Maintenance for the week of February 23:
· [COMPLETE] NA megaservers for maintenance – February 23, 4:00AM EST (9:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EST (17:00 UTC)
· [COMPLETE] EU megaservers for maintenance – February 23, 9:00 UTC (4:00AM EST) - 17:00 UTC (12:00PM EST)
· [COMPLETE] ESO Store and Account System for maintenance – February 23, 4:00AM EST (9:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EST (17:00 UTC)
· [COMPLETE] NA megaservers for maintenance – February 23, 4:00AM EST (9:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EST (17:00 UTC)
· [COMPLETE] EU megaservers for maintenance – February 23, 9:00 UTC (4:00AM EST) - 17:00 UTC (12:00PM EST)
· [COMPLETE] ESO Store and Account System for maintenance – February 23, 4:00AM EST (9:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EST (17:00 UTC)
The maintenance is complete, and the PTS is now available.
The "Nightblades nerf" whining logic makes absolute no sense to me.
-
Xologamer✭✭✭✭A year or two ago, NB is by far the most OP class, in both their mag and stam version, in both PvE and PvP.
People at the time asked for a NB nerf. The NBs main, of course, disagree, and ask to buff the other classes instead.
In the last 4 patches or so, ZOS added an AOE stun for all classes, gave stamSorc (which was one of the most boring class at the time) a mechanic similar to NB Grim focus, and now ZOS is going to give everyone the ability to go invisible through the new vampire skill line (which has already been possible with potion).
And now I keep stumble upon NB mains complaining their lack of "identity" and "NB receiving indirect nerfs" and "ZOS should buff NB soon, the class is like an underdog now".
I just don't get it. Seriously, what kind of logic is this.
PS: To the "NB mains" out there, the class is still hella strong, especially in PvP for both mag and stam version.
tha class is way behind others : necro is unkillable - i learend mgdk in 2days and im better than with my main(about 100ingame days) - templar gets buffs every patchs,...2 -
Iskiab✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »
I think the same. Non NBs are happy, till they get ganked by some broken Necro / Warden / Templar / Sorc / DK Vampire combo. Cost increase for non-vampire skill does not matter much if you are ganking some one. 2 - 3 skills and ppl are dead. So ppl right now say it is fine, but the moment the will get one-shoted on their 40K hp toons, they will beg ZOS on their knees to remove this vampire stealth passive. Also, if this happens something tells me that ZOS will nerf cloak too - becouse you know "standards"The issue as I see it, is twofold:
My first reaction was that giving every class on-demand invisibility and increased damage from stealth/invisibility just dilutes the NB class and further weakens it's identity.
After my initial irritation about that began to subside, I began to realize that this has the potential to cause some very serious issues in PVP. NBs have been "balanced" around Cloak because of player complaints about it, and their toolkit has suffered quite a bit because of it. During this time, most of the other classes have been receiving overall buffs.
With this vampirism change you have the possibility of Sorc/DK/Necro/Warden/Templar gankers firing off buffed versions of their already more powerful (relative to NBs) abilities. Just think about the skills you think are OP now, and imagine them buffed by the new Strike From Shadows passive, coming from out of nowhere. ZOS has made sure you can hear a Merciless proc or Soul Harvest coming from a mile away, and they are slow AF — the same cannot be said about other classes' abilities.
Obviously this is all conjecture, but I have a very strong feeling that everyone that thinks they like these changes will be singing a completely different tune once they actually go live. For instance, if you think Necro Grave Robber bombers are bad now, wait until they get their instant stun back, you can't see them coming, and their spell damage is buffed for 3-5 seconds after they appear.
I guess we'll have to wait and see.
[edit] One other thought I had was that maybe ZOS is setting the stage for some NB buffs with this by proactively neutering some of the [inevitable] complaints that would be sure to follow. (i.e. if all classes have easier access to invisibility, then ZOS can get away with bringing NBs in line with the other classes.) Or maybe that's just wishful thinking. In any case, I won't be holding my breath.
If invisibilty is what you need to one shot anyone on any class, then people would do it with insibility potions.
Suprise they don't.
No one said that "invisibility is all you need to one-shot anyone on any class," it's just one variable in this equation. The new lower barrier for entry, the significant length of duration, and the increased spell damage are other things you need to take into consideration. You zeroed in on the invisibility while ignoring everything else.
As far invisibility pots, I imagine people don't use them for the same reason they don't use detect pots: they want to use better potions, they don't want to buy/craft invisibility potions, or just out of laziness.
the lengh duration and invisibility might not be what you think.
It's seems that once you stop sprinting, you get out of invisibility (have trouble to find the video for more checking, if you have it post it please), meaning that you cannot prepare a burst.
Sounds more to be an escape tool than a attacking tool.
Edit : found the video -> go 9.35s
https://youtu.be/RiC-fdgDLZQ?t=569
He looses invisibilty when he stop running and it take about 3s to enter in it
Nice video. Being able to use both stats for invis will be awesome.Looking for any guildies I used to play with:
Havoc Warhammer - Alair
LoC EQ2 - Mayi and Iskiab
PRX and Tabula Rasa - Rift - Iskiab
Or anyone else I used to play games with in guilds I’ve forgotten1 -
Ragnaroek93✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭So what's good about Nb now? A class which isn't shining in anything or at least at one skill level isn't good, period. I'm doing better on literally every other class with the exception of my mag necro...I used to think that PvP was a tragedy, but now I realize, it's a comedy.1 -
HEBREWHAMMERRR✭✭✭✭✭MagNB has not been OP in PvP for quite some time. I’d probably say pre siphoning strikes nerf which was around...2+ years ago? Yes, they were top in PvE but in PvP mnb has pretty much remained the highest skill gap in the game to play effectively in cyrodill 1vX and open world.2
-
Jaimeh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
PS: To the "NB mains" out there, the class is still hella strong, especially in PvP for both mag and stam version.
