How much time commitment is required to "get good" at weaving - being good enough to do all content.

Red_Feather · April 2020

Took me less time than dribbling a basketball. It's muscle memory. You just do it without thinking.

rpa · April 2020

Other (explain below)

Target dummy does not move and fight back, so for me it is testing only and little use for learning howto dps in practical fight. A boss with lots of health and avoidable attacks makes much better practice dummy.

Now I just need to find motivation to actually do it in this game. Thats the hard part.

graybeardII · April 2020

Sanctum74 wrote: »

graybeardII wrote: »

Well I dont know
Ive been beating my head aganst the wall for over 6 months i can get la to fire reliably and I cant get over 24,400 dps to save my life I'm so flustrated i could just spit

Then it sounds like it’s more of a gear or rotation problem, not weaving.

Well I'm open to suggestions
5 julianos 5 mothers Sorrow all gold and divine 2 iceheart helm from gold vender hevey helm medium sholders Devine trait all gold following alcast solo templur build and rotation. Looking to get 30 to 45k dps to do vet dungens and non dlc vet trials i changes harness magic to purifying light to get to the 24k i have.
Thanks in advance for any help

Sanctum74 · April 2020

20 minutes on a target dummy

graybeardII wrote: »

Sanctum74 wrote: »

graybeardII wrote: »

Well I dont know
Ive been beating my head aganst the wall for over 6 months i can get la to fire reliably and I cant get over 24,400 dps to save my life I'm so flustrated i could just spit

Then it sounds like it’s more of a gear or rotation problem, not weaving.

Well I'm open to suggestions
5 julianos 5 mothers Sorrow all gold and divine 2 iceheart helm from gold vender hevey helm medium sholders Devine trait all gold following alcast solo templur build and rotation. Looking to get 30 to 45k dps to do vet dungens and non dlc vet trials i changes harness magic to purifying light to get to the 24k i have.
Thanks in advance for any help

There’s a lot of dots and buffs in that build all with different durations so it can be tricky to keep them up 100% Sometimes you gotta add or remove things to match your play style. It would be nice if buffs and skills were more standardized in duration, but in the meantime if you are on pc a buff tracker would be helpful, but console scrubs like me we gotta wing it.

Kr3do · April 2020

20 minutes on a target dummy

20 minutes is already a lot. All you have to do is press mouse 1 between your skills.

Sanguinor2 · April 2020

Other (explain below)

What does "all Content" refer to? For atleast 90% of the Content you dont Need to practice it at all and just get a heavy attack build and find People of similar mind.
Dont believe me? Vmol dps checks are 4 years old and have been nerfed, a Progression Group I helped out 3 years ago cleared vmol with 4 heavy attack petsorcs and we still met dps checks without 3 years worth of power creep aka no Major vuln, no MK, no Zen, no Olorime, no Zaan, no Lokke, no Rele, no Siroria, with a lot less cp, no 5 5 2 builds on mag (those only came with Summerset) much weaker light attack Damage (pre Summerset) etc.
Vhof is 3 years old, has just been nerfed and was cleared with morro dps Level. The dps check on 2nd boss hardly is one since the Lightning beam will do near all of the work upstairs. Spider you can Play slow (when I first cleared Vhof we went through 5 or 6 phases), at 4th boss you only Need to kill the Bombers, if you have Trouble with that you can have some People drop a destro on top of the ranged boss. On last boss the execute Phase is a dps check which you can prolong by using defensive ults such as nova and the resting Phase where you have to kill 2 terminals which 3 dds should also be able to manage, you can make it 4 too but then adds will take longer, if you want to take it really slow you can kill the adds before the boss goes into resting Phase and then only have the terminals to deal with which at this Point will be really easy.
Vas+0 has exactly one dps check which is killing the protector before the next one spawns, which might even be doable without using abilities.
The only dps check in Vcr+0 is the Crystals in the Shadow Realm and if you struggle with 2 dds you can take 3 or even 4 dds per Group and it should be very easy to get the 3 orbs.
In Vss non hm there are dps checks but they can be met if you Play it slow and have good tanks. On the Ice boss you can turn around and kill the Lightning Atros if your tank feels like there are too many adds to deal with before the flight Phase starts, on the fire boss you can have some People turn around and kill the flame atronarchs if your tank gets overwhelmed, generally getting 3 iron atronarchs is Trouble, but that happens after 3 minutes or something, to avoid the 3rd atronarch spawn without turing around you Need every dd to deal About 25k dps, perfectly doable without being a light attacking tryhard and tanking 2 iron atros and 4 flame atros is perfectly possible too, I did it on pts with 400 ping.
What applies to all of These slower clears is that you will have to Play mechanics more often but that shouldnt be too much of a Problem once everyone practices them some, you might even get a lunar but that one is perfectly doable too so no Need to worry About it. And it will also take a lot more time than a regular clear will.

