800/660 = 2.7, but it’s really more than 2.7% in reality.

    For instance, let’s say you have 26,000 physical resistance and 27,800 spell resistance. And let’s say you have minor protection, and you have an extra 10% mitigation of physical and magic damage from CP (i.e. Hardy and Elemental Defender). Now, let’s say you get hit by 20,000 base damage. If that were physical damage, you’d take 5,018 damage. But if that were magic damage, you’d take 4,792 damage. In other words, you’d take 4.72% more physical damage than magic damage, due to that 1800 resistance difference. The reason for this is that, while 1800/660 = 2.7, extra resistances are effectively additive. In other words, in effect, in this example, the physical resistances multiply all physical damage by 0.606–because ((26000/660)-100)/100 = 0.606)—while the spell resistances multiply all spell damage by 0.579–because ((27800/660)-100)/100 = 0.579. And 0.606/0.579 = 1.047.

    And that’s not even taking into account the issue of net damage. The biggest reason buffs like Minor Berserk are such a big deal despite looking like relatively low damage increase numbers is that people’s healing essentially makes any percent damage increase higher than it looks in terms of net damage. Let’s take the above example. Let’s say you are actually doing 3,000 self-healing during that time period. That would mean that if the damage were physical damage, you’d end up losing a net of 2,018 health, while you’d lose only 1,792 health if it were magic damage. So, suddenly, when you take that healing into account, that 1800 resistance difference means you are taking 12.6% more net damage if the incoming damage is physical damage compared to if it’s spell damage. And that’s a big difference.

    Of course, these numbers are merely illustrative. Just as you picked the 1800 resistance number at random (and it’s worth noting that for many people the difference is quite a bit higher than that), I picked the 26,000 physical resistance, 27,800 spell resistance, 20,000 base incoming damage, and 3,000 self-healing numbers at random. The overall point is just that any given difference in resistances increases the net damage you take by quite a lot more than one would conclude if you just divided the resistance number by 660.


    Edited by RiskyChalice863 on April 12, 2020 9:34PM
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  • Ratzkifal
    Ratzkifal
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    I wouldn't say that stamina is stronger in PvP by default. We have to consider things like range and additional effects.
    When comparing Magplar and Stamplar for example, the Magplar gets healed from their jabs while the stamplar doesn't, so the stamplar needs to keep using vigor to make up for it, which is less global cooldowns spent dealing damage, thus making it even easier for the magplar to heal. Stamplar also only has a stun on their javelin while magplar has a proper knockback, which is more useful as you can knock people off of things.
    So it comes down to who can make better use of the tools they are given instead of just trying to compare stats, even among players of equal skill.
    But sticking with the stats, the most common source of exclusive spell resistance is from light armor passives and no stamina user wears light armor. Same goes for Breton. So the argument that spell resistance is so much more common than physical resistance doesn't hold up that well, because stamina users are not actually making use of it. So what you are actually complaining about is how well magicka faces off against itself.

    Now if we were talking about sets and bonus effects from skills or PvE then we could compare and see that stamina have a better arsenal right now, but the specific point about resistance you are making here doesn't hold up.
    Edited by Ratzkifal on April 13, 2020 3:10AM
    This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.
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  • RiskyChalice863
    RiskyChalice863
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    Ratzkifal wrote: »
    I wouldn't say that stamina is stronger in PvP by default. We have to consider things like range and additional effects.
    When comparing Magplar and Stamplar for example, the Magplar gets healed from their jabs while the stamplar doesn't, so the stamplar needs to keep using vigor to make up for it, which is less global cooldowns spent dealing damage, thus making it even easier for the magplar to heal. Stamplar also only has a stun on their javelin while magplar has a proper knockback, which is more useful as you can knock people off of things.
    So it comes down to who can make better use of the tools they are given instead of just trying to compare stats, even among players of equal skill.
    But sticking with the stats, the most common source of exclusive spell resistance is from light armor passives and no stamina user wears light armor. Same goes for Breton. So the argument that spell resistance is so much more common than physical resistance doesn't hold up that well, because stamina users are not actually making use of it. So what you are actually complaining about is how well magicka faces off against itself.

    Now if we were talking about sets and bonus effects from skills or PvE then we could compare and see that stamina have a better arsenal right now, but the specific point about resistance you are making here doesn't hold up.

    First of all, you’re ignoring that Stamplars and StamDKs—both of which are very common in PvP right now—also have significantly higher spell resistance than physical resistance. So it’s not only magicka characters that have significantly higher spell resistance than physical resistance.

    Also, the fact is that lots of people play magicka classes, so doing more damage against them is a serious benefit. To illustrate this a little, if Stam characters and Magicka characters do equal damage against Stamcros, Stamblades, Stamdens, and Stamsorcs, while Stam characters do significantly more damage than Magicka characters to Stamplars, StamDKs, Magcros, Magblades, Magdens, Magsorcs, Magplars, and MagDKs, then you will do more damage in general as a Stam character. And that’s basically the scenario here, because those are the classes that all will have significantly higher spell resistance than physical resistance (with the limited exception of Magcros, Magblades, Magdens, and Mag Sorcs who go heavy armor AND aren’t a Breton).

    In a sense, you could turn that around and argue that Magicka classes and Stamplars and StamDKs simply get an extra defensive benefit that the other classes don’t get (i.e. higher spell resistance), and therefore they’re stronger defensively because they fare better against magicka classes. But Stamcros/Stamblades/Stamdens/Stamsorcs have plenty of defensive benefits at their disposal that make them definitely not be more squishy (whether it’s the natural additional resistances that medium/heavy armor has over light armor, or it’s Stam-specific defensive abilities like BRP DW). Those classes aren’t less tanky than the ones with spell resistance buffs. They just have different defensive benefits that happen to mitigate Stam and magicka damage equally.
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