That's patently not true; in PvE magblades are underperforming, while stamblades are extinct, and in PvP they are ok-ish only in the hands of few capable players. If you don't think people have a good reason to complain about the systematic deconstruction of the NB class, then you are just basically revelling in schadenfreude. The fact that they used to be OP does not justify the state they are now, and that's true for every class, but it's only NBs that have been taken hits patch after patch to the point where you don't see them at all anymore in the serious achievement-pushing groups, even though the class was tailored for bursty dps. If you want the game to thrive, you *should* care for variety, for all classes being strong and having something unique. NBs are in a very bad place as it is, and the 'whining', as you put it, is very much warranteed.
7 -
Aedaryl✭✭✭✭✭
✭
PS: To the "NB mains" out there, the class is still hella strong, especially in PvP for both mag and stam version.
That's patently not true; in PvE magblades are underperforming, while stamblades are extinct, and in PvP they are ok-ish only in the hands of few capable players. If you don't think people have a good reason to complain about the systematic deconstruction of the NB class, then you are just basically revelling in schadenfreude. The fact that they used to be OP does not justify the state they are now, and that's true for every class, but it's only NBs that have been taken hits patch after patch to the point where you don't see them at all anymore in the serious achievement-pushing groups, even though the class was tailored for bursty dps. If you want the game to thrive, you *should* care for variety, for all classes being strong and having something unique. NBs are in a very bad place as it is, and the 'whining', as you put it, is very much warranteed.
This is not a reason to ask to nerf something that people don't even tested or official aka the new vampire line because your class has been nerfed.Edited by Aedaryl on April 9, 2020 2:56PM0 -
Xvorg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭MashmalloMan wrote: »Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »
It is a buff for every class - if you are a vampire. NB will actually benefit the lest out of it.xXMeowMeowXx wrote: »All this doom and gloom, lol
The new vampy skill-line is a buff to NBs
The main issue is with the games performance. Without that, PvP is less then meh....
So, while you are not wrong by saying that "The new vampy skill-line is a buff to NBs" - but it is also a buff for literally every other class that will have more benefit than NB class. In short it is a small buff for NB, but a HUGE buff for every other class.
Oh and btw. NB is alredy worst class in game - both mag & stam...
That is a ridiculous statement. How in the world will the stealth class benefit less from a skill line that includes buffs to stealth playstyle? Get out of here.Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »did they ever say how long it takes of sprinting to go invisible? could be 5 secs plus
I heard 8. There are no specifics to what they’ve released. Just people who tried getting a look at tooltips from people’s videos. If it’s 8 it’s a gimmick and unworkable, 5 is niche, 3’s probably usable.
3 seconds according to:
https://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Vampire+SkillsWhile you are at Vampire Stage 4
Reduces the cost of Sprint by 50%.
If you continuously Sprint for 3 seconds you automatically become invisible.
3 Seconds... Damn, that actually makes this basically a free cloak available on demand for every class with like no cost, casting that consumes global cool-down and there is no need to slot it...
@iCaliban you're missing this part too ^
Stage 4 vamp + Sprinting for 3 seconds straight =/= "Free cloak, on demand, no cost and no casting that consumes GCD"
If you think NB's would ever unslot an actual on demand Cloak, then you're gravely mistaken. It doesn't require an ability to cast, it doesn't mean you're not wasting a GCD... you have to sprint for 3 seconds straight. Thats wasting 3 GCD's... We also don't understand how the passive works, does damage interupt it? Will the 3 seconds stay? The numbers are still a work in progress.
If base cloak is superior, then its not a nb nerf. The damage buffs to vamp, something a great many NBs run, disproportionately buffs them. Which is mostly a good thing.
Biggest problem for mag blade besides damage is burst healing. The vamp rework gives them both.
Do you realize that you are telling all the mageblades they must be vampire to play the class how it should be played? How different is that to what we said to DKs and Templars before Swift trair or RaT?
Being Vamp should be an option, not an obligation.Sarcasm is something too serious to be taken lightly
I was born with the wrong sign
In the wrong house
With the wrong ascendancy
I took the wrong road
That led to the wrong tendencies
I was in the wrong place at the wrong time
For the wrong reason and the wrong rhyme
On the wrong day of the wrong week
Used the wrong method with the wrong technique8 -
Xvorg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »
I think the same. Non NBs are happy, till they get ganked by some broken Necro / Warden / Templar / Sorc / DK Vampire combo. Cost increase for non-vampire skill does not matter much if you are ganking some one. 2 - 3 skills and ppl are dead. So ppl right now say it is fine, but the moment the will get one-shoted on their 40K hp toons, they will beg ZOS on their knees to remove this vampire stealth passive. Also, if this happens something tells me that ZOS will nerf cloak too - becouse you know "standards"The issue as I see it, is twofold:
My first reaction was that giving every class on-demand invisibility and increased damage from stealth/invisibility just dilutes the NB class and further weakens it's identity.
After my initial irritation about that began to subside, I began to realize that this has the potential to cause some very serious issues in PVP. NBs have been "balanced" around Cloak because of player complaints about it, and their toolkit has suffered quite a bit because of it. During this time, most of the other classes have been receiving overall buffs.
With this vampirism change you have the possibility of Sorc/DK/Necro/Warden/Templar gankers firing off buffed versions of their already more powerful (relative to NBs) abilities. Just think about the skills you think are OP now, and imagine them buffed by the new Strike From Shadows passive, coming from out of nowhere. ZOS has made sure you can hear a Merciless proc or Soul Harvest coming from a mile away, and they are slow AF — the same cannot be said about other classes' abilities.
Obviously this is all conjecture, but I have a very strong feeling that everyone that thinks they like these changes will be singing a completely different tune once they actually go live. For instance, if you think Necro Grave Robber bombers are bad now, wait until they get their instant stun back, you can't see them coming, and their spell damage is buffed for 3-5 seconds after they appear.
I guess we'll have to wait and see.