If you want to get Godslayer on the other Hand then you better take the time to practice.

carlos424 · April 2020

Several days of practicing on a target dummy.

graybeardII wrote: »

Sanctum74 wrote: »

graybeardII wrote: »

Well I dont know
Ive been beating my head aganst the wall for over 6 months i can get la to fire reliably and I cant get over 24,400 dps to save my life I'm so flustrated i could just spit

Then it sounds like it’s more of a gear or rotation problem, not weaving.

Well I'm open to suggestions
5 julianos 5 mothers Sorrow all gold and divine 2 iceheart helm from gold vender hevey helm medium sholders Devine trait all gold following alcast solo templur build and rotation. Looking to get 30 to 45k dps to do vet dungens and non dlc vet trials i changes harness magic to purifying light to get to the 24k i have.
Thanks in advance for any help

Ya, templar is a little more difficult since purifying light (your best/hardest hitting skill) is every 6 seconds, where everything else is 10. But even a static rotation, where you use purifying light once on the front bar should be enough to do adequate dps. Would also be advantageous to get a normal trials set like normal false gods/sororia for more dps. With the 3-piece bonus alone (minor slayer), you will see an immediate jump in dps numbers. There are always people running nss or ncr, so it shouldn’t be hard to pug.

Aptonoth · April 2020

Other (explain below)

It took me 20 minutes lol.

ZOS_Lunar · April 2020

Hi there! We've removed some posts from this thread for violating our rules on bashing/baiting.

It’s okay to disagree and debate on the official ESO forums, but we do ask that you keep all disagreements civil, constructive, and on-topic.

Austinseph1 · April 2020

20 minutes on a target dummy

Most content can be cleared with mediocre dps if you follow mechanics properly, it's when you get into the region of skipping them that things get wonky. The lower your damage is the harder fights become, but it's still doable of you take the time to learn the fights.

TokenIntellect · April 2020

Other (explain below)

This is just getting silly now.

@ZOS_BrianWheeler has made it clear that they're not going to be touching the LA/AC/Weaving status quo at least through Greymoor. In my opinion, that's an absolute shame, because the current gameplay is mechanistic (rather than being actually fast-paced, i.e., requiring quick thinking) and mechanical (rather than being fluid, i.e., one action flowing seamlessly into the next).

So what's this fixation on the time it takes to "get good" at weaving?

It'd be entirely possible that the OP meant to show that the investment of time was far greater than many people want to acknowledge, but I don't get that impression, especially with the "All I had to do was watch a video and I mastered it instantly" sorts of responses. What it seems designed to do is to trash the people who dared to complain about the game mechanics. After all, if it only takes someone 20 minutes to learn weaving (according to the plurality of respondents), then it's not that the complainers can't weave it's that they won't take the time to learn. It's their fault and we should ignore them. Right?

Well, no.

As @Linaleah points out, there are other factors that could interfere with "getting good" from latency to age to natural ability to something like repetitive stress injury. This is why putting some more quests in to force you to learn to weave (one of the more popular solutions on PTS) is still just ridiculous. Spending oodles of time beating up on a dummy doesn't fix latency. It doesn't make you younger. It doesn't change your natural response times. And it doesn't help with injury— and when you actually get to the harder content that does indeed require weaving, the game aggravates it.