[edit] One other thought I had was that maybe ZOS is setting the stage for some NB buffs with this by proactively neutering some of the [inevitable] complaints that would be sure to follow. (i.e. if all classes have easier access to invisibility, then ZOS can get away with bringing NBs in line with the other classes.) Or maybe that's just wishful thinking. In any case, I won't be holding my breath.
My bet goes to Overload Sorcs... those ganks hurt a lot without invis.Sarcasm is something too serious to be taken lightly
I was born with the wrong sign
In the wrong house
With the wrong ascendancy
I took the wrong road
That led to the wrong tendencies
I was in the wrong place at the wrong time
For the wrong reason and the wrong rhyme
On the wrong day of the wrong week
Used the wrong method with the wrong technique0 -
Xvorg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »
I think the same. Non NBs are happy, till they get ganked by some broken Necro / Warden / Templar / Sorc / DK Vampire combo. Cost increase for non-vampire skill does not matter much if you are ganking some one. 2 - 3 skills and ppl are dead. So ppl right now say it is fine, but the moment the will get one-shoted on their 40K hp toons, they will beg ZOS on their knees to remove this vampire stealth passive. Also, if this happens something tells me that ZOS will nerf cloak too - becouse you know "standards"The issue as I see it, is twofold:
My first reaction was that giving every class on-demand invisibility and increased damage from stealth/invisibility just dilutes the NB class and further weakens it's identity.
After my initial irritation about that began to subside, I began to realize that this has the potential to cause some very serious issues in PVP. NBs have been "balanced" around Cloak because of player complaints about it, and their toolkit has suffered quite a bit because of it. During this time, most of the other classes have been receiving overall buffs.
With this vampirism change you have the possibility of Sorc/DK/Necro/Warden/Templar gankers firing off buffed versions of their already more powerful (relative to NBs) abilities. Just think about the skills you think are OP now, and imagine them buffed by the new Strike From Shadows passive, coming from out of nowhere. ZOS has made sure you can hear a Merciless proc or Soul Harvest coming from a mile away, and they are slow AF — the same cannot be said about other classes' abilities.
Obviously this is all conjecture, but I have a very strong feeling that everyone that thinks they like these changes will be singing a completely different tune once they actually go live. For instance, if you think Necro Grave Robber bombers are bad now, wait until they get their instant stun back, you can't see them coming, and their spell damage is buffed for 3-5 seconds after they appear.
I guess we'll have to wait and see.
[edit] One other thought I had was that maybe ZOS is setting the stage for some NB buffs with this by proactively neutering some of the [inevitable] complaints that would be sure to follow. (i.e. if all classes have easier access to invisibility, then ZOS can get away with bringing NBs in line with the other classes.) Or maybe that's just wishful thinking. In any case, I won't be holding my breath.
If invisibilty is what you need to one shot anyone on any class, then people would do it with insibility potions.
Suprise they don't.
Sorry, haven't you played against an Invis sorc with overload?
Pots are somehow balanced due to pot CD. Now that sorc will use the vamp sprint AND the pot.Sarcasm is something too serious to be taken lightly
I was born with the wrong sign
In the wrong house
With the wrong ascendancy
I took the wrong road
That led to the wrong tendencies
I was in the wrong place at the wrong time
For the wrong reason and the wrong rhyme
On the wrong day of the wrong week
Used the wrong method with the wrong technique0 -
Xvorg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
When I said "significant length of duration" I simply meant that the invisibility lasts as long as you are sprinting, and with 50% reduced sprint cost that will be quite a while. As far as difficulty lining up a combo, I don't see that as being much of an issue.Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »
I think the same. Non NBs are happy, till they get ganked by some broken Necro / Warden / Templar / Sorc / DK Vampire combo. Cost increase for non-vampire skill does not matter much if you are ganking some one. 2 - 3 skills and ppl are dead. So ppl right now say it is fine, but the moment the will get one-shoted on their 40K hp toons, they will beg ZOS on their knees to remove this vampire stealth passive. Also, if this happens something tells me that ZOS will nerf cloak too - becouse you know "standards"The issue as I see it, is twofold:
My first reaction was that giving every class on-demand invisibility and increased damage from stealth/invisibility just dilutes the NB class and further weakens it's identity.
After my initial irritation about that began to subside, I began to realize that this has the potential to cause some very serious issues in PVP. NBs have been "balanced" around Cloak because of player complaints about it, and their toolkit has suffered quite a bit because of it. During this time, most of the other classes have been receiving overall buffs.
With this vampirism change you have the possibility of Sorc/DK/Necro/Warden/Templar gankers firing off buffed versions of their already more powerful (relative to NBs) abilities. Just think about the skills you think are OP now, and imagine them buffed by the new Strike From Shadows passive, coming from out of nowhere. ZOS has made sure you can hear a Merciless proc or Soul Harvest coming from a mile away, and they are slow AF — the same cannot be said about other classes' abilities.
Obviously this is all conjecture, but I have a very strong feeling that everyone that thinks they like these changes will be singing a completely different tune once they actually go live. For instance, if you think Necro Grave Robber bombers are bad now, wait until they get their instant stun back, you can't see them coming, and their spell damage is buffed for 3-5 seconds after they appear.
I guess we'll have to wait and see.
[edit] One other thought I had was that maybe ZOS is setting the stage for some NB buffs with this by proactively neutering some of the [inevitable] complaints that would be sure to follow. (i.e. if all classes have easier access to invisibility, then ZOS can get away with bringing NBs in line with the other classes.) Or maybe that's just wishful thinking. In any case, I won't be holding my breath.
If invisibilty is what you need to one shot anyone on any class, then people would do it with insibility potions.
Suprise they don't.
No one said that "invisibility is all you need to one-shot anyone on any class," it's just one variable in this equation. The new lower barrier for entry, the significant length of duration, and the increased spell damage are other things you need to take into consideration. You zeroed in on the invisibility while ignoring everything else.
As far invisibility pots, I imagine people don't use them for the same reason they don't use detect pots: they want to use better potions, they don't want to buy/craft invisibility potions, or just out of laziness.
the lengh duration and invisibility might not be what you think.
It's seems that once you stop sprinting, you get out of invisibility (have trouble to find the video for more checking, if you have it post it please), meaning that you cannot prepare a burst.
Sounds more to be an escape tool than a attacking tool.
I think it will be useful both offensively and defensively.
Well it is an issue for attacking.
You cannot charge a heavy attack into a skill while being invisible like cloak.
You need to stop sprinting which reveals you THEN use an attack while you are not invisible anymore. That's not the same at all
Sorry, have you ever played NB? No NB ganks from cloak. They use Crouches. Cloak is just the skill they use to leave the place or to restart the figfht if the gank was not done properly.
Nevertheless it doesn't matter if you lose invis for a HA, since Vamps have a Pasive that increases its dmg after leaving invis. So you can run, stop and fire your nuke to do strong dmgSarcasm is something too serious to be taken lightly
I was born with the wrong sign
In the wrong house
With the wrong ascendancy
I took the wrong road
That led to the wrong tendencies
I was in the wrong place at the wrong time
For the wrong reason and the wrong rhyme
On the wrong day of the wrong week
Used the wrong method with the wrong technique0 -
Sanguinor2✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
Sorry, haven't you played against an Invis sorc with overload?
Pots are somehow balanced due to pot CD. Now that sorc will use the vamp sprint AND the pot.
I really dont understand this phobia of ganking Vamps? As soon as they start casting anything (or stop sprinting for that matter) they are no longer stealthed. How does that make for a useful gank?Politeness is respecting others.
Courage is doing what is fair.
Modesty is speaking of oneself without vanity.
Self control is keeping calm even when anger rises.
Sincerity is expressing oneself without concealing ones thoughts.
Honor is keeping ones word.3 -
WrathOfInnos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I don’t get it either. From a PVE perspective Nightblades aren’t in a bad place at all. Magblade is the highest ranged DPS, and falls only behind DK in the mag DPS ranking (as it should since DK is melee). Stamblade isn’t as good as Stamcro, but it’s 2nd or 3rd Stam DPS (typically just behind Stamplar, but I’ve seen some Stamblade parses beating Stamplar recently).2 -
John_Falstaff✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭WrathOfInnos wrote: »I don’t get it either. From a PVE perspective Nightblades aren’t in a bad place at all. Magblade is the highest ranged DPS, and falls only behind DK in the mag DPS ranking (as it should since DK is melee). Stamblade isn’t as good as Stamcro, but it’s 2nd or 3rd Stam DPS (typically just behind Stamplar, but I’ve seen some Stamblade parses beating Stamplar recently).
Irony is, if you want that highest dps, you can't play strictly ranged, because you want Incap/Harvest. Petsorc parses about the same (and the only magblade parses higher than sorc I see are with bash weaving, which makes range argument irrelevant), magplar maybe a bit less, but they bring a lot to the group in terms of buffs and synergies. So, don't see any advantage here. And on the flip side, with no self-buffs and debuffs in own toolkit and with no synergies on regular skills, NBs bring precious little to places like vSS portal and such. Sure, being able to stay in range a bit more than some classes helps, but by far not enough to justify such impoverished toolkit and lack of group support.0 -
iCaliban✭✭✭✭✭
✭MashmalloMan wrote: »Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »
It is a buff for every class - if you are a vampire. NB will actually benefit the lest out of it.xXMeowMeowXx wrote: »All this doom and gloom, lol
The new vampy skill-line is a buff to NBs
The main issue is with the games performance. Without that, PvP is less then meh....
So, while you are not wrong by saying that "The new vampy skill-line is a buff to NBs" - but it is also a buff for literally every other class that will have more benefit than NB class. In short it is a small buff for NB, but a HUGE buff for every other class.
Oh and btw. NB is alredy worst class in game - both mag & stam...
That is a ridiculous statement. How in the world will the stealth class benefit less from a skill line that includes buffs to stealth playstyle? Get out of here.Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »did they ever say how long it takes of sprinting to go invisible? could be 5 secs plus
I heard 8. There are no specifics to what they’ve released. Just people who tried getting a look at tooltips from people’s videos. If it’s 8 it’s a gimmick and unworkable, 5 is niche, 3’s probably usable.
3 seconds according to:
https://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Vampire+SkillsWhile you are at Vampire Stage 4
Reduces the cost of Sprint by 50%.
If you continuously Sprint for 3 seconds you automatically become invisible.
3 Seconds... Damn, that actually makes this basically a free cloak available on demand for every class with like no cost, casting that consumes global cool-down and there is no need to slot it...
@iCaliban you're missing this part too ^
Stage 4 vamp + Sprinting for 3 seconds straight =/= "Free cloak, on demand, no cost and no casting that consumes GCD"
If you think NB's would ever unslot an actual on demand Cloak, then you're gravely mistaken. It doesn't require an ability to cast, it doesn't mean you're not wasting a GCD... you have to sprint for 3 seconds straight. Thats wasting 3 GCD's... We also don't understand how the passive works, does damage interupt it? Will the 3 seconds stay? The numbers are still a work in progress.
If base cloak is superior, then its not a nb nerf. The damage buffs to vamp, something a great many NBs run, disproportionately buffs them. Which is mostly a good thing.
Biggest problem for mag blade besides damage is burst healing. The vamp rework gives them both.
Do you realize that you are telling all the mageblades they must be vampire to play the class how it should be played? How different is that to what we said to DKs and Templars before Swift trair or RaT?
Being Vamp should be an option, not an obligation.
Maybe. But this post is full of whining that they are buffing something nearly all nightblades use, which synergizes incredibly well with their toolkit and fills gaps in the existing kit.