Developing muscle memory is not the solution either. It's like any learned skill from throwing a ball to driving a car. There's a point when you're developing the skill that you cannot really appreciate the experience. Then you get enough automaticity that you can actually enjoy what you're doing. Before too long, however, it becomes so familiar that it's just not interesting anymore. It's like if you've ever driven somewhere and you know you payed attention and reacted just like you're supposed to but have no real memory of the drive afterward. The only way to keep the dopamine hits coming is to keep people in that middle state— competent and confident, but always needing to react to some challenge to their skill. If ZOS does that successfully then "getting good" should be a never-ending process.

One of the most potent observations from the original PTS post wasn't just that there was a skill gap that had grown too wide, it's that closing the skill gap wasn't enjoyable. Could it be that one of the reasons is that skill explains only a small part of the difference in player performance? What happens if we factor in age, ability, connection, server hardware, client hardware, and anything else that could prevent a smooth rotation? If you were faced with a never-ending process and no hope of ever being good enough, even for a moment, how much would you enjoy it?

So no matter how much time you spent "getting good," that has absolutely no bearing on whether it's even possible for someone else, much less the amount time time it might take if it is.

LadyNalcarya · April 2020

Several days of practicing on a target dummy.

Took me a few days to get used to it after someone explained it to me. But I obviously didn't play all day and training dummies didnt exist back then so I just learned to weave while playing normally. It should be faster with a training dummy I guess. The concept is pretty simple, I'm not sure why people tend to overcomplicate it so much.

Shantu · April 2020

Other (explain below)

This seems like a rather obvious answer. It really depends on the motor and perceptual skills of the player mixed with how committed they are to practice. When I first started LA weaving I thought there was no way I was going to do this well. But now during a fight or a parse I can't even tell you for sure if I'm doing it...but I am. After awhile muscle memory takes over and you don't even have to think about it.

Linaleah · April 2020

Other (explain below)

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

Took me a few days to get used to it after someone explained it to me. But I obviously didn't play all day and training dummies didnt exist back then so I just learned to weave while playing normally. It should be faster with a training dummy I guess. The concept is pretty simple, I'm not sure why people tend to overcomplicate it so much.

simplicity of concept =/= ease of execution.

every time people bring up how easy weaving is, I keep remembering some of the times I tried teaching other people things that I found easy. creative things. simple things. or the time when i went to a sip and paint event and if you have ever done those - you know that not only they deliberately chose the simplest possible designs but also break them down to even simpler components to make them as accessible as possible. and yet... people couldn't execute them to look even remotely like a sample painting.

on a flip side, I also know disturbingly a lot of people who pick up a new skill, and just... ace it. almost immediately. bonus points when its something that took me personaly years to get semi decent at.... and they surpass me in a few months, sometimes even few weeks.

and that... is the point. if I were to guess bulk of the people who post on gaming forums - tend to fall into a second category when it comes to gaming. which creates this biased idea that there is totally no problem here what so ever and everyone else is just not trying hard enough. yeahno.

exeeter702 · April 2020

Other (explain below)

As much as I hate indulging such ridiculous poll threads....

What if I told you I was already weaving and "animation canceling" before I even knew those were things by the time I hit 50 back in year one if this game.

Miraslova · April 2020

I don't see what's so hard about it, it's not rocket science.