1 -
John_Falstaff✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Maybe. But this post is full of whining that they are buffing something nearly all nightblades use, which synergizes incredibly well with their toolkit and fills gaps in the existing kit.
NBs don't need external crutch in the form of being undead to fill the gaps in existing kit. They need a proper kit instead, something all classes should have. Imagine being told that your class is doing awesomely if only you're wearing this single set and play in this single style, and otherwise you're nothing special.1 -
xaraan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I think the issue is losing some of the unique-ness of the class. Like giving some new skill line sorc streak, or the old version of dragon wings, etc.
Grim Focus was nerfed and then sorcs were given a version of it that was more like the pre-nerfed version, so it was a double whammy. Which is why I used the old version of dragon wing example.
Now, some of the complaints are just panic, it might not be as bad as some think. But NBs are not in the best spot right now. Only magicka NBs were strong in PvE (when OP referenced they used to be top in PvE) and that was b/c of the off heals more than just straight damage - this was a big deal when vAS was the main new trial. Not only did they nerf their off heals, but they once again almost offered the strong off heals while doing damage feature to sorcs with a change to crit surge on PTS until they tweaked it after it was pointed out.
So probably watching Grim Focus, Fear, nearly off-heals and now invisibility shared with other classes is probably getting pretty old to most NB mains.
I do think that being able to use invis at will from a skill without having vampire negatives is still a strong option and it won't hurt NBs that much. But I can see why they have gotten irritated. They do need a passover on the class to clean things up, polish some past changes, maybe tweak a couple abilities etc. I don't see anything wrong with the vampire ability though, maybe it needs a tweak, but it definitely fits the 'class'. (And now that people won't be playing vamps for just the passives and b/c they want to be a vamp, that will balance some fears out as well).-- @xaraan --
nightblade: Xaraan • templar: Xaraan-dar • dragon-knight: Xaraanosaurus • necromancer: Xaraan-qa • warden: Xaraanodon • sorcerer: Xaraan-ra
AD • NA • PC2 -
WrathOfInnos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭John_Falstaff wrote: »WrathOfInnos wrote: »I don’t get it either. From a PVE perspective Nightblades aren’t in a bad place at all. Magblade is the highest ranged DPS, and falls only behind DK in the mag DPS ranking (as it should since DK is melee). Stamblade isn’t as good as Stamcro, but it’s 2nd or 3rd Stam DPS (typically just behind Stamplar, but I’ve seen some Stamblade parses beating Stamplar recently).
Irony is, if you want that highest dps, you can't play strictly ranged, because you want Incap/Harvest. Petsorc parses about the same (and the only magblade parses higher than sorc I see are with bash weaving, which makes range argument irrelevant), magplar maybe a bit less, but they bring a lot to the group in terms of buffs and synergies. So, don't see any advantage here. And on the flip side, with no self-buffs and debuffs in own toolkit and with no synergies on regular skills, NBs bring precious little to places like vSS portal and such. Sure, being able to stay in range a bit more than some classes helps, but by far not enough to justify such impoverished toolkit and lack of group support.
@John_Falstaff Fair point about pure range, it doesn’t do much good in a lot of fights. I was referring mostly to trials like vAS where Magblade is dominating because magDK can’t stay on the boss through all mechanics (https://www.esologs.com/zone/rankings/7#boss=23&metric=bossdps).
I agree that Magblade is lacking group utility. They currently have the ability to wear master architect (at a personal ~6% DPS loss which makes them appear worse compared to classes in full DPS gear). They are one of the best DPS classes for fights like the Eternal Servant (mostly because Swallow Soul and Siphoning Attacks are great) but their buffs and debuffs are extremely limited (even using Debilitate for Minor Magickasteal has proven worse than just slotting Ele Drain, and Lotus Fan has proven to be a terrible way to keep Minor Vuln uptime).
Pet Sorc is at least a few k behind full-DPS Magblade on every trial fight I’ve seen.Edited by WrathOfInnos on April 9, 2020 5:54PM0 -
Jaimeh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
PS: To the "NB mains" out there, the class is still hella strong, especially in PvP for both mag and stam version.
That's patently not true; in PvE magblades are underperforming, while stamblades are extinct, and in PvP they are ok-ish only in the hands of few capable players. If you don't think people have a good reason to complain about the systematic deconstruction of the NB class, then you are just basically revelling in schadenfreude. The fact that they used to be OP does not justify the state they are now, and that's true for every class, but it's only NBs that have been taken hits patch after patch to the point where you don't see them at all anymore in the serious achievement-pushing groups, even though the class was tailored for bursty dps. If you want the game to thrive, you *should* care for variety, for all classes being strong and having something unique. NBs are in a very bad place as it is, and the 'whining', as you put it, is very much warranteed.
This is not a reason to ask to nerf something that people don't even tested or official aka the new vampire line because your class has been nerfed.
Did I mention anything about the new vampire line anywhere in my post? I merely pointed out the class is not in a good place right now, which you are completely ignoring in favour of your anti-NB tirade.0 -
fred4✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭
Indeed. NB's cloak and damage avoidance skills go hand in hand with a fundamentally squishy class. The tradeoff for having Cloak is that you do have to practice damage avoidance. The best players can still make that work. Some are merely one-hit wonders, wearing Titanborn and defiling their own health, before ganking. Many are finding it difficult, because NB damage and burst combos have been nerfed over the past two years.The big question is what are the advantages of the Nightblade class once the new vampire skills come?
Serious question.
I can look at every other class and point to something the offer--tanking skills, great healing line, streak, jabs, defile, purify...
I no longer see a class strength for nightblades.
That's the problem.
Giving every other class, originally designed to fight out in the open, better damage avoidance options than current Mist Form - already a strong skill - means those classes can have their cake and eat it. They get that on top of being tanky, where nightblades typically use it as their primary defense and they can't match the combination of tankiness AND high damage output of, say, a stam DK, stamden, stamcro or a magsorc. That is why this will be an indirect nerf to nightblades.
A lot is probably going to depend on cost. If the Mist toggle will be prohibitively expensive for stam classes, for example, that might mitigate the impact of these changes. If the invisibility is an easily broken once off feature that isn't continually reactivated, it will also be quite limited. Really it will suit the class already liable to use invisibility potions: Sorc. Streak, streak, streak, sprint, gone. In other words it will highly depend on the implementation, but I can't pretend I'm not worried.2 -
katorga✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭MashmalloMan wrote: »Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »
It is a buff for every class - if you are a vampire. NB will actually benefit the lest out of it.xXMeowMeowXx wrote: »All this doom and gloom, lol
The new vampy skill-line is a buff to NBs
The main issue is with the games performance. Without that, PvP is less then meh....
So, while you are not wrong by saying that "The new vampy skill-line is a buff to NBs" - but it is also a buff for literally every other class that will have more benefit than NB class. In short it is a small buff for NB, but a HUGE buff for every other class.
Oh and btw. NB is alredy worst class in game - both mag & stam...
That is a ridiculous statement. How in the world will the stealth class benefit less from a skill line that includes buffs to stealth playstyle? Get out of here.Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »did they ever say how long it takes of sprinting to go invisible? could be 5 secs plus
I heard 8. There are no specifics to what they’ve released. Just people who tried getting a look at tooltips from people’s videos. If it’s 8 it’s a gimmick and unworkable, 5 is niche, 3’s probably usable.
3 seconds according to:
https://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Vampire+SkillsWhile you are at Vampire Stage 4
Reduces the cost of Sprint by 50%.
If you continuously Sprint for 3 seconds you automatically become invisible.
3 Seconds... Damn, that actually makes this basically a free cloak available on demand for every class with like no cost, casting that consumes global cool-down and there is no need to slot it...
@iCaliban you're missing this part too ^
Stage 4 vamp + Sprinting for 3 seconds straight =/= "Free cloak, on demand, no cost and no casting that consumes GCD"
If you think NB's would ever unslot an actual on demand Cloak, then you're gravely mistaken. It doesn't require an ability to cast, it doesn't mean you're not wasting a GCD... you have to sprint for 3 seconds straight. Thats wasting 3 GCD's... We also don't understand how the passive works, does damage interupt it? Will the 3 seconds stay? The numbers are still a work in progress.
If base cloak is superior, then its not a nb nerf. The damage buffs to vamp, something a great many NBs run, disproportionately buffs them. Which is mostly a good thing.
Biggest problem for mag blade besides damage is burst healing. The vamp rework gives them both.
Do you realize that you are telling all the mageblades they must be vampire to play the class how it should be played? How different is that to what we said to DKs and Templars before Swift trair or RaT?
Being Vamp should be an option, not an obligation.
How many magicka classes over the years have had to use vamp for mobility or stun (until that got wrecked), to fill out their missing class kit? It is nothing new.Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »
I think the same. Non NBs are happy, till they get ganked by some broken Necro / Warden / Templar / Sorc / DK Vampire combo. Cost increase for non-vampire skill does not matter much if you are ganking some one. 2 - 3 skills and ppl are dead. So ppl right now say it is fine, but the moment the will get one-shoted on their 40K hp toons, they will beg ZOS on their knees to remove this vampire stealth passive. Also, if this happens something tells me that ZOS will nerf cloak too - becouse you know "standards"The issue as I see it, is twofold:
My first reaction was that giving every class on-demand invisibility and increased damage from stealth/invisibility just dilutes the NB class and further weakens it's identity.
After my initial irritation about that began to subside, I began to realize that this has the potential to cause some very serious issues in PVP. NBs have been "balanced" around Cloak because of player complaints about it, and their toolkit has suffered quite a bit because of it. During this time, most of the other classes have been receiving overall buffs.
With this vampirism change you have the possibility of Sorc/DK/Necro/Warden/Templar gankers firing off buffed versions of their already more powerful (relative to NBs) abilities. Just think about the skills you think are OP now, and imagine them buffed by the new Strike From Shadows passive, coming from out of nowhere. ZOS has made sure you can hear a Merciless proc or Soul Harvest coming from a mile away, and they are slow AF — the same cannot be said about other classes' abilities.
Obviously this is all conjecture, but I have a very strong feeling that everyone that thinks they like these changes will be singing a completely different tune once they actually go live. For instance, if you think Necro Grave Robber bombers are bad now, wait until they get their instant stun back, you can't see them coming, and their spell damage is buffed for 3-5 seconds after they appear.
I guess we'll have to wait and see.
[edit] One other thought I had was that maybe ZOS is setting the stage for some NB buffs with this by proactively neutering some of the [inevitable] complaints that would be sure to follow. (i.e. if all classes have easier access to invisibility, then ZOS can get away with bringing NBs in line with the other classes.) Or maybe that's just wishful thinking. In any case, I won't be holding my breath.
My bet goes to Overload Sorcs... those ganks hurt a lot without invis.
Ooh yeah. Sorc passives take some off of the cost penalty to being a vamp. Streak + unnatural movement.
0 -
Aedaryl✭✭✭✭✭
✭Sanguinor2 wrote: »
Sorry, haven't you played against an Invis sorc with overload?
Pots are somehow balanced due to pot CD. Now that sorc will use the vamp sprint AND the pot.
I really dont understand this phobia of ganking Vamps? As soon as they start casting anything (or stop sprinting for that matter) they are no longer stealthed. How does that make for a useful gank?
People still don't get it. The majority don't enen think about that. They just think "cloak is for everyone I need to cry as much as I can to nerf something that I don't even tested or is official yet" even if it's completely different than cloak with different uses.
I will try again :
When you are sprinting you cannot cast skills and when you stop sprinting you are no longer invisible. This is not a gank or offensive tool, but an escape one.1 -
Tommy_The_Gun✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
Sure, but you also don't have to slot any skill (+1 more bar space) and cast any skill and pay for any skill with resources.Sanguinor2 wrote: »
Sorry, haven't you played against an Invis sorc with overload?