SidraWillowsky · April 2020

It's hard to get to that level and maintain a job

Linaleah wrote: »

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

Took me a few days to get used to it after someone explained it to me. But I obviously didn't play all day and training dummies didnt exist back then so I just learned to weave while playing normally. It should be faster with a training dummy I guess. The concept is pretty simple, I'm not sure why people tend to overcomplicate it so much.

simplicity of concept =/= ease of execution.

every time people bring up how easy weaving is, I keep remembering some of the times I tried teaching other people things that I found easy. creative things. simple things. or the time when i went to a sip and paint event and if you have ever done those - you know that not only they deliberately chose the simplest possible designs but also break them down to even simpler components to make them as accessible as possible. and yet... people couldn't execute them to look even remotely like a sample painting.

on a flip side, I also know disturbingly a lot of people who pick up a new skill, and just... ace it. almost immediately. bonus points when its something that took me personaly years to get semi decent at.... and they surpass me in a few months, sometimes even few weeks.

and that... is the point. if I were to guess bulk of the people who post on gaming forums - tend to fall into a second category when it comes to gaming. which creates this biased idea that there is totally no problem here what so ever and everyone else is just not trying hard enough. yeahno.

This times a million. I'm glad I already know how to weave because if I didn't and was reading this post, I'd feel like a total scrub. It took me a lot if work to be able to do it well. Yes, it's a simple concept but it takes time to get it into muscle memory and learn what works for you and how to time various skills. And then there's bar swap canceling and getting LAs in before and after a bar swap. I'm sure it's dead easy for some people, but if that were truly the case on a more universal level, there would be far, far fewer forum posts complaining about it, fewer guides, etc.

I think it's easy to forget that once it's muscle memory, it's actually more difficult to NOT LA weave. But remember what it took to get there....

SidraWillowsky · April 2020

It's hard to get to that level and maintain a job

graybeardII wrote: »

Sanctum74 wrote: »

graybeardII wrote: »

Well I dont know
Ive been beating my head aganst the wall for over 6 months i can get la to fire reliably and I cant get over 24,400 dps to save my life I'm so flustrated i could just spit

Then it sounds like it’s more of a gear or rotation problem, not weaving.

Well I'm open to suggestions
5 julianos 5 mothers Sorrow all gold and divine 2 iceheart helm from gold vender hevey helm medium sholders Devine trait all gold following alcast solo templur build and rotation. Looking to get 30 to 45k dps to do vet dungens and non dlc vet trials i changes harness magic to purifying light to get to the 24k i have.
Thanks in advance for any help

Magplars is tricky and is one of the classes that I can't seem to get the hang of. I would not recommend using Iceheart as your everyday monster set at this point- it got nerfed pretty hard and I only use it for some solo content and, at times, vet content when group is working on the mechanics of something and it's more important to get the hang of the mechs than it is get my DPS super high.

Zaan is gonna be the strongest monster set, but I'm guessing you don't have it yet (soon!). If you have it, try Valkyn Skoria or even Grothdaar... I wear Groth on my Magplar since my Zaan lives with my main and I don't actually like Skoria all that much. Regardless, take Iceheart off for parsing.

You could try the following:

Back bar: unstable wall, ritual of retribution, solar barrage, barbed trap, Channeled focus, sweeps ulti. Front bar: blazing spear, elemental weapon/force pulse (if you run FP, Illambris would be a good monster set), Purifying Light, Jesus Beam, Degeneration, either morph of the mages guild ulti.

Keep Spear up at all times- you need it for Burning Light. A simple rotation could be trap -> wall -> barrage -> swap -> spear -> Purifying Light -> spam Ele Weap or pulse about three times -> Purifying -> spam x3 -> swap -> repeat til 25%.

A simple execute could involve keeping up Trap and Spear and then just hitting PL and 3x Jesus Beam in between.

Everest_Lionheart · April 2020

Weaving is easy, sustain is the harder part for me. I realize that has to do with equipment and CP as well so in time I will get there. I can expect big numbers only one month into the game. Had my guild help me craft some armour for now and will try to get the weapons on my own. Other than that it’s an RPG so I expect to grind the experience a bit to get the CP to support my numbers.