Pots are somehow balanced due to pot CD. Now that sorc will use the vamp sprint AND the pot.
I really dont understand this phobia of ganking Vamps? As soon as they start casting anything (or stop sprinting for that matter) they are no longer stealthed. How does that make for a useful gank?
People still don't get it. The majority don't enen think about that. They just think "cloak is for everyone I need to cry as much as I can to nerf something that I don't even tested or is official yet" even if it's completely different than cloak with different uses.
I will try again :
When you are sprinting you cannot cast skills and when you stop sprinting you are no longer invisible. This is not a gank or offensive tool, but an escape one.
I think of it as if a cloak had 2.9 seconds cast time (so you would have to constantly re-cast and you could not cast anything else), but it was cost-free and instead it would VERY slowly drain your stamina, but also had a movement speed - boost build in.Edited by Tommy_The_Gun on April 10, 2020 9:13AM0 -
Aedaryl✭✭✭✭✭
✭Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »
Sure, but you also don't have to slot any skill (+1 more bar space) and cast any skill and pay for any skill with resources.Sanguinor2 wrote: »
Sorry, haven't you played against an Invis sorc with overload?
Pots are somehow balanced due to pot CD. Now that sorc will use the vamp sprint AND the pot.
I really dont understand this phobia of ganking Vamps? As soon as they start casting anything (or stop sprinting for that matter) they are no longer stealthed. How does that make for a useful gank?
People still don't get it. The majority don't enen think about that. They just think "cloak is for everyone I need to cry as much as I can to nerf something that I don't even tested or is official yet" even if it's completely different than cloak with different uses.
I will try again :
When you are sprinting you cannot cast skills and when you stop sprinting you are no longer invisible. This is not a gank or offensive tool, but an escape one.
I think of it as if a cloak had 2.9 seconds cast time (so you would have to constantly re-cast and you could not cast anything else), but it was cost-free and instead it would VERY slowly drain your stamina.
Omg please
This is nothing to do with cloak stop that.
Cloak allow you to react from the fight and evade most single target skills and take 3s where you can refresh your skills + opening with from sleath combo (Ha, stun, cast time from Incap being in invisible, ect).
UM doesn't allow any of this. This is not a 3s delayed cloak.
And it does cost a lot. Firstly the vampire drawback then from the time you are invisible your stamina regen is blocked because of sprint. It cost you the sprint cost (very cheap) + the stamina you don't get from your regen stat.
Unatural Mouvement will just allow you to escape when you have are already distanced your enemies.1 -
Langeston✭✭✭✭✭
✭
No, you're the one that doesn't get it.Sanguinor2 wrote: »
Sorry, haven't you played against an Invis sorc with overload?
Pots are somehow balanced due to pot CD. Now that sorc will use the vamp sprint AND the pot.
I really dont understand this phobia of ganking Vamps? As soon as they start casting anything (or stop sprinting for that matter) they are no longer stealthed. How does that make for a useful gank?
People still don't get it. The majority don't enen think about that. They just think "cloak is for everyone I need to cry as much as I can to nerf something that I don't even tested or is official yet" even if it's completely different than cloak with different uses.
I will try again :
When you are sprinting you cannot cast skills and when you stop sprinting you are no longer invisible. This is not a gank or offensive tool, but an escape one.
You keep making such a huge deal about the fact that NBs are able to get off an attack from cloak. Newsflash: once the element of surprise is gone, you're left with a class that's squishy AF, has subpar burst, & the worst healing in the game. The same is not going to be true for the Templars, DKs, Necros, Sorcs, and Wardens that fully embrace this new form of vampirism.
When I read about the changes, 2 specific cancerous scenarios immediately popped into my head, and neither of them required being able to get a single skill off before dropping out of invisibility.
It's clear that you haven't fully thought through the implications of these changes yet, but you'll figure it out sooner or later & when you do I don't think you're going to like them much. There's a lot more to this than just readily available invisibility.Edited by Langeston on April 10, 2020 10:47AM4 -
Tommy_The_Gun✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
On the contrary.Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »
Sure, but you also don't have to slot any skill (+1 more bar space) and cast any skill and pay for any skill with resources.Sanguinor2 wrote: »
Sorry, haven't you played against an Invis sorc with overload?
Pots are somehow balanced due to pot CD. Now that sorc will use the vamp sprint AND the pot.
I really dont understand this phobia of ganking Vamps? As soon as they start casting anything (or stop sprinting for that matter) they are no longer stealthed. How does that make for a useful gank?
People still don't get it. The majority don't enen think about that. They just think "cloak is for everyone I need to cry as much as I can to nerf something that I don't even tested or is official yet" even if it's completely different than cloak with different uses.
I will try again :
When you are sprinting you cannot cast skills and when you stop sprinting you are no longer invisible. This is not a gank or offensive tool, but an escape one.
I think of it as if a cloak had 2.9 seconds cast time (so you would have to constantly re-cast and you could not cast anything else), but it was cost-free and instead it would VERY slowly drain your stamina.
Omg please
This is nothing to do with cloak stop that.
It has a lot to do with Cloak. It is the only thing in game we can compare it to, to determine how strong the passive is...
(And no, we should not compare it to invisibility potions).Sanguinor2 wrote: »
Sorry, haven't you played against an Invis sorc with overload?
Pots are somehow balanced due to pot CD. Now that sorc will use the vamp sprint AND the pot.
I really dont understand this phobia of ganking Vamps? As soon as they start casting anything (or stop sprinting for that matter) they are no longer stealthed. How does that make for a useful gank?
People still don't get it. The majority don't enen think about that. They just think "cloak is for everyone I need to cry as much as I can to nerf something that I don't even tested or is official yet" even if it's completely different than cloak with different uses.
I will try again :
When you are sprinting you cannot cast skills and when you stop sprinting you are no longer invisible. This is not a gank or offensive tool, but an escape one.
No, you're the one that doesn't get it.Sanguinor2 wrote: »
Sorry, haven't you played against an Invis sorc with overload?
Pots are somehow balanced due to pot CD. Now that sorc will use the vamp sprint AND the pot.
I really dont understand this phobia of ganking Vamps? As soon as they start casting anything (or stop sprinting for that matter) they are no longer stealthed. How does that make for a useful gank?
People still don't get it. The majority don't enen think about that. They just think "cloak is for everyone I need to cry as much as I can to nerf something that I don't even tested or is official yet" even if it's completely different than cloak with different uses.
I will try again :
When you are sprinting you cannot cast skills and when you stop sprinting you are no longer invisible. This is not a gank or offensive tool, but an escape one.
No, you're the one that doesn't get it.
You keep making such a huge deal about the fact that NBs are able to get off an attack from cloak. Newsflash: once the element of surprise is gone, you're left with a class that's squishy AF, has subpar burst, & the worst healing in the game. The same is not going to be true for the Templars, DKs, Necros, Sorcs, and Wardens that fully embrace this new form of vampirism.
Yep. Also I don't think that increased cost of non-vamp skill will matter much for landing burst from stealth / invisibility, since you only need to land like 2- 4 skills at most.
Edited by Tommy_The_Gun on April 10, 2020 10:25AM0 -
Aedaryl✭✭✭✭✭
✭Sanguinor2 wrote: »
Sorry, haven't you played against an Invis sorc with overload?
Pots are somehow balanced due to pot CD. Now that sorc will use the vamp sprint AND the pot.
I really dont understand this phobia of ganking Vamps? As soon as they start casting anything (or stop sprinting for that matter) they are no longer stealthed. How does that make for a useful gank?
People still don't get it. The majority don't enen think about that. They just think "cloak is for everyone I need to cry as much as I can to nerf something that I don't even tested or is official yet" even if it's completely different than cloak with different uses.
I will try again :
When you are sprinting you cannot cast skills and when you stop sprinting you are no longer invisible. This is not a gank or offensive tool, but an escape one.
No, you're the one that doesn't get it.Sanguinor2 wrote: »
Sorry, haven't you played against an Invis sorc with overload?
Pots are somehow balanced due to pot CD. Now that sorc will use the vamp sprint AND the pot.
I really dont understand this phobia of ganking Vamps? As soon as they start casting anything (or stop sprinting for that matter) they are no longer stealthed. How does that make for a useful gank?
People still don't get it. The majority don't enen think about that. They just think "cloak is for everyone I need to cry as much as I can to nerf something that I don't even tested or is official yet" even if it's completely different than cloak with different uses.
I will try again :
When you are sprinting you cannot cast skills and when you stop sprinting you are no longer invisible. This is not a gank or offensive tool, but an escape one.
No, you're the one that doesn't get it.
You keep making such a huge deal about the fact that NBs are able to get off an attack from cloak. Newsflash: once the element of surprise is gone, you're left with a class that's squishy AF, has subpar burst, & the worst healing in the game. The same is not going to be true for the Templars, DKs, Necros, Sorcs, and Wardens that fully embrace this new form of vampirism.
When I read about the changes, 2 specific cancerous scenarios immediately popped into my head, and neither of them required being able to get a single skill off before dropping out of invisibility.
It's clear that you haven't fully thought through the implications of these changes yet, but you'll figure it out sooner or later & when you do I don't think you're going to like them much. There's a lot more to this than just readily available invisibility.
This is an escape passive, this has nothing to do with COMBAT.
You will not be invisible in a middle of fight at will like an NB while not being a NB.
You will be able to escape more reliably when before you was already trying to escape.
Can you please tell me scenarios where you think that this passive be do similar things than NB but better ?2 -
John_Falstaff✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭This is an escape passive, this has nothing to do with COMBAT.
You will not be invisible in a middle of fight at will like an NB while not being a NB.
You will be able to escape more reliably when before you was already trying to escape.
Can you please tell me scenarios where you think that this passive be do similar things than NB but better ?
From what I see, that's the primary use of cloak for NBs, that's the gist. Cloak's not much use in actual combat; you gank from stealth (but you can stealth without cloak), but you don't use cloak mid-fight for any meaningful purposes, other than to escape and reset the fight. Not much other practical use for it in combat, more so that if you don't use it to disengage, any funny look will pull you out of it. So NB cloak is primarily a reset tool, and that's what new vampire cloak is doing too, basically giving NB tool to other classes.1 -
Langeston✭✭✭✭✭
✭
You keep saying this, but you're wrong. Why do you think they also added the Strikes from the Shadows passive? In fact, if I ever used this on a non-NB toon, it would be utilized far more often for offense than defense.This is an escape passive, this has nothing to do with COMBAT.
Yes, I know.You will not be invisible in a middle of fight at will like an NB while not being a NB.
Yes, but if that's all you're going to use it for then you're not going to be using the skill to it's full potential.You will be able to escape more reliably when before you was already trying to escape.
Nope.🤫Can you please tell me scenarios where you think that this passive be do similar things than NB but better ?1 -
Aedaryl✭✭✭✭✭
✭
You keep saying this, but you're wrong. Why do you think they also added the Strikes from the Shadows passive? In fact, if I ever used this on a non-NB toon, it would be utilized far more often for offense than defense.This is an escape passive, this has nothing to do with COMBAT.
Yes, I know.You will not be invisible in a middle of fight at will like an NB while not being a NB.
Yes, but if that's all you're going to use it for then you're not going to be using the skill to it's full potential.You will be able to escape more reliably when before you was already trying to escape.
Nope.🤫Can you please tell me scenarios where you think that this passive be do similar things than NB but better ?
OK so you don't have any exemple to give where it would be OP while telling me I mess things.
Thats sound like you don't know one and just want it nerfed for no reasons.1