I think chasing the numbers is a boring way to play the game in the end. If only there was some quests we could do to break the monotony of always grinding for gear and CP. 😆

thorwyn · April 2020

As many people already pointed out, there is absolutely no need to weave in order to play most of the content in ESO. If you want to have a shot at the absolute endgame content, you need to go the extra mile and maximize the efficiency of your character. And in ESO, that requires a certain level of skill development and practicing. And if, for some reason, you can not reach that level of skill because of lag, physical handicaps or whatever, then it's bad luck. It is impossible to make everything accessible for everybody without destroying the last bit of challenge and required effort and it is not the job of a game to provide a work around for individual constrains.
The game is as it is. It is the same thing with each and every game. Want to get good at chess? Learn and practice. Got a bad short term memory? Well, you can still play chess, but you will probably never become champion of your local club.

Elwendryll · April 2020

Other (explain below)

Define being good?

Light attack weaving? Takes 2 minutes to understand.

Getting a good LA/s ratio ?
Takes hours of practice.

Then, being able to perform your rotation as instinctively as you breath and maintain very good LA/s ratio while getting all your focus on properly executing the mechanics in real situations?
You might end up skipping some hours of sleep to get intimate with your dummy during night.

The concept is very easy to understand and apply. Building the muscle memory on the other hand takes time, and you'll need it to clear harder content.

And then you can sprinkle your rotation with bashes, etc...

Gaebriel0410 · April 2020

I've played a musical instrument since many years, so pressing buttons rhythmically in certain order took me about a minute to get familiar with. However I do think that it's a good thing that they're looking at finetuning the need for it in combat, as IMO it gets fairly tedious and straining if you do a set rotation consecutively for long periods of time. Also at that point it starts to feel almost robotic, which is really not what I prefer in a game. So while I could probably keep up with some mega bis omg bbq rotation, I tend to be a bit more relaxed with it. You don't need hundreds of deeps anyways, unless perhaps when doing timed leaderboard runs but that's content I'm not interested in.

ZeroXFF · April 2020

Several days of practicing on a target dummy.

Red_Feather wrote: »

Took me less time than dribbling a basketball. It's muscle memory. You just do it without thinking.

In other words: it's a mindless activity.

thorwyn · April 2020

In other words: it's a mindless activity.

It is as mindless as pressing the keys on the piano in the right oder.

Zelos · April 2020

Assuming that the content you want to play works properly? Not long, I was able to pick it up in less then an hour of just parsing on a dummy way long ago.

technohic · April 2020

Other (explain below)

I think just knowing about it is enough to just light attack weave. And that is the problem more than ability. Hell; people have complained about animation cancelling for years and still dont know that abilities still have a GCD that it doesnt change. Making the game easier wont help someone that dense

Drdeath20 · April 2020

It's hard to get to that level and maintain a job

To just simply light attack weave would probably only take most people less than an hour on a test dummy and watching some videos of other peoples parses.

Why i said weaving is something that takes almost all your free time up is bcz of bash weaving, especially on console. I can pull it off on some parts of my parse but to consistantly bash weave is just too hard for me. Some people get soo good at it that they are able to reliably do it during runs.

Tigerseye · April 2020

20 minutes on a target dummy

If we're talking LA weaving, it's not that it's hard to learn as such, or takes a long time to learn.

As long as you don't have a serious disability and don't mind getting RSI.

In fact, it's quite the reverse - it's incredibly simple to learn, but it's also annoying, immersion-breaking and gets in the way of reacting naturally to situations.

This isn't Strictly Come Dancing, we're not supposed to be doing the two-step...

A 2 yr old could learn to do it, but no one over that age should want to.

Tigerseye · April 2020

20 minutes on a target dummy

thorwyn wrote: »

In other words: it's a mindless activity.

It is as mindless as pressing the keys on the piano in the right oder.

The "right order" to press keys on a piano is very rarely alternating middle C, every single time, in between various other notes...

The problem with weaving is it's neither totally mindless, nor challenging.

If it was totally mindless, you could forget you were doing it entirely.

If it was challenging, it might be interesting.

Instead, it is boring and repetitive, but you still have to think about it, a bit, so, it's also distracting and breaks your immersion.

WilliamESO · April 2020

20 minutes on a target dummy

Very ezsy